Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Jacob, perhaps it would be interesting to experiment with the suggestion Dan made, to attempt to condense your writings in a few sentences only? You call my writing cryptic, unsubstantial, incomplete and 'holding back' a lot. But I do make a habit to condense a lot of stuff in a few words, preferable simple language too. To me the ability to do just that, to cut away is advanced.
As I said, I do not see their path as about freedom and free-thinking but about building a home in conditioned, cookie-cut, theological dungeons. Though it is represented as a path of freedom and growth, it looks to me that it is about shutting down. In your case, it seems to me, you can't or won't really state it as you genuinely see it.
It's really simple Alex, "their" path seems to me the path of all ages. There's nothing exclusive or unique about it, only snowed under most of the times. Once in a while it pops up like weed (the 'kingdom of god is like a mustard seed". It's only a contemporary manifestation you see here, imperfect as it might be. It always seems to come in crooked ways?
I wish to completely distinguish myself from them, you, any of you-plural, and to maintain complete spiritual, intellectual, psychic, moral, ethical, and personal freedom. That is the most valuable thing any human being has and it is the essential thing, in truth, that comes under assault in our world.
Growing spurts, Alex. It's very important until it stops being important. Your non-conformity is largely illusion but without it you probably wouldn't develop enough to grow some real thought.
Unfortunately, I read much 'on these pages' that is a losing of grounding, and that is what I write about.
In a way, this is true. Lifted from the Earth while at the same time cast from Heaven? That's the true middle way.
An individual, more often than not male, is 'called' to the path of shamanizing through upheaval, certain ominous events, a great disturbance in the psyche, powerful dreams, visitations that come from both the inside and the outside, and a 'conspiracy' of events that force him to embark on the shamanizing path.
Again, this is what was meant with the statement about you confining your understanding to the distance of your imagination. Just one sentence from David encapsulates all what you're trying to say and explain here. It needs no more tuning and embellishment: you are dealing with spirituality through opinion and imagination (henids?) and haven't started seriously on reason yet.
But to make a long story short, these fellows allowed themselves to get captured [if you will permit me to say it that way, will you?] by 'possessive ancestral forces' and whereas the core model, the core need, for freedom and growth is clearly there, they begin to shut themselves down, and call on other to do the same, but all in the name of growth, etc.
I wish you could cut a bit more short. Sometimes I fear you have some disease that forces you to talk, to write, feverishly without stopping. The whole Internet becoming the mirror of your thinking. I even wonder if it's healthy for you and a banning, if it ever would happen will be in that spirit, I can assure you.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Xunzi wrote:(chapter 1) The learning of the noble person enters his ear, is stored in his mind, spreads through his four limbs, and is made visible in his activity and his tranquillity. In his smallest word, in his slightest movement, in everything, he may be taken as a model and a standard. The learning of the lesser man enters his ear and comes out his mouth. With only four inches between ear and mouth, how can he possess it long enough to beautify a seven-foot [Chinese "foot" is smaller than a Western "foot"] body? In antiquity, learning was carried on for the sake of one's self; today learning is carried on for the sake of others. The learning of the noble person is for the sake of beautifying himself; the learning of the lesser man is offering bird and beast [to win attention from others]. Thus to proffer information when you have not been asked for it is called officiousness; to proffer information on two questions when you have only been asked about one is garrulity. Officiousness is to be condemned, so too is garrulity. The noble person is like an echo.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Diebert Diebert Diebert, I really expected different from you!

'Growing spurts until you develop real thought'. And now you too use the term 'henid', but the fact is you just don't like my opinions.

No worries. My presence is a sort of invasion, I know that, you know that. A banning might have occured but not as medicine for me, but to keep me from saying the things I say.

I leave y'all with your "path of all ages".

;-)
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David Quinn
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by David Quinn »

Dan Rowden wrote:
Alex wrote:I could go on,[....]
No, please don't - because I'd have to ban you just on the basis of the threat that you might.

Say something meaningful in 2 sentences or I will ban you for the same reason that Laird got banned.
Just for the record, I would disagree with any attempt to ban Alex. I don't consider Alex to be a troll in the way that Laird was.

For Laird, the sole purpose of thought is to think up excuses for not doing anything. Alex, by contrast, is definitely excited by something profound, even though he can't really clarify what it is, not how it should be approached - only that it shouldn't be approached methodically and directly. As such, he represents a legitimate challenge to the forum.

Agreed, it would help if he wasn't so verbose. But then, that would require him to be more methodical and direct.

