Rationalism as Religion

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Is rationalism a religion? Should it be one?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Alternatively:

Is Buddhism a philosophy? Should it be one?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Trevor wrote:
Is rationalism a religion?
I think rationalism as a movement is attempting to erode the power religion has in the world, but I wouldn’t call it a religion as of yet.

Perhaps in a few hundred years, scientists will gather in temples to worship the great Richard Dawkins for his contribution in the total destruction of religion… ; )
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Dawkins is an arrogant fool. Buddhist nihilism defeats Christian nihilism in one page. Dawkins took thousands of pages and can't even touch Christianity.

Socrates will always be rationalism. I especially love how he tricked the Oracle at Delphi into insulting every man in Athens. It took him one sentence ("I am not wise at all.").

If there was a rationalist religion, it would be called "Socratism".
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Trevor wrote:
Buddhist nihilism defeats Christian nihilism in one page. Dawkins took thousands of pages and can't even touch Christianity.
Yes, but Dawkin's mission wasn’t to create a new religion or philosophy of life, it seems to me that he was trying to destroy the validity of mainstream religious thought by examining human nature through the filter of biology.

His objective was to illustrate how reasoning is much more sound, when one relies on empirical evidence, and observable phenomena rather than superstition, blind belief, and emotional intuition, which is based on thousands of years of evolution.

I agree that Dawkins doesn’t SEEM to have the consciousness of Socrates, but that doesn’t mean that his work should be dismissed completely. I think Dawkins represents a refreshing degree of rationality in the academic sphere, which does serve its purpose.

Trevor wrote:
If there was a rationalist religion, it would be called "Socratism".
And I think you missed my joke, my point is that it doesn’t matter what rational individual the religion is based on, it will almost always evolve into a movement of distorted darkness based on humanities weakest emotional longings.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Ryan:

Perhaps you are right, and neither rationalism nor empiricism are religions. It was just an idle thought.
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Lykaios »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Is rationalism a religion? Should it be one?
Alternatively: Is Buddhism a philosophy? Should it be one?
I tend to think that there is no real difference between "religion," "philosophy," and "ideology." The words are still useful at implying different things, but I asked myself what the fundamental difference was until I found I could no longer consistently answer my question.
Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Dawkins is an arrogant fool.
I quite agree in spirit, although I might have used somewhat different language. Dawkins is widely read and very successful, so while he might be arrogant, I'm reluctant to dismiss him as a fool.
The Perceptive Trevor wrote:If there was a rationalist religion, it would be called "Socratism".
Very insightful! But not necessarily; it might be called "Millennium."
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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Imadrongo »

Extreme faith in reason... sounds like a new religion to me, and one that denies all the pleasures of life.
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by David Quinn »

"They played on the seashore - then came a wave and swept all their toys away into the deep: now they weep. But this same wave shall bring them new playthings and cast new coloured shells at their feet. Thus shall they be comforted; and like them ye also, my friends, shall have your comforts - and new coloured shells!"

- Nietzsche, Thus spake Zarathustra.
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by David Quinn »

Philosophy and religion are worlds apart.

Religion involves submitting to a book, a set of doctrines, external authority figures, one's emotional cravings, the herd, etc, for the sake of protecting one's ego. Philosophy, when it is done properly, is the complete opposite. It makes full use of reason, challenges utterly everything, accepts nothing on faith and exposes us fully to the chaos of Nature.

Unlike religion, there is nothing contrived in philosophy. Quite the opposite, it means removing all contrivances, all distortions, all mental blocks, all wishful thinking, thereby allowing the mind to function freely in its pristine, natural state.

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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Imadrongo »

David,
David Quinn wrote:"They played on the seashore - then came a wave and swept all their toys away into the deep: now they weep. But this same wave shall bring them new playthings and cast new coloured shells at their feet. Thus shall they be comforted; and like them ye also, my friends, shall have your comforts - and new coloured shells!"

- Nietzsche, Thus spake Zarathustra.
I don't have a clue what this quote is supposed to mean. :(

"The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it."
David Quinn wrote:Unlike religion, there is nothing contrived in philosophy. Quite the opposite, it means removing all contrivances, all distortions, all mental blocks, all wishful thinking, thereby allowing the mind to function freely in its pristine, natural state.
See this is wishful thinking. Human beings naturally have distortions; there is no natural pristine idealistic state of mind. Without our distortions we wouldn't have made it this far and couldn't make it farther. Our distortions are literally life. You take reason too far and negate life with it. Perhaps life should be your end, not reason, and you should use reason as a tool, as it evolved to be, for the advancement of humanity. Arbitrarily placing too much faith in reason is another religion.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Whorly,
I don't have a clue what this quote is supposed to mean. :(
He was sharing some wisdom with me. It helped me gain perspective on my situation, and thus served its purpose.

