Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

[TryingToWakeUp]

Interesting questions.

May be seriousness is contextual. Once anything is recognized as a game by a player, his consiousness transcends the rules of the game (he remembers). How in that condition can it still be serious :) ?

Games where the main objectives include competitive survival (accepted by most as The reality) are pretty rough games and become not fun to play as we are becoming the loosing party.

Then can't we all think of a big Game, in which forgetting the rules is imbedded in the results of loosing ?

[Matt Gregory]

I think the true nature of reality is described by the concept of Game. Whatever limits exist may have been created as rules of the game by the consiousness that partitioned itself into individual entities to create the game condition. We are instances of the ultimate chess player that is playing both sides of the board.

Saying that consciousness was once whole and divided itself into pieces to create us is kind of like saying we all existed as one lump of flesh that got divided at some point to create us. It contradicts everything we know about consciousness.

[TryingToWakeUp]

Ummmm....

[TryingToWakeUp]

Survival may be is just a rule of the game that we all agreed to a long time ago, forgot about it and still trying to remember.

And why would we do such a thing? Just kinda got bored floating around up there in nothingness and thought to ourself, "Hey! I got an idea..." We likes it, Precious -- oh yes, we do!

What could possibly cause such a supreme consciousness to compartment itself so? What was it thinking?

Exactly. I think, that's what we got ourselves into. It was probably thinking something like "That was fun. Let's do it again !". Do you like Shreck, Leyla?

[unknown]

Humans do not have free will. They are monkeys. Copy cats.

FOLLOWERS!. SLAVES!.

[Beingof1]

What could possibly cause such a supreme consciousness to compartment itself so? What was it thinking?

Perfection cannot be perfect without the potential for continuos perfecting. If something is truly infinite, there is nothing to compare itself to. When the desire for expansion transpires, out from Absolute stillness springs a self to experience comparisons through limitation. i.e. light and darkness. This new creation experiences itself through the comparison of viewing itself by equal manifestations in essence as well as quality. A new mirror for itself so to speak.
A new mirror for itself to reflect the Absolute stillness through experience in a state of flux. The act of expansion by choice . Choice could only be made, by and through limitation of experience. Not in reality is the Absolute limited but by arbitrary perception of belief.
It forgets itself to find itself. In so doing expands the awareness of love/caring for all that is; the ultimate reality of the ancient Greek concept of the logos expanding through agape.

An example would be that we heal others by healing ourselves and teach others best what we ourselves are learning.

The result is that self image being surrender to the ultimate reality of innocence expanding in and through the self returning to wholeness amplified by the wisdom of exposure to a sense of loss.
To surrender once again in the fullness of understanding, to experience loss again in humility to resonate all of creation in expansion of appreciation and heart felt thanks.
To have all things return again to itself in the humility of surrender to give back exponentially the original desire fulfilled.

Heaven lasts long, and Earth abides
What is the secret of their durability?
Is it because they do not live for themselves
That they endure so long?

-- Lao Tzu

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Interesting questions.

May be seriousness is contextual. Once anything is recognized as a game by a player, his consiousness transcends the rules of the game (he remembers). How in that condition can it still be serious :) ?

Games where the main objectives include competitive survival (accepted by most as The reality) are pretty rough games and become not fun to play as we are becoming the loosing party.

Then can't we all think of a big Game, in which forgetting the rules is imbedded in the results of loosing ?

Well, just like in the movie ExistenZ the question would be how one really knows the game is 'over' or understood as it is? Traditionaly the greatest illusion and the greatest prison is the one you don't see but is there. Another 'joke' of the game, one of its dances could be the conviction one has transcended the 'rules'. How would one escape from that one?

Now which safeguards do you have in place against this game snag, assuming you claim understanding of this.

Winning, losing, gaming? Are you familiar with OS012 perhaps? What's the point of fun as measuring rod as it should be clear that 'fun' is deeply imbedded in samsara, unaware of its own nature, to be able to function at all.

