Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Thinker23
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Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

<img src="http://www.relationship-helps-and-advic ... 0Woman.jpg" style="border:0;"/>
As humans, possessing a superior intellect in the animal kingdom on earth, we tend to think we are creatures of 'free will' and our desires go beyond the basic organism drives of survival, reproduction, and territory/pecking order.

<img src="http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041101/images/bush.jpg" style="border:0;"/>
I look at worldwide current events and I see our leaders are still alpha males fighting over territory. No different than monkeys or dogs marking our territories and fighting to get laid.

I look at my own life and see all of my actions are all about survival, sex, and creating/protecting my space...even in the intellectual sense.
You might say 'yes, but look at our heroes...those who sacrifice their own lives to save others! Just a reflection of the male animal desire to be protective?

Another particular trait is our tendency to create personalities/egos....an intellectual extension of our desire to mark our space and protect it?

Can you think of a single human action that doesn't fall into one of those catagories?

Maybe all of reality runs on instinct. Edited by: Thinker23 at: 7/5/05 18:23
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Thinker,Quote:Quote:<hr>I look at my own life and see all of my actions are all about survival, sex, and creating/protecting my space...even in the intellectual sense.<hr>
Could you try to explain as an example how your posts would be an extension of your survival, sexual urge or your intellectual territory? Or are you talking about the survival of knowledge and insight itself?

In another thread you wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>reality always goes through a stage where it creates intelligence which creates concepts like 'meaning'<hr>
You suggest here that reality itself seems acting, creating and 'nurturing' intelligence. How does this relate to nature's urges in your intellectual actions and motives?
Beingofone
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Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Beingofone »

Quote:Quote:<hr>we tend to think we are creatures of 'free will' and our desires go beyond the basic organism drives of survival, reproduction, and territory/pecking order.<hr>


The Riddler AKA as Mara, ego, Devil, illusion etc.

Jesus called it a thief, liar, and murderer. What it steals is life, what it lies about is life, and what it murders is life. It wants to survive and it can only do that, if it takes your life to use as its own. It is propelled by a survival instinct as its very nature is of the beast - (spooky huh).

It murders life by the belief that "I will die and therefore I must become something or somebody to be remembered in this world`s history". It seeks the same thing the purity of God/wholeness(don`t get hung up on the word God and block everything out) seeks, it just uses different methods as its fundamental belief is mortality. It seeks immortality by the only means it can when limited by finite life.
"To be someone of renown or remembered and therefore other`s perception of what I am will be decisive on my personal immortality". Fantasy that never comes true but it is better than the belief in extinction.
It is its life.

It steals because it believes that preservation of existence is the primary reason for being. If it accumulates enough wealth and possessions it can insulate itself from random events of misfortune or in other words, security. Its belief that death can be deferred by the accumulation of the best of everything the world has to offer. This belief is based in the fear of hunger, disease, and old age.
It is its way.

It lies about what your heart truly desires to preserve itself. It offers the sensations of the body as an alternative to contemplating the issues of mortality. It is a form of mis- direction and keeps itself on a perpetual merry - go - round of new physical stimulation. It can use drugs, sex, or adrenalin, it really doesn`t matter as long as we never have to contemplate our true being. Your heart desires innocent bliss - it offers temporary tantalizing stimulation.
It is its truth.

The Master

Whenever Jesus confronted a demon in the gospels, he almost always questioned their identity. He would ask "What is your name?" Why would Jesus question the identity of an illusion? He must have known he was talking to a phantom because a lie in its essence has no true existence, a lie is pure fiction.

Here is something for us to look into. They never once answered him. The one time that any answer was attempted was to say "we are legion for we are many". If you look close at this answer it is mis- direction. Many what? That is no answer.

The interesting thing is that demons usually made the statement about Jesus " I know who you are, you are the Holy One of God". They knew who he was but could not answer the question of their own identity. After this simple question was asked by Jesus, the transformation of healing and deliverance would transpire. The demon ceased to be or was "cast out".

The solution to dealing with ego is to question identity. The ego cannot and will not answer this question as it knows it will cease to be. If you blow up a balloon until it bursts, you can never put the balloon back together.

