Practical steps to enlightenment

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

Carl G wrote:I wouldn't want a super high IQ for the same reason I wouldn't want to be hung like a horse: although it would be fun I wouldn't want to deal with the runaway ego problems sure to accompany such a gift.

Speaking for myself.
Maybe that's why it took me 25 yrs of meditation and a near death experience to break through the ego barrier. Seriously! The old dilemma of how to deal with the chattering 'monkey mind' (just witness it without struggle) was, without a doubt, compounded by my overactive mind.
(Being hung like a horse is much easier to manage!... but seriously folks....)
mikiel
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Tomas
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Tomas »

.



-mikiel-
Hi tomas,

-tomas-
Howdy!




-Boss Hogg sneers-
Looks like a case of "condemnation with faint praise."

-tomas-
With a measured intellectual response...




-Boss Hogg teases-
So you think my cussing is naughty? OK, fine. Fits my persona as a biker fairly well.

-tomas-
No, not really.




-Boss Hogg brags-
You'd be shaking your finger like a prissy old granny if you overheard me and my buds, the Free Souls bullshitting in a local tavern.

-tomas-
Perhaps you'd care to shake a finger at an East Coast chapter president of The Hell's Angels?




-Boss Hogg best falsetto voice-
Tch, tch, tch... Clicking your tongue and saying "shame on you."
Cute!

-tomas-
So, you still selling your girls to the local Sheriff's Dept?




-Boss Hogg further nags-
So, to "get it" I must clean up my act and talk nice. Gives me a chuckle.

-tomas-
No, but you haven't learned the common man's tact of 'discreet cussing' to make "the" point.




-Boss Hogg infers-
You demonstrate ego's axiom, "Everyone should be more like me." No, thanks.
mikiel

-tomas-
You are on a dry lakebed.




.
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Tomas
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Tomas »

.

And, away we go!




-Boss Hogg-
You who live in ego do not "get" ego-transcendence. How could you? No way.

-tomas-
Hey Boss, how long did you "lurk" here ... before your first post?




-Boss Hogg-
What you consider a 'show of anger" is that intensity I shared in the Wilber quote.

-tomas-
Even the Devil, is capable of quoting scripture, at a moments' notice.




-Boss Hogg bleats-
It is not peronal anger on my part but radical honesty which happens to show your stupidity ... as in how you "know" I am lying... totally ignorant of the study of "knowing' ... epistemplogy ... and you had no comment.

-tomas-
The above, needs some grammatical cleanup.




-Boss Hogg-
Silence is good when you have no knowledge of the subject. Wise, ironically, on your part not to get into the study of how we "know.' Your ignorance in this matter would be embarrassing if only you had a clue.

-tomas-
Your tone belies your real structural motive here.




-Boss Hogg reflects-
And how you "know" I am not at IQ 99.9996 percentile is a joke... I will not,under the agreements of anonymity of the institute which did the study reveal the name of the institute.

-tomas-
Oh, Jezuz, and to think the Army offered me OCS (Officer's Candidate School), and I turned them down! (Drip, drip, drip on the forehead)




-Boss Hogg digs a deeper hole-
And if I did, they would not reveal the names of the "high geniuses" of the study, those scoring in the top one in a half million and above.

-tomas-
Up, up, and away! - in my beautiful balooonnnn.....




-Boss Hogg whispers-
You have no idea what a breach of confidentiality here would mean.

-tomas-
Sure we do, the CIA, OSI, and other assorted, top-secret alphabet soup agencies would send us all to Gitmo or Abu Ghraib for "the third-degree." (shudders)




-Boss Hogg further brags-
The Pentagon wants to put all of us 170 and above geniuses under a "program" to enhance their military superiority.

-tomas-
Oh, right. They're coming to take me away! Ha-ha ho-ho (he-he) to the fuzzy farm.




-Boss Hogg browbeats-
You are an idiot in this realm, and I will not reveal the "proof" as public information.

-tomas-
Yeah, yeah, yeah, under penalty that the Mossad will come and hunt you down.




