End of Suffering?

[maestro]

In my experimentation in the past few weeks, I have seen that so called mental suffering can be eliminated completely through stopping negative imagination and negative emotions, in a ridiculously simple way.

All you need is self observation and when you feel any of these two just relaxing your facial muscles does the trick of stopping them. Repeating this for a few days significantly weakens the negative imagination and emotions. This works for anything from despair, depression, anxiety, pride etc. Essentially it is impossible to have any negative emotion with the body relaxed.

Thus if you want to get rid of all these troublesome mental states just relax your facial muscles.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

If anyone finds anything fishy about this suggestion, they're just jealous they didn't think of it first.

[samadhi]

maestro,

All you need is self observation and when you feel any of these two just relaxing your facial muscles does the trick of stopping them.

Your suggestion is about as helpful as the advice, "don't worry, everything's fine." Which is great as long as everything is fine. Tell us how effective your pablum is when you come down with cancer, okay? Until then, stow it.

[maestro]

If anyone finds anything fishy about this suggestion, they're just jealous they didn't think of it first.

Nothing fishy about it one can try and see the results for themselves.

Your suggestion is about as helpful as the advice, "don't worry, everything's fine." Which is great as long as everything is fine. Tell us how effective your pablum is when you come down with cancer, okay? Until then, stow it.

I know many people do not want to get rid of negative emotions and negative imagination, but once you figure out that these two are completely useless (irrespective of circumstances) then you naturally want to eliminate them.

[brokenhead]

samadhi wrote:

Your suggestion is about as helpful as the advice, "don't worry, everything's fine." Which is great as long as everything is fine. Tell us how effective your pablum is when you come down with cancer, okay? Until then, stow it.

I know many people do not want to get rid of negative emotions and negative imagination, but once you figure out that these two are completely useless (irrespective of circumstances) then you naturally want to eliminate them.

maestro didn't say it was a panacea, Sam. If a technique as simple as this works for him, why not try it? Practicing it now will make it second nature so that when you do come down with cancer, you have an extra tool to work with. And who knows? Techniques like this may very well go some way towards preventing cancer in the first place. Getting rid of a negative equates to a positive, no?

[samadhi]

maestro,

I am not talking against positive thinking. Think as positively as you want. But if that's your message, Norman Vincent Peale beat you to it by about 56 years.

I am talking about offering "don't worry, be happy" as an end of suffering. At least Peale wasn't that naive.



broken,

maestro didn't say it was a panacea, Sam.

The topic heading says otherwise.

If a technique as simple as this works for him, why not try it? Practicing it now will make it second nature so that when you do come down with cancer, you have an extra tool to work with. And who knows? Techniques like this may very well go some way towards preventing cancer in the first place. Getting rid of a negative equates to a positive, no?

If it's just positive thinking, like I said, Norman Vincent Peale along with a few hundred others, beat him to it. Why push positive thinking as the end of suffering? Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

[maestro]

I am not talking against positive thinking. Think as positively as you want. But if that's your message, Norman Vincent Peale beat you to it by about 56 years.

It is not about thinking. Here the body is used to weaken the process (habit) of negative imagination and thinking and thereby eliminating it. There is no injunction to think cheerful optimistic thoughts.

[Carl G]

Sam wrote:

Maestro: All you need is self observation and when you feel any of these two just relaxing your facial muscles does the trick of stopping them.

Your suggestion is about as helpful as the advice, "don't worry, everything's fine."

Not true. One is an action to remedy the situation, the other an attitude to deny it. Quite different.

Which is great as long as everything is fine.

You are referring to "don't worry..." which is what you said, not Maestro. Strawman tactic. In fact Maestro's suggestion was to be used specifically when things were not fine, hence the "when you feel any of these two [negative imagination or negative emotion]..."

Tell us how effective your pablum is when you come down with cancer, okay?

There are hospitals in China where the practice of relaxation techniques, in the form of Tai Chi, is responsible for helping people put their cancers into remission.

Until then, stow it.

That's an awfully negative reaction. I suggest relaxing your facial muscles..

I am not talking against positive thinking. Think as positively as you want. But if that's your message, Norman Vincent Peale beat you to it by about 56 years.

That wasn't his message.

I am talking about offering "don't worry, be happy" as an end of suffering. At least Peale wasn't that naive.

