Depression, Sex & Freemales

[skipair]

Oh, and please explain what you mean by the Peter Pan syndrome.

My response would be not wanting to take responsibility. In terms of male relationships with women it means men not wanting to use the energy it takes to win them.

It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently, the process of realizing I have no real duty to have things be a certain way, to not automatically try to fill people's expectations, to not be their care-taker. It's been releaving a lot of stress for me. :D

It's weird too, because my not caring about what other people want makes me happy. They see that I'm happy and this makes them happier than they'd ever be if I "tried" to make them happy. But can't think about that too much though, a dangerous road...

[skipair]

About the article, I don't think middle-aged depression has as much to do with "lifecycles" (if you know what I mean I don't feel like elaborating), as much as being emasculated and betaized on the home-turf battleground.

Of course, I would think that.

[XealotX]

Hello xealotx.

The real cause of the so called man shortage is that these masses of "fabulous" women have effectively priced themselves out of the market and the so called "Peter Pan" syndrome is simply the male reaction or adaptation to this, not the cause. In fact one could say that any society where men and women are contrived to be as equals will almost automatically have a shortage of men since female sexuality determines that a man who is merely her equal is an inferior man, and neither the man, the woman herself nor society as a whole can bullshit their way past this fact.

I came up with a very similar explanation as to why there is such a huge man shortage in my country (Panama), and this is perhaps true in many other Latin American countries. Do you also live in Latin America, or are you saying that this shortage is a global / universal thing?

Oh, and please explain what you mean by the Peter Pan syndrome.

Peter Pan syndrome is a bit of folk-psychology which has recently come into vogue for describing men seen to avoid marriage and other supposed milestones of adulthood in favor of a seemingly prolonged adolescence (i.e. video games, gadgets, hanging out with the guys, chasing casual sex, etc.). I've seen it cited, or rather blamed, in a few instances by women apparently frustrated with the lack of men willing to commit (emotional and financial suicide, as it were).

[XealotX]

Also, to answer the other part of your question, Shahrazad: I'm currently living in the US. And as far as I've heard Latin American were a lot happier with their men. Care to share your first hand perspective?

[Shahrazad]

xealotx,

And as far as I've heard Latin American were a lot happier with their men.

No.

Care to share your first hand perspective?

The perception is that there are five women for each man. This is because more women than men are highly educated, too many men are gay, and as if that were not bad enough, women here want to marry up, no matter what social class they are in. Men, otoh, will be happy to sleep with a pretty woman who is "inferior" to him.

[rebecca702]

skipair-

It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently, the process of realizing I have no real duty to have things be a certain way, to not automatically try to fill people's expectations, to not be their care-taker. It's been releaving a lot of stress for me. :D

I've been trying to do this with my social relationships, which are mostly just with my family. Seems to me that it's a battle against guilt. Our memes tell us we're evil if we don't return the "I love you" on the phone. Yesterday was my dad's birthday and I didn't call him. Partly because I think birthdays are meaningless and stupid, and if he's sad that's his problem - his attachment. Partly because I wanted to be "evil" and try to fight the guilt. All the guilt does is make us feel some sort of obligation to be a certain way, because it's "good" to be this way... this is the glue that holds families, marriages, societies together. And keeps everybody leading lives of quiet desperation.

It's weird too, because my not caring about what other people want makes me happy. They see that I'm happy and this makes them happier than they'd ever be if I "tried" to make them happy. But can't think about that too much though, a dangerous road...

Yes, that is the paradoxical thing. Why do you say it is a dangerous road? Because if you think about it too much, then you will be right back where you started (caring about that shit)?

[Jamesh]

Partly because I wanted to be "evil" and try to fight the guilt. All the guilt does is make us feel some sort of obligation to be a certain way, because it's "good" to be this way... this is the glue that holds families, marriages, societies together. And keeps everybody leading lives of quiet desperation.

and do not have any expectations to be happier if you abandon these things that hold society together.
If you do not become a "sage" whose ego becomes sated at times by the teaching of others...you will still be lost. The egolessness of the QRS is a fantasy for anyone who first needs to be taught to be that way - they just have brians that are more autistically inclined.

Stepping back is good, abandoning is reckless.

[skipair]

It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently, the process of realizing I have no real duty to have things be a certain way, to not automatically try to fill people's expectations, to not be their care-taker. It's been releaving a lot of stress for me. :D

I've been trying to do this with my social relationships, which are mostly just with my family. Seems to me that it's a battle against guilt. Our memes tell us we're evil if we don't return the "I love you" on the phone. Yesterday was my dad's birthday and I didn't call him. Partly because I think birthdays are meaningless and stupid, and if he's sad that's his problem - his attachment. Partly because I wanted to be "evil" and try to fight the guilt. All the guilt does is make us feel some sort of obligation to be a certain way, because it's "good" to be this way... this is the glue that holds families, marriages, societies together. And keeps everybody leading lives of quiet desperation.

Yeah, if a person settles on reason they should probably expect and be perfectly ok with others being unhappy about it from time to time. These others might not know it, but it's good for them. :)

S: It's weird too, because my not caring about what other people want makes me happy. They see that I'm happy and this makes them happier than they'd ever be if I "tried" to make them happy. But can't think about that too much though, a dangerous road...
R: Yes, that is the paradoxical thing. Why do you say it is a dangerous road? Because if you think about it too much, then you will be right back where you started (caring about that shit)?

