The most rational social system.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Jason,

What measures and figures do you use to show the level of scientific progress and innovation by country? What measures and figures do you use to decide the socialist or capitalist political leaning by country? Lastly, assuming there is a correlation in that data that might allow support for your "thought experiment", what is the proof that there is a direct causal link between these factors?

Go buy a car, a computer, a robotic device, a heavy duty machine used for mining, a stereo system, a helicopter, a space shuttle, an air compressor, a table saw, a construction crane or anything else, and you will find that that most of the highest quality products were first invented in the United States or Japan, and traditionally these countries have been very libertarian/capitalist.

The reason why these countries are more favorable to economic growth is that the government is traditionally conservative and allows the free market to privatize as many services as possible as a means to keep taxes very low. True Capitalist societies also tend to remove all capital gains taxes from businesses as well. And Low taxes equals more profits for business, and more disposable income for individuals, which means more money is invested back into businesses for R&D in science/tech.

Countries that are too liberal/socialist tend to overwhelm the free market with too many unnecessary government controlled services, too many regulations, too many hurtles for new businesses, which means less competition, and it is more difficult for companies to grow and turn a profit, as they have to pay out so much in taxes, annual fees, and they are far too regulated…

Think about this - The two biggest economic sectors in Canada are exporting raw materials to the US and government agencies….hmmm….where have all the Canadian fortune 500 companies gone? In our free healthcare system?… you be the judge....

[Jason]

Go buy a car, a computer, a robotic device, a heavy duty machine used for mining, a stereo system, a helicopter, a space shuttle, an air compressor, a table saw, a construction crane or anything else, and you will find that that most of the highest quality products were first invented in the United States or Japan, and traditionally these countries have been very libertarian/capitalist.

You need figures, such as patent and economic data, not hand waving. You haven't analyzed actual figures for these things have you? You're just going off vague feelings. Given that, adding the proviso "highest quality" seems to be merely an artefact of your emotional investment in this argument.

The reason why these countries are more favorable to economic growth is that the government is traditionally conservative and allows the free market to privatize as many services as possible as a means to keep taxes very low. True Capitalist societies also tend to remove all capital gains taxes from businesses as well. And Low taxes equals more profits for business, and more disposable income for individuals, which means more money is invested back into businesses for R&D in science/tech.

Where's the research and in depth analysis? As I said before, even if there is a correlation between more strictly capitalist nations and scientific and technological innovation, which apparently you have no hard evidence for anyway, it doesn't mean they are directly causally linked. There are innumerable hypothesis available such as: the US and Japan are two developed countries which simply have very large populations and this helps to foster investment in science and innovation, and will by sheer force of numbers produce more results.

Countries that are too liberal/socialist tend to overwhelm the free market with too many unnecessary government controlled services, too many regulations, too many hurtles for new businesses, which means less competition, and it is more difficult for companies to grow and turn a profit, as they have to pay out so much in taxes, annual fees, and they are far too regulated…

It's hurdles.

Think about this - The two biggest economic sectors in Canada are exporting raw materials to the US and government agencies….hmmm….where have all the Canadian fortune 500 companies gone? In our free healthcare system?… you be the judge....

That's not an argument, it proves absolutely zilch.

[Carl G]

Ryan wrote,

Go buy a car, a computer, a robotic device, a heavy duty machine used for mining, a stereo system, a helicopter, a space shuttle, an air compressor, a table saw, a construction crane or anything else, and you will find that that most of the highest quality products were first invented in the United States or Japan, and traditionally these countries have been very libertarian/capitalist.

I can't afford any of those things, in part because so many manufacturing jobs have been exported to socialist countries that my 'capitalist' economy is in the toilet. Plus the drain of wars that our capitalist 'defense' industries seem to demand. I will say our bombs are the best on earth.

[David Quinn]

David:

As I say, it depends on the quality of the individuals involved. For example, if everyone in a community was enlightened, then anarchy would probably be the natural outcome.

Anarchy (a free society) would also be the best choice if everyone is unenlightened. Think about it: if people are corrupt and egotistical, do you want to have a huge concentration of power in a government? Surely the most corrupt and power-hungry would be driven to assume that position of power.
Whereas, under freedom, everyone is their own sovereign ruler. They cannot seek domination over others.

The trouble is, even if a free society was magically created, things would only degenerate and revert back to how the world is today, unless the individuals members of that society were serious about their philosophical development and the elimination of their egos. As things stand, some people will want more and more for themselves; others will gullibly submit to being ripped-off and dominated; the haves and have-nots will separate into distinct groups; power will concentrate into increasingly fewer hands, and before you can say Jack Robinson, today's society will be up and running once again.