-Boss Hogg at last, ends-
This is the end of this conversation, as per "proof' of my documented IQ.
mikiel

-tomas-
Don't bother calling us from the drunk tank, we don't accept collect calls :-/


.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

Tomas,
I must admit, I actually enjoyed witnessing you make a completely foolish asshole of yourself above. Kinda like open mike amateur hour for wanna be playwrites who are obviously not to be taken seriously, and the fun is in the melodrama of the audience "boo-ing" until the fool gets the hook, yanked off stage by the MC.
In short, don't give up your day job in hope of making it as a playwrite. Maybe the Boss-Hogg caricature could make it as a comic book version of the Dukes of Hazard, tho... but don't hold your breath.
m
ed: caricature correction... wouldn't want you to think I was so stupid as to mis-spell words! Never!
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

mikiel wrote: The Pentagon wants to put all of us 170 and above geniuses under a "program" to enhance their military superiority.
You've gotta be joking? I mean the pentagon can always pick up the professors at MIT, or the math grads at Princeton to do whatever they want to do. There is no dearth of people with great intellectual horsepower. The IQ is a very crude test of intelligence, kind of like testing a car by its 0-60 accelaration time. It gives you some idea, but not too much. If you really believe in this pentagon conspiracy stuff, then Trevor's theory sounds really plausible to me, that you were conned.
Ramayana
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Ramayana »

Perhaps, they (the super secret government agency mikiel refers too) was interested in how to prepare for his 2014 pyramid prophecy... A "Ramayana" of sorts... How ironic, an seriously deranged.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

For openers, here's a note to admin.
I just tried to post an in-depth reply to maestro (with an excellent wireless signal) and got the 'styles can be applied" screen. I re-submitted (without any changes re: "applied styles") and the post disappeared.
I know the admin hates me, but this is dirty pool... or a fucking tech glitch that has "style" options interferring with the intent to just post the fucking post as written.
m
Maybe I'll try again, in a more brief post.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maestro wrote:
mikiel wrote: The Pentagon wants to put all of us 170 and above geniuses under a "program" to enhance their military superiority.
You've gotta be joking? I mean the pentagon can always pick up the professors at MIT, or the math grads at Princeton to do whatever they want to do. There is no dearth of people with great intellectual horsepower. The IQ is a very crude test of intelligence, kind of like testing a car by its 0-60 accelaration time. It gives you some idea, but not too much. If you really believe in this pentagon conspiracy stuff, then Trevor's theory sounds really plausible to me, that you were conned.
I am not joking. In 1970, when i was the subject of this special "high genius" study, there was a cold war going on. We were assured of confidentiality because, at that time, there was a pentagon drive to recruit those of extremely high IQ into a military brain trust, which was assumed to be a patriotic duty, if one was not a commie or a 'sympathizer.' I was not but I was, at the time a pacifist and not willing to rent out my brain for military purposes.

I have no idea what the present pentagon brain trust recruitment program looks like or what the high end IQ's of the "the professors at MIT, or the math grads at Princeton" are, or if there is any interest in them as in the cold war.
I have no interest at all in "pentagon conspiracy stuff." This is all your own uninformed shit projected onto me. It doesn't fit at all.

Anyway, I hope this will post without the interruption of stylistic option page blowing it away again.

My signal is again excelent...
here goes...
m
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

Ramayana wrote:Perhaps, they (the super secret government agency mikiel refers too) was interested in how to prepare for his 2014 pyramid prophecy... A "Ramayana" of sorts... How ironic, an seriously deranged.
You, "Ramayana" are an ignorant fool. The institute in question was and is a private and very well known "think tank", as I've said before... Duh! (Try to be informed before you expose your mean-spirited ignorance so clearly.)
You ridicule me for the "Prophecy" page on my site without the smallest clue about the long history of scholarly study of this most studied and published monument. If you have a criticism of what i wrote on that page, I will be glad to disabuse you of your ignorance, as i have written three manuscripts and taught several community college classes on the subject.

And you are the "troller" who brought the issue of my IQ here from Myspace and then criticized me for talking about it. This is as ridiculous as it gets, yet you have the brass to stay around and continue to sling shit without any substance in actual argument or dialogue. (I seriously doubt if you know the difference!)

