I've been reading what is being posted on this board for a while, but usually did not feel compelled to join in. But something has been keeping be busy and I wonder what you think of it.
I'm starting to wonder if choosing any path (or conviction, or however you want to call it) in full knowledge that this path is not inherently better than any other paths is not logically impossible. After all, if it is equal to all other paths that can be chosen, there must be something wrong with the process of picking any single path. Choosing is discriminating and yet there seems no reasonable basis for discriminating. There is always a starting point that simply has to be assumed because it's impossible to assume assume nothing at all. This starting point is a choice with no basis that can be explained, therefore no reasonable basis (a natural one maybe?). It seems more like a leap of faith. In other words: any path you choose is one of faith and in these terms all paths are equal.
How must such a conviction be sustained? Can it be sustained, in full consciousness? I myself find it a repulsing thought, and whenever I become conscious of it I experience the wrongness of it in an almost physical way.
For a person who does not hold reason highest of all it will not be a big problem. But I regard reason as thinking, therefore as an inescapable thing. If reason is inescapable, and reason cannot escape the notion that I seem to be making choices with no rationale backing it up (not all the way), there seems to be something very wrong.. Edited by: Autem at: 6/8/05 16:23
Choosing a single path
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Autem wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> I'm starting to wonder if choosing any path (or conviction, or however you want to call it) in full knowledge that this path is not inherently better than any other paths is not logically impossible. After all, if it is equal to all other paths that can be chosen, there must be something wrong with the process of picking any single path. Choosing is discriminating and yet there seems no reasonable basis for discriminating. There is always a starting point that simply has to be assumed because it's impossible to assume assume nothing at all. <hr> Your reasoning here is impeccable. It's true there is no objective basis for choosing the path of truth over any other path. Such a choice will always be subjective in nature.
If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> This starting point is a choice with no basis that can be explained, therefore no reasonable basis (a natural one maybe?). It seems more like a leap of faith. In other words: any path you choose is one of faith and in these terms all paths are equal. <hr> It's like eating and quelling hunger. The path of eating is inherently no more rational or valid than any other path that could be chosen in those circumstances. But if one happens to value physical well-being and the absence of suffering, then one won't have too much difficulty in choosing to eat.
Quote:Quote:<hr>How must such a conviction be sustained? Can it be sustained, in full consciousness? I myself find it a repulsing thought, and whenever I become conscious of it I experience the wrongness of it in an almost physical way.
For a person who does not hold reason highest of all it will not be a big problem. But I regard reason as thinking, therefore as an inescapable thing. If reason is inescapable, and reason cannot escape the notion that I seem to be making choices with no rationale backing it up (not all the way), there seems to be something very wrong..<hr> There's nothing wrong, really. Reason tells you there is no rational basis for choosing the path of reason over any path - and you accept this reasoning, which means that you have already embarked on the path of reason to some degree. So really, you are anguishing over a choice that has already been made and is no longer an issue for you.
The bottom line is this: If you find pleasure in overcoming ignorance and deepening your knowledge of Reality, then you will naturally value truth and reason. You don't have to stop valuing these things just because they can't be rationally justified. As you pointed out, no path can be rationally justified at bottom. So again, it's a non-issue. Just concentrate on enjoying the truth - if that is what you want to do.
Quote:Quote:<hr> I'm starting to wonder if choosing any path (or conviction, or however you want to call it) in full knowledge that this path is not inherently better than any other paths is not logically impossible. After all, if it is equal to all other paths that can be chosen, there must be something wrong with the process of picking any single path. Choosing is discriminating and yet there seems no reasonable basis for discriminating. There is always a starting point that simply has to be assumed because it's impossible to assume assume nothing at all. <hr> Your reasoning here is impeccable. It's true there is no objective basis for choosing the path of truth over any other path. Such a choice will always be subjective in nature.
If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> This starting point is a choice with no basis that can be explained, therefore no reasonable basis (a natural one maybe?). It seems more like a leap of faith. In other words: any path you choose is one of faith and in these terms all paths are equal. <hr> It's like eating and quelling hunger. The path of eating is inherently no more rational or valid than any other path that could be chosen in those circumstances. But if one happens to value physical well-being and the absence of suffering, then one won't have too much difficulty in choosing to eat.
