Is violence masculine?

[Katy]

There is a lot of focus on the negative aspects of femininity here, and understandably so. However, I question the fact that there are no negative masculine qualities. One of the quickest to come to mind is physical violence.

In the US, homicide rates are:

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

This is a pretty big difference!

It seems to be a major downside to masculinity.

[Nick]

Those statistics are based on people who are bioligical males, not on how masculine or feminine they are. Those males are probably in fact far more feminine than you might think.

I think if one has only a tiny amount of masculinity in him, he his more prone to perform acts of violence and injustice than if he were to remain 100% feminine. I aslo think that the most masculine of males are the least destructive people on this planet.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

If one is to say that femininity is that which is most easily observed in biological females, and one is to say that masculinity is more easily observed in males, then why would it be that a behavior that is most often observed in biological males and least often observed in biological females still be considered "feminine?"

I aslo think that the most masculine of males are the least destructive people on this planet.

I'd call those the most advanced of humans, and say they behave above gender.

[reedsch]

So then why do we call it "Mother Nature"?

Yes, men create most of the mayhem on the planet. They also create most of the art, technology, science, religion, economy, and philosophy. For their numbers, women contribute astoundingly little to the cause of material advancement of civilization; you'd have to think long and hard to name something invented by a woman.

Keep in mind also that the overwhelming preponderance of men's violence is directed at each other.

I'll put in my 2 cents worth to defend the difference between personal violence (directed at people) and violence directed at things. I positively hate hurting people. But I love blowing shit up.

Kill it or fuck it; that's how testosterone sees the world.

[BMcGilly07]

I think killing is an unconscious, feminine act. It is the ultimate act of the ego asserting it's ignorance by seeking to undermine another's authority by stamping out another's life. It is interesting that so many killers are struck dumb by the finality of their deed. As if, for the first time after the fact, they are conscious.

[Nick]

If one is to say that femininity is that which is most easily observed in biological females, and one is to say that masculinity is more easily observed in males, then why would it be that a behavior that is most often observed in biological males and least often observed in biological females still be considered "feminine?"

Because biological females are so feminine to the extent that you can't really observe a difference in their characters, or lack-there-of. While males have much more variance between individuals in how masculine they actually are. It makes much more logical sense to equate being female to femininity, than it does to equate being male to masculinity.

[BMcGilly07]

In Nature, males exhibit a greater array of variance. It's what makes us attractive. Men are hard-wired such that any woman will do in a pinch, whereas women are much more choosy. That's what life's like when you're born with a flesh hypodermic between your legs. You get your first fix from Mom, doped up until the age of reason. Before any real damage can be done to the system, your hormones turn on and you move from Mom to your girlfriend.

[David Quinn]

Studies have shown that women are just as violent as men. Where they differ is their acts of violence are less focused, which is no surprise given that women are more feminine.

Whereas a man might snap and go for someone's throat, a woman throws vases, slaps faces, scolds children, backstabs her female friends, gets a new hair-style, etc. The violent intent is just as strong as in men, but her scattered mind tends to diffuse it.

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[Diebert van Rhijn]

If masculinity, as some responses above seem to argue, is really less or equally a cause of violence compared to femininity, then it must be the males who are the most wretched and pitiful specimen of the both sexes!

Because it then boils down to: trouble = masculinity + (blinded by) femininity.

Since males are defined as having more (potential) masculinity because of their biology, males would cause automatically the most trouble in terms of violence, errors, brutality, cruelty and generally acting more fucked up.

What a high price for humanity to pay for this 'masculinity'! Imagine a completely peaceful world without this disturbing conflict, slowly fading away into the long evening of forgetfulness. Metoopia.

[Katy]

Whereas a man might snap and go for someone's throat, a woman throws vases, slaps faces, scolds children, backstabs her female friends, gets a new hair-style, etc. The violent intent is just as strong as in men, but her scattered mind tends to diffuse it.

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Well, I'm not sure we can equate scolding children or backstabbing friends with killing, or even punching a person, and I'm certain we can't compare getting a new hair-style (especially given the frequency, and "fun" associated with that). And even so, I'd rather be slapped across the face than shot.

Studies show that men are quick to anger, and quick to get over it while women will take a longer time to get angry but then stay that way for a much longer period of time. Men are more likely to become physically violent apparently because of this.

At any rate - even if we equate slapping someone with killing them, it remains a matter of degree. If we argue that women are more unconscious than men and thus equate unconsciousness with Women, then in order to be consistent, we have to say acknowledge that the degree to which men are violent is an important factor here.



Also, men tend to enjoy watching violence more than women do. How many female football or rugby fans are there? Certainly less than there are male fans. And most of the audience at blow'm up movies is likely to be male.