If you were now restored by grace to the integrity man possessed before sin, you would be complete master of these impulses. None would ever go astray, but flee to the one sole good, the goal of all desire, God himself.
-The Cloud of Unknowing

What is not eternal is eternally out-of-date.
-C. S. Lewis

Once you know you are truly immortal by knowing who you are, ego has no place to hide and so ceases to exist. Experience of the resurrection of eternal life cures us of all.There are two ways to describe this awareness. One is to say "I am nothing" - the other is to say "I am everything".
You cannot just think this - you must be this.

You become
the way,
the truth
and the life.

PS - This may sound like Bible thumping but if you allow that to block you from cleansing thought - you are no better off than a fundy
Thinker23
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Could you try to explain as an example how your posts would be an extension of your survival, sexual urge or your intellectual territory? <hr>
I have a desire to create a model of reality.
To know the truth about who I am, where I am, and what's going on here.
When I take an honest look at this drive I can see it's mostly about seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, basic survival instinct traits found in all healthy organisms (even a single-cell organism must seek life and avoid death, must seek chemical balance over imbalance, must seek the good/supportive and avoid the bad/destructive).
How is my model drive related to my survival as an organism? The information gives me greater control on the elements in my reality (conscious creating through magnetic resonance). My initial drive was about wealth (survival security)
Also I get a certain pride over figuring things out building and feeding my ego, another survival tool for my body and a territorial construct....I am 'me', respect 'me', I defend 'me', don't cross my boundaries about 'me'.

Quote:Quote:<hr> Or are you talking about the survival of knowledge and insight itself?<hr>
No I don't see knowledge/insight as an entity to anf of itself.
It is definitely a survival tool for society...learn from the past to survive better, move quicker, become more mobile, better defense systems, etc.

Quote:Quote:<hr>You suggest here that reality itself seems acting, creating and 'nurturing' intelligence. How does this relate to nature's urges in your intellectual actions and motives?<hr>
I believe it does/did, but not in the sense it made/makes an intellectual decision to do such (as if reality had a personality) it is all done by instinct...let me explain.

It's obvious when we look at our corner of reality that it develops intelligence (my definition: the ability to make better survival choices based on the use of memory).
It's also obvious that at some point in reality's expression or evolutionary stage, intelligence was not yet developed (no feedback loops). Some scientists now are suggesting everything creates memory ("The Living Energy Universe: A Fundamental Discovery That Transforms Science and Medicine" Dr. Gary E. R. Schwartz, Dr. Linda G. S. Russek) but even if that's true, not all are intelligent (able to use memory).
Also obviously when this ability for feedback or memory was created it wasn't out of some ego gratification and it wasn't an intellectual choice (no intellect yet), it was formed by will linked to a desire to survive.
So, in my opinion, all intellectual pursuits has in it's creative roots 'the will to survive" and intellect itself was birthed as a survival tool.

Thinker23
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

Hi Beingofone!

I believe the only immortal is the energetic/consciousness field itself,
every-thing else will dissolve back to the primal vibration when the involutionary stage is complete...even
memories and any other image built from the subtle energy as a deviation from the primal vibration.

I believe the Bible said it this way, "I am the beginning and the end."

I respect your beliefs about Jesus.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/sharonmills/dogsmile" style="border:0;"/>Thinker23
Beingofone
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Beingofone »


Are your passionate attempts at survival going to succeed?
Is anyone going to survive?
Thinker23
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Re: Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Are your passionate attempts at survival going to succeed?<hr>
So far so good...<img src="http://members.cox.net/sharonmills/dogsmile" style="border:0;"/>

Quote:Quote:<hr>Is anyone going to survive? <hr>
Just the One that always is, never born, never dies, from which every-thing comes and every-thing returns, the priimal vibration, some say it sounds like 'OMmmmmmmm...a humminf sound.
Nobody can become immortal...you're either 'always present' or not. I believe our human concept of 'time' is what clouds our perspective...ideas like eternity is'the rest of time' , etc. .
<img src="http://members.cox.net/sharonmills/dogsmile" style="border:0;"/>
Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway »

Thinker23 wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>the priimal vibration, some say it sounds like 'OMmmmmmmm...a humminf sound.<hr>

That's the sound that air makes when it hits your eardrums.
Thinker23
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Re: Comment

Post by Thinker23 »

Quote:Quote:<hr><span style="text-decoration:underline">some</span> say it sounds like 'OMmmmmmmm<hr>

Quote:Quote:<hr>That's the sound that air makes when it hits your eardrums.<hr>

Never noticed, not sure about the sound just about the process.
Beingofone
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Beingofone »

Thinker
Quote:Quote:<hr>look at my own life and see all of my actions are all about survival, sex, and creating/protecting my space...even in the intellectual sense.
Another particular trait is our tendency to create personalities/egos....an intellectual extension of our desire to mark our space and protect it?<hr>

You begin the thread with this premise.


