Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Cory Duchesne wrote:Men are presently too infatuated with women for that to happen.
Cory,

That is a truly frightening thought. If it is true, then that is really sad. I know that you said that in all honesty of what you truly believe, and what makes me sad is that there is a big chance that this is true.
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David Quinn
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by David Quinn »

Less frighteningly, women are even more infatuated with women than men are.

-
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Cory,
I'm not sure I follow. Isn't it 'virtual woman' who rescues you from boredom?

I guess you might get bored with your particular porn video, and hence boredom rescues you from it. But really, I would think that boredom simply pulls you from one porn fantasy into a more extreme one, or just a different one.
When you are truly bored with porn, you will start feeling compassion for the guy who edits the film from an artistic point of view. At that point, it will cease you arouse you in any way whatsoever.
keenobserver
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by keenobserver »

Cory, you'll have to read between your lines, for my responses. (five at least)
Have no idea how to get these paragraphs to look right.
Cory Duchesne wrote:
keenobserver wrote: I think well meaning people are too quick to offer wacking-off as some sort of magical solution
I'm not presenting it as a magical solution, I'm presenting masturbation as a rebuttal to anyone who says he needs to chase women in order to get a biological sexual release. He is likely addicted to something that goes beyond mere biological ejaculation, beyond even the porno he can download off the net. He likely values a real relationship with a women for a reason other than than the one he says to himself. He says: "it's just my high libido"

No, I think there is more to it than that, because if it was just your libido, then you would just settle for jerking off.
Well yes and no. I get your drift about the emotional element found only in a real woman, i wasnt talking to that however.
I wanted to make a point that I felt was worth making, your post seemed like a fine enough place to do so, no need to be defensive.
Back to "Yes and NO" - No in particular, maybe you do but i reckon most men dont experience self-sex or self-ejaculation in the same way as sleeping with an attractive woman, wanking only goes so far to meeting the need, does not replace the drive to touch real female skin, etc.
Who was it that was quoted as saying he's kept himself from playing with himself for 3 years? I dont believe it, coz the sage never has to keep himself from anything, he has complete control of his body
You're not making much sense here, because the whole idea of having 'control' of your body implies that you are controlling yourself away from doing certain behaviors while aiming toward others.
It was written that someone hasnt allowed himself sex for 3 years and if that is the way the individual expressed it I then dont believe it, I would believe an advanced person saying he's not had much of a drive for sometime but to say "not allow" himself or that kind of expression to me suggests duplicity
and if he indulges he does so by choice in full consciousness and could have chosen not to if required.
Ok, and if he doesn't indulge, he does so by choice. What's your point?
That advanced people can live with or without it. Others must have something at least.
The point is to concentrate not on the perfect sexual solution but on perfection of mind.
And do you regard perfection of mind to be asexual?
what value does copulation have to one lacking attachment?
A virtual woman will entrap you like no live woman ever could.
I agree that porn is addicting and I advise against it. But isn't it better than being in a real relationship?
Porn may have its place even in the life of someone on the path, but whereas the high achievers will leave it behind, the slowpokes may end up worse off than before.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

David Quinn wrote:Less frighteningly, women are even more infatuated with women than men are.
David,

Thank you for reminding me that this was a generalization, not a universal statement. As long as there are a few who can lead the others, there is hope.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Cory,
I'm not sure I follow. Isn't it 'virtual woman' who rescues you from boredom?

I guess you might get bored with your particular porn video, and hence boredom rescues you from it. But really, I would think that boredom simply pulls you from one porn fantasy into a more extreme one, or just a different one.
When you are truly bored with porn, you will start feeling compassion for the guy who edits the film from an artistic point of view. At that point, it will cease you arouse you in any way whatsoever.
Well, being someone who has kept a distance from porn over the years - - I find that very hard to believe. I'm not bored of porn, I just don't allow myself to think of it or get stimulated by it. If I were to watch it right now, I could easily get carried away with it.

