What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kelly Jones
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What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

If he is a Buddha, and the leader of the Buddhist religion, then why is his "enduring message" about kindness, compassion, and altruism? Attracting as many listeners as possible, by presenting Buddhism in a commercially-friendly way, is a crock --- if he doesn't talk about the importance of non-attachment, freedom from delusion, and Nirvana.

At his three-day lecture series in Melbourne (in a few days' time), he'll be lecturing on Nagarjuna's "Commentary on the Awakening Mind" (jangchub semdrel, or Bodhicittavivara?a), and "Eight Verses for Training the Mind" (from Geshe Langri Thangpa, d.1123) --- and you can listen, if you pay him $300. Website is here.

--- Problem is, Nagarjuna advises overcoming compassion (as a lesser path), while Thangpa endorses it !

Here are the two texts :
Nagarjuna wrote:
Bowing to the glorious Vajrasattvas embodying the mind of enlightenment, I shall expound the development of the bodhicitta that abolishes existence.

The Buddhas maintain that bodhicitta is not enveloped in notions conscious of a self, skandhas, and so forth; is always marked by being empty.

Minds tinged by compassion must develop with particular effort. This bodhicitta is constantly developed by the compassionate Buddhas.

When the self imagined by the tirthikas is analyzed logically, it obtains no place within the skandhas.

If it were the skandhas, it would not be permanent, but the self has no such nature. And between things permanent and impermanent a container- content relationship is not (possible).

When there is no so-called self how can the so-called creator be permanent? If there were a subject might one begin investigating its attributes in the world.

Since a permanent (creator) cannot create things, whether gradually or all at once, there are no permanent things, whether external or internal.

Why is an efficacious (creator) dependent? He would of course produce things all at once. That which depends on something else is neither eternal nor efficacious.

If an entity, it would not be permanent, for things are perpetually instantaneous (since [you] do not deny that impermanent things have a creator).

This world, free from a self and the rest, is vanquished by the (Sravakas') understanding of the skandhas, elements, sense-fields, and subject and object.

Thus the benevolent have spoken to the Sravakas of the five skandhas: form, feeling, apprehension, karma-formations and consciousness.

But to the Bodhisattvas, the Buddha who is the best among those who walk on two legs, has always taught this doctrine about the skandhas: "Form is like a mass of foam, feeling is like bubbles, apprehension is like a mirage, karma-formations are like the plantain, and consciousness is like an illusion."

The form skandha is declared to have the four great elements as its nature. The remaining skandhas are inseparably established as immaterial.

Among these eye, form, and so forth are classified as elements. Again, as subject-object these are to be known as the sense-fields.

Form is not the atom, nor is it the [organ] of sense. It is absolutely not the active sense [of consciousness]. An instigator and a creator are not suited to producing.

The form atom does not produce sense consciousness, it passes beyond the senses. If forms are created by an assemblage [of atoms], this accumulation is unacceptable.

If you analyze by spatial division, even the atom is seen to possess parts. That which is analyzed into parts — how can it logically be an atom?

Concerning one single external object divergent judgments may prevail. Precisely that form which is pleasant may appear differently to others.

Regarding the same female body, an ascetic, a lover and a wild dog entertain three different notions: "A corpse!" "A mistress!" "A tasty morsel!"

Things are efficacious due to being like objects. Is it not like an offense while dreaming [i. e., nocturnal emission]? Once awakened from the dream the net result is the same.

As to the appearance of consciousness under the form of subject and object, that there exists no external object apart from consciousness.

In no way at all is there an external thing in the mode of an entity. This particular appearance of consciousness appears under the aspect of form.

The deluded see illusions, mirages, cities of gandharvas, and so forth. Form manifests in the same way.

The purpose of the teachings about the skandhas, elements, and so forth is to dispel the belief in a self. By establishing in pure consciousness, the
greatly blessed abandon that as well.

According to Vijhanavada, this manifold is established to be mere consciousness. What the nature of this consciousness might be we shall analyze now.

The Muni's teaching that "The entirety is mere mind" is intended to remove the fears of the simple-minded. It is not concerning reality.

[The three natures] — the imagined, the dependent, and the absolute — have only one nature of their own: sunyata. They are the imaginations of mind.

To [Bodhisattvas] who rejoice in the Mahayana the Buddhas present in brief the selflessness and equality of phenomena that mind is originally unborn.

The Yogacarins give predominance to mind in itself, claiming that mind purified by a transformation in position becomes the object of its own specific [knowledge].

That which is past does not exist, that which is future is nowhere discovered. How can the present shift from place [to] place?

[The alayavijnana] does not appear the way it is. As it appears — it is not like that. Consciousness essentially lacks substance; it has no other basis.

When a lodestone is brought near, iron turns swiftly around; it possesses no mind, but appears to possess mind. In just the same way, the alayavijnana appears to be real though it is not. When it moves to and fro it retains existences.

Just as the ocean and trees move though they have no mind, the alayavijnana is active in dependence on a body.

Considering that without a body there is no consciousness, you must also state what kind of specific knowledge of itself this [consciousness] possesses!

By saying that a specific knowledge of itself [exists] one says it is an entity. But one also says that it is not possible to say, "This is it!"

To convince themselves as well as others, those who are intelligent always proceed without error!

The knowable is known by a knower. Without the knowable, no knowing. So why not accept that subject and object do not exist?

Mind is but a name. It is nothing apart from name. Consciousness must be regarded as but a name. The name too has no own-being.

The Jinas have never found mind to exist, either internally, externally, or else between the two. Therefore mind has an illusory nature.

Mind has no fixed forms such as various colors and shapes, subject and object, or male, female, and neuter.

In brief: Buddhas do not see [what cannot] be seen. How could they see what has lack of own-being as its own-being?

A 'thing' is a construct. Sunyata is absence of constructs. Where constructs have appeared, how can there be sunyata?

The Tathagatas do not regard mind under the form of knowable and knower. Where knower and knowable prevail there is no enlightenment.

Space, bodhicitta, and enlightenment are without marks; without generation. They have no structure; they are beyond the path of words. Their 'mark' is non- duality.

The magnanimous Buddhas who reside in the heart of enlightenment and all the compassionate [Bodhisattvas] always know sunyata to be like space.

Therefore [Bodhisattvas] perpetually develop this sunyata, which is the basis of all phenomena; calm, illusory, baseless; the destroyer of existence.