Beingofone - Quote:Is anyone going to survive?

Quote:Quote:<hr>Just the One that always is, never born, never dies, from which every-thing comes and every-thing returns, the priimal vibration, some say it sounds like 'OMmmmmmmm...a humminf sound.<hr>

Do you truly believe this conclusion?
Then why the striving of survival as though something can be lost?

Quote:Quote:<hr>Nobody can become immortal...you're either 'always present' or not. I believe our human concept of 'time' is what clouds our perspective...ideas like eternity is'the rest of time' , etc.<hr>

I believe - just like you, time and space tend to cloud the ability to perceive reality.
Your attempt at a conclusion is that we are not immortal and never can be but we kinda blend back into the fabric of eternal vibration or source, is that right?
I will click my heels together three times and say.
"There is no place like OHMMMM".
;)

My question is - why take the long way around?
If that is the destination, why not just dip one`s head under water and take a deep breath?

Why is it inherent in all life to desire life?
Always wanted to use that word twice in a sentence.
Thinker23
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Do you truly believe this conclusion? <hr>
Yes as a human and and a personality it's hard to swallow but I truly deduce the reality of it. I try to think of it as 'sleep' instead of 'death'...when it's truly time we will be ready and want involution.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Then why the striving of survival as though something can be lost?<hr>
It's our nature to survive.
Plus if the Vedas are correct in their astrology a complete evolutionary stage is like 155.5 trillion years so there's 155 some odd billion years left.
If you knew today was your last day would that stop you from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain (survival impulses) on your last day?

Quote:Quote:<hr>My question is - why take the long way around? If that is the destination, why not just dip one`s head under water and take a deep breath?
<hr>
Ultimately who we are is always alive.
The reality of the temporal part only makes this stage MORE valuable, MORE exciting, this is the best part of the show where we as the eternal essence see ourself and creation for what it is....awesome.
I deduce there's parts of ourself that never gains intelligence...we are truly blessed.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Why is it inherent in all life to desire life?
<hr>
I don't know.
Since I believe any form is a manifestation of repetitious movement by our essence..
a pattern of movement,
and
the part of ourself making the pattern comes to think of itself as the form/body...
identifying with the temporal form,
it naturally wants to continue the pattern/live and knows intuitively it's temporal..my guess??? Edited by: Thinker23 at: 7/6/05 21:29
Sapius
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Sapius »

Thinker,
Quote:Quote:<hr>Maybe all of reality runs on instinct.<hr>

Most probably it does, but please bear my rambling. In my opinion, it is an "intellectual" instinct. I do not mean 'intellect' as defined in the dictionary. It seems to be more like a simple code of 'if this happens, then that is bound to happen' - "intellectual instinct". Reality seems to self oscillate between two extremes of "chaos" and "balance" with miniature balances occurring at all levels leading to others, and one of them being intellectual life, and what a balance reached against what odds!

It is obvious that life takes a foot hold and drives itself on to an ever-complex stage when given the chance. The chance is not pre-planned as in when or where, but the potential is ever present, hence also 'intellectual instinct'.

Quote:Quote:<hr>I look at my own life and see all of my actions are all about survival, sex, and creating/protecting my space...even in the intellectual sense.
You might say 'yes, but look at our heroes...those who sacrifice their own lives to save others! Just a reflection of the male animal desire to be protective?
<hr>

Agreed that human intelligence is a product of evolution for the sake of survival, but it seems to be more than that. I understand the reasons involved in sacrifices meant to save others, but what about the ones who commit suicide for reasons that may seem trivial or illogical? To save what or who are they dieing for?

