Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

David Quinn wrote:
mikiel wrote: Personal enjoyment is not forbidden.
What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?

What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?

Happy St. Pat's Day, all. A toast to Life, Love, Enlightenment... and enjoying celebration in moderation.
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.

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Seems this bears repeating:
And if you think enlightenment is defined in terms of Puritan moral "virtues"... you have no idea.
If you think enlightenment requires an ascetic life, you are wrong. If you read the biographies of enlightened ones, the personal habits of most don't necessarily change much, at least not immediately. But there is an absolute freedom to change or not, as one is no longer attached to the personal programs as "set in stone."
My teacher (Joel Morwood's) favorite "character" is "Zorba the Greek" and Joel throws an annual "enlightenment day" celebration that goes beyond the limits of moderation... once a year anyway.
You could broaden your horizons... and definition of enlightenment by studying his site and the "E" material he offers.
Truth is the Universal "I" (the "I Am" in all) enjoys life as/in/through this individual infinitely more now than when "i" suffered the ubiquitious illusion of "me in here; not-me out there."
The Eastern model for enlightenment is still primarily the ascetic sadhu, but the West has a different model... the enlightened householder. The model is not important. It is the realization of this Omnipresnt Consciousness as True Identity. The result is universal love, service according to what presents itself to do, or what inspiration arises... and full-on living both in joyful mode and compassionate service to alleviate suffering.
This is Truth-as-I-know it. Others' versions of Truth may be different, but the fundamental gnosis of unity in identity with the Divine will be the same in all cases of enlightenment.

mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by samadhi »

David,
I've heard that getting drunk is a pretty good way of forgetting the illusion of "I" too.
Becoming unconscious is the way most people deal with the stress of being an "I". That doesn't work, witness all the pain involved for those who take that route. Becoming more conscious is the way of evolution, not less. When you go with evolution instead of against it, things become much easier.
What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?
Are you saying you cannot enjoy anything without being attached to it? I hope not.
What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?
What about his/her own nature? Isn't there enjoyment in doing what comes naturally for you?
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.
It doesn't mean an ascetic life is for everyone.
sorbus
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by sorbus »

Enlightenment must be constant for it to be enlightenment, everything which comes from enlightentment must also be a constant. No thought is neccesssary to achieve enlightment. Enlightened thought does not dominate thought patterns, "superstitious, mystical, and non-introspective" is still a norm of behaviour on the planet. The only thing which changes is the paradigm of seeking enlightenment. Can the enlightenment of 1 person bring on the enlightenment of another? No, but it will make others aware of it. Whilst the belief is that enlightenment is something to achieve, it will not be recognised, that enlightened is what we already are.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

mikiel wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
mikiel wrote: Personal enjoyment is not forbidden.
What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?

What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?

Happy St. Pat's Day, all. A toast to Life, Love, Enlightenment... and enjoying celebration in moderation.
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.

-
Seems this bears repeating:
And if you think enlightenment is defined in terms of Puritan moral "virtues"... you have no idea.

Puritan moral values have nothing to do with it. I'm simply examining the matter logically.

If you think enlightenment requires an ascetic life, you are wrong.

At the very least, and by your own admission, it requires the renunciation of the I-illusion. So it is certainly an ascetic life, at least with regards to the "I". We're currently examining what this form of asceticism means.

If you read the biographies of enlightened ones, the personal habits of most don't necessarily change much, at least not immediately. But there is an absolute freedom to change or not, as one is no longer attached to the personal programs as "set in stone."
If the I-illusion has truly disappeared, then by rights, every single action motivated by a belief in the I-illusion would never arise again. This would imply a sudden drastic change of lifestyle on all levels. Most of the things you used to do when believing in the I-illusion would no longer occur to you to do.

If there is little or no change in your behaviour, then it would imply that the I-illusion hasn't really disappeared and your belief that it has is mistaken.

The Eastern model for enlightenment is still primarily the ascetic sadhu, but the West has a different model... the enlightened householder. The model is not important. It is the realization of this Omnipresnt Consciousness as True Identity. The result is universal love, service according to what presents itself to do, or what inspiration arises... and full-on living both in joyful mode and compassionate service to alleviate suffering.
mikiel
If that was the case, then why would you need to keep seeking little enjoyments in things? It would be like seeking to light candles in the middle of a sunny day.