Say something intelligent or go away.
mikiel
Ramayana
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Ramayana »

mikiel wrote:
Ramayana wrote:Perhaps, they (the super secret government agency mikiel refers too) was interested in how to prepare for his 2014 pyramid prophecy... A "Ramayana" of sorts... How ironic, an seriously deranged.
You, "Ramayana" are an ignorant fool. The institute in question was and is a private and very well known "think tank", as I've said before... Duh! (Try to be informed before you expose your mean-spirited ignorance so clearly.)
You ridicule me for the "Prophecy" page on my site without the smallest clue about the long history of scholarly study of this most studied and published monument. If you have a criticism of what i wrote on that page, I will be glad to disabuse you of your ignorance, as i have written three manuscripts and taught several community college classes on the subject.

And you are the "troller" who brought the issue of my IQ here from Myspace and then criticized me for talking about it. This is as ridiculous as it gets, yet you have the brass to stay around and continue to sling shit without any substance in actual argument or dialogue. (I seriously doubt if you know the difference!)

Say something intelligent or go away.
mikiel
I did ask, as others have, what institute performed the in-question testing. You refuse to to name the source, or a verifiable result. So, really, I have tried to be informed. Contrary to your accusation. Can you point me in the direction that I might be informed to your credentials other than your hearsay?

The critique is substantiated by the dialog that did happen on a myspace forum. Of which you are now banned. Where you named anyone not of the opinion that the universe is cyclic or oscillating an idiot, fool, blind-sheep, the list of libel is long. You asserted that evidence (note: real evidence) to the contrary is merely credentialed by brain washing scientists. When confronted to provide any empirical evidence or observation to support your claim(s), and that you are in fact the fool to base these opinions on "mystic visions", you support your claims with your IQ, and that anyone without an IQ of 165 plus need not question your authority... Utterly ridiculous!!

My feeling is, in following your dialog here, it's just more of the same. Preach & preach, anyone not in agreement is just wrong, and labeled with colorful expletives with the intent to humiliate and intimidate under the guise of "rude boy" or "radical honesty". Which is conveniently license to act as an egocentric attention mongering know-it-all.

(Didn't tough love lose favor in the 90's?)

Without the intent of representing anyone else. I see nothing but hearsay and soap box grand-standing, hear mikiel roar! Provide some verifiable evidence why your opinion is better then anyone else's, or stop calling people ignorant and stupid...

Go on an call me a materialist, (I'm very aware of your typical script) doesn't bother me a bit. I'll take empirical materialism over "mystic visions" gladly, and on any day... I can support what I say, no mystic visions, no mind altering drugs, or dream states required... I'm comfortable with the reality science, and common sense (which seems to not be very common in hard times) can provide, mikiel, you should try living in it, or at least stop misleading people that you're some chosen individual that we are ignorant fools not to blindly believe or follow...

BTW: Sorry to truth_justice for the obvious derailment of the topic. Not necessarily of my doing, (see the grand-standing one) but an obvious contribution to the sustenance...

(My two cents, as that's all it's probably worth to most)
Life is short, and the suffering long... Love your family, and do what you can, try to be at peace with yourself and hope that your family will remember you in good favor!
It is, what it is... We are stardust, and dust we will become. That's all that's really verifiable.
Enlightenment is not that of privileged intellect, or discovery, alleged or not... To live without hate is the way to happiness. (Only my humble opinion of course, and that of which I am not perfect in discipline) It's very simple, and yet very estranged from modern society. It's Godless, no credentials required, and without need for explanation.

Whether it takes meditation, seclusion, praying, or just some thought, it's really all the same goal. If you live a good, up-right life, what tyranny could deny you?

The Jews hate the Persians, the Persians hate the Jews and all western culture, and Americans hate everyone, heh. It's embedded from birth. Any following that de-programs hate will lead you to happiness, there is no "program" to enlightenment IMO... Hedge your bets, sure, good planning... Protect your interests, good idea... But understand why these factions hate each-other, understand their differences... If your Daddy taught you to hate, how can you know any better? How can you be guilty? It ALL will comes down to hatred... Can you rise above it?? It's not dependent on your IQ, or your God... It's in you...

