Practical steps to enlightenment

[David Quinn]

Those too!

-

[Steven]

David wrote:

it helps to burn your brides

And your bridges too!! ; )

You are the most submissive female I have seen in my life.

Why? What does anyone else matter?

[bill]

[quote][/quote]Re: Practial steps to enlightment
by Dan Rowden on Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:38 pm

I deleted the duplicate thread as it was needless. As for the actual thread subject matter, I think Kevin's section, Stages of the Way from Poison for the Heart is as useful a guide to the practical matters of the path as anything that might be said in this thread.[quote]


___________

So, given Kevin's disdain for the female, or relationships with females- would it be better to become enlightened before fathering a child or after? What I'm getting at is whether enlightenment precludes or negates the survival of the species?

Can we truly escape the life force?

[maestro]

If you believe the "psychological aspect of enlightenment" is "the main aspect", how could you consider the discussion of the "femininity vs masculinity" invalid; for it’s the very basis of psychology (unconsciousness vs consciousness)? Remaining ignorant of the consequences of the feminine blocks you from getting anywhere near enlightenment. You shall remain in 'Hell' until you take steps to awaken from her grasp.

I know you mean feminine=unconscious and masculine=conscious. Then call them as such, and avoid the time and energy wasted in futile arguments. Most argumentation here would cease with this simple remapping.

BTW even if you are very highly aware most of you (i.e. body/mind) is still unconscious (almost all body and mental processes are destined to be unconscious eg action of internal organs even most of the mental processes).

[Steven]

Im still struggling to come to terms with the idea that something related to how I think is not psychological.

[maestro]

it helps to burn your bridges and cut off all other avenues of sustenance, such that it becomes a matter of life and death for you. A matter of enlightenment or bust.

Hey I do not think it is very wise to put everything on enlightenment, it is not going to make you a superman and solve all the practical problems of living. And anyways according to me it is not practiced through exclusion of other activities but the practice is a part of the other activities.

[David Quinn]

Wise men do not agree with you.

You and I are referring to entirely different things when we use the word "enlightenment". Mere introspective observation it is not.

-

[David Quinn]

If you believe the "psychological aspect of enlightenment" is "the main aspect", how could you consider the discussion of the "femininity vs masculinity" invalid; for it’s the very basis of psychology (unconsciousness vs consciousness)? Remaining ignorant of the consequences of the feminine blocks you from getting anywhere near enlightenment. You shall remain in 'Hell' until you take steps to awaken from her grasp.

I know you mean feminine=unconscious and masculine=conscious. Then call them as such, and avoid the time and energy wasted in futile arguments. Most argumentation here would cease with this simple remapping.

That would only serve to paper over the important distinction between unconsciousness occurring within the masculine mind (caused by fear and mental blocks) and unconsciousness occurring within the feminine mind (caused by an inherent incapacity to think consistently and make deeper connections).

In other words, the distinction between the masculine and feminine mind is not one of consciousness vs unconsciousness, but rather of capacity for consciousness vs incapacity.


-

[maestro]

An hour of clear internal observation is worth more than the wisdom of all "wise men" put together.

This refers to the three wise men on display here.

There are other wise men for which the above is not true but even for the ideas gathered from those the final arbiter is clear inner/outer observation.

[sue hindmarsh]

Steven wrote:

David: it helps to burn your brides

Sue: And your bridges too!! ; )

You are the most submissive female I have seen in my life.

Why? What does anyone else matter?

Your outburst is bizarre. What were you thinking?

[Relo]

For me I don't see englightment being conformed into logical steps that can be shared with others. Of course people can say what they have gone through and observers will filter what is / isn't important, but really everyone walks they're own unique paths in those terms. My defined mini so called self enlightenment is seen by me as the counter part of suffering itself.

For me, my path for what I see has started when I was around 13, age 15 was when I realized what was happening and I created a sort of "sitting in others' shoes" type logic, and right now at 18 it seems im pertaining myself to knowledge on how others have walked a similar path towards mine, atleast that's what I intend / expect for now.