This brings us to free-will. I believe free-will does exist and it also does not violate the law of cause and effect. Any personal decision made is definitely bound by a cause, but the cause is not external, it is an internal mental process. So, for all practical purposes, as individuals, we do have free-will bound by our own internal causes created through the process of thinking.

Whatever one desires is a personal decision made using causes created through internal mental processes of that particular being, hence, free-will does exist as far as any individual goes.








Thinker23
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »

In trying to think of a single act that can't be linked to one of the basic instinctual drives I thought about the exercises I once did when studying the famous occultist Rudolph Steiner.
He taught a method to disrupt your normal cycles of reality (what you are attracting) by purposely doing something you would never normally do...ever. For me I was driving to school one day and turned completely around and drove away , in the opposite direction of my destination for miles and miles.

Why wouldn't that qualify I thought....using my mind to act totally against all reason and instinct.
Following my motives to the deepest level I was doing this exercise to increase my occult skills...once again..building a new space/territory...ultimately better survival skills....might as well be building a brick hut and stocking it with food. LOL

What if I did a nonsensical act right now...with just the intent to exercise my 'free will' against all instincts?
In all cases we'd have to get back to...
why is 'free will' important?
What makes me contemplate it?

An honest answer for me would be 'I want to be free, separate from the whole, to secure my immortality and feel safe......once again...survival in a different guise.


Where does 'desire'and 'will' come from?
Probably the evolutiuonary result of our basic instincts becoming more complex...synergy.
Beingofone
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Beingofone »

Quote:Quote:<hr>It's our nature to survive<hr>

It is my nature to live.

Quote:Quote:<hr>If you knew today was your last day would that stop you from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain (survival impulses) on your last day?<hr>

Everyday is my last day.
I do not seek pleasure or avoid pain. I do not think or live in those terms as every moment is filled to the over flowing with a steady rush of expansion that defies descriptions of what to avoid or seek.
I do not take a stroll on the interstate but I am not stuck in mere mortality either. The mind and experience expands beyond the trappings of physical incarnation as the ultimate of our reality when we are ready.

Quote:Quote:<hr>The reality of the temporal part only makes this stage MORE valuable, MORE exciting, this is the best part of the show where we as the eternal essence see ourself and creation for what it is....awesome.<hr>

When you have truly experienced this reality - you do not struggle with survival, pleasure and pain, or signifigance.
Until then enjoy the game.

Quote:Quote:<hr>I don't know.<hr>

Until you do, you will be like the philosopher Hegel who attempted an all encompassing theory. That is still what it remains - a theory.
You cannot build a model of reality until you resolve the issue of your own existence.
Once you do solve this enigma - yup you can have anything you want. Funny tho, you don`t ask for money, sex, or fame.


Edited by: Beingofone at: 7/7/05 15:09
Thinker23
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Re: Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Thinker23 »


Quote:Quote:<hr>When you have truly experienced this reality - you do not struggle with survival, pleasure and pain,<hr>
Who's struggling...I'm sure if I threw rocks at you, you'd dodge them


Quote:Quote:<hr>Until you do, you will be like the philosopher Hegel who.... <hr>
Ouch....cheap shot!
No one knows everything...not even you.
Beingofone
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Re: Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Beingofone »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Who's struggling...I'm sure if I threw rocks at you, you'd dodge them<hr>

You are assuming I have not experienced what I am sharing with you.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Ouch....cheap shot!
No one knows everything...not even you.<hr>

LOL- You can view it that way and so according to what you believe it becomes real for you.
Perhaps I am trying to help you build your model, after all, if all you get is pats on the back and atta boy`s will you be able to remain true to your heart`s desire?

I agree with you much more than is apparent. I have also used faith mixed with meditative thought to create or manifest desire into experiential reality. (mind blowing experience when first reckognized)
So you can manifest desire into reality - OK, everyone does that.
I believe you could be using this knowledge that you are now consciously aware of to preserve and catapult the ego and therefore I am asking serious questions. I usually never share this knowledge and my experience with creative awareness for obvious reasons.
You can be so caught up in the "if it can be done?" when you should be asking "should it be done?".

My questions still stand - why do you desire life and if you can create anything you want, what do you want?

PS - I am not your opponent, perhaps I am being a friend.
Sapius
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Sapius »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Thinker: What if I did a nonsensical act right now...with just the intent to exercise my 'free will' against all instincts?<hr>

Why would only a nonsensical act prove that you are exercising free will? Any decision made is basically yours because all sensory information stored in memory is used internally during the process of decision-making, including your decision to act nonsensically.