There is no-one without hatred IMO... Not even mikiel... But, can you live (and die without remorse?) with yourself? That's the question... And IF there is more, what tyrant God would deny you of your good life?

I really hope no one thinks, I am preaching. I am a God-less bastard. Am far from being able to contest I live by this rule, but do try to understand, as most should, the "others" perspective... And just trying to stay on topic :)

What if the hokey-pokey is what it is all about?? *smiles* ;-)

The End.
Last edited by Ramayana on Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

mikiel wrote: I have no idea what the present pentagon brain trust recruitment program looks like or what the high end IQ's of the "the professors at MIT, or the math grads at Princeton" are, or if there is any interest in them as in the cold war.
They do not need an IQ test as they have proved their mettle in much more challenging intellectual tasks. For example Maryilyn vos savant had the highest IQ ever, and what she does is write a puzzle column for a magazine.

Intelligence is a different beast altogether. I define intelligence as the ability to learn from experience and act optimally in all circumstances. It is closely related to the notion of enlightenment. Of course the Professors fail at intelligence, as they act merely mechanically and habitually in day to day life.
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Tomas
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Tomas »

.


Here we go again!




-Boss Hogg-
I am not joking.

-tomas-
Aw, come on, a little cussing is more your style. Let it out!




-Boss Hogg brags-
In 1970, when i was the subject of this special "high genius" study,

-tomas-
Yup, when I was back there in seminary school...




-Boss Hogg bleats-
there was a cold war going on.

-tomas-
I sense a lot more "hot air" on the genius forum...




-Boss Hogg slips in-
We were assured of confidentiality because,

-tomas-
Yeah, so was I when I got shipped off to VietNam.




-Boss Hogg reflects-
at that time, there was a pentagon drive to recruit those of extremely high IQ into a military brain trust,

-tomas-
Yeah, yeah, we know already!




-Boss Hogg sings GI Blues-
which was assumed to be a patriotic duty,

-tomas-
Okay, Elvis, enough deep shit for one day.




-Boss Hogg does Dick Nixon-
if one was not a commie or a 'sympathizer.'

-tomas-
I am not a crook!




-Boss Hogg backtracks on the Pledge of Allegiance-
I was not but I was, at the time a pacifist and not willing to rent out my brain for military purposes.

-tomas-
You sound like a Benedict Arnold, you closet warpig!




-Boss Hogg further rants-
I have no idea what the present pentagon brain trust recruitment program looks like

-tomas-
No idea? -- Your high genius can't figure that out?




-Boss Hogg-
or what the high end IQ's of the "the professors at MIT, or the math grads at Princeton" are,

-tomas-
Obviously, a tad higher than yours.




-Boss Hogg
or if there is any interest in them as in the cold war.

-tomas-
Dutifully pay your taxes, Mr. Hogg.




-Boss Hogg's disclaimer-
I have no interest at all in "pentagon conspiracy stuff."

-tomas-
Best go back to your tavern, with all your biker buds, dream of your past glory days...




-Boss Hogg further backtracks-
This is all your own uninformed shit projected onto me. It doesn't fit at all.

-tomas-
If the shoe fts, you wear it.




-Boss Hogg drones on-
Anyway, I hope this will post without the interruption of stylistic option page blowing it away again.

-tomas-
Oh yeah, blame it on someone else...




-Boss Hogg-
My signal is again excelent...
here goes...
m

-tomas-
More paranoia?




.
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

Tomas wrote:-Boss Hogg slips in-
We were assured of confidentiality because,
-tomas-
Yeah, so was I when I got shipped off to VietNam.
-Boss Hogg reflects-
at that time, there was a pentagon drive to recruit those of extremely high IQ into a military brain trust,
-tomas-
Yeah, yeah, we know already!
Tomas, are you suggesting that the millitary brain trust was actually the draft, which Mikiel managed to dodge.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maesto: "Tomas, are you suggesting that the millitary brain trust was actually the draft, which Mikiel managed to dodge."