[mikiel]

David wrote:

it helps to burn your brides

And your bridges too!! ; )

Just a brief afterthought here...
This really tickled me. An excellent example of a Freudian slip, considering DQ's deep seated chauvinism against women.
mikiel
p.s.: While I'm back to this thread, I'm going to bump my last entry, cuz I think it bears repeating.
-------------
...Anyone who proposes that their journey to awakening is a good prescripton for everyone is undoubtably still just dreaming of Awakening and the riches that will come from the fame of having found the Holy Grail. Don't buy it. ..And don't buy The Ascetic Path Is The Only Way either. It works well in the East, (and and makes starving to death easier and more noble), but it is still just a cultural/religious belief system.)
m

[brokenhead]

For me, my path for what I see as has started when I was around 13, age 15 was when I realized what was happening and I created a sort of "sitting on others shoes" type logic, and right now at 18 it seems im pertaining myself to knowledge on how others have walked a similar path towards mine, atleast that's what I intend / expect for now.

It sounds like you are on the right track, but what the fuck do I know. Just keep your wits about you and have no fear.

[Dave Toast]

Just a brief afterthought here...
This really tickled me. An excellent example of a Freudian slip, considering DQ's deep seated chauvinism against women.
mikiel

It was orders of magnitude funnier than that. But typos, no matter how delicious and so much more seemingly Freudian slipesque than you realise, don't constitute Freudian slips.

[David Quinn]

David wrote:

it helps to burn your brides

And your bridges too!! ; )

Just a brief afterthought here...
This really tickled me. An excellent example of a Freudian slip, considering DQ's deep seated chauvinism against women.

I dedicate this one especially for you, Mikiel:

Men Are Better Than Women

-

[mikiel]

You're promoting this hateful shit as wisdom?
What a fucking idiot!
m

[Dan Rowden]

Hahaha, I think you're a tad too full of New Age moral righteousness to recognize a satirical joke when it's presented to you.

[mikiel]

Hahaha, I think you're a tad too full of New Age moral righteousness to recognize a satirical joke when it's presented to you.

True, I don't know you guys all that well, but you do come accross to me as "male chauvinist pigs."

How am I wrong here? And where do you get that I'm a New Ager?
I've been a visionary mystic all my life. Well, since age 5 anyway when I first "saw" Kosmos "breathing" out (Bang!) and in (Crunch!) I was caught in the "crunch" in that first cosmic journey, and I had nightmares for awhile after. (Oops... off track here a little.)

"Moral righteousness??" I'm not the one here judging all but ascetic renunciation as inappropriate for a legitimate enlightened lifestyle.... Sheesh!
mikiel

[Tomas]

Hahaha, I think you're a tad too full of New Age moral righteousness to recognize a satirical joke when it's presented to you.

Yeah, that and he takes his worldly education too seriously.... = ego.


.

[Faust]

it's not even a satirical joke, most of what that guy said is true

[PJ818]

...Anyone who proposes that their journey to awakening is a good prescripton for everyone is undoubtably still just dreaming of Awakening and the riches that will come from the fame of having found the Holy Grail. Don't buy it. ..And don't buy The Ascetic Path Is The Only Way either. It works well in the East, (and and makes starving to death easier and more noble), but it is still just a cultural/religious belief system.)
m

When I first started noticing something weird about the effects of following the 12 Steps (up through 5, that is), I set some quidelines. Whatever the Answer was to this Disastrous Puzzle of LIfe, it had to be simple enough for *all* of us to get. The Spirit Force that I was looking for didn't play favorites and wasn't a sadistic SOB like the one who created this world; that Joker was about as far from Perfection as I was. (Also, no white lights or apparitions - nothing that anyone else couldn't have.) It turns out that the way is simple, but not easy. Many have had the awakening experience - but without the awareness to realize it, it goes unused.