Sunyata expresses non-origination, voidness, and lack of self. Those who practice it should not practice what is cultivated by the inferior.

Notions about positive and negative have the mark of disintegration. The Buddhas have spoken sunyata, the others do not accept sunyata.

The abode of a mind that has no support has the mark of space. These maintain that development of sunyata is development of space.

All the dogmatists have been terrified by the lion's roar of sunyata. Wherever they may reside, sunyata lies in wait!

Whoever regards consciousness as momentary cannot accept it as permanent. If mind is impermanent, how does this contradict sunyata?

In brief: When the Buddhas accept mind as impermanent, why should they not accept mind as empty?

From the very beginning mind has no own-being. If things could be proved through own-being, then do not declare them to be without substance.

This statement results in abandoning mind as having substantial foundation. It is not the nature of things to transcend own own-being!

As sweetness is the nature of sugar and hotness that of fire, so maintain the nature of all things to be sunyata.

When one declares sunyata to be the nature, one in no sense asserts that anything is destroyed or that something is eternal.

The activity of dependent co-origination with its twelve spokes starting with ignorance and ending with decay, maintain to be like a dream and an illusion.

This wheel with twelve spokes rolls along the road of life. Apart from this, no sentient being that partakes of the fruit of its deeds can be found.

Depending on a mirror the outline of a face appears: It has not moved into it but also does not exist without it.

Just so, the wise must always be convinced that the skandhas appear in a new existence recomposed, but do not migrate [as identical or different].

To sum up: Empty things are born from empty things. The Jina has taught that agent and deed, result and enjoyer are conventional.

Just as the totality creates the sound of a drum or a sprout, maintain that external dependent co-origination is like a dream and an illusion.

It is not at all inconsistent that phenomena are born from causes. Since a cause is empty of cause, understand it to be unoriginated.

That phenomena do not arise indicates that they are empty. Briefly, 'all phenomena' denotes the five skandhas.

When truth is as has been explained, convention is not disrupted. The true is not an object separate from the conventional.

Convention is explained as sunyata; convention is simply sunyata. For they do not occur without one another, just as created and impermanent.

Convention is born from karma [due to the various] klesas, and karma is created by mind. Mind is accumulated by the vasanas. Happiness consists in being free from the vasanas.

A happy mind is tranquil. A tranquil mind is not confused. To be unperplexed is to understand the truth. By understanding truth one obtains liberation.

It is also defined as reality, real limit, signless, ultimate meaning, the highest bodhicitta, and sunyata.

Those who do not know sunyata will have no share in liberation. Such deluded beings wander the six destinies, imprisoned within existence.

When ascetics (yogacarin) have thus developed this sunyata, their minds will without doubt become devoted to the welfare of others:

"I should be grateful to those beings who in the past bestowed benefits upon me by being my parents or friends.

"As I have brought suffering to beings living in the prison of existence, who are scorched by the fire of the klesas, it is fitting that I afford them happiness."

The sweet and bitter fruit of the world, in the form of a good or bad rebirth is the outcome of whether they hurt or benefit living beings.

If Buddhas attain the unsurpassed stage by giving living beings support, what is so strange if not guided by the slightest concern for others receive none of the pleasures of gods and men that support the guardians of the world, Brahma, Indra, and Rudra?

The different kinds of suffering that beings experience in the hell realms, as beasts, and as ghosts result from causing beings pain.

The inevitable and unceasing suffering of hunger, thirst, mutual slaughter, and torments result from causing pain.

Know that beings are subject to two kinds of maturation: Buddhas Bodhisattvas and that of good and bad rebirth.

Support with your whole nature and protect them like your own body. Indifference toward beings must be avoided like poison!

Though the Sravakas obtain a lesser enlightenment thanks to indifference, the bodhi of the Perfect Buddhas is obtained by not abandoning living beings.

How can those who consider how the fruit of helpful and harmful deeds ripens persist in their selfishness for even a single moment?

The sons of the Buddha are active in developing enlightenment, which has steadfast compassion as its root, grows from the sprout of bodhicitta, and has the benefit of others as its sole fruit.

Those who are strengthened by meditational development find the suffering of others frightening. They forsake even the pleasures of dhyana; they even enter
the Avici hell!

They are wonderful; they are admirable; they are most extraordinarily excellent! Nothing is more amazing than those who sacrifice their person and riches!

Those who understand the sunyata of phenomena, believe in karma and its results, are more wonderful than wonderful, more astonishing than astonishing!

Wishing to protect living beings, they take rebirth in the mud of existence. Unsullied by its events, they are like a lotus in the mire.

Though sons of the Buddha such as Samantabhadra have consumed the fuel of the klesas through the cognitive fire of sunyata, the waters of compassion still flow within them!

Having come under the guiding power of compassion they display the descent [from Tusita], birth, merriments, renunciation, ascetic practices, great enlightenment, victory over the hosts of Mara, turning of the Dharmacakra, the request of all the gods, and [the entry into] nirvana.

Having emanated such forms as Brahma, Indra, Visnu, and Rudra, they present through their compassionate natures a performance suitable to beings in need of guidance.

Two knowledges arise [from] the Mahayana to give comfort and ease to those who journey in sorrow along life's path— so it is said. But [this] is not the ultimate meaning.

As long as they have not been admonished by the Buddhas, Sravakas in a bodily state of cognition remain in a swoon, intoxicated by samadhi.

But once admonished, they devote themselves to living beings in varied ways. Accumulating stores of merit and knowledge, they obtain the enlightenment of Buddhas.

As the potentiality of both, the vasanas are said to be the seed. That seed, the accumulation of things, produces the sprout of life.

The teachings of the protectors of the world accord with the resolve of living beings. The Buddhas employ a wealth of skillful means, which take many worldly forms.

They are either profound or vast; at times they are both. Though they sometimes may differ, they are invariably characterized by sunyata and non-duality.

Whatever the dharams, stages, and paramitas of the Buddhas, the omniscient have stated that they form a part of bodhicitta.

Those who thus always benefit living beings through body, words, and mind advocate the claims of sunyata, not the contentions of annihilation.

The magnanimous do not abide in nirvana or samsara. Therefore the Buddhas have spoken of this as "the non-abiding nirvana"

The unique elixir of compassion functions as merit, the elixir of sunyata functions as the highest. Those who drink it for the sake of themselves and others are sons of the Buddha.