One more thing. In Wisdom of the Infinite, you wrote that if you are not enlightened and are experiencing reality, then it must be because of errors in your understanding.
In the same sense, how can you allow errors in understanding in the realm of social organization?
I suppose all I need to do is show that statism is irrational, and that a stateless society is based on reason.

The kind of errors I was talking about was in reference to misunderstandings of the nature of reality - which is easily the most important issue of all. Opinions on political matters is a different matter - here, the issue turns on what kind of values you have, what you would like to see occur in the future, etc.

-

[Ryan Rudolph]

Jason,

You need figures, such as patent and economic data, not hand waving. You haven't analyzed actual figures for these things have you? You're just going off vague feelings. Given that, adding the proviso "highest quality" seems to be merely an artefact of your emotional investment in this argument.

Reflect on your own experience, I don’t need to accumulate tons of empirical data to prove this argument. Think back to all of the advanced forms of technology you’ve ever bought, now think to yourself: how many of those devices were engineered in countries like France or Denmark….you will discover that most great companies originated in strong libertarian/conservative/capitalist nations such as The United States and Japan.

the US and Japan are two developed countries which simply have very large populations and this helps to foster investment in science and innovation, and will by sheer force of numbers produce more results.

If this argument were true than India and China should have the most advanced technologically advanced companies in the world, but they don’t. They don’t because their political systems are inferior to the US and Japan. The wrong political system can stifle economic growth. One extreme is a corrupt dictator that prevents the free market from operating, and the other danger is a middle ground between socialism and capitalism where the free market exists, but governments interfere through Wealth redistribution, massive 'unnecessary' government programs that could be handled by the free market, and rampant handouts to whoever yells the loudest, and this behavior is essentially a socialist mindset feeding off the fruits of a capitalist system, and it stifles technological/scientific progress in my opinion, whereas allowing the rich to keep most of their wealth and reinvest it back into their companies will accelerate technological progress, improve the standard of living, along with the income of the middle class.

Carl,

I can't afford any of those things, in part because so many manufacturing jobs have been exported to socialist countries that my 'capitalist' economy is in the toilet. Plus the drain of wars that our capitalist 'defense' industries seem to demand. I will say our bombs are the best on earth.

The American Military is one downfall of a technologically advanced nation, but the pros outweigh the cons in my opinion. America’s economic power has given birth to great creativity, but also great depravity. Such an economic force must always have a considerable shadow, as long as such a high number remain unintelligent. Moreover, the world is really hard on the US because they expect more from the nation. The US prides itself on being a moral and economic exemplar to the world, and they continually criticize human rights violations internationally, so other nations inevitably enjoy the pay back of catching American leaders in contradiction/hypocrisy.

[Faust]

it's also genetics silly.

[brokenhead]

Moreover, the world is really hard on the US because they expect more from the nation. The US prides itself on being a moral and economic exemplar to the world, and they continually criticize human rights violations internationally, so other nations inevitably enjoy the pay back of catching American leaders in contradiction/hypocrisy.

The "US" does no such thing.

It is simply easier for US politicians to point the finger to overseas human rights violations than it is to accomplish anything here. Elected officials want to appear to be concerned about human rights. "Elected" means "appearances are everything."

American leaders are steeped in hypocrisy and would gladly have the average American citizen overlook this fact. It is mere propaganda that makes the average citizen think the US is anything but as base and corrupted in its policies as just about any other nation, perhaps excepting North Korea and several African nations.

For instance, it was the spin doctors paid handsomely by the Bush Administration that sold us the notion of Hussein being a war criminal. Yet we had our own Civil War. And what makes him worse than Bush, who wages an undeclared war at the expense of now 4,000 US lives on a sovereign state on nothing more than some kind of personal vendetta? Bin Laden orchestrated the deaths of some 3,000 americans. So in retaliation, Bush orchestrates the deaths of 4,000 in a campaign against someone else who just happens to be in Bin Laden's part of the world?

The leaders of the US are too cynical to have pride. The administration is a sham. The sqawking about human rights in China is merely a way to divert attention from failed domestic policies, disjointed foreign policies, and military mistakes and misadventures.

[bert]

Politics!
Bah!

[Ryan Rudolph]

Settle down Brokenhead....I think you have an irrational hatred of the Bush Administration and their associated business partners...

its not that simple. The United States is still the global leader in foreign aid to developing countries, they also have the most humanitarian organizations than any other nation. Many rich Americans have dedicated their lives to helping developing countries abroad by setting up sustainable farming techniques, schools, hospitals, or simply installing drilled wells devoid of bacteria and viruses - and all these efforts are encouraged by the present administration, so It isn't as simple as labeling "America" as Evil and corrupt. It is a complicated government with both positive and negative attributes.

