To the geniuses

[clyde]

To the geniuses of this forum: Why do you want to realize the Truth?

Do no harm,
clyde

[Dan Rowden]

Why do kittens purr? Why do trees spread their roots? Why do republicans suck? It's just their natures...

As an alternative response, you might like to read the first part of this transcript from the radio series Hour of Judgement:

Examining the Hosts

[sschaula]

Basically what Dan is saying is that geniuses are unconscious, and their value system is no better than a sex addict's.

[clyde]

Excerpted from Examing the Hosts:

Kevin: I wanted the greatest happiness of all.

David: I was more motivated by a fear of being in error.

[Dan Rowden]

Basically what Dan is saying is that geniuses are unconscious, and their value system is no better than a sex addict's.

Values are whims of Nature. We don't get to choose our first order values. From an objective point of view (i.e. an ultimate one) all values are of equal standing. This is a remedial point and one that doesn't have much bearing on anything.

[Dan Rowden]

Excerpted from Examing the Hosts:

Kevin: I wanted the greatest happiness of all.

David: I was more motivated by a fear of being in error.

As that discussion pointed out, the path to wisdom begins with some form of suffering (in the Buddhist sense which incorporates all forms of dissatisfaction). This is true for everyone.

[clyde]

Dan;

That suffering motivates is certainly true.

And did the three geniuses achieve the greatest happiness? Are you actually happy and without suffering?

clyde

[sschaula]

Dan,

Values are whims of Nature. We don't get to choose our first order values. From an objective point of view (i.e. an ultimate one) all values are of equal standing.

From an objective point of view all values are of equal standing.
You hold one value above all others.
Your point of view is not objective.

This is a remedial point and one that doesn't have much bearing on anything.

Yeah, I agree.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan;

That suffering motivates is certainly true.

And did the three geniuses achieve the greatest happiness? Are you actually happy and without suffering?

clyde

Well, "happiness" is a motive that drives one early on the path. After a while one lets go of that in the face of an understanding of what happiness really is. In short, one goes beyond the desire for such a thing. Without suffering? Yes, other than for lingering subtle forms.

[clyde]

Dan;

After you let go of happiness as a motivator, what motivated you to continue?

clyde

[Jamesh]

From an objective point of view (i.e. an ultimate one)

I like this. The only objective point of view is the one that puts oneself outside of all things. Standing on the outside looking in.

The outside perspective after all is partly why we classify infinity as consisting of finite parts, rather than as an infinite existence that contains differentiation.

[Jason]

From an objective point of view (i.e. an ultimate one) all values are of equal standing

Ultimate point of view?

I like this. The only objective point of view is the one that puts oneself outside of all things. Standing on the outside looking in.

Outside everything?


[looks down and shakes head].

[Jamesh]

Outside everything?

Basically that is all one is doing when they try and conceptualise the infinite. It is just a perspective.

Don't you see why we classify things as individual things? It is because we place ourselves outside of them, so we can observe them in what our observations tell us is the entirety of a thing. If one takes an inside perspective, as in imagining onself inside a thing then we will find that the parts and scope of that thing has no limit. An inside perspective is essentially a perspective that tries to assess all causes, which is an impossibility, while an outside perspective just looks at the total pattern or effect of a thing and ignores much of the detail.

[Dan Rowden]

From an objective point of view (i.e. an ultimate one) all values are of equal standing

Ultimate point of view?

Well, yeah, I agree that's an awkward way to make the point. I simply mean that Nature doesn't value or discriminate; we do. There's no such thing as an "ultimate" point of view. One has to speak metaphorically about such things. It doesn't mean anything at all to argue a level playing field of values - that the sage's values are of equal standing to those of anyone else. Values are just what they are and produce the consequences they produce. In other words, what Scott said:

Basically what Dan is saying is that geniuses are unconscious, and their value system is no better than a sex addict's.

simply doesn't mean anything. Though, the first part of what he said is dopey.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan;

After you let go of happiness as a motivator, what motivated you to continue?

It becomes your nature to do so just as it is a beaver's nature to build dams. It's kind of like the difference between utilising reason and actually being a rational person.

[clyde]

It was always your nature.

[keenobserver]

Dan;

That suffering motivates is certainly true.

And did the three geniuses achieve the greatest happiness? Are you actually happy and without suffering?

clyde

Well, "happiness" is a motive that drives one early on the path. After a while one lets go of that in the face of an understanding of what happiness really is. In short, one goes beyond the desire for such a thing. Without suffering? Yes, other than for lingering subtle forms.

What have you got to suffer about?
I would guess you're sitting at home with plenty of time on your hands in a country you apparently feel fortunate to be a citizen, satisfied with the privilige, money enough to lie around with computer and do what you probably enjoy most, mouth off here and there.
You wouldnt last two weeks on a US street.
hah!
You're not tested in the least there, far as i can tell.
I would bet you even have friends, and family you could depend on if the need would arise. No worries about future basics, probably good health. Have you spent much time in a mexican jail? Or had no chance of contact with man or dog for longer than it takes you to take a crap? Try being homeless and begging for food and picking through trash for a meal for a few years, then tell me how immune you are to non-subtle forms of suffering!
hahahaha

[Dan Rowden]

Dan;

That suffering motivates is certainly true.

And did the three geniuses achieve the greatest happiness? Are you actually happy and without suffering?

clyde

Well, "happiness" is a motive that drives one early on the path. After a while one lets go of that in the face of an understanding of what happiness really is. In short, one goes beyond the desire for such a thing. Without suffering? Yes, other than for lingering subtle forms.

What have you got to suffer about?

Your view of "suffering" is crude and lacking in the sort of subtlety necessary for this discussion. As I said in this thread, "suffering" is intended in the Buddhistic sense which includes all forms of dissatisfaction. Suffering just means absence of satisfaction. Lacking knowledge of something is a form of suffering in this sense.

I would guess[......]

I'm not interested in engaging your guesswork about me and my life and what I could or could not deal with.

[keenobserver]

Dan;

That suffering motivates is certainly true.

And did the three geniuses achieve the greatest happiness? Are you actually happy and without suffering?

clyde

Well, "happiness" is a motive that drives one early on the path. After a while one lets go of that in the face of an understanding of what happiness really is. In short, one goes beyond the desire for such a thing. Without suffering? Yes, other than for lingering subtle forms.

What have you got to suffer about?

Your view of "suffering" is crude and lacking in the sort of subtlety necessary for this discussion. As I said in this thread, "suffering" is intended in the Buddhistic sense which includes all forms of dissatisfaction. Suffering just means absence of satisfaction. Lacking knowledge of something is a form of suffering in this sense.

I would guess[......]

I'm not interested in engaging your guesswork about me and my life and what I could or could not deal with.

You're beginning to sound like a woman!

[Dan Rowden]

Oh, Christ, another pretender.