Quote:Quote:<hr>How must such a conviction be sustained? Can it be sustained, in full consciousness? I myself find it a repulsing thought, and whenever I become conscious of it I experience the wrongness of it in an almost physical way.
For a person who does not hold reason highest of all it will not be a big problem. But I regard reason as thinking, therefore as an inescapable thing. If reason is inescapable, and reason cannot escape the notion that I seem to be making choices with no rationale backing it up (not all the way), there seems to be something very wrong..<hr> There's nothing wrong, really. Reason tells you there is no rational basis for choosing the path of reason over any path - and you accept this reasoning, which means that you have already embarked on the path of reason to some degree. So really, you are anguishing over a choice that has already been made and is no longer an issue for you.
The bottom line is this: If you find pleasure in overcoming ignorance and deepening your knowledge of Reality, then you will naturally value truth and reason. You don't have to stop valuing these things just because they can't be rationally justified. As you pointed out, no path can be rationally justified at bottom. So again, it's a non-issue. Just concentrate on enjoying the truth - if that is what you want to do.
Re: Choosing a single path
The problem doesn't seem to be based in reason. Therefore it becomes a non-issue in your terms and I used to be inclined to dismiss such problems.
But on a different level (assuming that these levels still exist or used to exist in everyone), awareness that you're doing something in life on the basis of a choice over which you had no control, that will never turn out to be the best of all choices to any objective or higher standard.. does put a lot of pressure on somebody. It may be a non-issue rationally, but there is more to existing than just rational thought. Some things simply happen to you and this thought can be one of them. I find it a very interesting one.
But on a different level (assuming that these levels still exist or used to exist in everyone), awareness that you're doing something in life on the basis of a choice over which you had no control, that will never turn out to be the best of all choices to any objective or higher standard.. does put a lot of pressure on somebody. It may be a non-issue rationally, but there is more to existing than just rational thought. Some things simply happen to you and this thought can be one of them. I find it a very interesting one.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr>But on a different level (assuming that these levels still exist or used to exist in everyone), awareness that you're doing something in life on the basis of a choice over which you had no control, that will never turn out to be the best of all choices to any objective or higher standard.. does put a lot of pressure on somebody.<hr>
I would sooner say that removing the impetus for absolute objectivity redirects the pressure into different channels, and allows for different thoughts. It's different, not necessarily more or less intense.
I've occasionally had moments where I could swear that a disturbing or complicated thought has had me barely holding down my lunch. How is that any different than someone with a weak stomach riding a rollercoaster, or hearing a scary story? When, on an idle day, your own thoughts are capable of turning against you, just try to be as honest as possible. There is nothing more to ask of yourself.
I ask you: what rationale is there for a single path?
I would sooner say that removing the impetus for absolute objectivity redirects the pressure into different channels, and allows for different thoughts. It's different, not necessarily more or less intense.
I've occasionally had moments where I could swear that a disturbing or complicated thought has had me barely holding down my lunch. How is that any different than someone with a weak stomach riding a rollercoaster, or hearing a scary story? When, on an idle day, your own thoughts are capable of turning against you, just try to be as honest as possible. There is nothing more to ask of yourself.
I ask you: what rationale is there for a single path?
Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr>I've occasionally had moments where I could swear that a disturbing or complicated thought has had me barely holding down my lunch. How is that any different than someone with a weak stomach riding a rollercoaster, or hearing a scary story?<hr>
It isn't really different. But that person on a rollercoaster will want to get out, to do something about the situation. I would say it feels to him, at that moment, unnatural or wrong.
Quote:Quote:<hr>When, on an idle day, your own thoughts are capable of turning against you, just try to be as honest as possible.<hr>
On what basis do you suggest I be honest in a situation where I am aware of the untimate inadequacy of any thoughts I may have? Or rather, the irrelevance of what I chose or will choose?