If you are unable to see the obvious positive aspects of American politics/economics, then it illustrates a neurotic hatred that should be reflected upon. The Iraq war has created a lot of suffering, but to react emotionally is to fail to see the whole through a more larger perspective.

The actions of this administration is nothing new, as America has had a long history of using military power to settle disputes, control natural resources, eliminate threats, form tangling alliances, and all the rest of it. However, the riches they have enjoyed for the last half century have produced some very high quality technology, western analytical philosophy, and science. Their military superiority could only emerge because of how innovative, resourceful, and liberating their political philosophy has been economically compared to the rest of the world. American exhibits a freedom of ideas that is vastly superior to a great number of nations...

Moreover, despite its negativity, America's imperial and military crudeness has given birth to an environment that fosters scientific creativity, and it is probably the law of the universe that this is how it should unfold - meaning - the big bull on the block will prick many with its horns, plow through the china shop, and see red most of the time, but in the trail it secures from its expanding its territory will result in a wealth that pokes through the ashes of destruction.

The expansion of Rome was both the best thing, and the worst thing that happened to the world at that time. It caused considerable suffering to millions of people, however the ones affected were usually living according to inferior ideologies and using inferior survival techniques... The expansion of Rome spread both democratic ideals, scientific ideas, philosophy, and superior survival techniques that have been refined and expanded upon since that time. Many of our present technological discoveries have been born through the empire of Rome.

America has the same sorts of gems as Rome did at that time. Besides Japan, America is unmatched with it comes to its high tech and science sector, and as a result other countries admire America's greatness, and strive to emulate it. And this is a benefit to the global economy and the future of humanity.

[Jason]

you will find that that most of the highest quality products were first invented in the United States or Japan, and traditionally these countries have been very libertarian/capitalist.

Go buy a car

Depending on how you define a car, and a variety of other factors, Wikipedia credits the invention of the automobile to one of the following: Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot(French), Ferdinand Verbiest(Flemish), Richard Trevithick(English)

a computer

Inventor: Charles Babbage, English.

a robotic device, a heavy duty machine used for mining, a stereo system

Difficult or impossible to ascribe a specific inventor because they are all so vague. You wanna tell me who invented them? What, you don't know? You just pulled a random list out of your arse? I'm shocked.

a helicopter

A long theoretical history, but Wikipedia claims the first actual flight was by Jacques and Louis Breguet, French.

a space shuttle

Egads! Socialist NASA!!! You're not even paying attention enough to realize that you threw in this example that conflicts with the point you are trying to make!

an air compressor, a table saw, a construction crane or anything else,

Who invented these? Honestly, can you tell me without looking it up? If you're gonna make these assertions you should do your homework to make sure you have a leg to stand on. That's what I've been trying to tell you from the start.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Jason,

Inventing is only one part of the picture, I’m also referring to what nations took the original inventions, and dumped enough money/research into them to create above average products compared to everyone else in the market. Moreover, my argument rests on the fact that United States and Japan have done this more aggressively than any other nation-state. And I’m suggesting that their political ideology allowed the free market to work properly, as businesses were able to grow unimpeded without government intervention…

Examples:

Sony
Panasonic
Nissan
Honda
Toyota
JVC
General Electric
Microsoft
Google
AMD
Intel

And other fortune 500 successes…

The United States prides itself over its technological sector, whereas countries like France and Denmark pride themselves over the fact that they have made life comfortable for everyone at the expense of the working class and scientific creativity.

Egads! Socialist NASA!!! You're not even paying attention enough to realize that you threw in this example that conflicts with the point you are trying to make!

I didn’t suggest that I was against a minimal sized conservative government investing money into science and technology with some agencies; I’m just against government reaching the size that they must borrow money from other countries, and inflate their own currency just to pay their annual bills…

One might say that America started off with very wise roots – conservatism and it has slowly grown into an unmanageable monster that is self-consuming itself.

All the great American companies may just have to migrate to Japan where taxes are low until after the economic collapse...

[JustinZijlstra]

Trevor:
Basically, what I'm saying is that if someone is truly dedicated to truth and reason then they must be a free market capitalist. It is the only rational position.
Now, we can prove this by several different lines of thought: -morality -utilitarianism -consistency etc.
Also, are you saying that logic is invalid because it doesn't rely on experience?

Logic is a subset of experience. Without it one is as ignorant as only with it.

Enlightenment with rationality. Or, rationality being steared on the enlightenment level without the frustrations of explaining it in terms of a game, one if enlightened and rational can create myths of the western kind (thus explained in the mental mold of the individual in question (persona))