No, but it appear you may be, from the faulty analysis and jump to conclusion, on your part.

brokenhead: maestro didn't say it was a panacea, Sam.

The topic heading says otherwise.

Wrong, Sam. The topic heading says nothing. It asks a question.

If it's just positive thinking, like I said, Norman Vincent Peale along with a few hundred others, beat him to it. Why push positive thinking as the end of suffering? Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

Now you are flirting with blockheadedness. Again, doing something proactive is not the same as mere positive thinking.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

maestro,

Nothing fishy about it one can try and see the results for themselves.

What about the part where you said: "essentially it is impossible to have any negative emotion with the body relaxed"?

Have you never, ever, ever met anyone with clinical depression? You know, those people who never move a muscle all day long, and have nothing but negative emotions.

[Carl G]

Are they consciously relaxing, or merely inert?

[Alex Jacob]

It was Divine Focus who mentioned a woman with an odd tactic to deal with the dead-end road of unhappiness many people experience at one time or another. It was a technique that employed a 'turnaround'. You submit the core reason of your unhappiness to a series of questions, and it seems you take the rug out from under the very 'sound reasoning' for your unhappy state. I tried it a number of times and discovered that I didn't really have good enough reasons to be unhappy (about whatever...)

"Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?"

I have wondered about this myself. Sometimes I have thought that we invent very profound reasons---good, sensible, weighty, eloquent!---to support our suffering, to prop it up.

But what was it? 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'.

'Positive thinking' is a sort of philistine endeavor, and is so typically American! There is something crass about the reductions of this whole 'movement'. And yet, there is some soundness to the doctrines. It is basically like optimism as a life-strategy versus pessimism.

[maestro]

Have you never, ever, ever met anyone with clinical depression? You know, those people who never move a muscle all day long, and have nothing but negative emotions.

I have been very very close to people with depression, but they seem sad and glum, they do not seem relaxed at all, on the contrary there is some low lying morbid tension there.

But then again, I can only vouch for my own experiments. I cannot sustain any negative feeling with a relaxed countenance. Building upon the hypothesis that humans are similar I asked others to try out and see whether it is true for them or not.

[maestro]

Carl, if you recall Gurdjieffian terminology, there is something called the formatory apparatus. Samadhi seems to use this a lot.

[brokenhead]

If it's just positive thinking, like I said, Norman Vincent Peale along with a few hundred others, beat him to it. Why push positive thinking as the end of suffering? Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

Then I guess we should try negative thinking. Seems to work for some people.

[maestro]

In fact rather than the whole face, focus on relaxing the muscles around the eye. This is where most of the tension is accumulated.

Incredibly, it is like an off switch (for -ve imagination and emotion), however it turns on after a while so you have to turn if off again. With repetition it stays in the off position longer and longer.

[divine focus]

It was Divine Focus who mentioned a woman with an odd tactic to deal with the dead-end road of unhappiness many people experience at one time or another. It was a technique that employed a 'turnaround'. You submit the core reason of your unhappiness to a series of questions, and it seems you take the rug out from under the very 'sound reasoning' for your unhappy state. I tried it a number of times and discovered that I didn't really have good enough reasons to be unhappy (about whatever...)

Nope, not me. If it was Byron Kate and her "Work," that was samadhi. The turnaround is useful, 'cause it's all about you.

"Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?"

I have wondered about this myself. Sometimes I have thought that we invent very profound reasons---good, sensible, weighty, eloquent!---to support our suffering, to prop it up.

But what was it? 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'.

'Positive thinking' is a sort of philistine endeavor, and is so typically American! There is something crass about the reductions of this whole 'movement'. And yet, there is some soundness to the doctrines. It is basically like optimism as a life-strategy versus pessimism.

It's not actually the thinking that is valuable, or the forcing of thoughts into "positive" expressions, but the free movement of attention regardless of the thoughts. When you realize you have a choice where you put your attention and that your thoughts can't actually limit your freedom in themselves, that is the end of suffering--or more precisely, anguish. Suffering in terms of pain can't really muscle out enjoyment.

Freedom itself produces "positive thinking," effortlessly. The power, of course, is not in the thoughts.