I don't mean to ask for a solution. I was curious if anybody has had this problem with staying true to one's path. Or lack of path. Or paths. It doesn't matter how many.
It isn't really different. But that person on a rollercoaster will want to get out, to do something about the situation. I would say it feels to him, at that moment, unnatural or wrong.
Quote:Quote:<hr>When, on an idle day, your own thoughts are capable of turning against you, just try to be as honest as possible.<hr>
On what basis do you suggest I be honest in a situation where I am aware of the untimate inadequacy of any thoughts I may have? Or rather, the irrelevance of what I chose or will choose?
I don't mean to ask for a solution. I was curious if anybody has had this problem with staying true to one's path. Or lack of path. Or paths. It doesn't matter how many.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr>I was curious if anybody has had this problem with staying true to one's path. Or lack of path. Or paths. It doesn't matter how many.<hr>
I have that problem all the time. Not trying to give a solution, but I circumvent it by giving myself more time. You are being honest about the problem right now; if you give yourself more time to see all the angles, you'll come up with a solution.
All thoughts are inadequate. That's your premise. So start asking yourself questions about it. What are you going to do with this new knowledge? What can you infer from it? What does this tell you about yourself and other people?
I like to keep a journal, because there's often too much going on in my head to figure it all out at once.
My chosen approach, essentially, is to be as honest as possible, and hope that my thoughts will one day be valuable to someone else. Regardless, they are valuable to me.
I have that problem all the time. Not trying to give a solution, but I circumvent it by giving myself more time. You are being honest about the problem right now; if you give yourself more time to see all the angles, you'll come up with a solution.
All thoughts are inadequate. That's your premise. So start asking yourself questions about it. What are you going to do with this new knowledge? What can you infer from it? What does this tell you about yourself and other people?
I like to keep a journal, because there's often too much going on in my head to figure it all out at once.
My chosen approach, essentially, is to be as honest as possible, and hope that my thoughts will one day be valuable to someone else. Regardless, they are valuable to me.
Re: Choosing a single path
Sure, I will eventually come up with a solution. But never The Solution. It is definitely a distinction worthy of making.
It is fascinating that we're making decisions that are arbitrary in the grand scheme of things (for there is no grand scheme of things) and even in one's own experience. Because we can still choose to take responsibility for these decisions. Despite everything, really. That makes it compelling.
It is really impossible to understand things like 'thinking one's own thoughts' before realising that we're free to take responsibility.
It is fascinating that we're making decisions that are arbitrary in the grand scheme of things (for there is no grand scheme of things) and even in one's own experience. Because we can still choose to take responsibility for these decisions. Despite everything, really. That makes it compelling.
It is really impossible to understand things like 'thinking one's own thoughts' before realising that we're free to take responsibility.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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blah
Absolutely. I've come to accept that every word I say is no better than a lie, so I play with it. I watch how a few well-considered words can bring someone to tears, or make them adore you. But even that is a lie: they don't really adore you. They just love having their ego stroked.
I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way. For instance, if I were to be totally honest with myself, I would have to admit that my journals don't really have any value to me, nor to anyone else. I just like telling myself that --
Self-delusion is enrapturing. Almost as fun as lying to strangers. When I get bored of it, I'll move onto something else. Maybe I'll write some messed up children's books, or become a fisherman, or something. I have such a bad memory, I will always be able to take pleasure out of lying to myself. :p
I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way. For instance, if I were to be totally honest with myself, I would have to admit that my journals don't really have any value to me, nor to anyone else. I just like telling myself that --
Self-delusion is enrapturing. Almost as fun as lying to strangers. When I get bored of it, I'll move onto something else. Maybe I'll write some messed up children's books, or become a fisherman, or something. I have such a bad memory, I will always be able to take pleasure out of lying to myself. :p
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
The arbitrariness really only exists in the "choosing" to be knowledgeable and happy - that is, it exists at an earlier stage which precedes the subsequent choice to seek enlightenment. Once you aribitrarily decide, or once Nature determines you to choose, that acquiring knowledge and experiencing happiness are very worthwhile, then pursuing the path to enlightenment becomes a rational, sensible choice.