I tend to look at porn like a drug, in that I don't believe that you can just get permanently bored of it one day. When you allow yourself to be stimulated by porn, you are feeding something that I think is insatiable. Typically I think your appetite just gets increasingly more demanding and specialized, perhaps to the point where you feel compelled to resort to prostitutes, or a real relationship.

Is there anyone whose very experienced in porn watching who can testify to this?

Dan and Trevor, are you speaking from experience when you say that a person can just get bored of porn?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory wrote:
Is there anyone whose very experienced in porn watching who can testify to this?
I don’t think a person simply gets bored of porn, usually a user of pornography will move on to increasingly specialized and refined types of porn as you say Cory. He may start by looking at young teenage girls posing, and he may find that stimulating for a certain period, but eventually he needs something that excites him more, something more fantastic. Many times, his tastes evolve to such unique ends that no regular women could ever satisfy him to the same degree that his refined tastes do. However, its complicated because the actual ‘trigger’ that causes orgasm as Solway puts it, evolves to be quite specialized and fantastic, but then the lonely philosopher also yearns for human contact, he yearns for simple sensual contact. So usually, if a long-time user of porn has sex with a woman, reaching orgasm can be incredibly difficult, and he may not reach orgasm at all, or he may have to imagine his refined tastes as he is having sex with her so that he can. However, at this point, he is not in it for the orgasm, he is in it for the sensual contact…

Moreover, I suspect that the images and preferences that are necessary for the orgasm trigger develop well established neurological grooves in the brain that are quite difficult to break. Neurons that fire together, wire together, and over time, a large multi-lane highway is constructed that creates a feedback loop between the genes, the glands, and the neurological highway itself. Very difficult to break. The user of pornography maybe able to downgrade the highway to a country road or even a dirt road through a period of disuse, which causes plastic change in the brain, but just slipping up once can cause a bottleneck of construction, and before he knows it, the construction crew have rebuild the entire highway back to its original strength….

Gives a whole meaning to that Tom Cochrane song - Life is a highway…
keenobserver
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by keenobserver »

I cant think of many things more obstructive than porn when it comes to a man's spirituality, Jesus' statement about chopping off ones hand if it would cause you to sin was no joke really, he said it to drive home the point that some things will require great measures to overcome. Though women in our times may be less accessible to some, their images certainly are not, and neither would they have it any other way. They really believe the more horned-up men are the better for themselves. For mens heads to stop turning is a terrifying thought for women, many would not wish to live in such a world. Without the concurrance of todays women, the porn industry would be just a glimmer of its present glory. Unfortunately few see how damaging it is or will be to their grandchildrens future, both male and female, to say nothing of to the cause of wisdom.
Fortunately the situation is not entirely hopeless, as any sage can confirm.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Keen observor wrote:
I cant think of many things more obstructive than porn when it comes to a man's spirituality, Jesus' statement about chopping off ones hand if it would cause you to sin was no joke really, he said it to drive home the point that some things will require great measures to overcome. Though women in our times may be less accessible to some, their images certainly are not, and neither would they have it any other way. They really believe the more horned-up men are the better for themselves. For mens heads to stop turning is a terrifying thought for women, many would not wish to live in such a world. Without the concurrance of todays women, the porn industry would be just a glimmer of its present glory. Unfortunately few see how damaging it is or will be to their grandchildrens future, both male and female, to say nothing of to the cause of wisdom.
Fortunately the situation is not entirely hopeless, as any sage can confirm.
Well, I dont know if pornography is actually entirely negative. It actually reduces birth rates on many levels. Consider this – guys that become hooked on unique and refined types of sexual preferences ejaculate less frequently in their girlfriends, and they may actually pursue women less frequently. And the ones with girlfriends or wives may not even get turned on by them as much. In one sense, Pornography is actually making the male tolerance for female sexuality much higher.

