Blind religious belief in science

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Jason
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:02 am

Re: Blind religious belief in science

Post by Jason »

DHodges wrote:
Jason wrote:Once again excuse my relative ignorance of physics, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but what you wrote seems like a circular argument. It also appears to contradict the idea that motion is relative, because it assigns(apparently arbitrarily, if motion is relative) special characteristics* to the light but not the car.

*no observing or measuring from here, infinite time dilation.
Is the beam of light (or moving along with the beam of light) a place where a person might be, performing a measurement?
No not in the example I have been thinking of, the measurement is taking place at the car.

But what about this version: at position A is the car, the car headlights, and a person in the car with a light detector. At position B, which is some distance in front of the car, is a mirror.

The headlights are switched on, the light travels from the headlights to the mirror and bounces off the mirror back towards the car, and then hits the light detector in the car. I'm assuming the measured delay between transmitting and then receiving back the light will indicate that the relative motion between the car and the light was at the speed of light.

The emission of light, the light detection, the measurement, the observation, all take place at position A. Then once again we simply define the light as being the stationary point.

Whadda ya think?
tharpa
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Blind religious belief in science

Post by tharpa »

This is a good, top-level article about all this:
http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html

Last 2 paragraphs:

Near the end of his career, Lorentz is quoted as having graciously conceded the contest: “My theory can obtain all the same results as special relativity, but perhaps not with a comparable simplicity.” (private communication from C.O. Alley) Today, with hindsight, we might make a somewhat different assessment: “Special relativity can explain all the experimental results in Table II that Lorentzian relativity can, but perhaps not with a comparable simplicity.” Even so, SR cannot explain the faster-than-light propagation of gravity, although LR readily can.

We conclude that the speed of gravity may provide the new insight physics has been awaiting to lead the way to unification of the fundamental forces. As shown in (Van Flandern, 1993, pp. 80-85 and Van Flandern, 1996), it may also be connected with the explanation of the dark matter problem in cosmology. Moreover, the modest switch from SR to LR may correct the “wrong turn” physics must have made to get into the dilemma presented by quantum mechanics, that there appears to be no “deep reality” to the world around us. Quantum phenomena that violate the locality criterion may now be welcomed into conventional physics.

........

My two cents: light doesn't travel at any speed except in relative terms. Relatively speaking, it travels faster than motor cars. But in fact, it is the observer that creates some of the conditions for Point A and Point B to exist between which the light is deemed to 'travel'. Without such relative reference points, light would not be travelling at all. In other words, you could say that everything is moving and the light is still in that as 'it' travels from Point A to Point B, its inter-relationship with everything else in the universe is changing and all other such inter-relationships with each other. So the entire universe is traveling at the same speed, whether it be a rock not moving apparently, or a light beam moving apparently.

If this makes no sense consider the many quantum-lineage experiments which discovered that particles moving in one place that were 'jiggled' seemingly caused other particles in a different place to 'jiggle' in exactly the same way, as if they were connected somehow. Clearly they were part of the same field somehow, meaning that their apparently independent nature as particles was not as it seemed even though they could be discerned as particles with clear delineations physically. So in terms of being parts of the same overall continuum there is no speed really. But I suspect this is somewhat a cheap point I am making. In any case, the above article strikes me as very high quality stuff and does purport to prove that gravity travels at speeds far higher than light.

Also, numerous experiments have shown that light speed is not constant in any case. Much of Einstein's work was plagiarised (including the formula E = MC2 which he did not develop) and his work was quite shoddy and inconsistent. And that goes back to Kevin's title: so much of what passes for 'science' is bad science to start with and far more unclear or work-in-progress like than scientists like to acknowledge. It really should be called scientism.
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