Valuing knowledge and happiness is a subjective thing. As we all agree, there is no objective edict out there that these things must be valued. It is simply a subjective desire on the part of the individual. The individual decides subjectively that learning about Reality and experiencing the greatest happiness of all is worth pursuing, which then makes it natural for him to choose to lead the philosophic life.
Valuing knowledge and happiness is a subjective thing. As we all agree, there is no objective edict out there that these things must be valued. It is simply a subjective desire on the part of the individual. The individual decides subjectively that learning about Reality and experiencing the greatest happiness of all is worth pursuing, which then makes it natural for him to choose to lead the philosophic life.
Re: Choosing a single path
Nature doesn't cease to influence you once you've made your choice. It may be sensible to the person at the time of making the choice, but this person can change in such a way that it no longer makes sense. It can, by natural/arbitrary factors, become an unnatural path to take. Which would mean continuing on the path that was chosen a long time ago would be a great struggle against irrational forces. Maybe new choices have to be made in these cases. Maybe there is a greater challenge in doing this instead of staying the same, as it is generally an unacceptable thing to overtly change one's opinions radically. It seems like an undermining of your past convictions.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr> it is generally an unacceptable thing to overtly change one's opinions radically. It seems like an undermining of your past convictions.<hr>
I believe you are treading a fine line here. Changing too many opinions at once may be unacceptable to others, and it is certainly dangerous to oneself in many ways. But if there are solid reasons for this change it could be, for lack of a better word, necessary. There are of course those who make such changes recklessly, and too often, just as there are those who will never change their beliefs throughout their entire life. Both extremes have negative consequences: one makes one an undependable hummingbird; the other turns one into a stubborn ox.
Both the hummingbird and the ox have their own happiness, and their own stupidities.
I believe you are treading a fine line here. Changing too many opinions at once may be unacceptable to others, and it is certainly dangerous to oneself in many ways. But if there are solid reasons for this change it could be, for lack of a better word, necessary. There are of course those who make such changes recklessly, and too often, just as there are those who will never change their beliefs throughout their entire life. Both extremes have negative consequences: one makes one an undependable hummingbird; the other turns one into a stubborn ox.
Both the hummingbird and the ox have their own happiness, and their own stupidities.
Re: Choosing a single path
There is actually another type: the indecisive person who thinks about changing, but doesn't. Not stubborn, not all over the place, not making sensible choices... nothing at all, really. I've been this type often, most of the time. I can only appreciate these phases because they precede the more meaningful times.
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Autem wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Nature doesn't cease to influence you once you've made your choice. It may be sensible to the person at the time of making the choice, but this person can change in such a way that it no longer makes sense. It can, by natural/arbitrary factors, become an unnatural path to take. <hr> This is a very common process, of course. All too often people become bored with the high ideals of their youths and slink back into a life of mediocrity and comfort.
This is where the reality of faith comes into play. Initially, when one is young and starting out on the philosophic path, the enthusiasm and energy levels are high. Many intellectual breakthroughs are made and one feels that one will become a perfect Buddha in no time. But alas, over time, these things begin to dry up. The ego "hits" are no longer there. If one doesn't plant deep spiritual roots in the early phases and really commits ones's whole life to becoming a sage, then it is very easy to start wavering at this point and fall away.
To keep your mind pointed towards Truth and continue to push ahead through those darker times, even when you can no longer see the reason for doing so, is a necessary ingredient for spiritual success. This is faith. Without it, one cannot lay down the platform for the sagely life.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Nature doesn't cease to influence you once you've made your choice. It may be sensible to the person at the time of making the choice, but this person can change in such a way that it no longer makes sense. It can, by natural/arbitrary factors, become an unnatural path to take. <hr> This is a very common process, of course. All too often people become bored with the high ideals of their youths and slink back into a life of mediocrity and comfort.
This is where the reality of faith comes into play. Initially, when one is young and starting out on the philosophic path, the enthusiasm and energy levels are high. Many intellectual breakthroughs are made and one feels that one will become a perfect Buddha in no time. But alas, over time, these things begin to dry up. The ego "hits" are no longer there. If one doesn't plant deep spiritual roots in the early phases and really commits ones's whole life to becoming a sage, then it is very easy to start wavering at this point and fall away.
