Why enlightenment?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Pye
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Pye »

Diebert writes:
There's no time all messages have been received or will be acted upon. That's a false and contradictionary wish. It has no base in the way our existence happens.
Well . . . that's what the word "phenomenal" meant to cover in my original statement. And that it comes from the inside.

We're getting tiresome, though, I think . . . . :)
I'm just as much a product of culture and age like everyone else so there's no reason to pretend I'm a stranger to human activities of any kind to project some 'noble' image in a time where nobility has lost meaning. There are many common down to earth aspects to my life and I find them useful to keep my demons close.
Sure, Diebert. I was just taking a poke at your prior 'posturing' on the harry potter thread. sorry.

.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pye wrote:Diebert writes:
There's no time all messages have been received or will be acted upon. That's a false and contradictionary wish. It has no base in the way our existence happens.
Well . . . that's what the word "phenomenal" meant to cover in my original statement. And that it comes from the inside.
Inside? My point is that you're asserting 'christ' even more so than I was while at the same time trying to abolish same, in name. Hence the crucifixion or more accurate: quartering.
Sure, Diebert. I was just taking a poke at your prior 'posturing' on the harry potter thread. sorry.
Yeah, no need to explain that. I just got carried away for other reasons, not really addressing you. Sorry :)
Iolaus
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Iolaus »

Zarathustra,

Yours is an interesting argument, but I can't quite follow it. I admit I have pondered about the primacy of existence, and how it might relate to consciousness. There are a couple of possible flaws. One, consciousness itself might be that primarily existing thing. Two, you say consciousness and existence cannot both be primary, but it might be that there is something elusive that is existence itself, and which gives rise to consciousness. It would then appear that consciousness is primary, but it really isn't. And three, why does any of this negate theism?

You say theists believe that a conscious being 'creates existence' but that doesn't quite make sense. Creating universes perhaps, but existence is already a reality before universes are made out of it. I could say that God has created this universe, but I don't believe God has created existence because God IS existence.

Whorly,

I like your line of argument, but
Once we understand reality, the task should then be to decide how to participate in it, not to try to fully evade it and live in some mystical unity with God,
I think the best way to participate in it is to live in mystical unity with God, why not? It's not like that precludes sex or children or even good wine.

You are right to find suspect a dogma that negates life. That is how we can know that what is being taught here is wicked.

It is a problem, however, that our lives are set up by those running society to have the majority of mankind working too hard and beset by endless problems. Therefore, since raising a family requires more resources than remaining single, and since problem do bring the consciousness down into the nether regions, that the spiritually weak can get very distracted by the vicissitudes of life. Or, rather, all but the very, very strong will be. But it is a valid path and one I have followed all my life.

Isn't it interesting that women are indeed something of a burden to men and that women are simply not equipped as well as men to survive in this world?

Isn't it funny that these 'real men' snarl at the fact that women gain more from marriage than men (actually, that is arguable, but materially it is true)? It is no different than if women were to suddenly say that having children benefits the children more than it benefits women, and therefore make disparaging remarks about the essential worth of children.

Again, this shows that these men do not value life, for woman is life. Life takes effort, and when life is very difficult, one naturally cuts back on getting married, on reproducing. So it must mean that these men here feel that life is too intimidating and it is better not to reproduce.
Is it possible though that a woman could provide a sexual outlet and a partner in the mundane tasks of everyday life that would actually aid in one's quest for wisdom and truth?
I think that I have done so in that I encourage my husband spiritually and I think that marriage has aided my spiritual development as well, perhaps due to my female nature - I feel much more secure and therefore more relaxed, and therefore less anxious, and therefore my spiritual focus has increased.
Truth is a pathless land.
keenobserver
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by keenobserver »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
About cartoons, I was thinking last week about the difference between the Simpsons and Southpark as humor. I discovered that The Simpsons while on the surface less rude and more 'family' oriented has a way more sick and disturbing underlying message. Southpark has a nihilist, amoral and rude level of jokes but is way more healthy and clean in the underlying morals, if any. For example, in The Simpsons the dysfunction of romance and family are highlighted, ridiculed but also encouraged and finally, when it comes to it, affirmed. In Southpark there's only ridiculing, never affirmation or seduction of any kind on this topic that I've seen.
There is no question the creators of SP make a more deliberate go at promoting the good, leaving the viewer with a lesson to ponder. I think besides being fairly decent fellows they do it to provide balance, or said another way they do it so they can more easily get away with putting the screws to whomever or whatever they wish to denigrate, and to be able to do so with flair and style and intelligent no-nonsense humor, and to set new boundaries as to whats permissible. We owe them a debt of gratitude I think.
The creators of Simpsons, to their credit, seem sympathetic to disadvantaged young viewers, albeit in a typically feminine way. Affirming the reality of a messed up male parent and a family which tolerates him may be a way of helping these cope.
Notice the show portrays the American myth that moms are just perfect while the hubbies are simply dumb slobs, boys are justified to dislike their fathers, and little girls are all geniuses in disguise. haha.