You must realize by now that tomas is not inteested in substantive debate, much less true dialogue. He is here for the drama of the brawl only.
Granted, I am one of the nastiest brawlers here (a mere persona I enjoy from transcendental perspective ,of course!... (actually true as well as tongue-in-cheek). But my pimary purpose, my inspiration and spiritual calling is to share my experience of awakening with intent to inspire others. Some egocentrics are way more dense than others, however, so the "rude boy" persona as an expression of the commitment to radical honesty is the way I choose to go in such cases.

I was indeed a conscientious objector during the war in Nam. But the daft was not the recruitment i was speaking of above. There was an active solicitation of very high IQ citizens in '70, by the pentagon to participate in it's version of a gov't "think tank", not as GI's but as a pivate citizens... So we "target subjects" were told by the private institute doing the study on us. That is why it (they) assured us of confidentiality in this regard, so that our replies to the many questions of the survey would not be prejudiced by fear of the military wanting to pick our brains based on our sometimes very in-depth answers.
Hope this clarifies the reality of the situation from my perspective...

It has nothing to do with tomas' little drama, which obviously arose out of his deeply hurt feelings in reaction to my post in criticism of him.... especially after his half-assed compliments.

(PS: Yes, I am the master of the run-on sentence... stream of consciousness style with a major disregard for grammar and punctuation. I know... it riles up the pedantic pundits here obsessed with traditional correctness... And I really don't give a shit.)
Good evening.
mikiel
(my "r" is going out on my keyboad. I catch most but not all... and other lettes have done the same recently... tho I've vacuumed it... just FYI... like "lettes" above.)
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

Mikiel,
Since you claim to be enlightened, I have a question for you.

Are there degrees of awareness and understanding which go into a continuum, with no such thing as enlightenment, or is there a threshold before which you are a fool and after which you are a Buddha?
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maestro wrote:Mikiel,
Since you claim to be enlightened, I have a question for you.

Are there degrees of awareness and understanding which go into a continuum, with no such thing as enlightenment, or is there a threshold before which you are a fool and after which you are a Buddha?
First let me clarify the premise held to be true by all non-enlightened egos: That "I" am an individual identity "claiming" something. A false premise from enlightened perspective.
So your "you claim to be enlightened" starts with two logical errors of assumption, the "I" as a separate identity and the illusion, based on the false "I" of claiming something, the goal, the Grail... Whatever, of enlightenment.

There are degrees of awareness as the "veil thins" the illusory "Boundary" between "me" and the nameless Oneness. Sometimes this illusory veil disappears and one has an epiphany... and then later it seems like a dream... a temporary "altered state of consciousness. This is not enlightenment. It is not a temporary altered state... tho it can be a preview, a glimpse of whatever duration.
The "permanent estate of enlightenment" never goes away. The illusory "bubble" of ego (separating "me" from ... you name it... the whole... God... cosmic consciousness) can not be re-blown around the individual entity as a real boundary ever again. Once you are truly free of the illusion of "me" it is never again believable.

I gotta go, as an unexpected duty calls.
Back later.
(I do thing "fool" and " Buddha" are dramatic extremes of language.
I was not a complete fool the whole 25 yrs of my meditative discipline before the breakthrough. Lots of epiphanies, as above... but alway falling back into illusion. then... Awakening....

m (no edit... scuse the missing "r"s)
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

Mikiel,
Gurdjieff said that in a normal man, there are various (habitual) behavioral patterns which are triggered by external cirumstances. These patterns run for a certain time, then give way to another pattern and so on, depending upon the circumstances.


Do you agree with this statement?

If yes what is the difference between this state of affairs pre and post enlightenment.

Regards
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maestro wrote:Mikiel,
Gurdjieff said that in a normal man, there are various (habitual) behavioral patterns which are triggered by external cirumstances. These patterns run for a certain time, then give way to another pattern and so on, depending upon the circumstances.


Do you agree with this statement?

If yes what is the difference between this state of affairs pre and post enlightenment.