[Leyla Shen]

Matt: Saying that consciousness was once whole and divided itself into pieces to create us is kind of like saying we all existed as one lump of flesh that got divided at some point to create us. It contradicts everything we know about consciousness.

TTWU: Ummmm....

Yes, that was rather amusing. However, I do not think that life began with a single monocell. I reckon it would have to have been multiple monocells. What are your thoughts in this regard?

[TryingToWakeUp]

Well, just like in the movie ExistenZ the question would be how one really knows the game is 'over' or understood as it is? Traditionaly the greatest illusion and the greatest prison is the one you don't see but is there. Another 'joke' of the game, one of its dances could be the conviction one has transcended the 'rules'. How would one escape from that one? Now which safeguards do you have in place against this game snag, assuming you claim understanding of this.

Transcending a reality (a game) should include observing yourself as a player in that game and remembering how the game started or how you joined it. At that point you remember how you agreed to the rules of the game. The moment that happens you know that it is (a game) and it's your choice if you want to continue to play. Once you see clearly it's a game through a memory of how you joined it the fear goes away and no safeguards are needed.

Have you ever had a lucid dream where you knew you were dreaming? You essentially become a master of the dream. There is no concern for safety as you are aware of yourself above the context of the dream. I think lucid dreams can be thought of as a model of enlightment. One becomes aware of the contextual essence of realities by being present in both.

Winning, losing, gaming? Are you familiar with OS012 perhaps? What's the point of fun as measuring rod as it should be clear that 'fun' is deeply imbedded in samsara, unaware of its own nature, to be able to function at all.

I disagree that 'fun' is imbedded in samsara and believe, the states of joy and humor are intrinsic to unblemished consiousness. As are ability to play and have fun. Samsara is the clay from which we once molded our games, but later forgot that it's just clay...

[sevens]

Diebert,

'Fun' as deeply embedded in Samsara? Can you see through Samsara? Nirvana is Samsara - with its true nature lit. The highest pleasure rests in your true nature. Do you desire not to have fun - as a child beneath his stars?

[TryingToWakeUp]

Yes, that was rather amusing. However, I do not think that life began with a single monocell. I reckon it would have to have been multiple monocells. What are your thoughts in this regard?

How did we arrive at monocells again :) ?

By the way, the idea of one 'Big Lump' (I mean that we are all one) is, obviously, not mine. The concept of 'I' implies that one is separate from the rest of us all ,thus creating an illusion of dualism. We think there is 'I' and the rest of us.

Here is an interesting one. Separation of consiousness into entities (or just separation) is related to beginning of karma. When 'I' emerges, it decides it can do things to 'others'. And 'others' can do things to it. Sometimes, 'I' learns about karma and realizes that when it does good things to others, good things will come to 'I', and vice versa. May be it even understands that everything it does to others, it does to itself or, on the other hand, that nobody can do anything to 'I'. Cause 'I' and others are the same.

In this sense, karma is just a delay of the effect made by 'I' on the 'others'. Inputs equal the outputs. All the 'I' does it does to itself. Since delay is a defining charachteristic of time, one can see how time emerges together with 'I' and karma. Time is, probably, an attribute of karma. So these may be some of the rules of the game.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Once you see clearly it's a game through a memory of how you joined it the fear goes away and no safeguards are needed.

It seems you didn't understand my point. How do you know you aren't still immerged in the game, perhaps an aspect of it you don't remember yet? You already know you're capable of forgetting...

I think lucid dreams can be thought of as a model of enlightment. One becomes aware of the contextual essence of realities by being present in both.

Yes indeed. And it's better to be alive than to be dead, better to be awake or lucid than to dream and better to be enlightened than to be deluded. Just like the dead wouldn't know it when a living soul would walk around the cemetery and the sleeping wouldn't know about it when one rose from his bed, the deluded wouldn't know what enlightenment was about really.