Even participation, we have enough women interested in playing basketball to create the WNBA even though they're not nearly as good or interesting as the NBA. Where are the women interested in playing contact sports? The WNFL? There simply isn't enough interest to form enough teams to make it worth it.

Several of the football players I've been friends with have told me that playing football is a safe way to hit people; this makes sense as it is the same reason I'm involved in martial arts - but even there women make up a very small minority (the percentage is in the single digits) of the group. Not to mention that the reasons for fighting are different. If you ask the men, they'll say "I get to hit people" while the women are more likely to say "to prove women can."

OK, we can't equate sports to murder, but we can use these differences to suggest the propensity is stronger in men.

[Dan Rowden]

Katy,

How do you define "violence"?

[Katy]

How do you define "violence"?

I define violence as physically harming another person.

[sue hindmarsh]

The violence of two men punching the living daylights out of each other in a boxing ring is nothing compared to the violence a mother inflicts upon her child whilst scolding it in the checkout lane of the supermarket. Each boxer is focused on overpowering their opponent in order to win the round. This is a direct relationship of equals focused on one goal.

The mother, on the other hand, has no direct relationship with the subject of her irritation, for once her emotions are stirred into action, the entire universe is considered at fault, and the child becomes an inanimate object onto which the mother inflicts all her irritation, anger and frustration. There is no focused goal, no understood consequences – there is only blind emotion lashing out in all directions.

The masculine person is able to have a direct focus for their emotions – as their emotion has depth and definition. The feminine has neither, causing the emotions always to be irrational.

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Sue

[Katy]

Scolding a child is certainly not violence, unless you hit the child in the process. And I was really using sports more to show the enjoyment of violence not the extent of it. The point is more in the statistics in the first post. Someone who is out to murder someone isn't looking for a fair fight, or "a direct relationship of equals focused on one goal."

The masculine person is able to have a direct focus for their emotions – as their emotion has depth and definition. The feminine has neither, causing the emotions always to be irrational.

But, men are more likely to be physically violent than women are. If this is a result of the emotion having more depth and definition for men, than this is a serious flaw.

And are you arguing that physical violence is rational? That murdering someone is a rational reaction in most (or even really many) cases?

[Carl G]

Scolding a child is certainly not violence, unless you hit the child in the process.

Such a statement is not certain. It is a matter of definition. I have seen some very violent scolding, just in the aisle of my local supermarket. More abusive than a slap. Probably more hurtful. And with just a few words and an icy stare. This is attack, plain and simple. How is an assault like this not violence?

[Katy]

Scolding a child is certainly not violence, unless you hit the child in the process.

Such a statement is not certain. It is a matter of definition. I have seen some very violent scolding, just in the aisle of my local supermarket. More abusive than a slap. Probably more hurtful. And with just a few words and an icy stare. This is attack, plain and simple. How is an assault like this not violence?

Simple - I'm talking about physical violence.

Plus, even if you add in psychological abuse, men and women are equally often guilty, but men are more often guilty in physical abuse, and sexual abuse, so it doesn't really even out.

[Kevin Solway]

Men are more often guilty of violence against untruth, so that makes up for their greater degree of physical violence. :-)

[DHodges]

In the US, homicide rates are:

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

That's interesting... what do you make of this?
Homicide and Race

One might argue that blacks are more likely to be involved in homicides than whites because of relative poverty and desperation in living conditions. How might that relate to the gender issue?

[Katy]

That's interesting... what do you make of this?
Homicide and Race

One might argue that blacks are more likely to be involved in homicides than whites because of relative poverty and desperation in living conditions. How might that relate to the gender issue?

From the same page:

Black victims are greatly over represented in homicides involving drugs. Compared with the overall involvement of blacks as victims, blacks are less often the victims of sex-related homicides, workplace killings, and homicide by poison.

I don't think we can really make the same argument for men and women. And if we can, that says something else strongly negative about men.

Also, poverty and desperate living conditions are really more common to women - specifically single mothers, so that only makes the statistics more surprising.

[Nick]

David Quinn does bring up a great point about how the feminine mind difuses her destructive tendencies. Rather than focus all her anger in to one grandiose act of rage, it spreads out into every aspect of her life. Now the real question is who has the greatest potential for unleashing their anger. In my personal experiences I'd have to say women tend to fly of the handle easier. Rather than think about why she is angry, her emotions are allowed to pour out of her instantaneously and unchecked. With that said I think it is femininity from which violence is born. Also, it is the femininity in men which corrupts his masculinity, causing him to become violent. He only needs to develop his masculine side in order to cure himself.