Quote:Quote:<hr>In all cases we'd have to get back to...
why is 'free will' important?<hr>Well, this is a different subject. First I need to know if you understand me on free-will, not necessarily agree.

Quote:Quote:<hr>What makes me contemplate it?<hr>
All things experience existence, but we are complex enough to experience it meaningfully, logically, and the fact that we are the only thing that has the capability to ask WHY? We even contemplate on why do we ask why? Contemplation is a resultant basic property of the process of thinking which is one more proof pointing towards free-will. To think things of your own choosing. No-thing or No-body forces you to take a certain mental course once you have soaked your memory with sensual experiences. If I had no free-will, how could I ever disagree with another. In fact, I would be a 'yes sir' to the first thing I heard and followed it until I heard something else.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Where does 'desire'and 'will' come from?
Probably the evolutiuonary result of our basic instincts becoming more complex...synergy.<hr> I believe that is the case.
sloof
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by sloof »

1: Do you believe that there is a free will (defined as: "complete control over oneself") for us humans?
2: Yes
1: Why do you believe that?
2: Well, seen from the one's own perspective, yes. I can choose to do whatever I want.
1: We can "choose to do what we want," but we cannot choose to want what we want.
2: Our "wants" are determined by our personalities.
1: We don't choose our personality either. Our personality is the sum of our inherent genetic traits and our experiences, neither of which we can control.
2: So because our personality was not created by our own will, we do not have free will?
1: Can you have the "will" to do something absent some external impetus? Everything happens because of past events. Nothing can change what comes directly from past to future.
2: So you say everything is already decided?
1: Destined, rather than decided. Decided implies a governing intelligent force (god) being present.
2: So I suddenly decide to pick up a coin and throw it, and it's heads. That was destined to happen already?
1: Yes, past events forced you to do it. You do not "suddenly" do it; you are only doing it because you have had this conversation. So unless randomness exists, you are the product of cause and effect: what happens "now" creates the next "now", and so on; you have no free will.
2: Then is there random?
1: According to science (assuming all matter, even in the realm of quantum physics, adheres to absolute laws) every atom is moved by some kind of "force" (which may be said to be determined by nature). Assuming that humans are creatures composed entirely of physical matter (denying a spiritual realm), or that this spiritual realm has no influence over concrete reality, random cannot exist. Therefore free will cannot exist, and every action is simply the result of the interactions of atoms. (Note also that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient god would be incompatible with free will, for obvious reasons.) In fact, a scenario allowing for free will is impossible to conceive; the existence of randomness would only allow for "random impulses," which, being causes for action, are not the effects of will, but of chance. Thus, in the sense of "choosing to <span style="text-decoration:underline">want</span> what you <span style="text-decoration:underline">'want'</span>" free will cannot exist. The internal paradox is inescapable: you will always be a slave to your own desire; and you cannot choose that desire. (Even a denial of your "desire" [as in, for pleasure] is the fulfillment of your desire to deny that "desire". Edited by: sloof at: 7/9/05 16:09
Sapius
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Sapius »

Sloof, is there some new point you would like to make by your post? I think there is no harm in thinking beyond this age-old discourse, and that is what I'm trying to explain.

As I see it, there is no paradox in saying that free will does and does not exist at the same time, because essentially it is seen from two different points of views. One cannot see through any paradox unless one stops seeing things as either black or white, where essentially everything is but a different shade of gray.

Although all things are bound by the seamless flow of cause and effect, including free will, "things" do not come into being unless they have certain form at certain stages of effects, which means that the culmination of causes give rise to NEW effects that did not exist earlier. A tree is defined as a tree and not its component parts, which are different things coming together. Its separate component parts cannot perform the functions that a tree as a whole can, which means that a new function has come into being only when causes have brought forth a tree. Seen form the point of view of seamless continuous flow of causality things do not have inherent existence, but for all practical purposes, considering the dimension we are bound to, forms do exist and are responsible for certain further new effects.

Because of the past connections between events, could we say that forms do not exist? I agree that inherently no-thing exists when seen in the light that all things are a result of past effects hence essentially have no real substance, but when we say things, they must have some form for us to define it so, otherwise what are we talking about?