Salute these Bodhisattvas with your entire being! Always worthy of honor in the three worlds, guides of the world, they strive to represent the lineage of the Buddhas.

The Mahayana bodhicitta is said to be the very best. So produce bodhicitta through firm and balanced efforts.

In existence there is no other means for the realization of one's own and others' benefit. The Buddhas have until now seen no means apart from bodhicitta.

Simply by generating bodhicitta a mass of merit is collected. If it took form, it would more than fill the expanse of space!

If a person developed bodhicitta only for a moment, not even the Jinas could calculate the mass of his merit!

The one finest jewel is a precious mind free of klesas. Robbers like the klesas or Mara cannot steal or damage it.

Just as the high aspirations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in samsara are unswerving, those who set their course on bodhicitta must make resolve.

No matter how amazing, you must make efforts as explained. Thereafter you yourself will understand the course of Samantabhadra!

Through the incomparable merit I have now collected by praising the excellent bodhicitta praised by the excellent Jinas, may living beings submerged in the waves of life's ocean gain a foothold on the path followed by the leader of those who walk on two legs.
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Thangpa wrote:
With a determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.

Whenever I associate with others I will learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart.

In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.

I will learn to cherish beings of bad nature
And those oppressed by strong sins and suffering
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find.

When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take on all loss,
And offer victory to them.

When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.

In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.

I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Kelly Jones wrote: --- Problem is, Nagarjuna advises overcoming compassion (as a lesser path), while Thangpa endorses it !

Huh?
Nagarjuna wrote: The sons of the Buddha are active in developing enlightenment, which has steadfast compassion as its root, grows from the sprout of bodhicitta, and has the benefit of others as its sole fruit.
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

If you keep reading through Nagarjuna's text, he goes on to contextualise that compassion as a lesser path:
The unique elixir of compassion functions as merit, the elixir of sunyata functions as the highest.
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clyde
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Kelly;

It is my understanding, limited as it is and without reference to any particular writing, that Nagarjuna understood wisdom and compassion as the functioning of sunyata. It is also my understanding that this is a Mahayana and Varjayana teaching.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by BMcGilly07 »

Kelly, where did you find Nagarjuna's text? I would very much like to discover as much of his work as is available. Thanks,

Bryan


p.s.

What do you guys think about this awesome new avatar from the Llama's website, should I use it?
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

Bryan,

I plucked that text from Lindtner's translation at bodhicitta.net. Lindtner's is too verbose a translation [as he uses too many extra words in brackets]. This makes it hard to read [to most readers anyway]. I deleted most of it [those unnecessary bits, I mean].

David's selection of Buddhist writings is so clear. But a trawl through the web should reveal that. It's a joy to find dechaffed versions.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

clyde wrote: It is my understanding, limited as it is and without reference to any particular writing, that Nagarjuna understood wisdom and compassion as the functioning of sunyata. It is also my understanding that this is a Mahayana and Varjayana teaching.
Mahayana means going all the way. It is the surest, hardest, most Truth-oriented path, and it does not settle for piddling bypaths.

Compassion is a lower stage of Mahayana, because it is not pure Truth. The vow to save all beings, meaning, not to permit any delusional thought in the mind, however subtle, is a corrective for attachment to same delusional thoughts. It is a meritorious vow, because it compels one to ask, "what is the final solution to delusion?" And thus, to apply the correction.

The higher path is the correction: sunyata. To realise that all beings, all delusions, all attachments, and all imperfections, are empty of inherent existence. To realise that a compassionate being is empty, and that acts of compassion have no merit.

So what I'm saying, is that the Dalai Lama shouldn't be compromising the hard truths of Nagarjuna. As Bryan points out, he wants to be popular with the ladies, rather than truthful. Speaking of having a peep under gurus' robes...... Spare us their pussy-whipped compassion.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Sapius »

Spare us their pussy-whipped compassion.
Heheheee… Well said, Kelly, well said… however… could you please clarify… you said in another thread…
Kelly Jones wrote:So, you can tell them till you're blue in the face, that finite things don't inherently exist, and that Ultimate Truth is all there is, but it just won't work. They don't understand that there really is no truth, no falsehood, no things --- because of the belief that "my boundaries are really and truly there".


And then YOU ask… I mean “you” as a boundary, which supposedly really and truly isn’t there… So I take it you mean illusory…
Kelly Jones wrote:What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?-
Identifying another illusory boundary… Dalai lama that is…

Any ways… how about the boundary that identifies truth (that ‘finite things don’t inherently exist’) against falsehood (that ‘finite things inherently exist’)? Are these distinguishable boundaries really and truly not there?

In my experience, there has to necessarily be real and true boundaries to words and their meanings, irrelevant of their non-inherent (utterly dependent) nature, for anything at all to really hold meaningful values; If those boundaries are not really and truly there, then truth and falsehood are not really and truly there. Making all logically reasoned distinctions meaningless.

Even Totality as infinite that it may be, is utterly dependant on finite things (or their distinguishable qualities - boundaries); hence at least THAT logical boundary has to be taken into consideration.

So which is it? Are boundaries really and truely there or not, irrelevant of their temporal and dependant nature? If not really and truly there, then your issues with the Lama are illusory. If they are really and truly there, then I can really and truly consider your position.

Please make yourself clear with the fundamentals first.
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

Sapius wrote: Any ways… how about the boundary that identifies truth (that ‘finite things don’t inherently exist’) against falsehood (that ‘finite things inherently exist’)? Are these distinguishable boundaries really and truly not there?
The "boundary" between truth and falsehood is part and parcel of consciousness. It is inescapable. Yet this boundary is really not there, because falsehoods are, inescapably, falsehoods.

In my experience, there has to necessarily be real and true boundaries to words and their meanings, irrelevant of their non-inherent (utterly dependent) nature, for anything at all to really hold meaningful values;
Since all meanings are what they are, i.e. true to their own nature, then where lies the real and true boundary to non-meaning?

If those boundaries are not really and truly there, then truth and falsehood are not really and truly there. Making all logically reasoned distinctions meaningless.
Ultimately, there is no distinction between truth and falsehood, for the reason that truth does not exist. Being absolute, how could it be?


Even Totality as infinite that it may be, is utterly dependant on finite things (or their distinguishable qualities - boundaries); hence at least THAT logical boundary has to be taken into consideration.
Your statement is illogical, and therefore meaningless. The Totality is not dependent on finite things, because it is not separate to finite things. It is not, for instance, a thing that is not-finite, making it a finite thing that is not-finite.