Pornography could be helping humanity evolve to a stage where the actual sexual act between ‘people’ is no longer valued in and of itself.

And this seems like a positive development if the future of reproduction will be with technology/genetic engineering, etc…

if this trajectory is correct, then if a large percentage of the male population loses interest in sex with actual women, then perhaps there won't be AS MUCH of an outrage and public outcry when scientists begin engineering babies in labs.
keenobserver
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by keenobserver »

Yeah, I reckon evolving sexual appreciation looks more like expansion than anything else, porn opens up the way to new sexual possibilities which amend the old tastes and not often replace them. Id be very impressed to learn some guy, nuts his whole life for tenage girls, is no longer hardened by them (only).
I can see men addicted to porno finding it increasingly difficult to develop sexual relationships with real people, but to actually loose interest in hot women given availability that I think would be highly unusual.

Perhaps you could post the reference to orgasmic trigger attributed to Solway, like to see that (and shoot necessary holes in it!). I accept the basic idea, I realize from own experience that the presence or absence of triggers does make a big difference indeed. Thats why men will pay so much and even sell their souls for the right girl/experience. Once women figured out that porno was no threat to this they opened up the gates to it, and now even join on in with excelling zeal.

Some creatures (vis the animal channel, some species of antelope) are so determined and so hard up and so kept-at-a-distance that they resort to somehow shooting their load at the only possible moment, amazing timing and control, and accuracy. Dont ask me why God chose to make life and love so trying for some poor bastards!

Just remembered, Skipair have you noticed The Pickup Artist on VH1. Began two weeks ago. Last time they had the 8 loosers meet up with a classroom of cute little girls, to practice telling stories to less threatening females. The main seducer dude apparently knows enough about club-going women to realize the value in the idea.
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skipair
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by skipair »

Yeah, same fluid consciousness, minus the pussy power...I caught the episode before that. FWIW that guy is excellent at the pick up, but terrible on the longer term.

Gotta question for you or whoever...

If sex is an egoistic act to escape the self, how does one define an egoistic from a nonegoistic act?
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DHodges
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by DHodges »

Ryan R wrote:I don’t think a person simply gets bored of porn, usually a user of pornography will move on to increasingly specialized and refined types of porn as you say Cory. He may start by looking at young teenage girls posing, and he may find that stimulating for a certain period, but eventually he needs something that excites him more, something more fantastic.
My relationship to porn is nothing like what you describe. I look at it sometimes. I don't have any feeling of addiction or needing greater stimulation.

I don't have a particular fetish. I have collected a wide variety of different types of porn. (I guess that is kind of typical of how I go about things generally - kind of exploratory.) Some of it is very interesting in a sociological / psychological way. With some of it, it is hard to understand why anyone would find it sexually exciting.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Dhodges wrote:
My relationship to porn is nothing like what you describe. I look at it sometimes. I don't have any feeling of addiction or needing greater stimulation.

I don't have a particular fetish. I have collected a wide variety of different types of porn. (I guess that is kind of typical of how I go about things generally - kind of exploratory.) Some of it is very interesting in a sociological / psychological way. With some of it, it is hard to understand why anyone would find it sexually exciting.
yes, it is interesting to wonder about why some things are considered sexually arousing for people....

I think some sexual content is an expression what mental trauma people have suffered as children. For instance: A boy that has had a very controlling mother or abusive mother will sometimes seek a dominating type of women to do all sorts of nasty things to him in the bedroom, Kelly Jones mentioned it before – that some sexual desire is an attempt to conquer deepest fears by acting out those fears in real life. So it is simply deriving excitement from something that is typically frightening.

Some women like it when their boyfriends tackle them to the floor right before sex because they are acting out their deepest fear of being raped, and they derive excitement from imagining themselves in that situation.