-
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

David, you are my HERO! You have always stood by me through thick and thin! (*Snif, tearing up*). I remember back in the early days, when the Henids had cast me up onto your shores, all covered with female slime, you said (*choke!*) 'I see signs of masculine thinking in Alex!' (*bawl, sob, sniffle!*) I'll never forget this, NEVER! (But I've already changed my signature line...this is a problem...an issue of pride).

I think we oughtta ban DAN! And that traitor Diebert!That...that...con-artist! If I were an innocent girl I'm sure he would have stolen my treasured locket along with my 'virtue'!

"Alex, by contrast, is definitely excited by something profound, even though he can't really clarify what it is, not how it should be approached - only that it shouldn't be approached methodically and directly. As such, he represents a legitimate challenge to the forum."

Here's the deal, comarade. There are some people who develop an extremely directed focus, say like in their meditation practice, or whatever practice they use to 'make contact with God', get clear, get rational (however they define it). Every focus brings its results, that's how I see things. But each tradition has very different focuses. For example, in religious Judaism the focus is Mitzvah, Study and Prayer. In a yoga practice it might be regular and profound meditation, association with other yogis, etc. For others, maybe the most relevant thing, the thing that gives the most progress, could be sitting around chanting Hare Krishna. Who is the final arbiter of what is 'best'?

Those who have sought are usually given clues or answers. I have sought, and I have 'found', and what I am instructed to do is: [deleted]. There is this thing that I am called to do, and I am doing it! Did you, comrade, ever stop to consider that? That maybe I am doing exactly what I am called to do?

It might help you to think of yourselves like some heavy, solidified, stone statues all covered with moss, and to think of me like Tinkerbell!, I just flit about according to the whims of the Presiding Spirit, a little powerhouse of energy and light! 'Just a little bit of leavening leavens the whole lump', I am fond of saying.
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“Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? / Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: / Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”
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Jason
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:Who is the final arbiter of what is 'best'?
Have you got an answer to that question?
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Every bell resounds differently.
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Jason
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:Every bell resounds differently.
So you've decided that for everyone else have you? Alex proclaims that everyone must follow their own path, he has decided this is in the best interests of everyone.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Alex speaks that hallowed and accursed word which is life and death at the same time, and Alex begets truth and lying, good and evil, light and darkness in the same word and in the same act. And that, Jason, is why Alex is terrible, and why you are right to feel roused to indignation.
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Jason
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

You believe that everyone has their own path to follow, "Who is the final arbiter of what is 'best'?", but then you come to Genius Forums and try to push people off the path they have chosen. Isn't that hypocritical?
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Well, of course in a way you are right. There are ao many different religions and traditions, each making a recommendation, each offering a path to something-or-other. Once you see and perhaps understand a given tradition, and even if you see things differently, or have been through what they recommend and see other options, other possibilities, maybe it IS best simply to go your own way, and say nothing? But no tradition exists in a vacuum, and all are sycretic. If you are looking for a Key as to why I do what I do, it is [deleted]. I do [deleted] for [deleted] reasons. Is everything you do completely up front?

Why do you think the QRS-tians have created a public forum, Jason? They love the debate, they invite the debate. THAT is their mission, and that part of it I respect (and other's too).

If I ask make the statement or ask the question Who is the final arbiter? (Of anything), I think it is a great question.

Yet I am aware that when I talk to people with a very basic, and perhaps rather frail 'faith' (there are many evangelical Christians in my part of Latin America), I decide that I probably shouldn't confuse them or 'disrupt' their faith with troubling questions.

Everyone 'locates' themselves within their understanding, often hard gained, of this reality, this place where we all happen to be. Ideas can be an anchor, and sometimes it is not nice to lift someone's anchor.

But this is a list of big-boys, and the QRS are Big Teachers and they have the asnwers, Justin. They would never and will never be moved by anything I say. It's the perfect environment for me!
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bert
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by bert »

by bert on Sun May 06, 2007 11:50 am
why moan so much,when we can lead a full life...whether as labourer or craftsman - there is no better service to yourself and others - than to enjoy your freedom to choose a passtime or enjoyable activity your own way,making or seeking your creature comforts : generate your own truth and worth without argument, i.e. ,without forcing them on others or allowing others to inflict theirs on you.
but this is a mad world to awake in,robbed of your birthright, freedom measured out,misapplied and seldom trained for our rightfull work...sickenly I could go on.
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by bert »

this falling present top-heavy and officieus hierarchy with more parasites than ever before... is heavily cracked ,its feet of clay, without intelligence of its own - if not already, one good shove will see the end. when the intelligent cease to sell their ability to unworthy causes individuality comes into its own. and these saviours, prophets, atheists, nihilists,etc. are useless: they are so entirely self-deceived, such supreme egotists that they really believe that by the extension of their careerism and ideologies can good accrue to others! to hell with their heavens and their miserable bargains... and the atheists, for I have forgotten more than they could digest. let them save themselves... on other days I am different... and even deny my denials ; but sometimes I am blessed, to some extent intoxicate myself, and draw nearer to Gods and Soul than these spielers ever were.
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elderwoodxxx
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by elderwoodxxx »