(It also made me smile....)

If you don't understand it, it is not an issue you are tackling right now.
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average
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by average »

why does it matter how you label things?

its up to you how you define categories so....blah
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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Imadrongo »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Whorly,
I don't have a clue what this quote is supposed to mean. :(
He was sharing some wisdom with me. It helped me gain perspective on my situation, and thus served its purpose.

(It also made me smile....)

If you don't understand it, it is not an issue you are tackling right now.
I fail to see the point of your post. Does condescending and toying about some mystical wisdom you, in your superior intellect and understanding, derived from the passage make you smile also?
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by David Quinn »

WhorlyWhelk,
"They played on the seashore - then came a wave and swept all their toys away into the deep: now they weep. But this same wave shall bring them new playthings and cast new coloured shells at their feet. Thus shall they be comforted; and like them ye also, my friends, shall have your comforts - and new coloured shells!"

- Nietzsche, Thus spake Zarathustra.

I don't have a clue what this quote is supposed to mean. :(
People fear truth because they think it is going to destroy all enjoyment and pleasure from life. They are like kids who just want to keep playing with their toys.

The wave of truth does indeed sweep away all the normal worldly toys, but it also brings other kinds of toys. These toys are exotic and deep and very interesting if you have the right turn of mind for them. The life of wisdom is certainly not without its pleasures and amusements.

"The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it."
Christians would certainly love that quote!

DQ: Unlike religion, there is nothing contrived in philosophy. Quite the opposite, it means removing all contrivances, all distortions, all mental blocks, all wishful thinking, thereby allowing the mind to function freely in its pristine, natural state.

WW: See this is wishful thinking. Human beings naturally have distortions; there is no natural pristine idealistic state of mind. Without our distortions we wouldn't have made it this far and couldn't make it farther.

Is this a distorted perspective on your part, or not?

Think carefully.

Our distortions are literally life. You take reason too far and negate life with it. Perhaps life should be your end, not reason, and you should use reason as a tool, as it evolved to be, for the advancement of humanity. Arbitrarily placing too much faith in reason is another religion.
We have a choice before us. We can either have faith in sane, clear, coherent thinking, or irrational, vague, contradictory, insane half-thoughts. Which one seems more appealing to you?

I can understand you having trouble with these ideas of rationality and wisdom, that you fear their consequences. That's admirable in a way because it means you have some awareness of what is being implied and I respect that. Kierkegaard once described faith (i.e. the path of truth) as "advancing along the way where all human road signs point: back, back, back." So it isn't an easy path to take by any means. But if you're strong enough for it, it is very rewarding.

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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Imadrongo »

David,
DQ: Unlike religion, there is nothing contrived in philosophy. Quite the opposite, it means removing all contrivances, all distortions, all mental blocks, all wishful thinking, thereby allowing the mind to function freely in its pristine, natural state.

WW: See this is wishful thinking. Human beings naturally have distortions; there is no natural pristine idealistic state of mind. Without our distortions we wouldn't have made it this far and couldn't make it farther.

DQ: Is this a distorted perspective on your part, or not?

Think carefully.
I think we are our distortions. Our minds arbitrarily create some appearances. Our consciousness turns on and starts collecting knowledge of these appearances. Without these distortions there would be no humans and no minds. We wouldn't be having this discussion if humans didn't evolve for the purpose of LIFE rather than TRUTH. Without a human mind there is no such thing as "truth", and indeed untruth is required for life! So to attach too much value to truth is flawed (first of all we can't know it, second of all we mistake a means for an end).

"That getting along without false judgments would amount to getting along without life, negating life. To admit untruth as a necessary condition of life: this implies, to be sure, a perilous resistance against customary value-feelings.” - Nietzsche :-)
WW: Our distortions are literally life. You take reason too far and negate life with it. Perhaps life should be your end, not reason, and you should use reason as a tool, as it evolved to be, for the advancement of humanity. Arbitrarily placing too much faith in reason is another religion.