Bill W 'woke up', had the experience of knowing - beyond doubt - that the Spirit was Within - and then puzzled backwards to figure out what factors happened to cause event. He knew he had it right when he could pass it on. The view from here is that ego has taken over AA and I've yet to find anyone who even thinks about the specific 'black parts' that tell of what is possible from Trusting the Process and not giving up; plus the desire and willingness to do the work.

Ego as no interest in any of us finding a Power greater than itself and gets us to complicate the hell out of things with our 'amazing brains'. My first words after experiencing the Spirit Within? "Holy SHIT! It really IS Within! The philosopher's were RIGHT! How can this BE?!" And then I moved around very gingerly, like I'd suddently become radioactive or something. :0) And the answers began to arrive in earnest.

As for the comment about making money from discovering the Path to the Solution - only letting an ego back in the driver's seat in a big way would consider it. Plus, a way that works is a lot of work - only the committed can keep their eye on the Goal (Complete dissolution of ego.) It's a methodical process, for me. A lot of fun along the way, but a lot of mental awareness and work. Not the stuff that sells quick-fix, self-help books. ;-)

And when the first paragraph would say something to the effect that Utter Despair is what opens the window....the book wouldn't even get out the door. lol

I'm not here to convince anyone of the Path I took/continue on. I've held so much inside about what I've come to see that I was looking for a safe place to get it out of my head and look for the kinks of ego subtly (or not so subtly) doing its infiltration deal. Help in that regard would be welcome and appreciated.

I've read a good bit on this site and Absolute.net in the past couple of days and have gotten clues for my current dismantling project as well as been highly amused at the vast amount of information on the, uhhmmm, unsuitability of females to use up oxygen. lol

The truth about life they don't teach in schools just boggles the mind, eh? <bg> However, I'm not saying there isn't basis for some of the conclusions. Just doesn't go far enough and I'd like to run the framework I've been shown by ya'll.

I was wondering how to introduce myself to the site and I guess this is as okay a nutshell as I can think of. I know how bizarre it sounds. Can't do anything about that, however.

pj

--"True humility entails a degree of skepticism, i.e. the acknowledgment that one's beliefs and commitments might possibly be mistaken, and hence a willingness to revise one's positions in light of new evidence."

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

truth_justice,

Please stop quizzing people as though the subject is "how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich."

First there was a slice of bread, then there was no slice of bread because it was peanut butter and jelly filling, and then there was a slice of bread again.

[David Quinn]

Welcome, PJ:

The truth about life they don't teach in schools just boggles the mind, eh? <bg> However, I'm not saying there isn't basis for some of the conclusions. Just doesn't go far enough and I'd like to run the framework I've been shown by ya'll.

What areas do you think it is lacking?

-

[PJ818]

Welcome, PJ:

The truth about life they don't teach in schools just boggles the mind, eh? <bg> However, I'm not saying there isn't basis for some of the conclusions. Just doesn't go far enough and I'd like to run the framework I've been shown by ya'll.

What areas do you think it is lacking?

-

Thanks for asking, David, as I started questioning whether I was following the right 'pull' and was hesitating.

The framework is the XX and XY. The X being Ego. The Y a 'work vessel'. The "I" is weighed down by the Ego factor. The "I" finds itself both identifying with and rejecting the 'foreign body' lodged within it.

Thus far, Ego's nature appears to be that of shame, the shame-rage of it's predicament - and it's discovery of a will to power (will power) to create/project a totally different environment for itself. The degree of Pride it exhibits is in proportion to the degree of success it has found in divorcing itself from awareness of its true state.

Putting this next part into correct common terms isn't coming to me but perhaps you or others will be able to help when I get to where I'm trying to go with it.

Ok. Emotions (shame and its off-shoots) & Rage/anger are energy. When Ego can suppress/repress emotion, the energy can then be willed toward intellectual thought rather the chaos of defensive reaction/the upkeep of appearances.

Females are born with a double bed of emotion. There is no breathing room for their "I" to surface. It's a constant battle of weathering the storms and misinterpreting the calm. The elements of shame are so close to the surface that it's a full-time to job to keep covered and adopt strategies necessary to survive a day without ending up in a heap of tears releasing shame energy built up. A target assailable from all sides - superficial thinking not the least item in the mix.

