Schizoid: The enlightened personality disorder

[Boyan]

Not completely, but there seem to be striking similarities between the symptoms and the aspects of enlightenment. Consider the symptoms,

According to the ICD-10, schizoid personality disorder is characterized by at least four of the following criteria:

* Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection. (meaning lack of attachment)
* Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
* Consistent preference for solitary activities. (introspection)
* Very few (if any) close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such. (awareness of deluded nature of conventional friendship)
* Indifference to either praise or criticism. (again an aspect of non delusional state of mind)
* Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
* Indifference to social norms and conventions. (single mindedness)
* Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.
* Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

[Shahrazad]

So, is a person a schizoid because he is enlightened, or is he enlightened because he was born a schizoid?

[Boyan]

So, is a person a schizoid because he is enlightened, or is he enlightened because he was born a schizoid?

It would work both ways in a sense. If you are born schizoid (that is it shows in you say in early adulthood), you have already some aspects or at least important predispositions for enlightenment in you.

On the other hand, if you gradually become enlightened you'll have good chances of looking like a schizoid to a psychiatrist.


I was diagnosed when I was 17. Just got around to reading about it.

[Imadrongo]

I fit probably 5 or 6 of those. What a retarded diagnosis. :rolleyes:

[David Quinn]

Boyan, you might find this old thread interesting, if you haven't already seen it - Balance

-

[Dan Rowden]

So, is a person a schizoid because he is enlightened, or is he enlightened because he was born a schizoid?

The enlightened person is nothing like the true schizoid other than possibly in terms of superficial, outward appearances. The enlightened person has consciously reasoned their way to a state of being where many conventional psychological phenomena cease to operate. The SPD sufferer hasn't reasoned their way to anything; their brain is just different.

[Unidian]

Hmm. Two problems with that:

1). Personality disorders are generally not caused by organic brain differences, malfunctioning chemistry, etc. Rather, they are persistent patterns of "maladaptive" learned behavior - thus the term personality disorder.

2). It doesn't make sense to say that the existence of a personality disorder is predicated on how one came to meet its criteria. Diagnostically, if the criteria are present, the disorder exists.

[Dan Rowden]

The disorder might still exist from the point of view of an observer making normative judgements, but the key difference is consciousness. Does a SPD sufferer know their own state?

[Unidian]

I'm not sure. I'd have to research that. Probably not to the extent David does, no.

[Boyan]

The disorder might still exist from the point of view of an observer making normative judgements, but the key difference is consciousness. Does a SPD sufferer know their own state?

I'm not sure what you mean by knowing ones state. I always knew I was different. Are you asking whether a SPD actually sees his personality traits as a normal result of being more conscious than the majority, rather than not recognizing them at all, or not in such a way?

I see i.e. my emotional detachment as a result of higher awareness. Lack of friends, as a result of not being interested in the activities most people pursue and having little things in common with the average person.

I think some of the characteristics of my personality are a consequence of being more in contact with reality. Because when I think about why do i exhibit things like this -

* Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection.

I get to the conclusion that its because I just don't see the need or reason for it. And I see those whose behavior is predictable and usual, deemed as normal that is, as being unaware of some things.

An example - I was at my grandmothers funeral, when I was around 13. We are in the chapel, plenty of people there, my family, relatives, friends etc. Most of them crying or sobbing. I am not crying at all, and some of my relatives are giving me odd looks, expecting me to be show that I am visibly sad. I am fully aware of that, and start feeling awkward because I am there with a straight face, while everyone else is so sad, and they actually made me fell guilty about myself because of it.

And I had no particular grudge with my grandma, just saw no reason to cry. I guess reasoning doesn't have much to do with emotions, they just pop out. I'm not immune to displaying emotions, but even when I do I am pretty aware something is wrong with that. Nietzsche noted that emotions that are surrounding something, blur our vision, make us stupid.

[truth_justice]

8 of 9... I am going to hell, aren't I? Locked up for the rest of my days! You people will visit, right?

[Boyan]

In the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_p ... y_disorder on the disorder it says less than 1% of the population are affected by it. And here we have David, me, and Neil and TJ reporting symptoms.

[Cybersmiles]

That diagnostic list was probably created by a manic depressive.

Shoot....where are the smileys?