To keep your mind pointed towards Truth and continue to push ahead through those darker times, even when you can no longer see the reason for doing so, is a necessary ingredient for spiritual success. This is faith. Without it, one cannot lay down the platform for the sagely life.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr>If one doesn't plant deep spiritual roots in the early phases and really commits ones's whole life to becoming a sage, then it is very easy to start wavering at this point and fall away. <hr>
Uncompromising, I see. Isn't there more than one way to sagehood? Can things be learned from compromises? Edited by: mookestink at: 6/10/05 20:11
Uncompromising, I see. Isn't there more than one way to sagehood? Can things be learned from compromises? Edited by: mookestink at: 6/10/05 20:11
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
How many different ways are there to walk from A to B?
None, if you dither.
There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy. If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.
None, if you dither.
There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy. If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.
Re: Choosing a single path
David to Autum,
Quote:Quote:<hr>Your reasoning here is impeccable. It's true there is no objective basis for choosing the path of truth over any other path. Such a choice will always be subjective in nature.<hr> Right, agreed.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.<hr> Nevertheless, it still remains subjective, right?
David wrote, after a while.
Quote:Quote:<hr>There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy.<hr> But how could your personal opinion apply to others when you claim that it is the only path? Especially when you have stated above that there is no objective basis for your choice.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.<hr> Surely you have a personal definition of 'sagehood', which you personally value. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but what makes you think it applies to all others?
mookestink wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.<hr>
David, listen and learn my friend. He is already living the 'everything is perfect as it is' Truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Your reasoning here is impeccable. It's true there is no objective basis for choosing the path of truth over any other path. Such a choice will always be subjective in nature.<hr> Right, agreed.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.<hr> Nevertheless, it still remains subjective, right?
David wrote, after a while.
Quote:Quote:<hr>There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy.<hr> But how could your personal opinion apply to others when you claim that it is the only path? Especially when you have stated above that there is no objective basis for your choice.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.<hr> Surely you have a personal definition of 'sagehood', which you personally value. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but what makes you think it applies to all others?
mookestink wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.<hr>
David, listen and learn my friend. He is already living the 'everything is perfect as it is' Truth.
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creativegal
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Re: blah
Mookestink
I see you are a writer, by all means continue your journals. One day you'll be published providing you send your work in.
You're an original, originality sells, original ideas that is. I don't know if your man or woman all I know is you've got writing ability.
Donna Thompson
Edited by: creativegal at: 7/3/05 9:58
I see you are a writer, by all means continue your journals. One day you'll be published providing you send your work in.
You're an original, originality sells, original ideas that is. I don't know if your man or woman all I know is you've got writing ability.
Donna Thompson
Edited by: creativegal at: 7/3/05 9:58
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Dan Rowden
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Re: blah
Donna, can you edit your post and get rid of the huge space underneath.
Thanks.
Dan Rowden
Thanks.
Dan Rowden
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.
S: Nevertheless, it still remains subjective, right? <hr> Valuing is necessarily subjective, yes - even if it means valuing the objective truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy.
S: But how could your personal opinion apply to others when you claim that it is the only path? Especially when you have stated above that there is no objective basis for your choice. <hr> My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.
S: Surely you have a personal definition of 'sagehood', which you personally value. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but what makes you think it applies to all others? <hr> See above.
Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth, it is necessarily the case that people have to strive for sagehood in order to become aware of Truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr>mookestink wrote:
I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.
S: David, listen and learn my friend. He is already living the 'everything is perfect as it is' Truth. <hr> Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.
It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: If a person's unbringing and genes cause a person to value truth (and thus to exerience real suffering from being ignorant), then he will naturally value truth.
S: Nevertheless, it still remains subjective, right? <hr> Valuing is necessarily subjective, yes - even if it means valuing the objective truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of abandoning all delusions, including the ones that make our egos comfortable and happy.