So which is it? Are boundaries really and truely there or not, irrelevant of their temporal and dependant nature?
If you take away the relativity of boundaries, then by definition, you take away the boundary. The relativity of boundaries is what indicates they aren't really there.

If not really and truly there, then your issues with the Lama are illusory. If they are really and truly there, then I can really and truly consider your position.
Without there existing a boundary between truths and falsehoods, it would not be known to be illusory.

Please make yourself clear with the fundamentals first.
Any clearer?


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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Sapius »

Kelly wrote;
The "boundary" between truth and falsehood is part and parcel of consciousness. It is inescapable. Yet this boundary is really not there, because falsehoods are, inescapably, falsehoods.
If falsehoods are inescapably falsehoods, then boundaries are inescapably boundaries, for you to coherently understand falsehoods.
Since all meanings are what they are, i.e. true to their own nature, then where lies the real and true boundary to non-meaning?
Where meanings stop to make logically coherent sense, there begins the boundary to non-meaning, incoherency, illogical statements, and therefore meaningless. I think you are aware of it.
Ultimately, there is no distinction between truth and falsehood, for the reason that truth does not exist. Being absolute, how could it be?
So Ultimately there is no distinction between truth and falsehood becasue truth does not exist. So why does an un-ultimate, illusory distinction bother or irritate you? Does the Lama or what he says have any more real and true boundaries that make you react the way you do? Are you saying that illusory boundaries have real effects on you? Or are the boundaries of your effects (what you are trying to meaningfully convey) not really and truly there…? hence hold no real meaningful boundaries to your statements... in which case I can safely ignore you. No?
Your statement is illogical, and therefore meaningless. The Totality is not dependent on finite things, because it is not separate to finite things. It is not, for instance, a thing that is not-finite, making it a finite thing that is not-finite.
Illogical indeed. So tell me how can a though of Totality arise if it were not for boundaries, things, that meaningfully hold such understandings? And by the mere fact that you call Totality a thing, makes it an object in and of boundaries, namely ‘a thing that has no boundaries’, which is what it means, isn’t it? hence that though holds meaningful boundaries. Does it not?
If you take away the relativity of boundaries, then by definition, you take away the boundary. The relativity of boundaries is what indicates they aren't really there.
If? Try it. Without boundaries, noting exists, not even the boundary to the understanding of Totality as not being a thing.
Without there existing a boundary between truths and falsehoods, it would not be known to be illusory.
OK, so now it is the boundaries that exist between truths and falsehoods that make them illusory. And this is supposed to make logical sense? In any case, why do such illusory boundaries bother you? I mean the ones found between masculinity/femininity, brutality/compassion, so on and so forth… Thay are illusory after all.
Any clearer?
Not really.
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Kelly;

Mahayana literally means “great vehicle” and encompasses many traditions, including Ch’an/Zen and the many forms of Pure Land. Varjayana is the Tibetan branch and is usually considered a part of the Mahayana tradition.

As you wrote, the realization of sunyata is the “correction” (or medicine, to use a traditional Buddhist metaphor). But even sunyata is empty and one is not to cling to sunyata.

As for “pussy-whipped compassion”, I believe your confusing mundane sympathy with the compassion of a bodhisattva which is based on wisdom and courage; i.e., the wisdom of seeing reality as it is and the courage to live in conformity with that realization.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

Sapius wrote:
K: The "boundary" between truth and falsehood is part and parcel of consciousness. It is inescapable. Yet this boundary is really not there, because falsehoods are, inescapably, falsehoods.

S: If falsehoods are inescapably falsehoods, then boundaries are inescapably boundaries, for you to coherently understand falsehoods.
Yes, notice that if all boundaries are what they are, that Truth must be everywhere the same. So the boundaries between all these separate truths is not actually there.


K: Since all meanings are what they are, i.e. true to their own nature, then where lies the real and true boundary to non-meaning?

S: Where meanings stop to make logically coherent sense, there begins the boundary to non-meaning, incoherency, illogical statements, and therefore meaningless. I think you are aware of it.
No, I meant, since all meanings, illogical and logical, are what they are, therefore there is no boundary beyond which lies non-meaning.

This is, of course, from a logical point of view. An insane person would deny they're hacking their own feet off.


K: Ultimately, there is no distinction between truth and falsehood, for the reason that truth does not exist. Being absolute, how could it be?

S: So Ultimately there is no distinction between truth and falsehood becasue truth does not exist. So why does an un-ultimate, illusory distinction bother or irritate you? Does the Lama or what he says have any more real and true boundaries that make you react the way you do? Are you saying that illusory boundaries have real effects on you? Or are the boundaries of your effects (what you are trying to meaningfully convey) not really and truly there…? hence hold no real meaningful boundaries to your statements... in which case I can safely ignore you. No?
Because Truth does not exist relatively, meaning, it is everywhere and everything, illogic is what it is, and logic is what it is, too.

There's no fundamental reason why the Dalai Lama should understand and express wise truths. One who accepts the mantle of a Buddha is free to speak lies, should he be caused to.

By the same token, I am free to express wise truths ---- in their most obvious and clear form ---- and to try to get others to behave similarly.



K: Your statement is illogical, and therefore meaningless. The Totality is not dependent on finite things, because it is not separate to finite things. It is not, for instance, a thing that is not-finite, making it a finite thing that is not-finite.

S: So tell me how can a though of Totality arise if it were not for boundaries, things, that meaningfully hold such understandings?
A truthful thought reflecting the boundlessness of the Totality, can also conclude that its own true nature, is also boundlessness.

Thoughts are not containers with changing contents. "Thought" is an unchanging label, that seems to imply an unchanging object.


S: And by the mere fact that you call Totality a thing, makes it an object in and of boundaries, namely ‘a thing that has no boundaries’, which is what it means, isn’t it? hence that though holds meaningful boundaries. Does it not?
The Totality is a "thing" that is not-finite, for the sake of contrast to a "thing" that is finite. These logical boundaries are points of departure, not final truths.


K: If you take away the relativity of boundaries, then by definition, you take away the boundary. The relativity of boundaries is what indicates they aren't really there.

S: If? Try it. Without boundaries, noting exists, not even the boundary to the understanding of Totality as not being a thing.
Yes, it means that no matter what understanding of the Totality one experiences, it is still a bounded thing. It is not itself the Totality. Or more accurately, that all "bounded" things are the Totality.

