Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
brokenhead
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by brokenhead »

Jason wrote:
David Quinn wrote:I've always found it helpful in the past to visualize what it is like to be a Buddha - in other words, imagine what it is like to be completely free, unattached, joyful, unperturbed, simple, clear, insightful, pure and formless. Even if you don't really know what these terms mean in an enlightened sense, visualizing them in your own way can still propel you closer to the goal.
It must be hard imagining that enlightenment is both utterly devoid of emotions and joyful.
Not really, though. Emotions can be thought of as the stress caused by attachment to things, even and maybe especially, ideas and notions. Emotions without exception are internal. So is everything else, once you understand that the ego interacts with internal representations of everything it considers to be external. This is not to deny that external things, e.g., people, exist - it is just that our reactions to and interactions with them are always internal. When attachments can be systematically isolated and released - even temporarily - through meditation or medication - the tension vanishes. It is unwinding from the mortal coil. Yet the ego necessarily persists, only sans all the baggage. That feeling is pure joy and like nothing else. Since it is like nothing else, it truly is ineffable. Because any word you could attach to it would be just that - something attached to it, which would start weighing it down all over again.

It is a slippery slope. When in that state, why would you want to come back? Not everyone does.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

Jason wrote:
David Quinn wrote:I've always found it helpful in the past to visualize what it is like to be a Buddha - in other words, imagine what it is like to be completely free, unattached, joyful, unperturbed, simple, clear, insightful, pure and formless. Even if you don't really know what these terms mean in an enlightened sense, visualizing them in your own way can still propel you closer to the goal.
It must be hard imagining that enlightenment is both utterly devoid of emotions and joyful.
Joyful in an enlightened sense - free of care, unburdened, without fear, in tune with the basic impulse of Nature. Free of the anxieties of happiness.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

David Quinn wrote:Free of the anxieties of happiness.
The what? If it has anxieties enmeshed in it, that isn't really happiness. It might be giddiness, a thrill, or something like that, but it is not happiness.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by maestro »

I've always found it helpful in the past to visualize what it is like to be a Buddha - in other words, imagine what it is like to be completely free, unattached, joyful, unperturbed, simple, clear, insightful, pure and formless. Even if you don't really know what these terms mean in an enlightened sense, visualizing them in your own way can still propel you closer to the goal.
Yes that is pretty much the driving force for anyone seeking enlightenment, a promise of infinite happiness as I argued in my thread on the pain pleasure principle, whereas Samadhi kept on harping that it is the innate desire for truth (regardless of pain) that guides the seeker.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

Seeking happiness in truth is usually the basic starting point for anyone becoming serious about enlightenment.

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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

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Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Free of the anxieties of happiness.
The what? If it has anxieties enmeshed in it, that isn't really happiness. It might be giddiness, a thrill, or something like that, but it is not happiness.
Even the greatest happiness contains elements of anxiety and insecurity. At the very least, a person entering into happiness immediately begins to worry about how long it will last and whether he can prolong it.

It is a legacy of seeking happiness in the first place. A person wants and seeks happiness, and when he achieves it he doesn't want to let it go. So he experiences suffering even in the midst of his happiness.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

If a person even began to worry about his happiness the moment he had any, that would be a pathological anxiety disorder. Anxiety and happiness are not linked, even in the unenlightened individual - and not worrying about one's happiness does not indicate they don't have enough of a mind to worry about it. It may be that they don't think about losing that happiness at that time, or it may be that while they are experiencing the happiness, the impermanence does not matter to them. Although one may have mixed emotional states as you have described, these are mixing of anxiety and happiness - hence the two words for the two emotional states. H=H - not H=H+A

Happiness is contentment plus that sensation that tends to make people smile. H=C+S
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Jamesh
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Jamesh »

Trevor started the thread with
That, given the historical context wherein Buddha (and, in the West, Thales) taught, the term "enlightenment" refers to a new structure of thought that quickly dominated all other thought patterns. That is to say, pre-Buddhist thought was superstitious, mystical, and non-introspective, and was the result of large-scale illiteracy and a lack of anything we could meaningfully call "education". With 3 millenia between the emergence of early enlightened thinkers and now, and given all the changes in education, technology, and social structure, practically everyone meets the requirements of the perfect enlightenment that was so fresh to the minds of early historic thinkers.
Re "a new structure of thought" - I see enlightenment as a shift in reasoning from the point of view of things, into a more general logical form of reasoning. It is widening one's mental focus to the whole, rather than the parts - though enlightenment can only come about with a knowingness of the nature of the parts.