Yeah! It's the "that itself" in action. That way you can release everything.

[rebecca702]

Yeah, if a person settles on reason they should probably expect and be perfectly ok with others being unhappy about it from time to time. These others might not know it, but it's good for them. :)

True! They will probably never be grateful for being unsettled or disturbed, but that's how it works. It's either be true to yourself or be accomplice to their delusional string-pulling. Insert music video here...

[skipair]

One thing that's helped me with guilt or whatever uncomfortable feeling is just to accept it, stay with it, and let it happen. Whenever I try to "fight" and stop these things I always lose. You can't put a cap on the flow of things without causing emotional repression, a tension that essentially shuts down happiness and clarity. Sometimes things hurt a little, and that's OK. The important thing is to not get freaked out about it. Then the baby returns.

Sounds like a movie title.

[rebecca702]

Maybe for a creepy horror flick... or a thrash metal band. Ha.

[skipair]

What else. I think the above acceptance of whatever is happening is a good technique for escaping hell, but other than that isn't anything special. It's a way to smooth out the tension and keep it from overloading experience. In other words it's skillfully responding to animal instincts. It doesn't create anything new for the future. For that I suppose some fight would be in order.

[Dan Rowden]

The best way to deal with feelings of guilt or emotional discomfort is to examine them and work out if they have any validity.

[rebecca702]

You mean I can't just write it all off as delusion and ignore it? Damn.

[Dan Rowden]

No, I'm afriad it doesn't work that way. You can only know it is delusion to begin with if you know its nature and why it arises. Not shortcuts here, bobdammit!

[skipair]

My experience is that it seems obvious how to recognize delusion, but I don't remember how it was that I came to know that.

Then there's the issue of stopping the delusion once it's recognized, and you stop it by not stopping it!

[Loki]

No, I'm afriad it doesn't work that way. You can only know it is delusion to begin with if you know its nature and why it arises. Not shortcuts here, bobdammit!

How can I know the nature of a thought? And isn't the reason thoughts arise an area for evolutionary psychology?

Are you sure Dan that you're not trying to do a job that the scientists could do a lot better?

[Dan Rowden]

It's possible to think about the nature of certain types of thought such as guilt. I don't see why you think it isn't. As for evolutionary psychology - I have no interest in it, mostly because it is entirely speculative. It's speculations are ultimately worthless for the sake of personal, philosophical development. Firstly, because they can't be verified, even if they superficially make sense; secondly, it doesn't have a wisdom agenda and therefore looks at the "value" of thoughts or behaviors within what is really an ego-based framework. It's easy to see the value for humans in all sorts of delusional thinking from within that framework, but it doesn't have anything to do with what is actually true or necessary.

People have the naive, even ridiculous view that if we evolved with certain psychological traits they must be good for us, or valuable in some way. Things just don't work that way.

[Shahrazad]

Dan, I don't think of guilt as either good or bad -- it just is. Guilt is useful to me in many ways, and a burden in other ways. IMO, the benefit seems to outweigh the costs, so I doubt I'll be getting rid of it any time soon.

[Dan Rowden]

Guilt is delusional and its supposed benefits can easily be replaces by a simple, rational mindset. I'll come back and explain this further.

[rebecca702]

I am very interested in the topic of guilt because it is (unfortunately) a part of my everyday life all too often. I realize that pride can be the other end of the pendulum and that the ego can indulge in one while seeming to the individual that it is the opposite.

Guilt is useful to me in many ways, and a burden in other ways. IMO, the benefit seems to outweigh the costs, so I doubt I'll be getting rid of it any time soon.

I am somewhat baffled by the idea that guilt could be useful. I'm curious what Shaz means here - benefits? Perhaps she is talking about something more akin to conscience?

[Shahrazad]

Rebecca,

Perhaps she is talking about something more akin to conscience?

I believe guilt is akin to conscience, yes.

[divine focus]

I am very interested in the topic of guilt because it is (unfortunately) a part of my everyday life all too often. I realize that pride can be the other end of the pendulum and that the ego can indulge in one while seeming to the individual that it is the opposite.

Guilt is the consequence of comparative judgment, as also is false pride. When there is no separation, no "other," there is no comparison.

Shah,

I believe guilt is akin to conscience, yes.

You may trust intuition and function fine without guilt. If conscience is knowing what is right or wrong, knowledge of the effects of your choices is a more than capable substitute.

[mansman]

In a mind not taken in by the illusion of "free will" how can guilt manifest?
Can you imagine a robot experiencing guilt? Of course not.

Self-blame, what is guilt besides self blame?

Who is "there" to blame, anyhow?

Are "you" not changing into "new you" with every new moment?

If "you" indeed exist within some moment of duration in time, what of you remains as that moment approaches and finally reaches t=zero?

How can this be!

Isnt the feeling that we "could have acted otherwise" merely that, merely a "feeling"?

Arent all the causes of anything that may happen to you in the following moment already present, set and decided in the previous moment?

Decided by Nature, mindless Nature.

(go back to the top, repeat until understood, but only if you are indeed caused to:)

Self-improvement requires not guilt feelings, though it can take years to be totally rid of them once properly understood.
Neither does understanding one has missed the mark.

Have you found this helpful?
M

[Shahrazad]

mansman,

I don't often feel like I'm deceived by the illusion of free will, but there must be something there because I do feel some guilt. Point well taken.