Truth-consciousness is Truth-oriented thoughts, beliefs, experiences.....so long as one is conscious.


K: Without there existing a boundary between truths and falsehoods, it would not be known to be illusory.

S: OK, so now it is the boundaries that exist between truths and falsehoods that make them illusory. And this is supposed to make logical sense?
The fact that all boundaries are causes, all meaningful, and all true-to-their-nature-appearances, should reveal that they aren't ultimately real.


S: In any case, why do such illusory boundaries bother you? I mean the ones found between masculinity/femininity, brutality/compassion, so on and so forth… Thay are illusory after all.
Reality isn't nothing whatsoever. All the forms that appear are the "form" of Reality. Including the forms that clearly point towards Truth-awareness, and those that do not.

The emotional component in making judgments, arises when one's forms aren't Truth-conscious. One doesn't stop judging and making distinctions so long as one is conscious, no matter even if there are no more illogicalities in one's experience.


K: Any clearer?

S: Not really.
How's it looking now?

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

clyde wrote: It is my understanding, limited as it is and without reference to any particular writing, that Nagarjuna understood wisdom and compassion as the functioning of sunyata. It is also my understanding that this is a Mahayana and Varjayana teaching.

Mahayana literally means “great vehicle” and encompasses many traditions, including Ch’an/Zen and the many forms of Pure Land. Varjayana is the Tibetan branch and is usually considered a part of the Mahayana tradition.
I ignore all the ritual and tradition, because it obscures the vital teaching. It is like saying, "There is a Great Vehicle, but you can only use it if you fill in these forms, stand in these queues, make these vows, change your name to Tenzin Yeshe Namgyang, chant these unintelligible foreign words, pay your donations, learn how to hit a gong nicely, and attend courses 1 through to 10." It's a load of codswallop. Beer made out of testicles, in other words.


As you wrote, the realization of sunyata is the “correction” (or medicine, to use a traditional Buddhist metaphor). But even sunyata is empty and one is not to cling to sunyata.
And this realisation doesn't arise through a will to compassion (ie. abhorrence of suffering), but by a will to truth and reason (ie. abhorrence of falsehood).

As for “pussy-whipped compassion”, I believe your confusing mundane sympathy with the compassion of a bodhisattva which is based on wisdom and courage; i.e., the wisdom of seeing reality as it is and the courage to live in conformity with that realization.
I'm talking about the abhorrence of suffering per se. That is the Dalai Lama's deliberate core message. It makes him popular, because it fits in with the popular delusion that peace, security, comfort, and happiness are pretty much the same as Nirvana.

He might talk about bodhicitta, the uncompromising will to Truth. But, it's nowhere to be seen on his website. And his lectures greatly dilute it, by focussing on helping laypeople to live in harmony with each other, rather than putting pressure on each other to hold rational, intellectually correct views.

This is the main problem, the pussy-whippedness, because Daily Lamer is supporting the view that intellectualising causes suffering, that thinking and debating and conceptual investigation is the source of conflict. Talk about Evil Karma. He's been reborn as a fox quadrillions of times.


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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Kelly Jones wrote:
clyde wrote: It is my understanding, limited as it is and without reference to any particular writing, that Nagarjuna understood wisdom and compassion as the functioning of sunyata. It is also my understanding that this is a Mahayana and Varjayana teaching.

Mahayana literally means “great vehicle” and encompasses many traditions, including Ch’an/Zen and the many forms of Pure Land. Varjayana is the Tibetan branch and is usually considered a part of the Mahayana tradition.
I ignore all the ritual and tradition, because it obscures the vital teaching. It is like saying, "There is a Great Vehicle, but you can only use it if you fill in these forms, stand in these queues, make these vows, change your name to Tenzin Yeshe Namgyang, chant these unintelligible foreign words, pay your donations, learn how to hit a gong nicely, and attend courses 1 through to 10." It's a load of codswallop. Beer made out of testicles, in other words.
For one who ignores “all the ritual and tradition” you read Nagarjuna and Geshe Thangpa, and post your objection to the Dalai Lama teaching. What are these things to you? Nagarjuna and Geshe Thangpa were part of a tradition and followed rituals, and the Dalai Lama is part of a tradition and follows rituals. As you noted, you may take what vital teachings you find and leave the rest.

Kelly Jones wrote:
As you wrote, the realization of sunyata is the “correction” (or medicine, to use a traditional Buddhist metaphor). But even sunyata is empty and one is not to cling to sunyata.
And this realisation doesn't arise through a will to compassion (ie. abhorrence of suffering), but by a will to truth and reason (ie. abhorrence of falsehood).
Not entirely true. What drives you to realization is what drives you, but others may be driven by other means. Is it a concern of yours how or why another experiences realization? It seems to me that the wise and compassionate position is to assist others to realization in a manner that is best for them, not for you or me.
Kelly Jones wrote:
As for “pussy-whipped compassion”, I believe your confusing mundane sympathy with the compassion of a bodhisattva which is based on wisdom and courage; i.e., the wisdom of seeing reality as it is and the courage to live in conformity with that realization.
I'm talking about the abhorrence of suffering per se. That is the Dalai Lama's deliberate core message. It makes him popular, because it fits in with the popular delusion that peace, security, comfort, and happiness are pretty much the same as Nirvana.

He might talk about bodhicitta, the uncompromising will to Truth. But, it's nowhere to be seen on his website. And his lectures greatly dilute it, by focussing on helping laypeople to live in harmony with each other, rather than putting pressure on each other to hold rational, intellectually correct views.

This is the main problem, the pussy-whippedness, because Daily Lamer is supporting the view that intellectualising causes suffering, that thinking and debating and conceptual investigation is the source of conflict. Talk about Evil Karma. He's been reborn as a fox quadrillions of times.

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I have read a few of the Dalai Lama’s books and I have not read him advocate an “abhorrence of suffering per se”. He has written commentary on the Four Noble Truths of suffering, which are human truths, not abstractions.
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

clyde wrote: For one who ignores “all the ritual and tradition” you read Nagarjuna and Geshe Thangpa, and post your objection to the Dalai Lama teaching. What are these things to you?
To me, Thangpa and the Lamer are obscurists, more than anything.

Nagarjuna and Geshe Thangpa were part of a tradition and followed rituals,
You might see Nagarjuna as a traditionalist, but I don't.

and the Dalai Lama is part of a tradition and follows rituals.
Yes.