I disagree that 'fun' is imbedded in samsara and believe, the states of joy and humor are intrinsic to unblemished consiousness. As are ability to play and have fun. Samsara is the clay from which we once molded our games, but later forgot that it's just clay...

It seems to me by simple observation that states of joy and humor are more easily to be obtained by remaining ignorant. What do you think? Are you suggesting different kinds and quality of these states?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert,

'Fun' as deeply embedded in Samsara? Can you see through Samsara? Nirvana is Samsara - with its true nature lit. The highest pleasure rests in your true nature. Do you desire not to have fun - as a child beneath his stars?

What is there, to desire? Some good times coming your way? Hah!

[sevens]

If you 'desire' to say so...

Semantics, Diebert, semantics!

[hyperqube]

yes even though we as a whole are on a path which has already been written, you each have an individual choice of free will. Free will to decide and to choose the God.

[Leyla Shen]

Nope, I'm not getting this.

Beingof1: Perfection cannot be perfect without the potential for continuos perfecting. If something is truly infinite, there is nothing to compare itself to. When the desire for expansion transpires, out from Absolute stillness springs a self to experience comparisons through limitation. i.e. light and darkness.

So, you define perfection as the act of continuously perfecting?

An infinite thing (a thing with nothing to compare itself to) with a desire for expansion?

I don't get this at all.

[Leyla Shen]

How did we arrive at monocells again :) ?

Well, I have this problem, you see. I like to take straight lines and turn them into circles - no beginning, no end. Then, when I want to make a straight line out of it again, I have no idea where to start. No single place is any more a beginning than any other.

By the way, the idea of one 'Big Lump' (I mean that we are all one) is, obviously, not mine. The concept of 'I' implies that one is separate from the rest of us all ,thus creating an illusion of dualism. We think there is 'I' and the rest of us.

What does this mean, "we are all one"? One what? "We" implies a group of "I"s, in my book. So, is it you, me or we thinking it?

Of course, "I" no more inherently exists than anything else. What more do you need to know, really? "I" is viewpoint -- and an illusory one, at that. Consciousness, on the other hand, is just that. I reckon I've got one area I need to master, philosophically -- the realm of pure logic.

[Beingof1]

Nope, I'm not getting this.

Beingof1: Perfection cannot be perfect without the potential for continuos perfecting. If something is truly infinite, there is nothing to compare itself to. When the desire for expansion transpires, out from Absolute stillness springs a self to experience comparisons through limitation. i.e. light and darkness.

So, you define perfection as the act of continuously perfecting?

An infinite thing (a thing with nothing to compare itself to) with a desire for expansion?

I don't get this at all.

The answer is in the question.
Are you experiencing reality?
Are you experiencing complete or a whole reality?

[sevens]

Beingof1,

Your words are verging on muddy babble. There's truth hiding in there, but you need to be clear. Are you defining 'Perfection' as Reality? If so, then yes - Perfection cannot be perfect without a continous progression. But this is just another way of affirming the infinite causal flow - no way, or need to escape it - everything is already Perfect.

Reality is your Self.

And, you could still expand - without yin or yang. Illumination has light, but its light blows out Duality.

[TryingToWakeUp]

Diebert:

I understand your question. I think transcending games has several implications, some of which of which should be a higher priority than others.

The point that by being present outside a game you transcend the game is, probably, most important. Through having such personal experience one can understand the relative nature of reality in the big sense of the word. This gives one experience of their own spiritual nature and solves the issue of faith that is central to most religions. In other words, you know you are not your body if you are looking at yourself from some other place.
At this point, desire for safety is percieved as irrational. It's something you may still feel that you want, but you see that it has no meaning. How can you be concerned about the safety of your body if you looked at it from some place else. It's still a good thing to take care of it (it's a cool toy to play with) but it's not like you are locked in it any more. You see?

