Was Jesus Not Enlightened ?

[soham]

Jesus never talked of Self-realization. He was obsessed with Jehovah, himself, holy ghost, exorcism, healing, sin, salvation of humanity et cetera. He did not seem to have had experienced Absolute Awareness.

[Carl G]

Jesus may not even have historically existed. And it doesn't matter. If there are wise words indicating a path, then Jesus can be lauded as a trailblazer. The real issue is your enlightenment.

[brokenhead]

Jesus may not even have historically existed. And it doesn't matter. If there are wise words indicating a path, then Jesus can be lauded as a trailblazer. The real issue is your enlightenment.

Just out of curiosity, why do you allow that Jesus may not have existed? We might as well say it is possible that an historical Siddhārtha Gautama did not exist.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

We might as well say it is possible that an historical Siddhārtha Gautama did not exist.

Why do you say that? Most people here would agree it's entirely possible he didn't exist in any way that would be recognizable from the Buddhist literature, if at all.

All we have left are the words and a bit of the context. That's also why it can be more interesting to study people which have more solid historical or contemporary elements - detail - to their character. And yet, still one cannot always distill much from that when it comes to the truth value.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Jesus never talked of Self-realization. He was obsessed with Jehovah, himself, holy ghost, exorcism, healing, sin, salvation of humanity et cetera. He did not seem to have had experienced Absolute Awareness.

Not if Jehovah was meant as a way to conceptualize Totality or Tao, himself was meant as truth or homo sapiens, holy ghost meant as spirit or deep consciousness, exorcism as liberation, healing as walking the Path, sin meant as error and salvation as realization.

It's a bit more complicated than this, but it gives you an idea how to approach the phenomenon of the parable.

[DHodges]

Just out of curiosity, why do you allow that Jesus may not have existed?

http://www.bandoli.no/whyjesus.htm
http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
(For more info, google "Jesus didn't exist", or watch this movie)

The evidence for a historical Jesus is very slim. At the least, we'd expect him to have left some truly excellent examples of carpentry behind.

[snow bunny]

Jesus was a "myth"? I don't know if that's all you're going for with this one, but that's clearly one explanation for the idea that he didn't really "exist."

[brokenhead]

The evidence for a historical Jesus is very slim. At the least, we'd expect him to have left some truly excellent examples of carpentry behind.

You were expecting a videotape?

The evidence of any early historical figure is pretty slim, if that person was not an emperor or king with a likeness on coins, or a pharoah with enbalmed remains in an impossible mausoleum.

Do we know Abraham existed? Or Moses?

BTW, Jesus was a specialized carpenter. He was a shipbuilder.

I used to manage a major Asian art gallery in New York. The oldest wooden object I personally saw was a six-foot tall Japanese Kannon figure, Goddess of Mercy akin to the Chinese Kwan Yin. It was perhaps 1500 years old, and so worm-eaten that it was held together by big, ugly staples. It was a consignment piece, and the owner was asking $200K. I had it all but sold to the actor Richard Gere, but he backed out at the last minute due to the horrible condition. He could not get us to guarantee that the enivironment in his loft would not further deteriorate it.

The moral of the story is: ancient wooden artifacts survive by accident, if at all.

[DHodges]

BTW, Jesus was a specialized carpenter. He was a shipbuilder.

Where do you get that from? As far as I can see, there is only the one Bible verse (Mark 6:3) referring to him as a carpenter, and even that is somewhat ambiguous. Matthew 13:55 only refers to him as the son of a carpenter.

[Dan Rowden]

Jesus never talked of Self-realization. He was obsessed with Jehovah, himself, holy ghost, exorcism, healing, sin, salvation of humanity et cetera. He did not seem to have had experienced Absolute Awareness.

Was it really Jesus that was obsessed with most of those things, or was it the Gospel writers?

[David Quinn]

Here is an interesting article which gives a different slant on things:

Was Moses high on psychedelic drugs?

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[Diebert van Rhijn]

That news article pulled of the amazing feat of suggesting that because an entheogenic drug-related experience can be much like a religious experience, that any vivid religious experiences is most probably drug-related. However, what is hard to deny is that entheogenics have been used in most spiritual traditions to open up pathways, to get shocked into new realizations or perspectives. Nowadays it's all mere entertainment though, which is telling.

It would be more interesting to question the existence of Moses and the origins of the Exodus as theme; why the movement between being alien and traveling to a promised land is such an universal one which had to culminate in Christian more explicit symbols too. But the article seems to rather look for ways for Moses to be literal than to be meaningful.

[brokenhead]

BTW, Jesus was a specialized carpenter. He was a shipbuilder.

Where do you get that from? As far as I can see, there is only the one Bible verse (Mark 6:3) referring to him as a carpenter, and even that is somewhat ambiguous. Matthew 13:55 only refers to him as the son of a carpenter.

From Part IV of the Urantia Book.

[brokenhead]

Here is an interesting article which gives a different slant on things:

Was Moses high on psychedelic drugs?

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Not impossible by any means. I read a book with a similar theme: The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and Origins of Christianity within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near East by John Marco Allegro (1970). Allegro is a semanticist and proposes an intricate support for his belief that the cross was a secret symbol for the Amanita Muscaria mushroom. The argument is scholarly, but you would have to know Latin, Greek, and Aramaic if you wanted to quibble with it, which I don't (know those languages or want to quibble.)