As you noted, you may take what vital teachings you find and leave the rest.
Part of taking vital teaching is helping to destroy the religious attitude that keeps spewing out dead corpses.


Kelly Jones wrote: C: As you wrote, the realization of sunyata is the “correction” (or medicine, to use a traditional Buddhist metaphor). But even sunyata is empty and one is not to cling to sunyata.

K: And this realisation doesn't arise through a will to compassion (ie. abhorrence of suffering), but by a will to truth and reason (ie. abhorrence of falsehood).

C: Not entirely true. What drives you to realization is what drives you, but others may be driven by other means.
There's no difference whether it's me or someone else, at the level at which I am speaking.

C: Is it a concern of yours how or why another experiences realization? It seems to me that the wise and compassionate position is to assist others to realization in a manner that is best for them, not for you or me.
Bodhicitta is the one vital, powerful attitude, that drives every genuine student of the Infinite. It is the compassionate position, because it doesn't approve of bedding down in an incomplete understanding, and such unnecessary prolonging of stupidity. It doesn't sanction any other behaviour than striving for the true heart ---- the logical, ruthless, fully-liberated core ---- of wisdom. Why? Because it is absolutely logical.


Kelly Jones wrote: C: As for “pussy-whipped compassion”, I believe your confusing mundane sympathy with the compassion of a bodhisattva which is based on wisdom and courage; i.e., the wisdom of seeing reality as it is and the courage to live in conformity with that realization.

K: I'm talking about the abhorrence of suffering per se. That is the Dalai Lama's deliberate core message. It makes him popular, because it fits in with the popular delusion that peace, security, comfort, and happiness are pretty much the same as Nirvana. He might talk about bodhicitta, the uncompromising will to Truth. But, it's nowhere to be seen on his website. And his lectures greatly dilute it, by focussing on helping laypeople to live in harmony with each other, rather than putting pressure on each other to hold rational, intellectually correct views. This is the main problem, the pussy-whippedness, because Daily Lamer is supporting the view that intellectualising causes suffering, that thinking and debating and conceptual investigation is the source of conflict. Talk about Evil Karma. He's been reborn as a fox quadrillions of times.

C: I have read a few of the Dalai Lama’s books and I have not read him advocate an “abhorrence of suffering per se”. He has written commentary on the Four Noble Truths of suffering, which are human truths, not abstractions.
The "suffering" of the Four Noble Truths is "mindstate of attachment", so freedom from suffering does not mean happiness, but non-attachment.

Here is how I would write them:

1. Attachment to things is suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is lack of intellectual understanding about Reality.

3. Understanding the nature of Reality is possible through reason.

4. The path of non-attachment is wholly rational.


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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

You might see Nagarjuna as a traditionalist, but I don't.
The issue is not how you or I see Nagarjuna, but how did he see himself . . . or how do we think Nagarjuna saw himself. I am not a scholar, but I think, based on my reading and studying, Nagarjuna saw himself as part of a tradition.
Part of taking vital teaching is helping to destroy the religious attitude that keeps spewing out dead corpses.
Which “vital teaching” teaches to destroy traditions?
C: As you wrote, the realization of sunyata is the “correction” (or medicine, to use a traditional Buddhist metaphor). But even sunyata is empty and one is not to cling to sunyata.

K: And this realisation doesn't arise through a will to compassion (ie. abhorrence of suffering), but by a will to truth and reason (ie. abhorrence of falsehood).

C: Not entirely true. What drives you to realization is what drives you, but others may be driven by other means.

K: There's no difference whether it's me or someone else, at the level at which I am speaking.
There’s no difference in means, at the level at which you are speaking.
Bodhicitta is the one vital, powerful attitude, that drives every genuine student of the Infinite. It is the compassionate position, because it doesn't approve of bedding down in an incomplete understanding, and such unnecessary prolonging of stupidity. It doesn't sanction any other behaviour than striving for the true heart ---- the logical, ruthless, fully-liberated core ---- of wisdom.
: )
Why? Because it is absolutely logical.
: (
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

clyde wrote: C: I think, based on my reading and studying, Nagarjuna saw himself as part of a tradition.

K: Part of taking vital teaching is helping to destroy the religious attitude that keeps spewing out dead corpses.

C: Which “vital teaching” teaches to destroy traditions?
What do you define "tradition" as ? What is it ?

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

tradition: an established belief or teaching (e.g. – Madhyamaka: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka ), that which you ignore (“I ignore all the ritual and tradition”)
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

But what about rationality ?

I hope you're not going to say, the longer a teaching's been around, the more rational it must be.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Rationality is a wonderful teaching. Do you ignore that tradition too? Or do you pick and choose the teachings that satisfy you (as I believe we all do)?
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

clyde wrote: Rationality is a wonderful teaching. Do you ignore that tradition too?
I don't bow down to it blindly. I've tested its validity by seeing that there's no way I can use irrationality and come up with sane answers.

In that sense, rationality is not an empty ritual, performed to please others. At least that's how I aim to use it.

Or do you pick and choose the teachings that satisfy you (as I believe we all do)?
This is another "tradition" performed to please others. It's mediocre, safe, toeing the line, preserving attachments.... I mean, what exactly does "satisfy" mean?

I pick and choose the rational teachings, using reason, as reason satisfies me most of the time. That also helps me to tell which teachings to blacklist.

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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by clyde »

Kelly Jones wrote:. . . as reason satisfies me most of the time.
"No one tool works all the time, for all human beings." -- Bernie Glassman
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Sapius »

Kelly wrote;
Yes, notice that if all boundaries are what they are, that Truth must be everywhere the same. So the boundaries between all these separate truths is not actually there.
How does the truth that ‘boundaries are what they are’, which applies everywhere and every-when, all of a sudden remove the boundaries itself for no rhyme or reason? Incidentally, you are removing the boundaries on which THAT truth is dependant on, hence If boundaries are not actually there, then so is the truth that “boundaries are what they are” also NOT there. No? A new truth then apparently appears, namely, ‘boundaries are NOT what they are’. Please makeup your mind.
K: Since all meanings are what they are, i.e. true to their own nature, then where lies the real and true boundary to non-meaning?

S: Where meanings stop to make logically coherent sense, there begins the boundary to non-meaning, incoherency, illogical statements, and therefore meaningless. I think you are aware of it.