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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

samadhi wrote:David,
I've heard that getting drunk is a pretty good way of forgetting the illusion of "I" too.
Becoming unconscious is the way most people deal with the stress of being an "I". That doesn't work, witness all the pain involved for those who take that route. Becoming more conscious is the way of evolution, not less.

True.

When you go with evolution instead of against it, things become much easier.

In a way, yes; in a way, no. When a person evolves beyond the society in which he resides, he begins to encounter opposition from the less-evolved, who perceive him as a threat. Facing this sort of thing is always tough, even for the more evolved person, but it is made easier by his own spiritual strength.

samadhi wrote:
What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?
Are you saying you cannot enjoy anything without being attached to it? I hope not.

Why seek crumbs on the floor when a great banquet at the table is always there to be had?

samadhi wrote:
What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?
What about his/her own nature? Isn't there enjoyment in doing what comes naturally for you?
Yes, but such an enjoyment is constant and not dependent on any circumstance in particular. The enlightened person is high on life itself.

samadhi wrote:
A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.
It doesn't mean an ascetic life is for everyone.
Everybody engages in ascetic living in one form or another. For example, to live contentedly in an un-evolved state is to renounce the path of evolution.

The kind of renunciation needed to become more evolved is the renunciation of false thinking and behaviour. I agree this form of asceticism isn't for everyone.

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mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

Sorry for the 10 day delay. I replied once to this post but it didn't "go"... tech glitch during the site change i suppose.
I'll respond (again) in context below, bold.


m:Personal enjoyment is not forbidden.
DQ:What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc) or the temporary escaping from it (drugs, alcohol, TV, good food, etc)?
Even... especially after the illusion of separate self vanishes, joy is experienced, but it is transformed from "personal" enjoyment into "transpersonal" joy experienced in/by/through the awakened individual.

DQ:What is there for an I-less individual to enhance, or run away from? Where are the foundations for his personal enjoyment?
Nothing to run from, no one to seek "enhancement."
As above... personal "me" exposed as illusion, yet experience as an individual still happening.


m:Happy St. Pat's Day, all. A toast to Life, Love, Enlightenment... and enjoying celebration in moderation.

DQ:A life of moderation is far too extreme for my liking.

m:Seems this bears repeating:
And if you think enlightenment is defined in terms of Puritan moral "virtues"... you have no idea. [/quote]
Puritan moral values have nothing to do with it. I'm simply examining the matter logically.


m:If you think enlightenment requires an ascetic life, you are wrong.
DQ: At the very least, and by your own admission, it requires the renunciation of the I-illusion. So it is certainly an ascetic life, at least with regards to the "I". We're currently examining what this form of asceticism means.

Who do you think renounces after the "me" illusion is gone? The separate "I" is and always has been an illusion. Awakening is exactly as from a dream... = that illusion. No renunciation involved, anymore that the one awakening "renounces" the dream. One just realizes that it was a dream... not 'waking reality.'

m:If you read the biographies of enlightened ones, the personal habits of most don't necessarily change much, at least not immediately. But there is an absolute freedom to change or not, as one is no longer attached to the personal programs as "set in stone."

DQ: If the I-illusion has truly disappeared, then by rights, every single action motivated by a belief in the I-illusion would never arise again. This would imply a sudden drastic change of lifestyle on all levels. Most of the things you used to do when believing in the I-illusion would no longer occur to you to do.

Naturally, egocentric motivation and its behaviour change. This does not mean that nothing is like it was before, but that it is all transformed.... realizing that it was the Divine all along Who was and always is the animating life force, the actual consciousness/identity of each individual. Awakening is realizing this. My ego-based habits did change, but your idea of rununciation is all based on your sense of personal "self", the ego who must "renounce" all "indulgences." It happens by grace, not by the illusion of personal effort.

DQ: If there is little or no change in your behaviour, then it would imply that the I-illusion hasn't really disappeared and your belief that it has is mistaken.