DQ: We have a choice before us. We can either have faith in sane, clear, coherent thinking, or irrational, vague, contradictory, insane half-thoughts. Which one seems more appealing to you?
A combination is definitely most appealing to me. I want to use my rationality, a valuable tool that us humans evolved, to help me out in life. I don't want to be insane or stupid. At the same time I realize that it is in my best interest at times to allow my emotions and passions and, in fact, if I had no emotions or passions I could not live. Rationality is meant to aid living, it is a means not an end.

I think we might have a misunderstanding here though. I am a very rational and unemotional person. I have barely any emotions or passions and would actually like to boost them. I don't mean being a drunk or a fool or bathing myself in small pleasures at all by this.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Whorly,
I fail to see the point of your post. Does condescending and toying about some mystical wisdom you, in your superior intellect and understanding, derived from the passage make you smile also?
Yes, indeed it does. I really like making idiots see themselves for the fools they are.
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

average,
why does it matter how you label things?
Poorly considered labels can lead to suffering.
its up to you how you define categories so....blah
No it is not. Language works by consensus.
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by average »

how can 'is buddhism is a philosophy?' cause suffering? I guess thinking about it can waste time and ruin productive opportunities....and arguing about it can increase your blood pressure, lol truly a trivial thing to think about


language is agreed upon by consensus, but how you define your own categories is up to you

you can call buddhism a philosophy, a religion, a hobby, a practice, a way of life...it really depends on your own perspective and how it fits into your life, even if the rest of the world disagrees...who gives a fuck


blah
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

average,
how can 'is buddhism is a philosophy?' cause suffering? I guess thinking about it can waste time and ruin productive opportunities....and arguing about it can increase your blood pressure, lol truly a trivial thing to think about
What an asinine thing to say. You live up to your name.
language is agreed upon by consensus, but how you define your own categories is up to you
You are going to drive yourself insane if you keep thinking in contradictions.
you can call buddhism a philosophy, a religion, a hobby, a practice, a way of life...it really depends on your own perspective and how it fits into your life, even if the rest of the world disagrees...who gives a fuck
You evidently don't care, but people who care about truth worry about definitions.

I think you should practise logic. Start with A=A and work your way up to the principle of non-contradiction.

By the time you die, hopefully you will understand syllogisms, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Lykaios »

WhorlyWhelk wrote:Extreme faith in reason...
No, not my religion at least. I believe that faith is an intellectual sin.
sounds like a new religion to me
Of course!
and one that denies all the pleasures of life.
Absurd.
David Quinn wrote:Religion involves submitting to a book, a set of doctrines, external authority figures, one's emotional cravings, the herd, etc,for the sake of protecting one's ego.
This is the kind of unempirical Freudianism of which I am extremely skeptical. It makes for an interesting hypothesis - "people adopt religion to protect their ego" - but how would you operationalize your claim in order to test it? According to personality studies, I've never seen any report that religious people are more defensive than secularists, although they do tend to be somewhat more motivated, outgoing, and hardworking. And according to most sociological research of which I am aware (see especially Stark & Bainbridge's Future of Religion) people join and participate in religious movements because they provide a sense of purpose, the hope of a happier future, and a sense of connection to other members.

Honestly, if a person wants to learn about religion, I think his best bet is to simply read what scientists have found out; there's a great website here that has offers free access to kinds of studies on the subject:

http://www.religjournal.com/

Whatever anyone else may believe, I think empirical science beats the crap out of armchair theorizing.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Lyk,
Whatever anyone else may believe, I think empirical science beats the crap out of armchair theorizing.
Empirical science would not exist without "armchair theorizing". You should read what Bacon -- the man responsible for the rise of modern empirical science -- actually had to say about armchair theorizing before you draw these dumb conclusions.

Also see Thales, who spent his life proving that the entire world was made out of water -- as far as I can tell, simply to trick some gullible idiot into feeling like he needed to prove that it wasn't.
xerox

Post by xerox »

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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Dan Rowden »

Such things would only constitute articles of faith if one believed in them for no good reason. Testing the hypothesis that they exist needn't involve faith.
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Re: Rationalism as Religion

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

xerox, reality does not exist in any form whatsoever. It is the cause of existence -- that is to say, reality is existence itself. To exist is to be a part of reality. Asking if reality exists in turn is, to be blunt, kinda dumb.
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