Hating the Self

[Leah]

I can't even begin to address this due to how badly you have misunderstood me and everything I've said. I'm honestly sorry I have nothing to offer you in return.

Nick,

Your treasures are pond slime, rub them on your face, dwell in your hole, you are the big brave king of your hole with pond slime on your face.

xoxox
Leah

[Leah]

If you drop the mind you can see the mind.

Such statements often refer to meditative techniques that can create the appearance of observing a 'flow of thoughts' or 'witnessing the actor'. While it can be helpful on the path of self-inquiry it's often forgotten that this is just another mirage. It's an artificial position created like using fire to fight fire. But no mind is really dropped nor is any mind really seen. It can help to increase attention but the price that is paid is having created a false position which is just another possible and quite comfortable nest for egotism to arise.

What is at the end of the path of self-inquiry?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

What is at the end of the path of self-inquiry?

Nevertheless, along the way stages could be discerned.

"For every one that partakes of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe; but solid food belongs to full-grown men, who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil." - Paul of Tarsus

[Faust]

There's nothing wrong with pride and fearlessness, and your ego problem, the way to solve the 'kill or be killed' problem is to recognize other people's egos and to develop your superego. yes honesty is important, but you should always remember the animal side of man, and so despise yourself a little bit, but not to the point of destroying yourself. Then, forget about all this enlightenment stuff I'll just reduce it to the most basic terms of it right here (in no particular order).

1. the noble soul has reverence for itself (at all times)
2. you have no one to prove yourself to, except maybe yourself and in private.
3. it's always important to hide your suffering, and not let it show to other strangers who will compound it
4. always be fearless in the social world, whether walking into a room, down a lecture hall, etc.. don't constantly bring your head up and down up and down, look straight and lose your social anxiety.
5. honesty is important
6. never be jealous, envious...
7. confidence is contagious.

I began understanding and reflecting all of those things by the time I was 16. Still it's good to know you recognize those qualities and characteristics to be indicative of someone with a potentially honest and noble character.

I think you might have also misunderstood the insight I was offering into my spiritual trials and tribulations. What I'm saying is that I'm upset there is still enough ego in me to feed my emotions, pride in particular. I singled out pride because for me it's the hardest to recognize and logically deduce compared to other emotions that might arise. What bothers me most about it is when I look back on my thoughts or actions that occur within this prideful(diluted) state of mind, and see how my behavior reflected ignorance rather than wisdom. Even if I do recognize it and not allow it to affect my thoughts or actions I still hate the feeling. It's a painful reminder of my ego's presence. Still the hate I have towards these emotions does have its benefits, because it serves as added motivation to keep on killing my self(ego). It's always easier to defeat an opponent that you hate.

Why is pride necessarily delusional? Also, yes ego is many times very delusional. But hating something isin't going to make it easier to get rid of! If you hate it that means you also love it, so it'll just make it harder! Ego and pride are two different things I would say, so it's best to have more pride than ego. Even if you get 'wisdom' you'll still be egotistical about having it, so it's a matter of keeping your ego in control.

[Faust]

It seems Leah and Faust have read one too many New Age self-help books.

What are you talking about? What I said had nothing to do with New Age, infact most 'new age' people I know lack most of these qualities. New Age is making men feminine, and my qualities are anything but. New Age preaches you to be 'open' about yourself and to 'let your shortcomings come out' and whatnot, which is not a good lesson at all. I've never read a 'new age' book so my realizations about life are clearly genuine. It is a sign of savagery not civilization, to be able to hide your feelings and your suffering. I don't know anyone who wouldn't want all these qualities, they are essentially Superman qualities, the ones that Nietzsche had. infact the first rule is a direct quote from him.

[Leah]

Nevertheless, along the way stages could be discerned.

Along the way to where?
What is the stage after the last stage you have a name for?

For every one that partakes of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe; but solid food belongs to full-grown men, who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil.

A cockroach can distinguish good and evil.

Who here is finished with good and evil?

[Nick]

Why is pride necessarily delusional?

Because it arises out of the belief in a false self, namely the ego. The Truth of the matter is, all things are only done through me, not by me. Once you meditate on this realization long enough you will see it is totally irrational to feel pride about anything.