True. But the "Divine playing through" after enlightenment takes as many forms as there are enlightened individuals. Your idea of what behaviors are valid for an enlightened one and which are not is bogus and completely dependent on your obviously very asceticly based system of values and virtues... which have nada to do with enliughtenment.

m: The Eastern model for enlightenment is still primarily the ascetic sadhu, but the West has a different model... the enlightened householder. The model is not important. It is the realization of this Omnipresnt Consciousness as True Identity. The result is universal love, service according to what presents itself to do, or what inspiration arises... and full-on living both in joyful mode and compassionate service to alleviate suffering.
mikiel
DQ: If that was the case, then why would you need to keep seeking little enjoyments in things? It would be like seeking to light candles in the middle of a sunny day.

Why do you assume that "this guy" (the old "I" dodge) "seeks little enjoyments in things?" Joy happens quite naturally. Like I'll be on a lake in a boat with all 5 of my grandkids, and we are all having a great time! Why would "I" seek such enjoyment?... Well, it just happens as part of the 25th or so annual whole family campout to that lake... and joy just happens all over the place!

More recently, I've been in ecstatic union with God (as always) and Nature (not two!) out at my Center since my last post here. I was made First Trustee of the 80 acre land trust without "seeking" the position. It was given/bestowed by the Trust Benefactor without any "seeking" on "my part", because he saw that I would be the perfect, selfless steward in charge of the land and community development.


Hoping this serves as intended... clarification of how "this one" experiences "E."
mikiel
This is not posting, prompting: "You may embed only 3 quotes within each other."...
So I'm deleting the quote frames.... back to edit in speaker designations.
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Faust
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Faust »

David Quinn wrote:What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc)
how is success, and achievement in life the enhancement of the "I-illusion"? What is the I-illusion and why is it an illusion? What does the illusion signify?
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Faust
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Faust »

still waiting for your reply David.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

Faust13 wrote:
David Quinn wrote:What is personal enjoyment but the enhancement of the I-illusion (success, conquering, achievement, etc)
how is success, and achievement in life the enhancement of the "I-illusion"? What is the I-illusion and why is it an illusion? What does the illusion signify?
The I-illusion is the belief that one really exists in an independent manner. It is an illusion because no such entity exists.

When a person achieves something and basks in feelings of triumph, satisfaction, relief, etc, he is reveling in the perception that he was the one who achieved it, that he has become more powerful, that he will be praised and honoured by others, that his future will become brighter, and so on. He believes that his "I", which is a fiction, has become stronger and more secure.

The existence of the I-illusion signifies that it was a very important conceptual tool during the evolution of our species, but I believe we are now intelligent and capable enough to do without it.

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Faust
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Faust »

David Quinn wrote:The I-illusion is the belief that one really exists in an independent manner. It is an illusion because no such entity exists.
what kind of independence are you talking about?

what's the purpose of saying this? What comes of it? Nothing.
When a person achieves something and basks in feelings of triumph, satisfaction, relief, etc, he is reveling in the perception that he was the one who achieved it
we may be determined and have no freewill, but this isn't a reason NOT to do important achievements.
that he has become more powerful, that he will be praised and honoured by others, that his future will become brighter, and so on.
many people who have achieved don't want to be more "powerful," whatever that means...Why would achievement not make one's future brighter?
He believes that his "I", which is a fiction, has become stronger and more secure.
Many people don't do achievement to become "stronger," whatever that means...
but I believe we are now intelligent and capable enough to do without it.
yes we don't need the I-illusion to make significant achievements
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mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

Hey David,
Are you avoiding my reply of 3/30 or did it fall through the cracks?
Seems like a consistent M.O. for you to ignore my posts as a way of letting the issues pass. My reply, as always, is the truth of enlightenment from mikiel's perspective. You've brushed me off before. Why?
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

It is my spontaneous pleasure to do so.
Being I-less, there is no choice in the matter.
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
Who am I to argue with this?

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Faust
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Faust »

why not reply to my post David?
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mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

David Quinn wrote:It is my spontaneous pleasure to do so.
Being I-less, there is no choice in the matter.
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
Who am I to argue with this?

-
In lieu of sincere dialogue, you go for the cheap shot smart-ass remarks.
Great example to set, David, for a forum with the purpose of:
"Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment!"
mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Shahrazad »

My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
You've become a woman.
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by JustinZijlstra »

DQ wrote:It is my spontaneous pleasure to do so.
Being I-less, there is no choice in the matter.
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
Who am I to argue with this?
Shahrazad wrote:
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
You've become a woman.
Why?