To be honest Im somewhat guessing what you mean, since what you've written in this regard could be clearer.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

O.K. I'll admit, I've heard several definitions for enlightenment. I've even deluded myself, to the point, where I thought I was enlightened! Before long, it occured to me, that only an enlightened person can understand what enlightenment really is. The rest only think they understand. I guess, it's the difference between theory and practicality. One thinks they understand, while the other (enlightened) lives it. Sort of like a Vietnam veteran trying to to explain the horrors of war, to a child (or other). The child may have some idea, through imagination, but it doesn't come close to the former soldiers vision. Another interesting point (to me), is that even though each soldiers experience is extracted from the same "medium", they differ in their representation of that experience. They each experience the same thing, yet "their" experiences are different, even though they consist of the same substance. So...

"different strokes for different folks".
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Carl G
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Carl G »

Work on grammar and punctuation. Enlightenment will follow.

But yeah, I dig your meaning. All except the "different strokes" part. It's a platitude that undermines your point. Its common meaning is "whatever you like, or, whatever fits." How does that logically support the ideas of a direct experiencing of Vietnam or Enlightenment vs. a theoretical understanding?
Good Citizen Carl
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

Yeah, I put that last part in, because I wasn't very satisfied with my: "thoughts dressed into words", bit. Instead, of thinking about my point and improving my: "grammar and punctuation"; I ended up inserting the first thing, which came to mind and left it at that!--I knew someone would catch me...Though, maybe I can still to restore my point, by making this connection:

I wrote:
"different strokes for different folks".
Carl G wrote:
[...]How does that logically support the ideas of a direct experiencing of Vietnam or Enlightenment vs. a theoretical understanding?
Well, it oddly made sense, at the time. Anyways let's see:

We're at least clear when it comes to my point, which was: A theoretical understanding doesn't suffice when compared to a practical one. The practical one, ALWAYS outweighs the theoretical one. The latter being a fabrication of thought, the former is "experiences"...(Damn you!). Both are in a way experiences!--

[Heh, I guess that the difference between a crazy man and a normal one, is this: The crazy one has his theories mixed in with practicality.]

--Well, how the hell do we know the difference between a dream and "reality"? By waking up from it! So, a pseudo-enlightened person wakes-up, so to speak, from his delusion. While the enlightened doesn't. That's not to say the enlightened is delusional, no, because he follows reason. Therefore, logically following his nose, so to speak, and "carrying on"...The delusional, doesn't follow reason, therefore logically making mistakes, wrong turns and so on..."Cracks in the foundation, logically break the house down". In practicality, the theories that match up, are the "real deal", while the "wannabes", simply wake-up...Or don't.

"Different strokes..."--It's just to say we're all different and "strokes" signifying "logic". So, we use logic differently...And so on.
zarathustra
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by zarathustra »

Following this logic theists must all be crazy. As for enlightenment, it means everything and nothing. The end of knowledge, for some, for others, the beginning...To many christian fundamentalists benny binn is an enlightened being who has been touched by the holy spirit. The word itself is open to interpretation, poetical and allusive, like most metaphysical theories it cannot be tested reasonably or scientifically. You believe it or you don't. A fertile ground for snake oil salesmen....

As for waking and sleeping. Your understanding of both is underlined by certain metaphysical prerequisite assumptions (wishful thinking). These assumptions aside, science KNOWS the difference between these two states, what they are and the effect both have on the body. Enlightenment has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. You have simply drawn an analogy...so what?

z
Last edited by zarathustra on Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carl G
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Carl G »

Ralph,

The words of your last post suggest you have a lot of sorting out to do, both philosophical and grammatical. Yes, humor aside, the two are related.

Regarding "different strokes," my point still stands. You say strokes = logic. Therefore different strokes = different logic. This does not mean logic applied differently, and anyway, the concept "different logic" is incoherent, as there is just one logic, not multiple. Logic is logic.

So, the aphorism is nonsensical the context in which you use it.
Good Citizen Carl
zarathustra
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by zarathustra »

THE most WONDERFUL thing about our existence is that it will always remain A MYSTERY. No matter what we learn, we can never know everything. Science reveals the mystery....bit by bit. Art celebrates it...

z
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

Yeah, I know, I know...There is only one kind of logic, which is: logic = logic. What I meant is: Logic is like a tool, used in different contexts, by different people. This is to say--People take different paths, yet end up at the same destination. While using logic.

Carl, I absolutely agree with you: I do have a lot to sort out. My problem is, I don't know where to start.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

z wrote:
THE most WONDERFUL thing about our existence is that it will always remain A MYSTERY. No matter what we learn, we can never know everything. Science reveals the mystery....bit by bit. Art celebrates it...
Without science, there'd be no mystery to celebrate. Let's shake hands and say they're both needed.

"Science has a purpose, art exploits it."...Btw, some mentally handicapped people are able to create, beautiful paintings.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

So, I guess my last few posts are incoherent. Damn. They seemed logical to me...!
zarathustra
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by zarathustra »

Perhaps they're not handicapped...perhaps we just don't understand...yet...
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

Perhaps. It's just that IQ tests state otherwise. Low IQ test-scores, are a good indication of retardation.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

Why spend your whole life trying to reach enlightenment and "emptiness"?
What do you mean by: "emptiness"? Is emptiness a derivative of enlightenment (whatever the hell that is.)?
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Try reading this, Ralph. It would be better if you read that from the very start, but if you can't do that then read that part at least.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

Thanks.
RalphPL

Re: Why enlightenment?

Post by RalphPL »

NICE!!!
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