S: But how could your personal opinion apply to others when you claim that it is the only path? Especially when you have stated above that there is no objective basis for your choice. <hr> My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: If this fundamental process is not followed through to the very end, then it won't matter how many different paths we decide to pursue. None of them will end up in sagehood.
S: Surely you have a personal definition of 'sagehood', which you personally value. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but what makes you think it applies to all others? <hr> See above.
Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth, it is necessarily the case that people have to strive for sagehood in order to become aware of Truth.
Quote:Quote:<hr>mookestink wrote:
I'm bored of truth. Once you have touched it, everything else is a puppet play. I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.
S: David, listen and learn my friend. He is already living the 'everything is perfect as it is' Truth. <hr> Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.
It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.
Re: Choosing a single path
David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.<hr> ....and how does this personal opinion turn into an objective truth?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth,<hr> You have yet to prove, be it philosophically, how this is objectively true.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.<hr>
Because unlike you, the poor chap still remains a human, he does not suddenly become a GOD. Cause and effect does not stop, so how can the mind. BTW, It is not so wise to strive for "perfection" within a Perfectly Perfect System, you can keep trying though, and that is the best one can do, for only the Totality can be perfect in the real sense, othere wise, it is a false ego that actually yearns for "perfection".
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.<hr>
May be, who doesn't seem to be working at it all the time, but I see it differently, since I believe that in his own way, may be unintentionally, he has realized that things are perfect as they are, and hence what remains is... as he put it..... ¡§I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.¡¨ This has yet to reflect in your thinking if you really understand how perfect All That There Is IS.
It is the act of discussing which is perfect, not the discussion itself. It is life that is perfect, not how you live it.
Quote:Quote:<hr>My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.<hr> ....and how does this personal opinion turn into an objective truth?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth,<hr> You have yet to prove, be it philosophically, how this is objectively true.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.<hr>
Because unlike you, the poor chap still remains a human, he does not suddenly become a GOD. Cause and effect does not stop, so how can the mind. BTW, It is not so wise to strive for "perfection" within a Perfectly Perfect System, you can keep trying though, and that is the best one can do, for only the Totality can be perfect in the real sense, othere wise, it is a false ego that actually yearns for "perfection".
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.<hr>
May be, who doesn't seem to be working at it all the time, but I see it differently, since I believe that in his own way, may be unintentionally, he has realized that things are perfect as they are, and hence what remains is... as he put it..... ¡§I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.¡¨ This has yet to reflect in your thinking if you really understand how perfect All That There Is IS.
It is the act of discussing which is perfect, not the discussion itself. It is life that is perfect, not how you live it.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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wow.
Sapius, you're making me blush.
I don't know if what I do is wise, but I enjoy myself. I'll let you boys figure out the value of it.
David: I don't strive for perfection. I strive to grow as an individual, and become better than I am. You judge too hastily: who's to say that boredom has no value? I remember reading that boredom is necessary for the development of a child's creativity -- and what's good for a child is often good for an adult. Oftentimes, my behaviour when I'm bored inspires me to try something new with the serious things in my life.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.<hr>
That is correct.
I'm having a hard time arguing against Sapius, though. I'll try anyway.
I do have good reasons for acting the way I act. I, for lack of a better term, "roleplay" whatever truths I discover. If something convinces me, it affects the way I behave. I can't understand an abstract concept until I live it. For instance, the "Perfect The Way it Is" strikes a pleasant, familiar chord.
To be contrary and perhaps a bit more precise, I would say that I believe that everything is 'imperfect the way it is' -- and that imperfection is its beauty. If beauty is perfection, then what Sapius says is true to my beliefs... but I'm not positive that perfection is certain to be beautiful. Regardless, the world's not a math test. I'm not so sure I'd even be able to recognize perfection in such a vacuously abstract context.