To me fluent gesture (feminine) and raw power (masculine) is flow and at will concentrated expression (could be moving a big couch while touching it with one finger).
Woman is emptily fluent.
Man is power.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

mikiel wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It is my spontaneous pleasure to do so.
Being I-less, there is no choice in the matter.
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
Who am I to argue with this?
In lieu of sincere dialogue, you go for the cheap shot smart-ass remarks.
Great example to set, David, for a forum with the purpose of:
"Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment!"
And yet this is exactly what I'm getting from you. My verse above reflects the underlying principle of your responses and outlook to a tee.

You're right, it doesn't promote dialogue or stimulate anything of interest.

I'm not interested in conversing with someone who instantly dismisses any call to conscious-decision making, spiritual purposefulness, future-planning - indeed, to any form of behaviour that deviates away from a cow-like blissing out in the moment - as being unenlightened, egoistic, renunciative, etc. Nor am I interested in those who use this cow-like bliss as a kind of a stick to beat off the examination of their lifestyle and behaviour, or as an excuse to justify everything they do.

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Faust
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Faust »

David Quinn wrote:I'm not interested in conversing with someone who instantly dismisses any call to conscious-decision making, spiritual purposefulness, future-planning - indeed, to any form of behaviour that deviates away from a cow-like blissing out in the moment - as being unenlightened, egoistic, renunciative, etc.
Who and what posts are you referring to? All your "I-illusion" stated was that people aren't responsible for their achievements. Ok fine, but that's not a real good reason not to do the achivements. A biologist figuring out the origins of life doesn't care if he gets honoured or not, as long as he comes closer to his answer or actually answers it, is good reason to do it.
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by maestro »

Faust
According to me the I is harmful because being the prime thought in the mind it blocks examination of certain harmful behaviour/thought patterns.

For example if your boss insults you in front of everybody, you will feel hurt and resentful for a long time. There will be thoughts like I have been insulted, what does everyone think of me, I will take revenge etc. These thoughts in conjunction with feelings will be draining your energy away, and you will not even attempt to stop it because there is an implicit assumption that the I is important.

Whereas the most logical thing to do is not to waste one iota of your energy on resentment at all, but conserve all of it for an appropriate action.

Similarly the I shields many other destructive habits in its fold, which are not examined due to an implicit belief in its primacy. For example "I like donuts" (shields the fact that an addiction is ruining the body).

In actuality your body is a cooperative system and the thinking mind is a part of it. It should decide in a clear manner upon the best course of action, without trying to run the whole show by itself, and that too in the grip of dangerous illusions.
mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by mikiel »

David Quinn wrote:
mikiel wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It is my spontaneous pleasure to do so.
Being I-less, there is no choice in the matter.
My mind passively flows wherever Nature takes it.
Who am I to argue with this?
In lieu of sincere dialogue, you go for the cheap shot smart-ass remarks.
Great example to set, David, for a forum with the purpose of:
"Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment!"
And yet this is exactly what I'm getting from you. My verse above reflects the underlying principle of your responses and outlook to a tee.

You're right, it doesn't promote dialogue or stimulate anything of interest.

I'm not interested in conversing with someone who instantly dismisses any call to conscious-decision making, spiritual purposefulness, future-planning - indeed, to any form of behaviour that deviates away from a cow-like blissing out in the moment - as being unenlightened, egoistic, renunciative, etc. Nor am I interested in those who use this cow-like bliss as a kind of a stick to beat off the examination of their lifestyle and behaviour, or as an excuse to justify everything they do.

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David,
I honestly don't see how your "verse above reflects the underlying principle of (my) responses and outlook to a tee.
My opening thread in this forum, "Liberation!" is my statement about enlightenment as "selflessness." I have shared a link to my teacher's site on selflessness in which several enlightened ones make similar statements about enlightenment as selflessness. Here's the link again:
http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/ ... l#selfless

And speaking of *cheap shots,* your ref. to my sharing here as advocating a "cow-like" blissing out is just that*, in spades.