On the other hand, as long as the question or doubt regarding safety remains, one knows he hasn't transcended all games he's playing. Is there a possibility of illusion of freedom from all game conditions while you aren't? Sure, and false enlightenment is a possible trap. However, such condition cannot be permanent due to many reasons. Naturally, experience of transcending a game has higher priority over concerns of how not to wind up in an illusory state of freedom from all games.

And what can give one a higher joy than the freedom from Samsara ?

Leyla:

I am impressed, that you talked about 'I' as a viewpoint. Don't you see that viewpoint is the only thing that is real ? 'I' is a default starting point for building any frame of reference that serves as a reality.

Close your eyes and think of a cat. Who is looking at the cat? Is that cat real? Is the one who is looking at the cat real?

[hyperqube]

well, i hope you find this interesting since the ego is in reality a very bad thing

The sum for the word « killyourego » of length 11 is 900.

English gematria calculator
http://abaababa.ouvaton.org/toto.php?mo ... ia=Compute

and that sum is 911

911 is a sign and a number. in fact henry hudson first landed on manhattan island 9/11/1609.

and 60 years to the day the ground was broken on the pentagon it was attacked.

there are 911 days between 9/11 and 3/11 in spain

Code: Select all

Moon: rise, transit, and set times, UT - 5, 40°42'N, 74°00'W

             Rise     Transit  Set
             -------  -------  -------
 2001-09-11            07:22§   15:06§  

Sun: rise, transit, and set times, UT - 5, 40°42'N, 74°00'W
Twilight: astronomical

             Twilight                            Twilight
             Begins   Rise     Transit  Set      Ends
             -------  -------  -------  -------  -------
 2001-09-11   04:59§   06:33§   12:53§   19:11§   20:45§  

if you believe that synchronicity exists, then maybe you'll buy the theory that novelty is rapidly decreasing.

that's pi and latitude and longitude data is for new york. why, that would be quite easy for you to find out

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert:
Through having such personal experience one can understand the relative nature of reality in the big sense of the word. This gives one experience of their own spiritual nature and solves the issue of faith that is central to most religions. In other words, you know you are not your body if you are looking at yourself from some other place.

So you're saying it's your faith in your experiences and perceptions, and what you think they mean, that make you feel to be in a safe position? It's not different from 'most religions' then, they have their own set of hefty experiences and their explanations of them (faith).

Sure, and false enlightenment is a possible trap. However, such condition cannot be permanent due to many reasons. Naturally, experience of transcending a game has higher priority over concerns of how not to wind up in an illusory state of freedom from all games.

Many reasons like which?

And are you saying here that some experience would be more important than the truth of knowing if one is still fundamentaly deluded or not?

And what can give one a higher joy than the freedom from Samsara ?

Not joy but certainly higher would be mental detachment from the need for joy. Joy being of course a natural thing like Spinoza defined: "Joy is an affect by which the body's power of action is increased or assisted".

[sevens]

That door leads to madness.

Novelty isn't decreasing, spirit is.

[Leyla Shen]

So you're saying it's your faith in your experiences and perceptions, and what you think they mean, that make you feel to be in a safe position? It's not different from 'most religions' then, they have their own set of hefty experiences and their explanations of them (faith).

Diebert, I am struggling with this issue of faith -- particularly as it has been stated here as a necessary component of the path to enlightenment through reason.

What is your position on the idea that one needs to have faith in his ability to reason?

[Leyla Shen]

I am impressed, that you talked about 'I' as a viewpoint. Don't you see that viewpoint is the only thing that is real ? 'I' is a default starting point for building any frame of reference that serves as a reality.

Well, apart from the frame of reference, that is. I mean, surely you understand that if you understand the notion of transcending games -- no? Otherwise, you surely would not be able to play both sides of the chessboard.

Close your eyes and think of a cat. Who is looking at the cat? Is that cat real? Is the one who is looking at the cat real?

The cat is as real as any other perceptible phenomena. It may not have the same qualities as solid matter, but it is just as real.