[BMcGilly07]

My brother and I were in Best Buy, dressed in normal clothing that did not resemble the Best Buy uniform of blue shirts and khakis in the least. We were browsing, wearing jackets, jeans and sweaters when a middle-aged woman looks up from her browsing and proceeds to ask us questions on products rudely, with a sense of annoyance and anger. We immediately responded, "We don't work here." She proceeded to outwardly grow angry towards us, going on to ask in the same rude manner, "Well who the hell does work here?" As if we should apologize for not working there, and quickly change into Best Buy uniforms. A man would never think to ask another man a question without being certain of who he was speaking with. Mainly because he feels foolish asking to begin with, and would not want to feel doubly so. It was apparent from this woman's attitude that she was already angry with something else and expressed it in her every action, being blinded thereby.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

There are a lot of people out there that leave people wondering "WTF?" but women tend to go more for the mental/verbal stuff and men more for the physical. Yes, the mental stuff can be a lot more damaging and be less proscecutable, but it is just a difference. That does not mean that men do not do their share of WTF stuff too. At one point I pulled up behind another car and started pumping gas into my car. After the car ahead of me pulled away, another car pulled up behind me and the driver got out and started yelling at me that I was supposed to pull to the last pump, that I was blocking the lane, etc. He was an idiot. I didn't bother explaining to him that when I pulled in, there was another car at the pump in front of me because obviously he had too much anger to hear.

At another point, someone cut me off in traffic, then slowed down. I went around the car, and he passed me again, cutting me off again. After going awhile, with him slowing to the point of almost stopping, I finally started going around him again, and he cut in front of me so I couldn't, blocked both lanes of traffic, got out of his car, and came at my car shaking his fist and yelling.

Yes, there are females that get set off for no good reason, too - I was trying to get a large bucket of concrtete sealant from the shelf to the cart, and this woman got in my way. I tried to go around one side, she saw me and accidentally tried to get out of the way by going the same way I went, then we both moved to the same opposite side trying to get around, and she asks me which way to go around. At this point, I couldn't hold the bucket anymore (too heavy) and had to set it down, so I set it down and said "either way." She flew into a full screaming fit, flailing her arms around. A guy watching this laughed and said "isle rage."

It seems to be the nature of a disturbing number of people to just behave in manners that make most people wonder "WTF?"

[Carl G]

There is a lot of focus on the negative aspects of femininity here, and understandably so. However, I question the fact that there are no negative masculine qualities. One of the quickest to come to mind is physical violence.

In the US, homicide rates are:

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

This is a pretty big difference!

It seems to be a major downside to masculinity.

I have not been involved in physical violence since I was kid (streetfighting other kids, more or less for fun). So, no major downside to my masculine experience.

I can, however, remember my stepmother coming at my dad with a kitchen knife, and on another occasion beating my brother, whose foot was in a cast, with his own crutch, so go figure.

I do agree with some here that women's violence is more often emotional and manipulative.

So, Katy, I think your constriction of the concept of violence to only physical forms is rather pointless. I can almost see it as manipulative.

[Katy]

I have not been involved in physical violence since I was kid (streetfighting other kids, more or less for fun). So, no major downside to my masculine experience.

I can, however, remember my stepmother coming at my dad with a kitchen knife, and on another occasion beating my brother, whose foot was in a cast, with his own crutch, so go figure.

Statistically this isn't the norm, though. Sure, there's going to be personal experiences of nonviolent men and violent women. Really, lots of both. Just like there are times when we see rational women, and irrational men.

I do agree with some here that women's violence is more often emotional and manipulative.

Sure, because women are emotional and manipulative to begin with. But that's why I'm not really looking at women's violence - it fits the already established behavior patterns of being manipulative and emotional.

On the other hand, well, physical violence isn't really a rational decision. It certainly isn't more rational than emotional violence (if for not other reason, you can get prosecuted for physical violence a lot easier). So somehow there is a breakdown here...

[sue hindmarsh]

DHodges wrote:

That's interesting... what do you make of this?
Homicide and Race

One might argue that blacks are more likely to be involved in homicides than whites because of relative poverty and desperation in living conditions. How might that relate to the gender issue?

From my observation of black people living in America, and aboriginal people here in Australia, I see that many of them have the same 'victim' mentality as most women do. They see themselves as 'innocents' constantly persecuted by a sadistic, unjust overlord. They say that they are the “under-dog”, “the hard done by”, “the put upon”, “the mistreated” - and see no future for themselves other than a life spent seeking an unfocused and irrational revenge. And, like women, they mostly just end up hurting each other - and the people they are emotionally closest to (husbands, wives, children, etc).

All this comes from living only through the emotions. Their inability to utilize their reasoning capacity leaves them to live in immediacy and emotional chaos. With this as the base, all manner of violence is bound to arise.

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Sue