Despisers of the body

[Nick]

So, I'm only asking you to consider the attachment of food. You could all exist quite well (and more healthily) on a very low calorie Spartan diet. So why don't you?

I eat so I can debunk ignorant fools like yourself.

[Ryan Rudolph]

To Unwise,

If a little wine helps your digestion, fine.

But if one eats healthy, nothing is needed to aid digestion. Unwise, you are finding excuses to consume things you don’t need to consume. In my view, minimalism is of the highest intelligence, it is efficient, it makes the most sense. An excessive lifestyle seems stupid to me, it seems womanly.

It is better to have a house that has a nice roof, etc.

I agree, but a big luxurious house is not necessary, and only adds to ones plight.

I despise all religions, dogmas and disciplines that insist that certain aspects of life are to be completely avoided - such as marriage or sex.

I am open to the possibility of man and woman living together if both are intelligent, but I have only met a couple of women I could tolerate for more than 20 mins, so it isn’t a big issue for me. Marriage is just an escape of loneliness for the most part. I can spend weeks in solitude and it doesn’t bother me. I think that should be the goal.

Companionship is a nice idea, but it almost always ends up being a compromise to intelligence.

Look at the life of Nisargadatta Maharaj. He smoked cigerettes, told off-colored jokes and was married. Just like me. But he was in fact enlightened. See beyond your cult.

The point you are trying to make is this : okay guys, I can still behave in stupid ways by lets say smoking cigarettes, but still be enlighened. However, this seems like a contradiction to me. Everything the enlighened person does is of the highest intelligence, so if he still exhibits stupidity in his behavior or thinking, then he still has more work to do. This is only logical in my opinion, why be content with imperfections in ones behavior that can be changed?

And in regards to marriage, it is generally frowned upon by many in the forum because most married couples fall into the traps of animal consciousness. When you sleep in the same bed with someone, and grow accustomed to their comforts, sexual pleasures, and so on, then attachment grows and the plane of consciousness that is operating becomes downgraded.

the goal is to not be afraid of losing anything in this life, and that is why sensuality is the enemy.

I tend to believe that just because one has had a few mystical experiences, and moments of emptiness, that doesnt mean that they are indefintely free from the traps of animal consciousness. That is why enlighenment is lived day by day, and there needs to be caution towards the sensual experiences that activate the lower parts of the brain.

you just can't conclude that you're indefinitely enlighened, and then behave like a teenager, I'm afraid it doesnt work that way.

Unwise, you also fail to realize that enlighened people have visions for the world that further influence their decisions. As an individual, I have a responsbility for the world to behave in a way which causes the least amount of burden to those around me.

If I smoke cigarettes, I am causing extra burden to people labouring away on a product that isnt necesssary. The goal is to reduce the burden on mankind, and it starts with ones own personal habits.

The wisdom of minimalist philosophy is rooted in this utopian vision for the world.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Companionship is a nice idea, but it almost always ends up being a compromise to intelligence.

(for all of this I include "friendship" under "companionship" - not just "romantic involvement" although the same should be said for any type of companion)

Companionship should spur one to greatness, or at least betterment. One can only see one's self from so many angles, but seeing one's self as honestly shown through the honest eyes and honest words of another, especially if one values the continued companionship of the other, can be both a motivator as well as a more complete view of reallity. The great disappointment is in the lack of honesty, lack of perception, and lack of consistency available from imperfect beings.

Also disappointing is the lack of strength of most people to give appropriate reciprocity in the face of valuing the companionship, thus the very thing that is the motivator for improvement becomes the barrier to understanding the need or evaluating the practicality of the perception of need. Overcoming this paradox without falling into the trap of domination/submission, or even engendering the simplistic desire to make another over in one's own image without regard for the very qualities in the other that makes the other a useful companion, is only possible for those who have permanently distanced themselves from the animal realm by making non-attachment part of their being. Such people are rare beings indeed.