Males, however, not only come to experience their "I" but are also conditioned to suppress/repress the X of emotions. The energy is sublimated to thinking. I don't know if there is a better word than 'sublimated', but I see it that way rather than 'transformed'. It's as if the shame/shame-rage is coalesced then sublimated. The energy becomes a fireball and can be directed with great penetration. All without awareness of how the 'power of thinking' came to be different from women.

The process doesn't appear to work the same way in females. It's as if the energy is diffused to the point that depth thinking isn't possible - but they can juggle many, many things on a superficial level - well. One would think that *that* much energy, if harnessed, would surpass males. But it doesn't, to my knowledge. It may be because there isn't 'room'.

Now for the the main point of how it is possilble for women to come to Awareness, from my experience.

I was asthmatic as a child. My brothers thought it great fun to hold me down and tickle me until I was gasping/wheezing for air. One day, this scenario took a different turn. They began to tickle me but I 'turned off'. I could feel the pressure of their jabbing fingers, but that was all. They announced that I was no fun anymore and that terror ceased. But I found lots of uses for this new 'ability'. Being excluded because I was a giirrrrrl was okay now. I discovered a fascination with learning. My brothers pronounced me 'weird' and left me alone. I had social problems in school because I could no longer think like I used to - I saw things differently than other kids my age.

I found my *I*. It's the same *I* that males have but not as strong. With two full Xs, the suppression technique still only gave me a small 'work space' where some of the energy could be concentrated and converted. A class in high school teaching critical thinking skills was the next big boon.

And after that came "Man's Search for Meaning". At 16, I announced at the dinner table that I was no longer going to Church. Said I didn't care if they beat me or grounded me for the next two years - I was done. (12 years in parochial school.) I'd figured out that the G-d of the Old Testament was a psycho and the contradictions between that and hearing "God is Love" were killing my brain. If an omnicient, omnipotent - All Perfect Everything God couldn't do better than this world, there was something seriously wrong.

I spent the next 30 years in a career and doing my best to be 'normal'. Except for that dang nagging question, "What's the gd POINT??!!! Why did you give us the brains to ask the question but not brains enough to figure out the Answer? What an incredibly sadistic sob!" So many times I wanted to commit suicide for spite. "This is how little I think of your "Gift of Life". But there'd be another thought, "If I kill myself, I'm guaranteed *never* to know the Answer. Best to keep going til it ends on it's own."

Then at 40, I discoverd that alcohol blotted out the question and the sense of failure of a wasted life. Four years later, I found myself in a worse place than I was blotting out.

If you've read this and find there is room for me in this forum, I can share some other insights. I am not Enlightened. I became "Aware" of something strange going on in my mind - and took note of the conditions surrounding it. I didn't, at the time, understand what "It" was. Then in another event, I Knew, beyond doubt, that the Spirit was Within and that It's 'entrance' had happened the night four years before and was all the Synchronicity I'd been seeing. (As opposed to 'coincidence' on the Ego side.)

There is a reason that all the intellectual inquiry one is capable of won't find the answer. And why Buddhism misses the mark. The short answer is Ego is a closed system. The Yin and Yang. Before Awareness arrives on the scene, there is only the "I" and Ego. Following Ego too far in either direction leads to insanity. The depths of depravity or the insanity of too much genius.

The "I" does not have "Free Will" until Awareness arrives on the Mindscape. I certainly had two choices before - but both choices came from Ego. True Free Will can only happen when there are two distinct and separate choices to pick from.

Things work in reverse on the Awareness side. You Do, then Understand. Takes some getting used to, at least for me. What knocked my socks off when I started seeing the pattern was to read a quote from GK Chesterton and instantly knowing that he'd found 'It'. "You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it." Ego logic won't get us there.

The logic of Ego is a poor reproduction of Logic in Truth. It's a shock to Pride and one that many don't recover from. I believe it was Aquinas in whose account you can see the exact moment he became Aware. And can surmise that his whole life's work was in error. A few days later, he fell sick and died.