Also, yes ego is many times very delusional. But hating something isin't going to make it easier to get rid of! If you hate it that means you also love it, so it'll just make it harder!

I agree that I hate the ego because I am unfortunately still attached to it, if thats what you mean by love. Still if I wasn't discontent with this attachment then I might never have strived to get rid of it in the first place. When you make the conscious decision to value wisdom and Truth, these things become barricades that need to to destroyed in order to live in the light of God at all times. So for the time being I hate them, I can not doing anything but hate them until I have overcome them.

Ego and pride are two different things I would say, so it's best to have more pride than ego. Even if you get 'wisdom' you'll still be egotistical about having it, so it's a matter of keeping your ego in control.

You can't control the ego, the ego controls you. It just depends on how big it is or if there is any ego at all. I'm seeking to eradicate it completely.

[Faust]

Because it arises out of the belief in a false self, namely the ego. The Truth of the matter is, all things are only done through me, not by me. Once you meditate on this realization long enough you will see it is totally irrational to feel pride about anything.

I agree that I hate the ego because I am unfortunately still attached to it, if thats what you mean by love. Still if I wasn't discontent with this attachment then I might never have strived to get rid of it in the first place. When you make the conscious decision to value wisdom and Truth, these things become barricades that need to to destroyed in order to live in the light of God at all times. So for the time being I hate them, I can not doing anything but hate them until I have overcome them

You can't control the ego, the ego controls you. It just depends on how big it is or if there is any ego at all. I'm seeking to eradicate it completely.

All things aren't done through you, there ARE some things that you solely did, based on your INITIATIVE and DETERMINATION. yes other people help you but without the initiative it wouldn't be there. I don't know if it's possible to eradicate the ego, and that's the truth if you value it, remember even animals have egos, but it is possible to make it small.

you value truth by realizing that the ego is very vulnerable and most of the time not what it is, but pride is still different than ego. I mean one can still be proud in an aesthetic sense, but not have the vulnerability of the ego.

[BMcGilly07]

I can't even begin to address this due to how badly you have misunderstood me and everything I've said. I'm honestly sorry I have nothing to offer you in return.

Nick,

Your treasures are pond slime, rub them on your face, dwell in your hole, you are the big brave king of your hole with pond slime on your face.

xoxox
Leah

Leah, you are a jaded woman who looks to deal emotional hurt, giving hugs and kisses while you degrade. A typical feminine tactic, don't you have something better to do with your time?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Leah, you are a jaded woman who looks to deal emotional hurt, giving hugs and kisses while you degrade.

Bryan, I interpreted the kisses as deliberate cynicism, considering all the context. Perhaps a feeble attempt to show "infinite capacity for giving pain"?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Nevertheless, along the way stages could be discerned.

Along the way to where?

A way, road or path is by definition a direction; it can be traversed in two ways. Closer to the goal or further away from it. The goal is the direction itself: truth.

What is the stage after the last stage you have a name for?

You introduced a 'last stage' so I'll leave it to you to name it or any stage beyond it.

A cockroach can distinguish good and evil.

Who here is finished with good and evil?

This is where your conception is wrong: there are only a few humans who have even begun distinguishing good and evil when it comes to truth. And most of those never go beyond the 'milk' - sometimes expressed as the 'anything goes' phase.

[Nick]

All things aren't done through you, there ARE some things that you solely did, based on your INITIATIVE and DETERMINATION. yes other people help you but without the initiative it wouldn't be there.

Do you realize we are only a result of infinite causes that lead up to each and every moment? If you do then you might also know that we have no freewill and we only do what we are meant to do. Everything has been laid out for us, we simply go along for the ride. For me to take pride in anything I do is like a rock taking pride in falling down a hill. It was caused to fall down the hill just like I am caused to do whatever I do. It is a logical impossibility for me to solely do anything, meaning any sense of pride is irrational and delusional.

I don't know if it's possible to eradicate the ego

There's only one way to find out.

you value truth by realizing that the ego is very vulnerable and most of the time not what it is, but pride is still different than ego. I mean one can still be proud in an aesthetic sense, but not have the vulnerability of the ego.

I'm not saying the ego and pride are the same thing, but without the ego there can be no pride. If you are still attached to the ego you will be vulnerable to all sorts of delusional feelings and behavior.