The alternative to companionship is one's own limited view, which would be a compromise to anything that one is unable to grasp in a solitary effort (thus also limiting to one's intelligence), the strength of only one vs the strength of companions, and the death of motivation that occurs as one leaves the realms of desire.

Constant companionship would be quite another matter, as one needs a certain amount of space and distance both for maneuverability into betterment (rather than dependence) and to maintain the very distance that gives a companion a different viewpoint, which was one of the main values of a companion in the first place.

A good visual: if a companion attaches to an individual like a tumor, the viewpoint is the same as the individual, and also like a tumor, the companion sucks the life out of the individual.

Whereas companionship can be an asset, it is the attachment that makes the companionship draining. Non-attachment removes the danger and allows the benefits to manifest.
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[Cory Duchesne]

People who indulge in alcohol, jewlery, smoking, etc, perhaps they do so because they hate the feeling of their body when they are not sensually absorbed in some seperate thing.

They despise the feeling of their body when it is not stimulated by something extraneous, and so they live to escape into thrilling sensations.

They are despisers of their body.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

People who indulge in alcohol, jewlery, smoking, etc, perhaps they do so because they hate the feeling of their body when they are not sensually absorbed in some seperate thing.

They despise the feeling of their body when it is not stimulated by something extraneous, and so they live to escape into thrilling sensations.

They are despisers of their body.

So does that make the converse true? That those who do not smoke, adorn themselves, or absorb themselves in the extraneous, lovers of the body?

Absorbing one's self in the Infinite is also extraneous to the body... although also inclusive. But smoking, adorning, and absorbing could also be looked at as inclusive, as these are not separate.

[Cory Duchesne]

People who indulge in alcohol, jewlery, smoking, etc, perhaps they do so because they hate the feeling of their body when they are not sensually absorbed in some seperate thing.

They despise the feeling of their body when it is not stimulated by something extraneous, and so they live to escape into thrilling sensations.

They are despisers of their body.

So does that make the converse true? That those who do not smoke, adorn themselves, or absorb themselves in the extraneous, lovers of the body?

To love the truth is to love the mind, and to love the mind is to love the body.

Those, like unwise, who indulge, hate truth. And because they hate truth, they hate the mind, and hating the mind, they hate the body. Unwise may claim he loves his body, but he only loves the abuse he puts on it. He hates it as a whole, and loves only an increasingly narrow, specialized pursuit.

Absorbing one's self in the Infinite is also extraneous to the body... although also inclusive. But smoking, adorning, and absorbing could also be looked at as inclusive, as these are not separate.

The whole point is to end the division between subject and object, self and other, self and infinite, pain and pleasure. There's no way that can happen when you know only the titillation of delusion.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

To love the truth is to love the mind, and to love the mind is to love the body.

Where did you get the idea that the body had anything to do with the truth? Desires for food, cigarettes, sex, or any other physical pleasure stems from having a body. Food numbs the mind, as does lack of food, and starvation distorts perception and deprives one of sleep, which also distorts perception. The mind is subject to the whims of hormones and chemical imbalances - all leading to falsehood. One only has a chance of understanding the truth with the mind, but that chance is slim - and any bodily connection makes a distortion of truth. Either loving or hating the body is an attachment to something that is incompatable with truth.

[Cory Duchesne]

Where did you get the idea that the body had anything to do with the truth?

I got the idea as a result of taking care of my body and thus having the quality of mind to see that the mind and body are one.

One only has a chance of understanding the truth with the mind

The care you give to your body dictates the quality of your mind. To abuse the body is to abuse the mind, and vice versa.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Where did you get the idea that the body had anything to do with the truth?

I got the idea as a result of taking care of my body and thus having the quality of mind to see that the mind and body are one.

One only has a chance of understanding the truth with the mind

The care you give to your body dictates the quality of your mind. To abuse the body is to abuse the mind, and vice versa.

I'll agree with all that, but my contention is with "loving" the body when the body is the primary distorter of the truth. The mind is the perceiver of the truth and can only perceive it as well as the body gets out of the way. Finding a way to shut the body up does not seem like a loving act to me.