There are two ways to look at individuals in the modern world, and the last few thousand years for that matter, and that is that either that to them the parts distract from the whole, as Dan said, or that disillusionment about the parts, causes a desire to know the whole.

We humans are blessed, in an evolutionary sense, with the emotion of boredom, which creates fairly continuous disillusionment with the parts. One also can be enlightened by being free of this boredom, as when one is no longer egotistically associated with the parts, then the nature of the whole may become more apparent.

Eventually, amongst the masses, technology will spread a disillusionment with the parts. Maslow's self-actualisation peak will become more and more desired. This is long way off - should we survive that is. Most of the worlds population still must concern themselves with how to get to a position where the provision of food, housing and health will be obtainable for the foreseeable future. Irrational consumption will only really be diminishable when such consumption hurts those persons whom hold the reigns of power, too much. Rational consumption would mean the world populations basic needs could readily be met. At such time peoples attention will gradually move to the higher plane of self-actualisation.

In the shorter term, much depends on just how robotic business makes workers become. Global communications has and will spread even more a sameness of opinion across the globe - and that opinion is that materialism and consumption are good.

The materialistic desire is immensely powerful, because it grants the power of freedom of choice. Like any form though, and a change in material wealth is just a change in form, such "greater freedom" is still completely bound, one just shifts the goal posts, one has more freedom only in the sense of being able to roam a larger area. The same applies to enlightenment, but in learning the capability of thinking in a holistic manner, then the boundaries of such bound forms may shatter - where is the boundary of infinity?

I already feel a general sense across wealthy countries of a disillusionment with things. What is more important is the game, the competition. The disillusionment in things is mostly hidden. It is not something discussed in depth between various differentiated groups. The powerful don't talk about it - they just play the game harder. It is also immensely habitual to think that new things will give us joy - they generally do, for a time. Many people do see the shallowness in this pursuit, but they do not pursue it philosophically. Tightly organised community and national structures prevent people from feeling capable of making a real difference in relation to irrational consumption.

I do have some hope, though. The old saying "familiarity breeds contempt", in relation to this post, means that boredom resulting from the lack of lasting satisfaction with a marriage to materialism, could induce a desire for divorce from that game, and may lead more people to wisdom, if they can move spiritually past the new ager scavengers, encircling the masses. This is a reason why enlightenment requires knowledge of things - through comparing things one can assess what is real and what is not. It is also a reason why globalised ownership of media organisations is so very dangerous. While communications technology does allow for a variety of media, and independent media such as this forum, real knowledge will only come to those who learn to seek it, and global media and business generally could prevent this for most people. They already do, don't they. It is akin to being under the control of some state or community majority religion, in both the opportunity to think with freedom, to stretch the boundaries of the mind are significantly reduced for nearly everyone.
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sue hindmarsh
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by sue hindmarsh »

James,

But even if people give up their material things, they just collect this new thing of giving up their material things, and then they’ll be attached to giving up the thing of giving up, and then they’ll have to give up the giving up the giving up…whew!! Sounds like a horrible web to become entangled in - as well as being far too much like hard work to me.

Quicker just to realize the non-inherent existence of the self. It saves all that giving up business - because 'things' and 'you' were never yours to begin with.
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Jamesh
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

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For me though, the giving up of the self is not something I desire. My memory gives me temporariness, and I hold on to my self by the knowledge that while I am conscious my memory of self and ability to think are inherent. The pattern that gives me consciousnes is determined by everything that is not my awareness. If something cannot be other than what it is, then it is inherent.

My self, though temporary, is inherent, an inherent pulse of reality, a temporarily lasting process within reality. Our consciousnesses really exist in a wave process - the major wave is the build up to consciouness, to the peak of mental fitness, to the decline through age, to the ultimate low of death, with daily lows of conscious death or near death in sleep, and during the day conscious/unconscious flows in waves with a myriad of lesser peaks and troughs of clear thinking to unconscious reacting.
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sue hindmarsh
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by sue hindmarsh »