[Nick]

Leah, you are a jaded woman who looks to deal emotional hurt, giving hugs and kisses while you degrade. A typical feminine tactic, don't you have something better to do with your time?

Her words are vain. She appears to have no grounding in reality what-so-ever, making it fairly impossible to take anything she has to say even a little bit seriously. This is the reason I can't even begin to address anything she's said to me, she's so "out there" not even the most potent wisdom in world could bring her back down to Earth.

[Leah]

Leah, you are a jaded woman who looks to deal emotional hurt, giving hugs and kisses while you degrade. A typical feminine tactic, don't you have something better to do with your time?

Because I am a woman, you catagorise my behaviour according to what you think you already know about women. If I was a man, you would see my behaviour in a different light. It is extremely foolish to do this, and when you do, your corrupted head is always naked and on display to those with a greater perspective than yourself.

You read what I write and think,"Pfft, typical of a woman."

Bryan reading Leah's posts is Bryan watching for reasons to believe what he wants to believe stronger than he does already, and as such, feel more secure etc.

So stupid.

I wasn't degrading Nick, I was describing what I could see him doing. But when you read what I write, you can't stop thinking about the fact that I am a woman, because you are totally insane when it comes to women, your mind can't sit still around a woman, you are obsessed... you listen nervously and when you hear what you are waiting for you jump up and point your finger and say, "Ha! Just like I read somewhere!"

So, so stupid.

Kiss hug.

[Tim]

The brunette is right about Bryan targeting exactly the females.

Kiss hug.

Little lady, ya gotta admit there aint no man that would type that. No straight man, anyways.

[Leah]

(Leah's) words are vain. She appears to have no grounding in reality what-so-ever, making it fairly impossible to take anything she has to say even a little bit seriously. This is the reason I can't even begin to address anything she's said to me, she's so "out there" not even the most potent wisdom in world could bring her back down to Earth.

You are just a coward... usually you would overcome this to some extent when talking to a man, because it would annoy your precious self-perceptions to submit to this cowardice in public.

But because you don't respect women at all, you don't rebound your securities against them, so when talking to a woman, it doesn't matter to you so much... so you just go with the cowardice.

[Leah]

I interpreted the kisses as deliberate cynicism, considering all the context. Perhaps a feeble attempt to show "infinite capacity for giving pain"?

Good heavens, how hilarious... I throw 'xoxox' on the end of a post and a bunch of fellas get their panties in a bunch and start talking about my attempts to show off my "infinite capacity for giving pain" etc... you really are all quite mad.

Let me explain this little absurdity away... Nick says his stuff, and I give my impression back, knowing full well it would be ignored and written off as mere womandom, and then, when it was, I gave Nick a brief business-end summary of what I had said, because it is much easier to remember such a thing than to retain a diatribe. This is so that one day, when Nick wakes up a bit, he may remember being told this, and will think, 'Ah, that is what that woman meant, now I can use what she said to better understand myself instead of fighting it in my blind existential panic.'

I ended with 'xoxox' because what I was attempting to explain to Nick was not a gentle idea, but yet, came from love.

Ok, crazy gentlemen?

[Faust]

All things aren't done through you, there ARE some things that you solely did, based on your INITIATIVE and DETERMINATION. yes other people help you but without the initiative it wouldn't be there.

Do you realize we are only a result of infinite causes that lead up to each and every moment? If you do then you might also know that we have no freewill and we only do what we are meant to do. Everything has been laid out for us, we simply go along for the ride. For me to take pride in anything I do is like a rock taking pride in falling down a hill. It was caused to fall down the hill just like I am caused to do whatever I do. It is a logical impossibility for me to solely do anything, meaning any sense of pride is irrational and delusional.

I don't know if it's possible to eradicate the ego

There's only one way to find out.

you value truth by realizing that the ego is very vulnerable and most of the time not what it is, but pride is still different than ego. I mean one can still be proud in an aesthetic sense, but not have the vulnerability of the ego.

I'm not saying the ego and pride are the same thing, but without the ego there can be no pride. If you are still attached to the ego you will be vulnerable to all sorts of delusional feelings and behavior.