Regards
I agree in general, as many to most of my old habits are still in operation. (They came back after a period of bewilderment in the wilderness of no programs operating automatically at all, 'cept of course the autonomic physical systems.)

But there are outstanding exceptions. For instance, I have never taken "the world" for granted as before. Each moment is as fresh as if I were a newborn babe. I never get drunk anymore either, which was an old habit based on addiction and inability to stop quite often.
But the main habit that goes away and never comes back after awakening is thinking of "myself" as a "me" separate from the rest of creation and as an identity unto "myself." Truly "no boundary." One Identity, consciousness itSelf in all.

Thanks for asking,
mikiel
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Tomas
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Re: Practial steps to enlightment

Post by Tomas »

PJ818 wrote:Yes, I'm "fully" cognizant of what a pendulum is..... so... thanks, your later posts on this pendulum business answered my question :-)

PS - The Pit and The Pendulum alway come to mind (when hearing/reading the word). Edgar Allan Poe

Tomas
Sorry, Tomas. No wonder you asked! <bg> Not having such other kinds in mind, I scurried to find one that fit what I use. Also, I was procrastinating and you wouldn't have had the question if I'd just come out with it to begin with. ;-)

The comment by Brokenhead about the dousing rod caused me remember a couple of years ago when I was led in that direction. I was wandering around a bosque in Albuquerque (NM-US) with a wood dousing Y - and having not a clue what I was looking for. Called it a 'miss' on my part and hadn't thought of it since. However, today I asked if that was still an open mission, and got a resounding yes - but a certain kind of wood wanted. So guess I'll dig in that sandbox and maybe find a clue to the 'object', as well. Some riddles are tougher than others!

pj[/quote]


Thanks for the clarification :-)


.
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Tomas
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by Tomas »

maestro wrote:
Tomas wrote:-Boss Hogg slips in-
We were assured of confidentiality because,
-tomas-
Yeah, so was I when I got shipped off to VietNam.
-Boss Hogg reflects-
at that time, there was a pentagon drive to recruit those of extremely high IQ into a military brain trust,
-tomas-
Yeah, yeah, we know already!
Tomas, are you suggesting that the millitary brain trust was actually the draft, which Mikiel managed to dodge.

Well, he says "in 1970", that damn war had been running on for decades before he knew what was going on.

Whether he was a draft dodger isn't a fair comment on your part. Much like Dick Cheney said, "He (Dick) had more important things to do."

I protested against the VietNam conflict before I was drafted... So it was a case of whether (after receiving my draft notice) I'd take my chances facing a military tribunal and "risk" being sentenced to 5-years hard labor at Ft. Riley, Kansas, or 2-years in the Army :-/

Keeping in mind I (and the girlfriend) had three babies to feed & support. In essence, no deferments for college or wife & kids.

It's pretty much the same situation now with Iraq and Afghanistan, the young people view this as a wasted war, body counts are understated (probably closer to 15,000) war dead - so why sign up to have your body & mind wasted?

Todays wars have private militias, Blackwater etc. to kill the civilians and depopulate the citizens.

I can't turn back the clock and hope for another reality (Totality)... I played the hand and lost an eye, hearing in one ear, a lung, ribs, and a kidney.

Life sucks but it's the only game in town.

It's shit or get off the pot.


edited: to change the Dick Cheney misspell mportant to important.

Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971


.
Last edited by Tomas on Thu May 01, 2008 12:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

mikiel wrote: I agree in general, as many to most of my old habits are still in operation. (They came back after a period of bewilderment in the wilderness of no programs operating automatically at all, 'cept of course the autonomic physical systems.)

But there are outstanding exceptions. For instance, I have never taken "the world" for granted as before. Each moment is as fresh as if I were a newborn babe. I never get drunk anymore either, which was an old habit based on addiction and inability to stop quite often.
But the main habit that goes away and never comes back after awakening is thinking of "myself" as a "me" separate from the rest of creation and as an identity unto "myself." Truly "no boundary." One Identity, consciousness itSelf in all.
Thanks for asking,
mikiel
If you experience yourself seamlessly as one with the universe, then you are indeed enlightened according to Buddhism Hinduism etc.