[unwise]

The mind is subject to the whims of hormones and chemical imbalances - all leading to falsehood. One only has a chance of understanding the truth with the mind, but that chance is slim - and any bodily connection makes a distortion of truth. Either loving or hating the body is an attachment to something that is incompatible with truth.

Yes, regardless what you do, your body will be in constant fluctuation. If you eat to fullness, you become dull. If you abstain all sensual foods and limit yourself, you will be hungry and distracted. Similar to sex. If you indulge, you become tired. If you abstain, you put tension on your nerves. This goes on constantly in a million ways - all of it makes the mind fluctuate.

Whatever you do, you are a part of god. Or, you could say that god is in you, or you are a ray of god. However you would like to poetically state it. What can you do to make this not true? If you get drunk, will god withdraw from you? Will that ray of god in you leave? No. It is not effected. When I became enlightened I was astonished to find out that I was not the mind or the body, the name or the form, the personality or the history. I was none of that. And, I saw that I had ALWAYS been enlightened, had never been born, and had never done a single thing.

This is why you are whistling in the wind. God sports for entertainment. It is all game to him.

[Cory Duchesne]

I'll agree with all that, but my contention is with "loving" the body when the body is the primary distorter of the truth.

Despising or neglecting the body isnt going to make things any clearer though. That sort of attitude is just like endeavoring to raise a child with the intention of helping the child become courageous and intelligent, yet hating or neglecting the child's weakness, rather than being closely attentive and caring about not only the good qualities of the child, but caring about and being very attentive to the so called the bad, undesirable qualities.

Many parents over agrandize the positive qualities of their children and even idolize their children, while crudely turning a blind eye to the child's weaknesses, or even feeling hatred for the child's weaknesses. The images they have of their children, is much like the image they have of themselves - overblown and crooked. It's child abuse.

The mind is the perceiver of the truth and can only perceive it as well as the body gets out of the way. Finding a way to shut the body up does not seem like a loving act to me.

Often, people who pride themselves for loving their minds are really just loving an abstraction, a projection, it's an egotistical escape.

Being clearminded is the result of being closely attentive to one's body, ensuring that the body is properly fed, well excercised, physically sensitive, sharp, working on a subtle level - for it is the working of the bodies mechanics that dictates the quality of mind.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Unwise wrote:

Yes, regardless what you do, your body will be in constant fluctuation. If you eat to fullness, you become dull. If you abstain all sensual foods and limit yourself, you will be hungry and distracted. Similar to sex. If you indulge, you become tired. If you abstain, you put tension on your nerves. This goes on constantly in a million ways - all of it makes the mind fluctuate.

That is why you cultivate the correct habits, correct habits limit the degree of fluctuation and keep the body in what I’d like to call a pleasant equilibrium, and the state of pleasant equilibrium is much more desirable than the state of constant fluctuation.

so if you enjoy being a samsara bum, that's your business, but coming to genius and trying to spread you're teenage ideology is laughable. Perhaps you can find some followers in the woods outside of a high school dance.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Despising or neglecting the body isnt going to make things any clearer though.

Agreed. That is why I wrote:

Either loving or hating the body is an attachment to something that is incompatible with truth.

(bold added)

Perhaps one does have to have a false construct of love for the body in order to be motivated to do all the maintenance that a body requires - is that what you meant?

[Shahrazad]

Why do some people have such a hard time understanding that the body and mind need to be cared for?

Sorry guys, I was just thinking out loud. Thinking of my mother.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Unwise might very well be wearing masks: a married guy with kids and a job, outside his motorcycle hobby escaping life by pretending to be whatever he wants. So easy and fun on the Net!

But assuming his experiences all reflect his reality he could be stuck in the so-called 'Third Stage'. Not talking about the famous midlife crisis episode but a stage on the path toward enlightenment where it's very easy to get swamped. It probably has not much to do with Unwise but nevertheless the problem is common enough to mention.