That's the freewill/determinism problem. But you can't say that you have NO freewill, I don't know where you got that concept. If we had no freewill that means we're not responsible for our actions and for our lives. You've just decided that you have no freewill and so it becomes reality.

I've already been through the path, and there's no way to destroy it, yes you can eradicate most of it and that's good enough. I have pride, but i'm not 'attached' to my ego to make me vulnerable to things. I haven't felt vulnerable in a long time, and that's cause I've greatly lowered the ego.

[Tim]

Leah,

1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV (the Holy Bible) states that woman should not speak in church, and even if they have questions should wait and ask their husbands at home . What that means, little lady, is that you need to keep your henid filled pie-hole shut. Aint no man need to hear your advice.

edit for clarity

[Faust]

Leah,

1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV (the Holy Bible) states that woman should not speak in church, but rather should ask their husbands at home . What that means, little lady, is that you need to keep your henid filled pie-hole shut. Aint no man need to hear your advice.

that's cause that man is too preoccupied with his ego, and hence scared of women.

[Tim]

that's cause that man is too preoccupied with his ego, and hence scared of women.

What man? Saint Paul who wrote that in Corinthians?

[Nick]

That's the freewill/determinism problem. But you can't say that you have NO freewill, I don't know where you got that concept. If we had no freewill that means we're not responsible for our actions and for our lives. You've just decided that you have no freewill and so it becomes reality.

Ultimately we don't have freewill, everything we do is predetermined through the infinite chain of cause and effect. However this does not mean we shouldn't take responsibility for our actions. Even though everything is predetermined, it is also unknowable. This reminds me of the parable about a thief and Diogenes.

"It's my fate to steal," pleaded the man who had been caught red-handed by Diogenes.

"Then it is also your fate to be beaten," said Diogenes, hitting him across the head with his staff.

I've already been through the path, and there's no way to destroy it, yes you can eradicate most of it and that's good enough. I have pride, but i'm not 'attached' to my ego to make me vulnerable to things. I haven't felt vulnerable in a long time, and that's cause I've greatly lowered the ego.

If you feel pride then you are neccessarily still attached to the ego to some extent. The ego can't exist without you being attached to it. Still, even though you feel pride it doesn't mean you let it corrupt you to the point of thinking or acting ignorantly. But lets not pretend it is a rational feeling, since all feelings are neccessarily irrational, due to their dependency on your attachment to the false self(ego). Delusion can only bring about more delusion, not Truth.

[Nick]

You are just a coward... usually you would overcome this to some extent when talking to a man, because it would annoy your precious self-perceptions to submit to this cowardice in public.

But because you don't respect women at all, you don't rebound your securities against them, so when talking to a woman, it doesn't matter to you so much... so you just go with the cowardice.

Your genitals have nothing to do with the way I have dealt with you. Get over yourself.

[Leah]

A way, road or path is by definition a direction; it can be traversed in two ways. Closer to the goal or further away from it. The goal is the direction itself: truth.

Sure, this is a nice description.

there are only a few humans who have even begun distinguishing good and evil when it comes to truth.

'Good' and 'evil' are rather overly poetic terms for any reference to truth to yield much poison though, don't you think? These terms are way too loaded in the sentient conciousness to bear much of a sword edge when pointing to enlightenment, and have been forever.

And most of those never go beyond the 'milk' - sometimes expressed as the 'anything goes' phase.

Yes, I understand this.

Perhaps you have just begun distinguishing 'good' and 'evil' when it comes to truth. If this is the case, then, to put it in your language, the terms 'good' and 'evil' are so difficult for sentience to not attach massive amounts of dirt to, that to use them to try to point sentience to truth is an 'evil' action. Haha.

Also, try examining the state of whoever you are pointing for the benefit of, before you point... to help you come upon the best manner of pointing for that time and place. Otherwise, for whom are you really 'pointing', and for what hidden purpose?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Good heavens, how hilarious... I throw 'xoxox' on the end of a post and a bunch of fellas get their panties in a bunch and start talking about my attempts to show off my "infinite capacity for giving pain" etc... you really are all quite mad.

It was actually meant as a reference to the board introduction post where 'genius' is quoted to be, amongst other things, the "infinite capacity for giving pain".

In other words, it's perfectly alright on this forum to express less 'gentle' ideas. No need to wrap it.