[mikiel]

Interesting thread, Inagreement with divine focus' last post.Previous to that, good cotrast between "positive thinking" and an active relaxation discipline. Computer now over-writing... a pain in the ass, but, tho "suffering" is universal, awakening is transcendence of the illusion of the sufferer. So its just sensation. Nothing to get personally bent about. ...Which addresses the semantics of that issue.
Alex said, "But what was it? 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'. "

I'd differ just a little, as above.
Pain is just sensation. The "Who" feeling the pain is the illusion.
Why do some yogis sit on a bed of nails? Because they have transcended caring about the pain, but they still have enough ego to want to demonstrate this "siddhi"... "mind over matter" in the West... still obviously an ego trip.

About relaxation: My "first rule of meditation" (as a teacher) is,"get as comfortable as possible (short of lying down, which tents to induce sleep) and relax the whole body as deeply as you can, whether methodically, a part at a time or just let go of all tension as a "gestalt" intention for the body.

But that is just the beginning. Then most start struggling with the chattering mind. Next rule: Don't struggle, just observe in a detached way with no intent to stop or change the content of awareness. Just BE the One Who is aware. This is the seat (throne, actually) of consciousness, not the content floating around in it.

Be Awareness. Be The Witness. We are not the content, be it personal dramas, sensations (even pain), concepts/cogitations... inner monologues or dialogues with mental "others."

My "Meditation" page... again:

http://www.consciousunity.org/med.htm

Thanks for the interesting thread.
mikiel

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I have been very very close to people with depression, but they seem sad and glum, they do not seem relaxed at all, on the contrary there is some low lying morbid tension there.

In fact rather than the whole face, focus on relaxing the muscles around the eye. This is where most of the tension is accumulated.

Agreed. Although the picture is a bit more complex and varied in my experience. The body acts like a memory bank for emotions in the form of (amongst other things) cramped muscles or muscle groups. The face with its complex muscle machinery geared toward communication is one obvious area but there are others especially lower back and various muscles in the pelvis area, it depends on the type of emotion or memory that is dealt with. Some people can have a grin or smile stuck on the face that is really not much different than a sad or blank face a depressive person might have, although it's more successful in social interactions :)

Removing the tensions with exercise, meditations, medications or drugs are like temporary measures and I see them more as pointers to discover that you have (body) memory you didn't know was there. Tracing it back to behavioral and thought patterns becomes then a possible start to trace the root of suffering. The other way around can happen to: if you stumble on the root, one can notice all kinds of releases of tension over time now the patterns are not being fed anymore.

Then again, we're not after the end of tension here, but the end of suffering. This topic is great therefore to raise the possibility of tensions one didn't know were there, just like there could be immense suffering not experienced as such. It doesn't make it non-existent.

[Relo]

If anyone finds anything fishy about this suggestion, they're just jealous they didn't think of it first.

Lol

This can also be easily referred to repressing negative thoughts to your sub conscious which is later worked out when you sleep or some type of positive workout that suits you best.

[Peter L]

maestro,

All you need is self observation and when you feel any of these two just relaxing your facial muscles does the trick of stopping them.

What if that's the problem in the first place?

I know many people do not want to get rid of negative emotions and negative imagination, but once you figure out that these two are completely useless (irrespective of circumstances) then you naturally want to eliminate them.

Why not - what possible purpose could it serve?


Sam,

Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

If it worked-out that way, then yes.


Carl,

Not true. One is an action to remedy the situation, the other an attitude to deny it. Quite different.

Same thing.

Again, doing something proactive is not the same as mere positive thinking.

One could do something proactive by engaging in positive thinking. Positive thinking could also be in the same group as the technique maestro put forth.

[maestro]

What if that's the problem in the first place?

Self observation is responsible for negative emotions and imagination?

[samadhi]

Carl,

maestro: All you need is self observation and when you feel any of these two just relaxing your facial muscles does the trick of stopping them.

sam: Your suggestion is about as helpful as the advice, "don't worry, everything's fine."

Carl: Not true. One is an action to remedy the situation, the other an attitude to deny it. Quite different.

Yeah, relax your facial muscles, everything's fine. Quite different indeed.

sam: Which is great as long as everything is fine.

Carl: You are referring to "don't worry..." which is what you said, not Maestro. Strawman tactic. In fact Maestro's suggestion was to be used specifically when things were not fine, hence the "when you feel any of these two [negative imagination or negative emotion]..."