K: No, I meant, since all meanings, illogical and logical, are what they are, therefore there is no boundary beyond which lies non-meaning.

This is, of course, from a logical point of view. An insane person would deny they're hacking their own feet off.
You mean, meanings =(logical + illogical) / non-meaning? Consciousness cannot exist other than in and of boundaries. No boundaries, no consciousness.

On the other hand; Since I don’t really get what you mean; exactly from a logical point of view that is. Try defining meanings, logical, illogical, non-meaning, and yes… boundary.
Because Truth does not exist relatively, meaning, it is everywhere and everything, illogic is what it is, and logic is what it is, too.
So Truth exists without untruth being around? Truth is necessarily dependant on and against non-truth. Give me one Truth and I shall dish out the opposite, without which, that truth cannot be considered as TRUTH. Unless you mean Truth (with a capitol T) = God, Absolute, in which case... good luck.
There's no fundamental reason why the Dalai Lama should understand and express wise truths. One who accepts the mantle of a Buddha is free to speak lies, should he be caused to.
And you have a fundamental reason without a mantle? In any case… the real point is that you don’t seem to recognize the boundaries between lies/truth; they aren’t really and truly there you say; so you are actually arguing against your own enlightened-ness; against the Truth that boundaries are what they are, namely, boundaries.

And how and why should the boundaries that do not really and truly exist, really and truly agitate you? For example, the Dalai Lama’s illogical message of compassion.

Or are you saying that your objections are but an act? It should be…. because you too are equally caused as well. Hence causality if taken as an Absolute, (say like a God creating logical + illogical), then your particular “reasoning” becomes redundant, since the REAL puller of the strings, either way, is causality. Hence becomes wholly and solely responsible for any and all effects; and since boundaries do not really and truly exist, so where does the contrast (lies/truth) really and truly exist? So why should I take what you say any more seriously. There are no real and true boundaries between truth and un-truth, logical and illogical, both are simply caused effects, so where does individual reasoning hold any value either way?



In your Jason’s reality thread… you asked Jason…
Kelly: Are you saying that, since delusion is possible, it is the same as, and as logical as, enlightenment ?

Jason: No
He says no, but what you are effectually saying in your above argument is YES, by claiming that boundaries aren’t really and truly there. You are denying that differentiation by making such a claim. If boundaries aren’t really and truly there, then what is your reasoning really and truly based on… Unreal and untrue superficial boundaries? So how real and true can your conclusions be?
By the same token, I am free to express wise truths ---- in their most obvious and clear form ---- and to try to get others to behave similarly.
To begin with; who others? Are you talking about boundaries? They don’t really and truly exist. What fundamental difference would your wise truths make?
S: So tell me how can a though of Totality arise if it were not for boundaries, things, that meaningfully hold such understandings?

K: A truthful thought reflecting the boundlessness of the Totality, can also conclude that its own true nature, is also boundlessness.
Well said, but I’m not interested in poetry. I want to see some logical substance.
S: And by the mere fact that you call Totality a thing, makes it an object in and of boundaries, namely ‘a thing that has no boundaries’, which is what it means, isn’t it? hence that though holds meaningful boundaries. Does it not?

K: The Totality is a "thing" that is not-finite, for the sake of contrast to a "thing" that is finite. These logical boundaries are points of departure, not final truths.
All I can then say is; Praise the Lord the Totality.
K: If you take away the relativity of boundaries, then by definition, you take away the boundary. The relativity of boundaries is what indicates they aren't really there.

S: If? Try it. Without boundaries, noting exists, not even the boundary to the understanding of Totality as not being a thing.

K: Yes, it means that no matter what understanding of the Totality one experiences, it is still a bounded thing. It is not itself the Totality. Or more accurately, that all "bounded" things are the Totality.
OK, so Totality simply means 'All boundaries'. Now that you acknowledge that boundaries have some real and true values, I can now give some serious thoughts to your objections against the Dalai Lama’s message of compassion.
K: The fact that all boundaries are causes, all meaningful, and all true-to-their-nature-appearances, should reveal that they aren't ultimately real.
There you go again… Well, I’m happy that it has been revealed to “you” then. Lucky you!
S: In any case, why do such illusory boundaries bother you? I mean the ones found between masculinity/femininity, brutality/compassion, so on and so forth… Thay are illusory after all.

K: Reality isn't nothing whatsoever. All the forms that appear are the "form" of Reality. Including the forms that clearly point towards Truth-awareness, and those that do not.

The emotional component in making judgments, arises when one's forms aren't Truth-conscious. One doesn't stop judging and making distinctions so long as one is conscious, no matter even if there are no more illogicalities in one's experience.
Once you say that “all the forms that appear are the “forms’ OF Reality”, that alone tells me how disconnected you are form “IT”.
How's it looking now?
Back to square one I guess. However, if boundaries aren't really and truly there, then I have no good reason to participate in a facade? Do I?
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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by Kelly Jones »

Sapius,
K: Yes, notice that if all boundaries are what they are, that Truth must be everywhere the same. So the boundaries between all these separate truths is not actually there.

S: How does the truth that ‘boundaries are what they are’, which applies everywhere and every-when, all of a sudden remove the boundaries itself for no rhyme or reason?
I didn't say that boundaries are annihilated, because I do not say that the true nature of things is absolutely nothing at all. I said boundaries, or things, are not really there.

Incidentally, you are removing the boundaries on which THAT truth is dependant on, hence If boundaries are not actually there, then so is the truth that “boundaries are what they are” also NOT there. No? A new truth then apparently appears, namely, ‘boundaries are NOT what they are’. Please makeup your mind.
The truth that things don't inherently exist also applies to itself.

I don’t really get what you mean; exactly from a logical point of view that is. Try defining meanings, logical, illogical, non-meaning, and yes… boundary.
Let's approach it from A=A.

A is itself, and nothing else. That is what "logical" refers to.

A is not itself, but rather someting else. That is what "illogical" refers to.

Meaning hinges on A=A. Meanings are anything that is experienced as what it is.

So there is no such thing as non-meaning.

Boundary is what logically separates a thing from what it is not. It is a logical, definitional rule that one uses to sort different identities.


K: Because Truth does not exist relatively, meaning, it is everywhere and everything, illogic is what it is, and logic is what it is, too.