James,

You wrote:
I hold on to my self by the knowledge that while I am conscious my memory of self and ability to think are inherent.
What you have written undoes your idea that you have an inherently existent self, for you write that you hold on to the idea (a 'thing') of a self by the knowledge (also, a 'thing'), and that while you are conscious (another 'thing'), of your memory (yet another 'thing') - AND all these things you depend on for this self of yours to exist inherently! Well, obviously it isn't an inherently existing self at all - it's obviously a very, very dependent one!
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by brokenhead »

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:James,

You wrote:
I hold on to my self by the knowledge that while I am conscious my memory of self and ability to think are inherent.
What you have written undoes your idea that you have an inherently existent self, for you write that you hold on to the idea (a 'thing') of a self by the knowledge (also, a 'thing'), and that while you are conscious (another 'thing'), of your memory (yet another 'thing') - AND all these things you depend on for this self of yours to exist inherently! Well, obviously it isn't an inherently existing self at all - it's obviously a very, very dependent one!
I keep seeing this notion that the self is inherently nonexistent. I'm sure it has been discussed at length elsewhere at GF or something linked to it. Could someone post a link here that will cut through the crap and give me a well-constructed "proof" of this assertion? Offhand, it seems to be some sort of crutch QRSH and their believers keep falling back on to "demonstrate" the truth of other points. In math, this would be something of a theorem, or even more basic, an axiom. I'd rather not repeat objections if they have been dealt with satifactorily elsewhere.
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

Brokenhead wrote:
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"I keep seeing this notion that the self is inherently nonexistent. I'm sure it has been discussed at length elsewhere at GF or something linked to it. Could someone post a link here that will cut through the crap and give me a well-constructed "proof" of this assertion? Offhand, it seems to be some sort of crutch QRSH and their believers keep falling back on to "demonstrate" the truth of other points. In math, this would be something of a theorem, or even more basic, an axiom. I'd rather not repeat objections if they have been dealt with satifactorily elsewhere."
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Brokenhead,
There is no "proof" that enlightenment is realization that the personal "self" is non-existebnt. But there is a long history of testimony to that point in many traditions.
I shared a piece on the "atman" and a link to my teacher's site citing quotes to that point from several traditions in my last substantive post to Laird in the "Forget About Enlightenment" thread on 2/16, mostly transcribed below for your convenience:
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Laird,
Just checked in... gotta go soon, but I suggest you study some Advaita Vedanta for background on "selflessness." I do not "belong" to any religion/tradition, but have come to selflessness independently (see my site) but with the excellent guidance of my teacher, Joel Morwood ...
(see his site,www.centerforsacredsciences.org )

Here is a quickie, tho from Wiki's section on the Atman:
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"The soul or the self (Atman) is identical with Brahman. It is not a part of Brahman that ultimately dissolves into Brahman, but the whole Brahman itself. Now the arguers ask how the individual soul, which is limited and one in each body, can be the same as Brahman? Adi Shankara explains that the Self is not an individual concept. Atman is only one and unique. Indeed Atman alone is {Ekaatma Vaadam}. It is a false concept that there are several Atmans {Anekaatma Vaadam}. Adi Shankara says that just as the same moon appears as several moons on its reflections on the surface of water covered with bubbles, the one Atman appears as multiple atmans in our bodies because of Maya. Atman is self-proven, however, some proofs are discussed—eg., a person says "I am blind", "I am happy", "I am fat" etc. The common and constant factor, which permeates all these statements is the "I" which is but the Immutable Consciousness. When the blindness, happiness, fatness are inquired and negated, "I" the common factor which, indeed, alone exists in all three states of consciousness and in all three periods of time, shines forth. This proves the existence of Atman, and that Consciousness, Reality and Bliss are its characteristics. Atman, being the silent witness of all the modifications, is free and beyond sin and merit. It does not experience happiness or pain because it is beyond the triad of Experiencer, Experienced and Experiencing. It does not do any Karma because it is Aaptakaama. It is incorporeal and independent.
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Here is a link to the "Selflessness" section on the Center for Sacred Sciences site:
http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/ ... l#selfless
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Hope you find the above, especially the several quotes in the link, enterestiing and informative.

mikiel
mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

Oops... the link dropped the 'selflessness' part of the address. Will try again.
http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/ ... l#selfless
mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

Dan Rowden wrote:I'm struggling thus far to see the correlation between finite knowledge, in whatever form it manifests, and enlightenment. I'm not convinced that modern life necessary makes us more (or less) amenable to an enlightened vision. We probably have more things, quantitatively, to think about and be distracted by, but in the end each day for each historical group seems full of finite considerations that draw our attention away from the infinite. Modern education exists for the benefit of - and as a result of - modern technological needs; I don't think it makes us incrementally more enlightened, or takes us incrementally closer to being so.
Dan,
True. Omnisience is not an issue for enlightenment. It's not about what we know but knowing our cosmic identity (gnosis)... the I Am ... same One in all of us.