Like I said, relax your facial muscles, everything's fine, even if it's not. A bromide.

sam: Tell us how effective your pablum is when you come down with cancer, okay?

Carl: There are hospitals in China where the practice of relaxation techniques, in the form of Tai Chi, is responsible for helping people put their cancers into remission.

I have nothing against relaxation techniques. Just don't say the end of suffering is about relaxation techniques.

sam: Until then, stow it.

Carl: That's an awfully negative reaction. I suggest relaxing your facial muscles.

lol.

sam: I am not talking against positive thinking. Think as positively as you want. But if that's your message, Norman Vincent Peale beat you to it by about 56 years.

Carl: That wasn't his message.

See above.

sam: I am talking about offering "don't worry, be happy" as an end of suffering. At least Peale wasn't that naive.

Carl: No, but it appear you may be, from the faulty analysis and jump to conclusion, on your part.

You want to gloss over the implications. I choose to deal with them directly. Sorry if that upsets you.

brokenhead: maestro didn't say it was a panacea, Sam.

sam: The topic heading says otherwise.

Carl: Wrong, Sam. The topic heading says nothing. It asks a question.

And supplies the answer.

sam: If it's just positive thinking, like I said, Norman Vincent Peale along with a few hundred others, beat him to it. Why push positive thinking as the end of suffering? Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

Carl: Now you are flirting with blockheadedness. Again, doing something proactive is not the same as mere positive thinking.

Right. Control your facial expression, end suffering. How could I have missed it?

[Steven Coyle]

...

[samadhi]

maestro,

sam: I am not talking against positive thinking. Think as positively as you want. But if that's your message, Norman Vincent Peale beat you to it by about 56 years.

maestro: It is not about thinking. Here the body is used to weaken the process (habit) of negative imagination and thinking and thereby eliminating it. There is no injunction to think cheerful optimistic thoughts.

Oh, I see. It's about controlling your facial expression. How very new age of you.



broken,

sam: If it's just positive thinking, like I said, Norman Vincent Peale along with a few hundred others, beat him to it. Why push positive thinking as the end of suffering? Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

broken: Then I guess we should try negative thinking. Seems to work for some people.

Like I said, I have nothing against positive thinking. But if you think end suffering is about positive thinking, you are being naive. When the Buddha taught about the Eight-fold Path, the message really wasn't, "don't worry, be happy."



Alex,

It was Divine Focus who mentioned a woman with an odd tactic to deal with the dead-end road of unhappiness many people experience at one time or another. It was a technique that employed a 'turnaround'. You submit the core reason of your unhappiness to a series of questions, and it seems you take the rug out from under the very 'sound reasoning' for your unhappy state. I tried it a number of times and discovered that I didn't really have good enough reasons to be unhappy (about whatever...)

Yeah, that was Byron Katie. And the message isn't about positive thinking. It is about inquring into your present thinking. You don't avoid anything but bring what is unconscious into consciousness.

sam: Do you really think that ending suffering comes down to positive thinking?

Alex: I have wondered about this myself. Sometimes I have thought that we invent very profound reasons---good, sensible, weighty, eloquent!---to support our suffering, to prop it up.

The point isn't to contrast the positive thinking with the negative. Think as postively as you want. It doesn't mean controlling your thoughts is what's important. Katie's point is to become conscious of them, not to control them.

But what was it? 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'.

Postive thinking and negative thinking are inevitable. Just become aware of them.

'Positive thinking' is a sort of philistine endeavor, and is so typically American! There is something crass about the reductions of this whole 'movement'. And yet, there is some soundness to the doctrines. It is basically like optimism as a life-strategy versus pessimism.

Of course. No one is saying, don't be optimistic. Just don't mistake optimism for the end of suffering.

[maestro]

Oh, I see. It's about controlling your facial expression. How very new age of you.

Not controlling the facial expression but relaxing the face. As I noted later:

In fact rather than the whole face, focus on relaxing the muscles around the eye. This is where most of the tension is accumulated.

Incredibly, it is like an off switch (for -ve imagination and emotion), however it turns on after a while so you have to turn if off again. With repetition it stays in the off position longer and longer.

It is very simplistic but incredibly it does work like an off switch, for these two. Why not try it and see whether it works for you.