Okay, okay. An argument is taking shape (pardon my babbling):
A true answer is likely to be perfectly correct, and hence perfect by definition. Thinking about something is likely to change the thinkers' behaviour (remember what I said about roleplaying). So does it follow that thinking about truth will make someone perfect? Hmmm... I'd need a bit more convincing before I'd accept this argument. It feels like it's missing something. (And even if it were a valid argument and this person somehow did achieve perfection, I am not certain that they would be beautiful.) Edited by: mookestink at: 6/14/05 23:05
I don't know if what I do is wise, but I enjoy myself. I'll let you boys figure out the value of it.
David: I don't strive for perfection. I strive to grow as an individual, and become better than I am. You judge too hastily: who's to say that boredom has no value? I remember reading that boredom is necessary for the development of a child's creativity -- and what's good for a child is often good for an adult. Oftentimes, my behaviour when I'm bored inspires me to try something new with the serious things in my life.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's my impression that he is still trying to work it all out.<hr>
That is correct.
I'm having a hard time arguing against Sapius, though. I'll try anyway.
I do have good reasons for acting the way I act. I, for lack of a better term, "roleplay" whatever truths I discover. If something convinces me, it affects the way I behave. I can't understand an abstract concept until I live it. For instance, the "Perfect The Way it Is" strikes a pleasant, familiar chord.
To be contrary and perhaps a bit more precise, I would say that I believe that everything is 'imperfect the way it is' -- and that imperfection is its beauty. If beauty is perfection, then what Sapius says is true to my beliefs... but I'm not positive that perfection is certain to be beautiful. Regardless, the world's not a math test. I'm not so sure I'd even be able to recognize perfection in such a vacuously abstract context.
Okay, okay. An argument is taking shape (pardon my babbling):
A true answer is likely to be perfectly correct, and hence perfect by definition. Thinking about something is likely to change the thinkers' behaviour (remember what I said about roleplaying). So does it follow that thinking about truth will make someone perfect? Hmmm... I'd need a bit more convincing before I'd accept this argument. It feels like it's missing something. (And even if it were a valid argument and this person somehow did achieve perfection, I am not certain that they would be beautiful.) Edited by: mookestink at: 6/14/05 23:05
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David Quinn
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Re: wow.
Mookestink wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>I don't strive for perfection. I strive to grow as an individual, and become better than I am. You judge too hastily: who's to say that boredom has no value? I remember reading that boredom is necessary for the development of a child's creativity -- and what's good for a child is often good for an adult. Oftentimes, my behaviour when I'm bored inspires me to try something new with the serious things in my life. <hr> Sure, but that's a different issue. Sapius was trying to say that you had reached a state of perfection and I simply pointed out that the experience of boredom is not consistent with this. Being bored signals that one is finding Reality lacking to some extent, which means that one still has some ego and has lost sight of the nature of Reality.
Having said that, I agree with you that boredom can be an important spur to a thinker's development. It is important to be able to sit down without distraction and throw oneself into the mental process of trying to comprehend things.
Quote:Quote:<hr> To be contrary and perhaps a bit more precise, I would say that I believe that everything is 'imperfect the way it is' -- and that imperfection is its beauty. If beauty is perfection, then what Sapius says is true to my beliefs... but I'm not positive that perfection is certain to be beautiful. <hr> In my view, everything is perfect and beautiful because everything is a manifestation of Nature. Even the warts on a person's face and the stammerings in his voice and the stools he produces in the toilet are perfect manifestations of Nature and wholly beautiful because of it. So too is the misery and carnage of genocidal terrorism, the pandemic outbreak of a viralent disease, and the swallowing up of stars and planets by a blackhole. All of it is Nature's perfection and wholly beautiful.
Imperfection means not having the ability to experience this perfection and beauty in every moment of the day.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Regardless, the world's not a math test. I'm not so sure I'd even be able to recognize perfection in such a vacuously abstract context. <hr> You don't appreciate the significance of causality? That everything is causally created and therefore a part of Nature's perfection?
Quote:Quote:<hr> A true answer is likely to be perfectly correct, and hence perfect by definition. Thinking about something is likely to change the thinkers' behaviour (remember what I said about roleplaying). So does it follow that thinking about truth will make someone perfect? <hr> It will if a person allows the Truth that he has discovered through thinking to permeate every aspect of his existence. The philosophic path to perfection is twofold - firstly, reasoning oneself into the ultimate understanding and, secondly, changing every aspect of one's existence to conform with this ultimate understanding. The first is relatively easy, while the second is an immense challenge.