Some men derive excitement from being feminized by women, by having a woman dress them up, and reverse the gender roles, they derive excitement by the loss of control, by the powerlessness, by being overcome by a feminine force. By being assimilated by something inferior…

Many men derive excitement from the idea of teaming up with many guys to have sex with one promiscuous woman because there is a sense of masculine unity that is destroying something feminine. Some men derive a lot of pleasure and excitement from the thought of a unified feminine destruction.

Some men derive power and excitement from cheating on their girlfriends because he feels so controlled, attached, and trapped, and the thought of having no-strings attached sex with a promiscuous girl gives him an illusionary sense that he is in control, that he is more liberated than he is.

Some men derive excitement from the idea of destroying feminine purity, and losing oneself in the childhood innocence of the girl-mentality in the process, Quinn mentioned this already in more depth as related to child molesters, and he is totally correct in his analysis…

I also suspect things like foot worship, panty worship, shoe worship have to do with objectifying the feminine onto an object, and deriving excitement from stealing it, capturing it, and doing what is not supposed to be done. Many men who have this fetish derive excitement from stalking a really beautiful female, and breaking into her house when she isn’t home and stealing pairs of shoes or panties or what have you.

I think the typical male fantasy of anal sex with a woman is similar in this regard as well. He derives excitement both from the idea of doing something that shouldn’t be done, and the thought destroying, ruining, or de-purifying the feminine in the process.

Voyeurs and Exhibitionists are two sides of the same coin in my view. The Voyeur derives excitement from watching the private moments of others, the thought that he shouldn’t be doing it, and the thought that he is seeing something rare, or whatever. And the Exhibitionists enjoy having sex in public places because they derive excitement from the possibility of being watched by other people.

Some white woman enjoy the thought of having sex with black guys because they derive excitement from doing something bad, something that shouldn’t be done, almost unconsciously they know that genetically they are performing a big no no, and they derive excitement from it.

Both sexes can derive excitement from being forced to do something that is outright demeaning, foul, painful, humiliating, frightening or what have you. Many fetishes depend on the duality between the controller and the controlled, the slave and the master, the dominator and the submissive.
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Matt Gregory »

Skipair,
If sex is an egoistic act to escape the self, how does one define an egoistic from a nonegoistic act?
Since you did say "whoever", I would distinguish them with the qualification of consciousness. An egotistical act escapes the self by forgetting about the self, and the nonegotistical act is not motivated solely by self because of the deep understanding that exists of what the self really is. Self is still a factor even in the nonegotistical act because the person still has to take their own abilities into consideration, what they're capable of doing, etc., but these aren't egotistical concerns, they're just admissions of the limitations of human action and what possibilities exist.
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skipair
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by skipair »

Matt or again whomever,

What are the specific signs that any given act is egotistical or not? After all, I'm still very conscious while having sex, just focused...if I were out hunting a buffalo for food I'd probably be just as focused...or also with deeply reading a book.

I suppose I don't understand how it is possible to ACTUALLY draw an accurate line between the two.
keenobserver
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by keenobserver »

Its not so much the "act" or action that can be said to be of ego, but the mind or consciousness. Ego-lessness is a perfectly pure condition that automatically results in wise ego-free behavior, whatever action may result. Specific acts cannot be filed under the categories ego/egoless. Only following the scrapping of all delusion may egoless-mindedness manifest, and only at such times can one know this is so. Theres your line.
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skipair
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by skipair »

And specifically how to scrap all delusion?
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by Matt Gregory »

Good answer, Keenobserver.
keenobserver
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Re: Questions about Enlightenment, comments about Sex

Post by keenobserver »

Questioning assumptions about your world. Re-examining that which you've taken to be true, consider what truth may be like if what seems true is actually false. Being determined and ruthless, giving the work first priority, becoming disgusted with life and intolerant of ignorance, freeing your ego to flex its muscles, trusting in your capacity to master the world.
And being lucky enough to trip into the minds and tap into the thoughts of those who have traveled the same path before you.
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