S: So Truth exists without untruth being around? Truth is necessarily dependant on and against non-truth. Give me one Truth and I shall dish out the opposite, without which, that truth cannot be considered as TRUTH. Unless you mean Truth (with a capitol T) = God, Absolute, in which case... good luck.
Is untruth = untruth? Truth is dependent on untruth for an insane person.


K: There's no fundamental reason why the Dalai Lama should understand and express wise truths. One who accepts the mantle of a Buddha is free to speak lies, should he be caused to.

S: And you have a fundamental reason without a mantle?
I am causes also.


S: In any case… the real point is that you don’t seem to recognize the boundaries between lies/truth; they aren’t really and truly there you say; so you are actually arguing against your own enlightened-ness; against the Truth that boundaries are what they are, namely, boundaries.
I am relying on that boundary to show its true nature.


And how and why should the boundaries that do not really and truly exist, really and truly agitate you? For example, the Dalai Lama’s illogical message of compassion.
There's no intrinsic law in nature that says logic goes out the window on realising the nature of boundaries.

Or that that realisation should promptly be ignored, and emptiness become a desireable thing.


Or are you saying that your objections are but an act? It should be…. because you too are equally caused as well. Hence causality if taken as an Absolute, (say like a God creating logical + illogical), then your particular “reasoning” becomes redundant, since the REAL puller of the strings, either way, is causality. Hence becomes wholly and solely responsible for any and all effects; and since boundaries do not really and truly exist, so where does the contrast (lies/truth) really and truly exist? So why should I take what you say any more seriously. There are no real and true boundaries between truth and un-truth, logical and illogical, both are simply caused effects, so where does individual reasoning hold any value either way?
It comes down to what you're caused to value.

Sapius wrote: In your Jason’s reality thread… you asked Jason…
Kelly: Are you saying that, since delusion is possible, it is the same as, and as logical as, enlightenment ?

Jason: No
He says no, but what you are effectually saying in your above argument is YES, by claiming that boundaries aren’t really and truly there. You are denying that differentiation by making such a claim. If boundaries aren’t really and truly there, then what is your reasoning really and truly based on… Unreal and untrue superficial boundaries? So how real and true can your conclusions be?
Things exist relatively. In that sense, they do exist, they do appear, we do construct logical boundaries. I have never argued to the contrary. We can use these mental boundaries, to construct definitions for things that reflect our purposes.

If our purpose is to define a thing that means "Ultimate Reality", then the thing has the logical boundary that includes every thing. When we then reason that there is nothing on the "other side" of that logical boundary, we realise that Reality cannot exist relatively, in the same way that all our other things exist.

And, in conclusion, that since Ultimate Reality is the true identity of every thing, the logical boundaries we experience are by necessity the same as Ultimate Reality ---- a non-relative type of "thing".

Ultimately speaking.



K: By the same token, I am free to express wise truths ---- in their most obvious and clear form ---- and to try to get others to behave similarly.

S: To begin with; who others? Are you talking about boundaries? They don’t really and truly exist. What fundamental difference would your wise truths make?
Understanding Reality makes no fundamental difference at all. It simply reveals Truth, to those who don't currently understand.



S: So tell me how can a though of Totality arise if it were not for boundaries, things, that meaningfully hold such understandings?

K: A truthful thought reflecting the boundlessness of the Totality, can also conclude that its own true nature, is also boundlessness.

S: Well said, but I’m not interested in poetry. I want to see some logical substance.
It's not poetry. It is a purely logical statement.

Let's take a hamburger. We can logically understand that "Totality - hamburger = not-hamburger". Since we can do this for absolutely any thing in the Totality, including parts of the hamburger, such as the lettuce, the patty, the bread, the sauce, and so on, it is logically true that the Totality can be divided up in infinite ways.

If the hamburger could have rational thoughts about its true nature, it would probably be able to conclude that it has no inherent boundary to itself.




K: If you take away the relativity of boundaries, then by definition, you take away the boundary. The relativity of boundaries is what indicates they aren't really there.

S: If? Try it. Without boundaries, noting exists, not even the boundary to the understanding of Totality as not being a thing.

K: Yes, it means that no matter what understanding of the Totality one experiences, it is still a bounded thing. It is not itself the Totality. Or more accurately, that all "bounded" things are the Totality.

S: OK, so Totality simply means 'All boundaries'. Now that you acknowledge that boundaries have some real and true values, I can now give some serious thoughts to your objections against the Dalai Lama’s message of compassion.
I think you might be thinking of the Totality as having relative existence to a thing "outside" it, called the non-Totality. If so, remember the Totality is all boundaries, all things. So it cannot, by definition, have an external boundary.



S: In any case, why do such illusory boundaries bother you? I mean the ones found between masculinity/femininity, brutality/compassion, so on and so forth… Thay are illusory after all.

K: Reality isn't nothing whatsoever. All the forms that appear are the "form" of Reality. Including the forms that clearly point towards Truth-awareness, and those that do not.

The emotional component in making judgments, arises when one's forms aren't Truth-conscious. One doesn't stop judging and making distinctions so long as one is conscious, no matter even if there are no more illogicalities in one's experience.

S: Once you say that “all the forms that appear are the “forms’ OF Reality”, that alone tells me how disconnected you are form “IT”.
Can you provide some reasoning?



K: How's it looking now?

S: Back to square one I guess. However, if boundaries aren't really and truly there, then I have no good reason to participate in a facade? Do I?
If you mean, to pretend one knows what one doesn't, I don't think there's ever good reason for that.


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Re: What's the Dalai Lama trying to do?

Post by keenobserver »

(Moved this to Genius forum, under Dalai Lama thread, ok to kill it here)

I was trying to respond to Shardrol (excuse if misspelt!) without much luck on another thread, Buddhism stuff she said got me thinking.
If you're watching, I had some difficulty with the idea of unenlightened Buddhas or Dalai Lama's (again forgive spelling) and diplomatic function. As I understood the Dalai Lama he is supposed to be descended each time from a previous enlightened person, Buddha replacing Buddha essentially. I mean, the first Buddha selects someone to carry the flag as it were, keep his teaching going, and he selects the most capable person available. If at some point along the line some Dalai has no wise follower to choose from, well then that may have been when the tradition to choose a younger person began, a bright child perhaps. Somewhere along the line the wisdom diluted out (in my opinion) and now we have what we have.
But the work is spiritual always, and the one doing it is supposed to be the most enlightened, wisest person available.
What do you say about this view of things, Shardrol.
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