However the habitual patterns can still cause suffering to arise. There is nobody as you say, but the pattern and its manifestations are a phenomenon unto themselves, operating in the one/all, or more locally the body/mind. Thus the realization of unity is not identical to the end of suffering.
mikiel
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maesto wrote:
"If you experience yourself seamlessly as one with the universe, then you are indeed enlightened according to Buddhism Hinduism etc."

To be absolutely clear and honest, this "conscious unity" with the universe does not mean loss of awareness of this individual as a unique entity/form... just not a separate identity as "a concciousness" but rather totally in synch and resonance with/as the one Consciousness. There is a subtle but all-important difference which most folks I teach have a hard time understanding. It is really impossible (beyond just intellectually) prior to enlightenment.

maestro: "However the habitual patterns can still cause suffering to arise. There is nobody as you say, but the pattern and its manifestations are a phenomenon unto themselves, operating in the one/all, or more locally the body/mind. Thus the realization of unity is not identical to the end of suffering."

True, but there is an end to the *sufferer.* This, again is impossible to actually "grok" until the "identity, me," the one who is supposed to be suffering is actually Real-ized to be an illusion as a separate identity. Then there is no fear... (Who dies?... the primal fear) and no anger... (who is attached to certain outcomes which, when they do not manifest, incites the anger in the illusory one so attached?

Thanks again. Refreshing to have an actual dialogue in mutual respect on enlightenment on this forum. (Truly, it is a way of life in real life at the Center out on the land trust.)
mikiel
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

I think you may have realized that these suffering patterns are useless/harmful and are just wasting energy of the organism. Thus there is a need to get rid of them. You may want to get rid of them too, as you have got rid of the I illusion.

In my own experience to get rid of the I illusion is a tough nut to crack, but it by no means is the ultimate and there is a lot of ground that can be covered thereafter. I regard Buddhism as an incomplete teaching because it stops right at the end of the I illusion.

Gurdjieff goes much further than this, you may wish to check out "In search of the miraculous". I came upon him a few days ago and at once saw that this sly man had surpassed Buddha in his knowledge.
mikiel
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by mikiel »

maestro wrote:I think you may have realized that these suffering patterns are useless/harmful and are just wasting energy of the organism. Thus there is a need to get rid of them. You may want to get rid of them too, as you have got rid of the I illusion.

About suffering... at my age, nearly 63, the usual old man aches and pains are a fact of life. No sweat. No interruption of the ecstasy being cosmic consciousness in a finite body just because a joint or two is aching. It is what it is without wasted energy on reaction and wishing it were different, tho I take suppliments which ease it to a minimum... just the usual wisdom of leading a healthy life, which I do.

In my own experience to get rid of the I illusion is a tough nut to crack, but it by no means is the ultimate and there is a lot of ground that can be covered thereafter. I regard Buddhism as an incomplete teaching because it stops right at the end of the I illusion.

My final initiation on the "I" illusion was an immediate internal mantra, "I, Who?" every time I thought or said "I", the most powerful and common hypnotic illusion ubiquitous ina all humanity.
Yes, beyond the little "i" is cosmic Identity, and there is no "beyond" That... just constant growth in ways to manifest it in the world and cosmos as individual forms.


Gurdjieff goes much further than this, you may wish to check out "In search of the miraculous". I came upon him a few days ago and at once saw that this sly man had surpassed Buddha in his knowledge.
I studied Gurdjieff in depth in my college years but it's not that clear in memory. His section in "Meetings with Remarkable Men" is presently most memorable. Maybe I'll brush up again with your suggestion as more inspiration from enlightened ones for my students.
Thanks.
mikiel
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maestro
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Re: Practical steps to enlightenment

Post by maestro »

Tomas wrote:I can't turn back the clock and hope for another reality (Totality)... I played the hand and lost an eye, hearing in one ear, a lung, ribs, and a kidney.

Life sucks but it's the only game in town.

It's shit or get off the pot.
You have had a real hard life bro. Your sufferings seem to much bigger than all those philosophers, who for the most imagine their suffering.
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