Here's a description from Solway's site:

3. The stage of Insight

Here one attains direct insight into Reality (God, Shunyata, or the Infinite), and there is fantastic joy. Before this, one confuses Reality with the mental image, or concept of it. With the power of this realization all remaining intellectually formed delusions are abandoned. However, habitual delusions remain, as well as the more subtle instinctive delusions.

One now has even more control over one's mind, and one's future "rebirths". One becomes relatively free from the fears of starvation, suffering, and physical pain.

One who has bodhicitta is called a bodhisattva. During the first two stages (above) a person is known as an ordinary bodhisattva, but with the attainment of this third stage he becomes known as an Arya-bodhisattva, or a "noble one". This stage is the first of the ten bodhisattvabhumis, or foundations for Final Enlightenment.

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/poison.html#st

What is often not realized it's still a long way to go from here but rarely one is driven to move further. Has to do I suspect with the unusual minds that come this far or the unusual experiences that have 'thrown' someone in this stage. Often the limitations set by the very causes that made it all possible in the first place will prevent any further advancement. Even awareness of the nature of the road ahead can become totally blocked.

[Cory Duchesne]

Perhaps one does have to have a false construct of love for the body in order to be motivated to do all the maintenance that a body requires - is that what you meant?

Well, I suppose I'm using the word love, in the sense that loving something is caring for something, being closely attentive to it, not neglecting it, understanding it, etc.

Loving the truth demmands a great deal of attention and care for the things that most people tend to be bored with or disturbed by, and thus they tend to abuse the source of their boredom and disturbance, in order to escape from the pain.

Again, your typical parent is bored with or disturbed by the very aspects of their children that they should be interested in & closely attentive to. And so they resolve their boredom by getting the kid excited about santa clause, or a trip to disney world.

[unwise]

Sometimes I wonder how many years it will take for the brightest person here to finally realize that enlightenment never comes to a person. It NEVER comes to the one who thinks:

"I will do this."

"I think this."

"This is the sort of person I am."

"I am seeing things now without delusion."

"I am dropping attachments and beginning to understand."

If I understand enlightenment, and I do, it will most likely come to no one here. This is because you are all satisfied. Therefore, the true fire is out and there is not even smoke.

[David Quinn]

"I will not get up again from under the Bodhi Tree until I become enlightened" - Buddha.

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[David Quinn]

"'I must attain perfection in this life, yea, in three days I must find God, nay, with a single utterance of his name I will draw him to me'. With such a violent love the Lord is attracted soon. The lukewarm lovers take ages to go to Him, if at all." - Ramakrishna

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[Trevor Salyzyn]

Clearly, none of those folk were enlightened. Unwise knows more about enlightenment than any of them did.

[David Quinn]

"If the meaning is not brilliantly clear to you, hasten to ask your questions.
Do not allow hours to pass you in vain. If you people put your trust in this
teaching and act accordingly, without being delivered, I shall gladly take your
places in hell for the whole of my existence. If I have deceived you, may I be
reborn in a place where lions, tigers and wolves will devour my flesh! But, if
you do not put faith in this teaching, and do not practice it diligently, that will
be because you do not understand it. Once you have lost a human body, you
will not obtain another for millions of aeons. Strive on! Strive on! It is
absolutely vital that you come to understand."

- Huang Po

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[David Quinn]

"Who can climb up to heaven and wander in the mists, roam the infinite, and forget life forever and forever?" - Chuang Tzu

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[David Quinn]

"All of you who wish to plumb this deep source must make the investigation in secret with your entire body. My own toil has extended over these thirty years. Do not take this to be an easy task! Even if you should happen to break up the family and scatter the household, do not consider this enough. You must vow to pass through seven, or eight, or even nine thickets of brambles. And when you have passed through the thickets of brambles, still do not consider this to be enough. Vow to investigate the secret teachings of the Five Ranks to the end. "

- Hakuin

[David Quinn]

"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." - Jesus

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[David Quinn]

"It is eternally true that if one knocks, the door will be opened. But suppose that the difficulty for us human beings is simply that we are afraid to go - and knock."

- Kierkegaard