I didn't have far to fall and it was still like being kicked by a massive beast. Ego....baffling, cunning, and exceedingly powerful. Just not more powerful than the Truth. I've laughed like never before - and been hopping mad over how Ego could cause me to miss something now so suddenly obvious. Anthony de Mello expresses the moment well. Grabbing a mental Twix also works. Then I thought, "Oh, well. I'm here now. What next?"

Don't *believe* anything I say. Desire to *know for yourself* if what I'm saying is true.

While I will gladly share the conditions that were met and the process I found, it takes willingness to try the tools. Letting ego think about them and find them wanting doesn't work.<g>

And while my outsides are based on AA, I think that it must be possible for the conditions to be met without everyone turning into alcoholics/drug addicts/ foodoholics/sex addicts ad infinitum. There is no doubt in my mind that there are many in AA who received Awareness - but ego called it a fluke and the moment passed. Maybe many more instances in the world at large. Those adept at Buddhist awareness of the "I" and ego thought separation, to me, are primed, so to speak, to find if a third "thought pool" is actually present. I can share what those moments were like for me to give an indication of what one is looking for. However, keep in mind that once Awareness arrives, it uses elements of the individual to further Understanding. Once invited in, It can lead the way out of the Ego Maze using things individual and collective.

Enlightenment, to me, will be when I've done the work of 'undoing ego'. (Not for sissies. lol)So I'm being quite selfish in hoping others will join the party. The work would go much faster. Those in AA who are content just to be sober (not that it's a small thing, of course) are not interested in More. No matter folks go back to drinking after several years by the truckload, and also commit suicide. Ego....the enemy is within.

If one should feel so inclined, perhaps do a Big Book Search on the net and read the chapter "We Agnostics" - the part where he speaks about the Great Reality towards the end. See if it resonates. I chose to believe that no one in their right mind would offer up something so fantastic if it really wasn't their experience. Came to Trust the Process - and it became my experience as well.

I've thought since the early AA years that the Process of AA would be helpful to be taught in high school. Not that it would be of immediate use. But once the "I" got tired of follwing ego down yet one more dark alley, they'd know where to come back to. The difficulty is extracting the components from alcoholism/addiction so that it will work outside of that framework. And then seeing if it can be passed on. Is it possible to arrest ego through gaining Awareness before obvious insanity appears? Don't know.

Mind-Body-Spirit. The Spiritual part would be Existential Loneliness as opposed to Spritual Bankruptcy. Ex. Loneliness appears to initiate the search for the meaning of life (Bankruptcy, for me, when I gave up the search). Aspects of the mind part I've written about. As for the Body, I'll have to ask and see what Answer comes.

Okay....enough. This is the first time I've tried to tell the inner workings as I've come to see them so far. If the framework can be followed at all, please let me know when you get a chance.

Oh. Positive and negavtive self-esteem are both ego. There just isn't any other choice - until there is. Building positive self-esteem may keep one from committing suicide - but isn't the Answer. A person can't *stay* fixed. Always something coming undone.

Good night, All!

pj

[PJ818]

I awoke with a pressing thought to add. (To someone already Awake....I'm working on the 'sleep thing' that came into awareness a couple of weeks ago. It appears I have other work to do, however, before I 'get it'.)

When I wrote that all the intellectual thinking in the world is for naught as far as coming to the Answer as an answer, there is one HUGE area that is important to pass on.

** This does NOT mean that everything we studied is bogus and worthless.** Repeat as any times as needed. The power of ego comes from having truths with faulty basis - partial truths that are verrry close, but not there yet, etc (and outright falsehoods - Wisdom to know the difference is the territory of Awareness). Awareness brings Clarity to so many things.

If Pride isn't the first 'construct' that has to take a hit, then what would be the point of "coming to"? Would there be any point to defending the lies and misconceptions of Ego? It is Ego that is blind without OR without the Light, not the *I*. The penetrating ability of the male mind will be quite useful - and infinitely more fruitful.