This is a consant misconception about enlightenment I see in all forums where "this one" participates. The use of "I" is such a semantic obstacle to understanding...

"I", Who... was the mantra which drove "me" insane and liberated "me" from the illusion of "me"... the identity 'separate from God.'
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

I've heard that getting drunk is a pretty good way of forgetting the illusion of "I" too.

Best not talk about that, though. How about we just say it's all God's fault and leave it at that?

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mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

David Quinn wrote:I've heard that getting drunk is a pretty good way of forgetting the illusion of "I" too.

Best not talk about that, though. How about we just say it's all God's fault and leave it at that?

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But seriously folks.... I don't know of anyone who advocates getting shit-faced drunk as a Path to enlightenment.
You've got yourself a little strawman here David.
And if you think enlightenment is defined in terms of Puritan moral "virtues"... you have no idea.

Personal enjoyment is not forbidden. Where, for instance, would you draw the line in matters of moderate drinking or eating just a little more that necessary for survival, just cuz it tastes good?
Hmmm... Wonder how the Buddha got that big belly!

Happy St. Pat's Day, all. A toast to Life, Love, Enlightenment... and enjoying celebration in moderation.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Dan Rowden »

That advertisement brought to you buy the Coca Cola® company, or maybe Budweiser®.
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Tomas
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Tomas »

Dan Rowden wrote:That advertisement brought to you buy the Coca Cola® company, or maybe Budweiser®.
Thanks, Dan, .. haven't had a Coke since the Army circa 1971.

The occasional pitcher of Bud, though. I like raw beer..

.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

mikiel wrote: Personal enjoyment is not forbidden.
What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?

What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?

Happy St. Pat's Day, all. A toast to Life, Love, Enlightenment... and enjoying celebration in moderation.
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.

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Sapius
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Sapius »

David wrote:What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?
Well, his foundation lie in his individuality; in an individual Self that yearns for self-satisfaction, be it even the enjoyment found in a profound realization that the “I is illusory” or that I am “I-less”; not even a Buddha could escape that.

However, if one claims to be ‘I-less’, I’m ok with taking his word for it, since I could never really know in any case, and hence it does not really matter to me. But I am an I, and it is absolutely real, irrelevant of its dependency on all that it is not. Dependency does not make it any more illusory or any less real than absolutely anything at all.
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.
An I-less like and dislike? Sure…
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by maestro »

"What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment? "
Well even if the illusion of I is pierced, there is still pain and pleasure. So there is foundation for enjoyment, maybe not personal. There is pleasure in moving away from the hot humid outside to the cool dry air conditioned home.
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Sapius »

maestro wrote:There is pleasure in moving away from the hot humid outside to the cool dry air conditioned home.
OR… one could always be quite satisfied and “happy” with the thought that perspiration is reality too, so why do I need a blooming air conditioner... and drown his underpants in sweat… that is if one cares enough to wear one if it is really hot, humid, sticky... and all itchy in the "right" places.

Mind you, that is not a joke. An I-less could reason it so, and hence we find those sitting up high in the Himalayan mountain range who do not even care for a room; not bathing for months at a time, all in the name of an I-less I. However, one could always argue against that life style by justifying ones own Moon so to speak.

Ultimately... each to his own.... O! what a wonderful world!
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by maestro »

"OR… one could always be quite satisfied and “happy” with the thought that perspiration is reality too, so why do I need a blooming air conditioner... and drown his underpants in sweat… that is if one cares enough to wear one if it is really hot, humid, sticky... and all itchy in the "right" places."
But that is again obtaining psychological gratification through thoughts, not an escape from pleasure eh?
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by maestro »

"OR… one could always be quite satisfied and “happy” with the thought that perspiration is reality too, so why do I need a blooming air conditioner... and drown his underpants in sweat… that is if one cares enough to wear one if it is really hot, humid, sticky... and all itchy in the "right" places."
But that is again obtaining psychological gratification through thoughts, not an escape from pleasure eh? Same holds true for these austere mountain guys.
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