[soham]

Sometimes I feel all religions are fraud perpetrated on gullible mankind and that all prophets are impostors. Genuine teachers are very few. A genuine master will only be interested in guiding others to their own inner selves where the Supreme Truth dwells.

[Steven Coyle]

Just viewed this:

Daiju visited the master Baso in China. Baso asked: "What do you seek?"

"Enlightenment," replied Daiju.

"You have your own treasure house. Why do you search outside?" Baso asked.

Daiju inquired: "Where is my treasure house?"

Baso answered: "What you are asking is your treasure house."

Daiju was enlightened! Ever after he urged his friends: "Open your own tresure house and use those treasures."

[soham]

There are many who are more enlightened and more evolved than Buddha, Jesus and other prophets. Only thing is that they don't hanker after cheap popularity & publicity and that they remain self-contented. Their very presence uplifts humanity.

[David Quinn]

Do you have any specific examples, Soham?

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[soham]

Do you have any specific examples, Soham?

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Following names are some that I know :-

Bodhidharma, Padmasambhava, Nanak, Kabir, Radhasoami masters, Ramakrishna & Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Yogananda, Ramana Maharishi, Poonja aka Papaji, Nisargadatta, Mahesh Yogi, Osho Rajneesh, Pranic Healing Grand-Master Choa Kok Sui, hypnotherapists Dr. Bruce Goldberg, Dolores Cannon and Dr. Brian Weiss, Sri Sri Ravi Shanker et cetera.

[David Quinn]

I don't know many of the names there, but some of the ones I do know are strange. Vivekenanda, for example, was surely no more than a mediocre popularizer of Ramakrishna, just as St. Paul was of Jesus.

I was intrigued by your inclusion of Osho. Do you really believe that he didn't seek cheap publicity and popularity, both in India and America? And what about his self-containment, which clearly wasn't developed enough to stop him from sliding into drug-addiction, sexual orgies, bitterness against the American authorities and the appointment of psychotic disciples?

As I say, a strange choice. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning here.

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[Burn0neDown]

Here is an interesting article which gives a different slant on things:

Was Moses high on psychedelic drugs?

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IMO, this article is ridiculous. I have done enough psychedelics to know that they do not create the kind of hallucinations that this article implies. There are hallucinations, but they are natural forms, tracers, ect appearing on stimuli ALREADY present in the environment. Psychedelic drugs do not create physical objects in the environment. You do not see things like pink elephants that popular culture will have you believe. It also won't create a voice that isn't there. But yea you do see music, only created by synesthesia.

Granted I haven't tried all psychedelics, I have read many reports about ayahausca (the psychedelic used by many amazon individuals). I wouldn't expect it to produce anything that is described in the article.

The only psychedelic that I think could have any vague possibility of producing a burning bush and a message from the voice of god is DMT. I have read descriptions of the experience producing a presence of entities and what wiki describes as "percieved extensions of reality". Though DMT exists in nature, I still think it would be a long shot. Perhaps the bush was already burning and Moses was a schizophrenic. I think it would be more rational to assume that it is fabricated story. Either way the belief in eternal life contradicts every fact and piece of evidence that humans have accumulated.


Back on topic: I don't think Jesus would have been enlightened in the context you describe. His belief appears to be much more mythical, though it may be obscured by oral tradition.

It certainly doesn't apply to Buddhist context, which contradicts the soul and eternal life.

[soham]

Vivekenanda, for example, was surely no more than a mediocre popularizer of Ramakrishna, just as St. Paul was of Jesus.

I was intrigued by your inclusion of Osho.

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Vivekananda created Vedanta Society in USA which helped many people to come out of primitive religious beliefs and learn about non-dualism. He also established various centres all over the globe to disseminate non-dualistic philosophy.
Osho, though outwardly ugly, was enlightened at the core. He had affection for humanity at heart. He is not to be taken at his surface value. His aim in introducing orgies for his followers was to get all their desires & fantasies fulfilled. His philosophy was to take sexual desires as a challenge rather than escaping such desires ( as in christianity, for example ) with the ultimate aim of transcending them.

[David Quinn]

So what do you make of the legal disputes and gun battles in Oregon in the 1980's, and his appointment of the psychotic Sheela as his chief disciple and spokesperson who drove these events along?

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[soham]

So what do you make of the legal disputes and gun battles in Oregon in the 1980's, and his appointment of the psychotic Sheela as his chief disciple and spokesperson who drove these events along?
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Osho encouraged one and all to become his disciples which caused so many unregenerate persons to become important members in the commune. There were clashes of egos which resulted in discords and violence.
When sheela's negative activities exceeded certain limit, she was disowned & removed.

[Steven]

Jesus never talked of Self-realization. He was obsessed with Jehovah, himself, holy ghost, exorcism, healing, sin, salvation of humanity et cetera. He did not seem to have had experienced Absolute Awareness.

Was it really Jesus that was obsessed with most of those things, or was it the Gospel writers?

Irrespective of Christs existence and of His message, no one can expect the work to be untainted.

If Lao Tzu existed and did not write his little book, would he matter to any of us?

If he did not exist, and his works came from elsewhere, does he still matter to any of us?

What relevance does the enlightenment of others have? Does the enlightenment they claim to have, or that you conclude they have matter more than your interpretation of their words? What more can any person be, enlightened or unenlightened, other than the finger pointing towards the moon?