The way I see it: "I" am not my ego - but I won't know the experience of being fully "I" until ego is peeled completely. Where I'm still identified with ego, I remain 'attached'/bound. I think of the process as a DNA helix that is being sytematically 'unzipped' from Ego. The attachments severed by a power greater than Ego. Perhaps the 'power' of *I* has been 'usurped' by Ego. I am seized and held - needed to call for help from Someone on the outside to come pick the locks to the cell. Greek mythology plays a part in Understanding. Perhaps the "I" is Prometheus in the material realm. That thought just popped in - will see where it leads. Could be another clue! It's work, but a lot of fun as well. "Don't miss it, even if you can."

I gained a huge chunk of 'work space' when doing the 5th Step. Held onto that monster for four years swearing I was taking it to the grave. Things changed (read: Head pain is the touchstone to spiritual growth. lol) But although I've gained legitimate 'space' as opposed to repressed/suppressed - it appears that the male will travel much faster than I have once in the Zone.

It kinda works out equally 'trying' for both sides. I have a mountain of X to wade through and do the work on so it is exposed to the healing Force. It is was a huge struggle in the beginning not to let ego develop Pride in me that would be far greater than the petty Pride of a typical female. And the intellectual Pride I had, while no match for the male, was enough to be a wallop.

Males, on the other hand, will take the first hit to the biggest obstacle of Pride (Ego's wannabe-God illusion) at the beginning and the rest of X to be 'dissolved' would be a relative snap, so it would seem. It's kinda like the line in the Gnostic texts where the Apostles are complaining about Magdalene being an exception to being 'included' with males - it takes a male/male to lead the female-become-male through the rest of the Process.

It helps with the Pride Factor for me to think that I'll be Angel 2nd Class (AS2) at Enlightenment. Whether it works out that way or not is okay with me (and I don't discount that I could physically die before the process is finished). I would simply like to quit this mortal coil as quickly as possible, still on the Earth plane. Asking for help is no longer a problem - I do it all the time to be shown the next item in the Ego dungeon I need to work on.

I learned the hard way not to spend too much time on Cosmic Questions. While Answers come, I realized that while Truth doesn't change, continuing to work on the X factor brings depth. I can only achieve depth by continuing to work on the X still operating.

Hope this helps. I'm quite ready for the initial attitude of the Apostles. That's why I've never 'spit it out' before. However, I've searched in vain for an already Awake male. I didn't find this site because I suddenly took an interest the definition of 'genius'. One gets 'led'. (How it works is still amazing, to me.) I just feel the fear and then Trust that I'm in the right place. Do, then Understand. I don't Understaind yet, but I did/continue to do the Do part.

I wait for 'pulls' to share things, so will continue to do so when that happens if there are no objections.

pj

"When you come to the end of all you know to think, do, or say - take a leap of faith and trust that you will either land on solid ground, or be given the ability to fly."

I didn't have a 'god' when I got to the 'jumping off place'. The Force that I was aware of was something I tried to stay away from, out of the line of fire. But when I came to the 'place', I simply said, "Somebody help me....I can't do this....anymore." It isn't the words that 'invited', per se. I came to a place inside my mind where I was so sick and tired of living in my head that I no longer trusted another thought to be a better one or trusted the direction it would lead me.

"Man cannot follow two Masters." Until that moment, I had no clue that it was possible stop following Ego around in an endless maze - and choose to follow a different Path. In the space of seconds, the new Path opened.

It's like being the jockey in a race - Ego was the only horse to pick from to ride (except he only let me think I was the one in control - it's the way around, until it isn't anymore). When exhausted from all the dead ends and running into the brick walls, one day I just 'jumped' - and there was Pegasus saying, "Hang On, I know the Way Out." One doesn't get to 'see' before one jumps. Do, then Understand. Experience is everthing - thinking about it zip. Desire to Know.

From the old Indian story of the two wolves,

"Feed Hope."

pj