Just 'browsing' along.. Interesting debate... Art.
Of course pre and post Twentieth c .. each Art movement was a reaction against the previous.. we have Abstact Expressionism.. with Pollocks drips and processes, applied with the concept of creation.. Cubist expression.. capturing fragments of reality upon a two dimensional canvas..Picasso's Religious outpourings of many a hidden symbol eg Guernica.. dipicting the outcry of the Spanish civil war, the carpet bombing.. Cindy Shermans film stills..questioning the stereotypes of perceived womens roles.. Bill Violas digital, emotional evocative work...eg The Passions... again loaded with religious symbolism. Olafur Eliassons 'The weather Project' and his giant sun in Tate Moderns Turbine Hall questioning the perceptions of mans Self awareness in relation to others as ONE..The viewers become the art, they themselves finishing the piece. The Shock of the new..(Or now not so new.. ) Damien Hirst's work was titled The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living and was a shark in formaldehyde in a vitrine.

Of course we have come a long way from the Greek aesthetic whose sculptures captured the pure divinity of consciousness serenly upon the face of e.g. Michelangelo's Biblical David..
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/mich ... david.html
Da-Vinci's vitruvian man and aesthetic ideals led art to question those very ideals we place upon society and each other.. we had Duchamp signing a urinal R-Mutt and placing it within the context of a gallery space.. ironically questioning Art itself. Artists canned shit selling for millions.. Our current Post modern era takes us to the point where we openly acknowledge that anything IS art and that IS because we make it. From the outrageous, Emin's bed together with its shit to evocative works.. Romanticism and the enlightenment captured the hearts and emotions of free thought from fear and death to beauty and Love.. Ghandi says however that PURE art IS born through intuition and this is where I take my stand within the vast array of the art world. Ones Intuition or Soul.. always speaks out shining a light over eternity. I found it most choking to 'try' and conform to a subjective criteria within the context of an art degree..so what therefore exactly does make good art? Current trends and conformity or following ones own muse.. the latter i believe.. because who would want to follow another.. when the way we all choose is always our own. Most great artists shine against their contemporaries, recognised only after they have gone..birthing new thought, new genres, new ideals.. The metaphysical poets.. wordsworth and keats.. painters Freidrich and Turner.. captured raw emotion..something that is always part of us, defining continually who we are and how we perceive.

Amanda BA (PS always wanted to write those hard earned letters after my name ;-) even though they mean absolutely nothing !)
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elderwoodxxx
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Re: Aesthetic experience as a 'mini-me' of enlightenment?

Post by elderwoodxxx »

Every ones path is always their own.. as everyone is uniquely individual perfected within their own journey in an unfolded linear time space. Where would the sense be if we followed the person who we felt wasnt for us? That would be going against what our heart tells us. Conforming to societies dictates and manipulation of conditioning to function within it....You will always do what you want, from getting up to making tea.. following a dream or fighting a cause... actions will speak louder than words they always have done.. just need to question those reasons for them.. do you require a reward? or is your reward within the action?

Where would the world be if we did not have those lights which have shone through out time?.. those mozarts, and da vincis, shakespeare's and Einsteine's those thinkers..eg kant, hume...etc.. or those great men, leaders of good..by all means follow what you beileve for the betterment of humanity.. but do not follow a path of selfish beterment leading to destruction, death and chaos within iniquity and power.

we all have an inner passion and the freedom to be good at what we can do... so become who you were born to be... we all have our part in the story we call life....all have our place on a branch of the tree...as ONE and of course we all have our own freedom to pull our own strings.. and finding our own truths..allows us to do so.. some puppets are completely pulled along.. by the hands of others.. some have small control... and still others those lights... they have full control and mastery of Self.. the same self which lay within all others..That self.. controllable only through understanding and wisdom and of course personal experience. So is the world your stage? do you know what show you are acting in? or are you writing the script??

amandaxxx
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