Despisers of the body

[unwise]

Clearly, none of those folk were enlightened. Unwise knows more about enlightenment than any of them did.

All of those quotes were uttered by a SEEKER, not a finder. They were uttered BEFORE enlightenment was obtained. None of these statements make any sense to the one who has obtained.

[Matt Gregory]

"Brothers, simply remake what has gone by and work with what comes. If you do not remake, you are stuck deeply somewhere."

- Chao Chou

[David Quinn]

Unwise wrote:

All of those quotes were uttered by a SEEKER, not a finder. They were uttered BEFORE enlightenment was obtained. None of these statements make any sense to the one who has obtained.

Only the Buddha's words were uttered before he became enlightened a few hours later (funny that). All the other quotes were teachings.

In any case, contrary to what you are saying, these quotes indeed make perfect sense to those who are enlightened. The enlightened person knows exactly how he reached his enlightenment and knows the vital role that effort, will and desire play. It explains why those enlightened masters emphasized those very same values to their students.

The truth is, what you are calling "enlightenment" is completely different to what these enlightened masters were thinking of. You're confusing enlightenment with either altered states or animal-consciousness - or more likely, a combination of both. Neither the experience of altered states, nor the onset of animal-consciousness, requires any desire or will on our part. They can turn up without our even thinking about it.

-

[hades]

everyone here uses the language associated with enlightenment, thats all.

They have conceptions of how an enlightened being should act, or should think based on their own world-view and ideas about it.

This is a joke, as is their idea of enlightenment.

This whole forum is essentially the sum of deluded egos masturbating over their ideas about Enlightenment which is just a projection of another idea they have, that of the Wise man.

The wise man thinks X, Y, Z. How do I know this? Well because I'm wise blablabalbal.

Basically we have here the creation of a new cult.

There is no wisdom, and no enlightenment, there is no way anyone should or shouldn't act. Everyone simply acts, and the rest of your ideas are superimposed on reality, imaginary.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Everyone but you, hades?

Oh wait...

Yellow big gumdrops are infamous: substance? No, carbon monoxide poisoning, obviously.

[hades]

Everyone but you, hades?

Oh wait...

Yellow big gumdrops are infamous: substance? No, carbon monoxide poisoning, obviously.

I don't subscribe to all this enlightenment nonsense, its just another delusional thought people have.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I'm convinced. Enlightenment is thus refuted.

[David Quinn]

Hades,

everyone here uses the language associated with enlightenment, thats all.

They have conceptions of how an enlightened being should act, or should think based on their own world-view and ideas about it.

This is a joke, as is their idea of enlightenment.

This whole forum is essentially the sum of deluded egos masturbating over their ideas about Enlightenment which is just a projection of another idea they have, that of the Wise man.

The wise man thinks X, Y, Z. How do I know this? Well because I'm wise blablabalbal.

Basically we have here the creation of a new cult.

There is no wisdom, and no enlightenment, there is no way anyone should or shouldn't act. Everyone simply acts, and the rest of your ideas are superimposed on reality, imaginary.

As I say, seeing the same point being stated over and over again, without any development or attempt at being coherent, is getting repetitive. Unless you have something fresh to offer or can find a new perspective on things, I think you should take a break for a while. You've made your point, we've thrashed the ins and outs of it to the very end, and now it is time to move on.

If you don't take a break of your own accord, then I'm going to have enforce it as a moderator. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. I don't want this forum permanently stuck in a stasis field simply because a beginner is digging in his heels. Don't come back until you're ready to discover some real wisdom.

-

[hades]

Hades,

everyone here uses the language associated with enlightenment, thats all.

They have conceptions of how an enlightened being should act, or should think based on their own world-view and ideas about it.

This is a joke, as is their idea of enlightenment.

This whole forum is essentially the sum of deluded egos masturbating over their ideas about Enlightenment which is just a projection of another idea they have, that of the Wise man.

The wise man thinks X, Y, Z. How do I know this? Well because I'm wise blablabalbal.

Basically we have here the creation of a new cult.

There is no wisdom, and no enlightenment, there is no way anyone should or shouldn't act. Everyone simply acts, and the rest of your ideas are superimposed on reality, imaginary.

As I say, seeing the same point being stated over and over again, without any development or attempt at being coherent, is getting repetitive. Unless you have something fresh to offer or can find a new perspective on things, I think you should take a break for a while. You've made your point, we've thrashed the ins and outs of it to the very end, and now it is time to move on.

If you don't take a break of your own accord, then I'm going to have enforce it as a moderator. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. I don't want this forum permanently stuck in a stasis field simply because a beginner is digging in his heels. Don't come back until you're ready to discover some real wisdom.

-

I actually left this place a long time ago.
In what sense does this forum even talk about Wisdom or Enlightenment?
The main topics in this section include: a guy wondering if he should have kids, another guy giving advice to time travelers(wtf), another guy who thinks "WHY?" is a complex question, a topic named : Scientific Psychophysiological Benefits of Ascetic Chastity, LOL?