[PyroSylph]

* Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection. (meaning lack of attachment)
* Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
* Consistent preference for solitary activities. (introspection)
* Very few (if any) close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such. (awareness of deluded nature of conventional friendship)
* Indifference to either praise or criticism. (again an aspect of non delusional state of mind)
* Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
* Indifference to social norms and conventions. (single mindedness)
* Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.
* Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

Wow, how easy it would be to become enlightened if our journey required no progress!
I was under the impression that enlightenment entailed becoming "master of the mind, not mastered by it."

[Unidian]

As they say, some are born on third base and think they hit a home run.

Those criteria are not identical to "enlightenment" in the Zen and Taoist tradition, though. There are a few similarities, but also a lot of differences. The criteria may be a very close match with David Quinn's version of enlightenment, but as I have argued before, that is something different from what is talked about in the Eastern texts.

[Boyan]

As they say, some are born on third base and think they hit a home run.

To who are you referring to? If you speak about me, then say so. I do not appreciate this impersonal tone, and your remark is out of place. I never claimed I am enlightened because of it, nor that I am enlightened at all.

Those criteria are not identical to "enlightenment" in the Zen and Taoist tradition, though. There are a few similarities, but also a lot of differences. The criteria may be a very close match with David Quinn's version of enlightenment, but as I have argued before, that is something different from what is talked about in the Eastern texts.

The enlightenment as viewed on this board is precisely what I was referring to, yes.

What would those lots of differences be?

[Unidian]

To who are you referring to? If you speak about me, then say so. I do not appreciate this impersonal tone, and your remark is out of place. I never claimed I am enlightened because of it, nor that I am enlightened at all.

I was referring to David Quinn.

The enlightenment as viewed on this board is precisely what I was referring to, yes.

What would those lots of differences be?

Briefly, these:

* Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection. (meaning lack of attachment)

Non-attachment means none of this. It simply means freedom from the clinging and aversion which result from false understanding. Chuang Tsu and others point out that normal emotions occur in the non-attached individual just as they occur in the deluded. The difference is that they are simply allowed to come and go without causing a mental "domino effect" in which one is pulled into further suffering through their attachment to false concepts about these nature of these states.

* Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.

See above. The person of insight does not lack the capacity for emotion, but simply the false concepts which cause psychological attachment to one's emotional states, ideas, concepts, babblings, etc.

* Consistent preference for solitary activities. (introspection)

This depends largely on normal personality factors, but a willingness to experience solitary activities such as introspection is not equivalent to a preference for such activities. A certain amount of introspection is generally necessary in the Zen/Taoist tradition. This does not mean that it is "preferred" to engagement with the world. The concept of the bodhisattva, for example, specifically requires such engagement.

* Very few (if any) close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such. (awareness of deluded nature of conventional friendship)

"Conventional" friendship is the same as "spiritual" friendship except that it is based on different values and concepts. The psychological factors are identical - there is a recognition of common identity and a natural expression of compassion based on that recognition. The difference is that most people recognize the only identity they can perceive themselves as sharing - their love of money, sports, fashion, movies, or whatever. Persons of insight also recognize a common identity at the deepest level - our shared participation in (and existence as) Nature itself.

* Indifference to either praise or criticism. (again an aspect of non delusional state of mind)

Again, there are two levels here. On one level, a person of insight is indifferent to such things because they do not touch his identity as Nature itself. But on the other level, the conventional, it pays to be attentive to such indicators. Praise and criticism are feedback mechanisms which indicate how well one is doing in their efforts to engage with the world. It is a poor bodhisattva indeed who disregards such feedback entirely, and he is unlikely to accomplish anything of value.

* Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.

It depends on how "pleasure" is defined. It's true that a person of insight is naturally alienated from some of the nonsense that passes for enjoyment in mainstream society. However, this does not mean that all activities are devoid of rewarding content.

* Indifference to social norms and conventions. (single mindedness)

This is a tricky one, because it can be either a sign of illness or a sign of insight. The difference can usually be seen in whether or not the person in question is advocating and practicing compassion. Compassion is a natural consequence of insight. Some who are "indifferent to social norms and conventions" try to pretend "enlightenment" in order to justify all sorts of destructive positions and actions. You will never see a person of true insight raping or pillaging, although you may see them doing and saying all sorts of "weird" things which harm no one.

* Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.