I spend 1/24th of my time in meditation. You could consider this such a "cow-like" bliss out, but it is actually sitting in/as consciuousness itself transcending all content for an hour a day.
The rest of my non-sleep time is actively engaged in service and celebrating life.
I founded the Center for Conscious Unity soon after my awakening and have since led a meditation circle and dialogue on enlightenment there.
As I've said I was made First Trustee of the 80 acre land trust on which I built the Center, and have been literally building community in harmony with God/Nature there since. (It's off-grid which is why I'm absent from cyberspace for days at a time.)

I just finished fencing in a half acre garden space (against the many deer on the trust) and hauled fallen logs out of the forest, split them into half rounds and made raised beds out of them. Hauled organic topsoil and filled them yesterday. I also work up a good sweat as a master stone mason. My professional job is more sedentary, as a transpersonal counselor (14 yrs now after 8 as a crisis counselor)... this in conjunction with the enlightenment dialogue mentioned above, which, by itself is free, as is the meditation circle. This by way of a glimpse into my actual life... since you make false assumptions about it... hardly a cow-like bliss-out.

But "lifestyle" has very little to do with enlightenment, short of basic intent to do no harm and serve where the opportunity arises.
My getting drunk days are over, for instance, but I still enjoy the usual pleasures of life. (The "I" here is the universal Identity as manifest and living in/as/through "this one.") I've mentioned a few of these ongoing pleasures, but I have no need to convince you that an ascetic life is not the only life in the Awakened state. I've joked about Buddha's big belly in refence to enjoying eating. "What is over-eating?" is not for you to judge. Neither is the definition of drinking in moderation, or sex, or... the nature of one's personal relationships which is obviously such a big issue with you.
I'll leave it here for now.

mikiel
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

mikiel wrote: I spend 1/24th of my time in meditation. You could consider this such a "cow-like" bliss out, but it is actually sitting in/as consciuousness itself transcending all content for an hour a day.

Why would an I-less individual need to meditate?

Or to use a Zen phrase, why paint legs on a snake?

The rest of my non-sleep time is actively engaged in service and celebrating life.
I founded the Center for Conscious Unity soon after my awakening and have since led a meditation circle and dialogue on enlightenment there.
As I've said I was made First Trustee of the 80 acre land trust on which I built the Center, and have been literally building community in harmony with God/Nature there since. (It's off-grid which is why I'm absent from cyberspace for days at a time.)
Sounds idyllic.

I just finished fencing in a half acre garden space (against the many deer on the trust) and hauled fallen logs out of the forest, split them into half rounds and made raised beds out of them. Hauled organic topsoil and filled them yesterday. I also work up a good sweat as a master stone mason. My professional job is more sedentary, as a transpersonal counselor (14 yrs now after 8 as a crisis counselor)... this in conjunction with the enlightenment dialogue mentioned above, which, by itself is free, as is the meditation circle. This by way of a glimpse into my actual life... since you make false assumptions about it... hardly a cow-like bliss-out.
I'm not sure that the revelation that you teach people to tap into their own inner states of cow-like bliss is a credible response to my criticisms.

But "lifestyle" has very little to do with enlightenment, short of basic intent to do no harm and serve where the opportunity arises.

Teaching people to renunciate renunciation harms those who would otherwise enjoy the enlightened fruits of renunciation.

Have no fear, you are constantly causing harm of one sort or another in everything that you do. The same applies to all of us.

My getting drunk days are over, for instance, but I still enjoy the usual pleasures of life. (The "I" here is the universal Identity as manifest and living in/as/through "this one.") I've mentioned a few of these ongoing pleasures, but I have no need to convince you that an ascetic life is not the only life in the Awakened state. I've joked about Buddha's big belly in refence to enjoying eating.

It is interesting that the Buddha named his son "Bondage". That was before he upped and left his family in search of enlightenment. He never went back to them either, even after his enlightenment.

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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Shahrazad »

That was before he upped and left his family in search of enlightenment. He never went back to them either, even after his enlightenment.
I guess even the Buddha was not perfect.
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

He saw that he had a greater family to take care of.

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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by Shahrazad »

Then he should've taken care of both.

Which was the greater family?
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Re: Enlightenment as paradigm shift

Post by David Quinn »

The human race, all of them his spiritual children.

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