Don't worry, I won't be bothering anyones pursuit of Enlightenment............even though they will never attain it, at least the journey itself will add meaning to their lives, ya? I guess thats a positive point. There we go, even if the beliefs are illusions, you can still fight and argue for them!

[David Quinn]

However misguided those discussions might be, most of them are at least making the attempt to integrate aspects of everyday life with Truth. They aren't blocking out everyday life from their minds, along with their thoughts, and keeping it all separate from Truth, which is what you are attempting to do.

Chuang Tzu said:

"He who knows the part which the Heavenly in him plays, and knows also that which the Human in him ought to play, has reached the perfection of knowledge. "

If you do nothing else but meditate on that quote for the next six months, you will learn a lot.

Here is a Zen story worth thinking about as well:

Flowers rained down on Subhuti. The gods whispered to him "We are
praising you for your discourse on emptiness".
"But I have not spoken of emptiness" said Subhuti.
"You have not spoken of emptiness, we have not heard emptiness",
responded the gods. "This is true emptiness".
Blossoms showered upon Subhuti as rain.

Anyway, see you another time.

-

[Ryan Rudolph]

One pattern I observed is that when someone likes Hades spontaneously emerges and rejects everything enlightenment, at the same time, they have grown incredibly accustomed to vulgar forms of expression, entertainment, pleasures and so on. It is almost as if they have had a stark glimpse of emptiness, and its ramifications were so horrifying, that they regressed back into animal consciousness.

This happened to me a few times.

[Matt Gregory]

I think it's more of a case of their pursuit for pleasure leading them to try out the intellect, which is a road that takes real work and most people don't want to do it. So when they abandon it, they're left with the only kind of gratification they've ever known, immediate gratification.

[DHodges]

It is almost as if they have had a stark glimpse of emptiness, and its ramifications were so horrifying, that they regressed back into animal consciousness.

That sounds familiar. Sometimes it seems that if you reject everything that is a lie, a delusion, that is hollow and meaningless, then there just isn't anything left.

So you grab onto something...

[David Quinn]

Ryan wrote:

One pattern I observed is that when someone likes Hades spontaneously emerges and rejects everything enlightenment, at the same time, they have grown incredibly accustomed to vulgar forms of expression, entertainment, pleasures and so on. It is almost as if they have had a stark glimpse of emptiness, and its ramifications were so horrifying, that they regressed back into animal consciousness.

Yes, there is a surprising link between adopting the philosophy of mindlessness and engaging in mindless behaviour. Who would have thought it?

I think you're right about those kinds of people going a little way with their thought while it remains enjoyable, only to do a U-turn and backtrack out of there as soon as it starts to get difficult and painful. The philosophy of mindlessness which they subsequently adopt is an attempt to marry the pleasure they initially experienced from thought with the pleasure they normally extract out of everyday life. As a result, their attachment to pleasure, which overrides all other concerns, keeps their thought on a very tight leash.

From Poison for the Heart:

Fair-weather sailor

If you think of the Infinite only when things are well for you, it will remain at an infinite distance. If you crave happiness first and foremost, with Truth as a secondary consideration, then as soon as the pain of this world returns to you, worldly antidotes will be your saviour. You will be merely a fair weather sailor, a pleasure craft owner, whose roots are firmly planted on dry land. You will never find your being in the vast oceans. With time however, you may develop a taste for the sea, but how difficult this is, for you who have not seen its fury!

Only the sage will take to the sea in fair weather or storm.

Myself, I am a fisherman. A fisher of men and a lover of the sea and its furies. And if our craft is nearly swamped, I will not hesitate to rock the boat . . . in the hope of sloshing some of the bilgewater over the side. And too, an unsteady boat can quickly give people an appreciation of the sea.

Ah, the freedom! The arrogance!

-

[unwise]

Whoever wrote that silly story about the sage and the boat was pretty arrogant.

The fact remains that everyone will have to live out the karma coming their way - regardless if they are enlightened or not. This is good and evil, pleasure and pain. It involves people you haven't even met yet. I have thousands of years of karma that I am living out now. There is no hope in trying to run and hide from it. IT is bigger than you!

What will happen to the cultists here I already know. They will hit the ripe old age of 60 and realize that they have attained nothing. Furthermore, all that they felt like doing when they were young is no longer possible. They will have practiced, medicated, starved themselves, renunciated, studied, prayed, read and practiced some more. They will have to realize in a moment of isolation and honesty that they have gotten nothing. Then, they will be in a position I was in at 40. And then some of them will remember that I spoke of this.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

They will hit the ripe old age of 60 and realize that they have attained nothing.

Most people die in their chains before realizing that one simple truth: that nothing is attained at all.

And then some of them will remember that I spoke of this.

I've read your post two minutes ago and I already can't remember it anymore. Weren't you saying something awfully common and uninspiring? That must be the reason then.