Introspection has already been discussed, and fantasy has no place in insight except perhaps as entertainment, art, or an occasional diversion.

* Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

Some people who pursue the Zen/Taoist tradition do choose to be celibate either temporarily or permanently, but that does not mean that the natural physiological desire is absent. Regardless of one's chosen practices, biological sexual desire is totally absent only in individuals who are physically, mentally, or behaviorally damaged in some manner, usually due to abuse or organic brain variance.

[David Quinn]

To quote one of the seminal texts of Buddhism, The Dhammapada:

* Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection. (meaning lack of attachment)

As rain breaks through an ill-thatched house, passion will break through an unreflecting mind.

Those who are ever watchful, who study day and night, and who strive after Nirvana, their passions will come to an end.

* Consistent preference for solitary activities. (introspection)

Sitting alone, lying down alone, walking alone and alone subduing himself, let a man be happy at the end of desires.

Rouse thyself by thyself, examine thyself by thyself, thus self-protected and attentive wilt thou live happily.

*Very few (if any) close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such. (awareness of deluded nature of conventional friendship)

He who has compassion on his friends and confidential companions loses his own advantage, having a fettered mind; seeing danger in friendship let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. There is support and amusement in the midst of company, and for children there is great affection; Although wishing people well, one must wander alone like a rhinoceros. Having torn the ties, having broken the net as a fish in the water, being like a fire not returning to the burnt place, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. They cultivate the society of others and serve them for the sake of personal advantage; friends without a motive are difficult to come by. Therefore, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros.

* Indifference to either praise or criticism. (again an aspect of non delusional state of mind)

The man in whom there is nothing upon which he depends, who is independent, having understood the Dhamma, in whom there is no craving for coming into existence or leaving existence. Him I call calm, not looking for sensual pleasures; for him there are no ties, he has overcome desire. For him there are no sons, cattle, fields, wealth, nothing grasped or rejected is to be found in him. That fault of which common people and philosophers say that he is possessed, is not possessed by him, therefore he is not moved by their talk. Free from covetousness, without avarice, the Muni does not reckon himself amongst the low, he does not enter time, being delivered from time.

* Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.

What fools say is pleasure, the nobles say is pain. What fools say is pain, the nobles know as pleasure. See here is a thing difficult to understand, here the ignorant are confounded.

Where the world finds no delight, there the passionless will delight, for they look not for pleasures.

* Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

So long as the sensual desire of man towards women, even the smallest, is not destroyed, so long is his mind in bondage, as the calf that drinks milk is to its mother.

* Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.

Without knowledge there is no meditation, without meditation there is no knowledge. He who has knowledge and meditation is near unto Nirvana.

-

[Kevin Solway]

I reckon you should make a web page about this David, and put it on your website.

[clyde]

David; What translation of the Dhammapada are you using and which chapter are you quoting?

[David Quinn]

I reckon you should make a web page about this David, and put it on your website.

I might just do that.

-

[David Quinn]

David; What translation of the Dhammapada are you using and which chapter are you quoting?

I used quotes from Kevin's website - Venom Crystals. He might know which translation he used.

Do you have alternative translations?

-

[clyde]

David;

There are several versions (or portions) available online. Here is one: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe10/index.htm and here is another: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html .

I attempted a simple search, but was unable to find those quotes. If he could tell me in which Chapter(s) the quotes are found, it would be helpful.

clyde

[divine focus]

Many of these descriptions depend on what level you're on. A lot of people assume there's one step to enlightenment and that's it; everybody beyond a certain threshold has the same qualities, and they signify the end goal of ENLIGHTENMENT. What really happens is that those considered enlightened are still working on issues like everyone else; only, the issues on their level are only more fundamental. When I say "level," I only mean a progression of stages. There is no higher outside of perception.

* Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

This may be true for a certain, very advanced level, but no one stays in a level forever. I can only estimate what the levels are like beyond mine, but it's clear that after time of self-union the enlightened dives back into the world of people, if he ever left. I see no reason where I stand why there would ever be a need to restrict sexual activity, except by personal preference. In that case, there would be no restriction. That would be odd to me, though, because sexuality is a key element of our world.

[Kevin Solway]

sexuality is a key element of our world.

So is lying, murder, delusion, suffering, etc. But that's no reason for them to continue.