Another thing that I don't understand is what has randomness got to do with natural causes coming together and resulting in a new effect? No effect is random, and it has nothing to do with "free will" of a temporary form (human mind), which is nothing more than a "new" effect calculatedly performed through a process called thinking, and only a mind being able to give rise to it, given all practical reasons. I do know what the entire mind is dependant on, but how this process we know as the ¡¥mind¡¦ uses that information to achieve a NEW effect, which without a mind would not have been possible, is the question. I do know what all a brain is dependant on, but there is a brain after all.

Quote:Quote:<hr>1: We don't choose our personality either. Our personality is the sum of our inherent genetic traits and our experiences, neither of which we can control.
<hr> No, although I do not have control over both, those are not the only things that my personality is based on. It is also based on my personal likes and dislikes, that is, after having those inherent genetic traits and experiencing any thing at all. Experiences have <span style="text-decoration:underline">directly</span> nothing to do with my likes or dislikes because experiences are just simply that, it is my personal understanding and valuing that convince me to take a certain course rather than another, where as, the same experience will take someone else to a different course because of his personal values.

We are absolutely bound by cause and effect, but we are not absolute puppets. Everything may be destined in the absolute sense, but we could ¡¥agree or disagree¡¦ in a temporal world. Things can go ¡§wrong¡¨ in the temporal world, whereas nothing is wrong in the absolute sense, at the same time.


sloof
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by sloof »

I noticed that there are infinite times being chosen at every single moments- Therefore it does not matter even IF everything is destined to be. Future cannot be known from our NOW for every NOW connects to the infinite NOW that is apart from us. There are infinite I in infinite possible existance. So our future is not known-- what decides it is also unknown. At least for the moment.
Sapius
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Re: Desire...Willpower...Free Will?

Post by Sapius »


Sloof, I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I can simply make no sense or connections to what is being discussed.

What has <span style="text-decoration:underline">not knowing</span> the future got to do with the NOW which is based on past memories giving us a sense of continuity of an individual - temporarily existing form - called the mind, or its capabilities of producing a new effect? I know that infinite new effects are being produced at every instance, but why can't a temporal form be held responsible, temporarily, for producing certain effects? In fact, if it were not for all those temporal forms, there would be nothing to differentiate, hence no consciousness.

TryingToWakeUp
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What drives us. The nature of survival as a primal source.

Post by TryingToWakeUp »

I just discovered this forum. It is great. I have been reading everyone's posts on the matter. Very interesting.

Survival may be is just a rule of the game that we all agreed to a long time ago, forgot about it and still trying to remember. But we are still playing the game. I think the true nature of reality is described by the concept of Game. Whatever limits exist may have been created as rules of the game by the consiousness that partitioned itself into individual entities to create the game condition. We are instances of the ultimate chess player that is playing both sides of the board. It needs to consiously forget (partition itself) in order to play. Ultimately, it is all a game. It's playing....The flow of conciousness between its partitions as well as intermittent merging of those can be viewed as one of the aspects of the ultimate vibration...
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hi,

The problem with the concept of 'game' is that it might suggest there's not much seriousness involved (it's just a game) while without the utmost conviction and determination the game loses its dynamic and purpose quickly (the problem of modernity). Part of this supposed game would then be not to know it's a game. So we have here a contradiction?

Why not use 'war', 'conflict' or 'strife', for example?

The wording 'ultimate vibration' I have great difficulty with, it sounds too much like a joy ride or a massage belt. It might be just me though, I'd prefer just to say 'ultimate' or 'ultimate reality'.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Of course there's the link with the Hindu concept of Lila, 'play', the illusive dance of Maya, with karma being the active principle of the play. This divine perspective though must not make us forget that to break through the illusion much sacrifice is needed and therefore total seriousness and focus. Some children can play their games like that too, I noticed.
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Survival may be is just a rule of the game that we all agreed to a long time ago, forgot about it and still trying to remember.
And why would we do such a thing? Just kinda got bored floating around up there in nothingness and thought to ourself, "Hey! I got an idea..." We likes it, Precious -- oh yes, we do!

What could possibly cause such a supreme consciousness to compartment itself so? What was it thinking?
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