Quote:Quote:<hr>I don't strive for perfection. I strive to grow as an individual, and become better than I am. You judge too hastily: who's to say that boredom has no value? I remember reading that boredom is necessary for the development of a child's creativity -- and what's good for a child is often good for an adult. Oftentimes, my behaviour when I'm bored inspires me to try something new with the serious things in my life. <hr> Sure, but that's a different issue. Sapius was trying to say that you had reached a state of perfection and I simply pointed out that the experience of boredom is not consistent with this. Being bored signals that one is finding Reality lacking to some extent, which means that one still has some ego and has lost sight of the nature of Reality.
Having said that, I agree with you that boredom can be an important spur to a thinker's development. It is important to be able to sit down without distraction and throw oneself into the mental process of trying to comprehend things.
Quote:Quote:<hr> To be contrary and perhaps a bit more precise, I would say that I believe that everything is 'imperfect the way it is' -- and that imperfection is its beauty. If beauty is perfection, then what Sapius says is true to my beliefs... but I'm not positive that perfection is certain to be beautiful. <hr> In my view, everything is perfect and beautiful because everything is a manifestation of Nature. Even the warts on a person's face and the stammerings in his voice and the stools he produces in the toilet are perfect manifestations of Nature and wholly beautiful because of it. So too is the misery and carnage of genocidal terrorism, the pandemic outbreak of a viralent disease, and the swallowing up of stars and planets by a blackhole. All of it is Nature's perfection and wholly beautiful.
Imperfection means not having the ability to experience this perfection and beauty in every moment of the day.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Regardless, the world's not a math test. I'm not so sure I'd even be able to recognize perfection in such a vacuously abstract context. <hr> You don't appreciate the significance of causality? That everything is causally created and therefore a part of Nature's perfection?
Quote:Quote:<hr> A true answer is likely to be perfectly correct, and hence perfect by definition. Thinking about something is likely to change the thinkers' behaviour (remember what I said about roleplaying). So does it follow that thinking about truth will make someone perfect? <hr> It will if a person allows the Truth that he has discovered through thinking to permeate every aspect of his existence. The philosophic path to perfection is twofold - firstly, reasoning oneself into the ultimate understanding and, secondly, changing every aspect of one's existence to conform with this ultimate understanding. The first is relatively easy, while the second is an immense challenge.
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David Quinn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>DQ: My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.
S: ....and how does this personal opinion turn into an objective truth?<hr> It turns into an objective truth the moment it accurately reflects the objective truth.
For example, the personal opinion that Reality is not nothing whatsoever accurately reflects the objective truth that Reality is not nothing whatsoever.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth,
S: You have yet to prove, be it philosophically, how this is objectively true. <hr> You've got to be kidding, Sapius.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.
S: Because unlike you, the poor chap still remains a human, he does not suddenly become a GOD. Cause and effect does not stop, so how can the mind. <hr> A sage's mind also never stops. At the same time, it never flows into states of boredom.
Quote:Quote:<hr> BTW, It is not so wise to strive for "perfection" within a Perfectly Perfect System, you can keep trying though, and that is the best one can do, for only the Totality can be perfect in the real sense, othere wise, it is a false ego that actually yearns for "perfection". <hr> I agree that striving for perfection is egotistical and a sign of imperfection. However, it is the one form of egotism that can lead to the perfection of Buddahood.
Quote:Quote:<hr>May be, who doesn't seem to be working at it all the time, but I see it differently, since I believe that in his own way, may be unintentionally, he has realized that things are perfect as they are, and hence what remains is... as he put it..... ¡§I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.¡¨ This has yet to reflect in your thinking if you really understand how perfect All That There Is IS.
It is the act of discussing which is perfect, not the discussion itself. It is life that is perfect, not how you live it.<hr> If that is the case, then why are you taking issue with my behaviour? Your thinking on this issue still lacks consistency.
Quote:Quote:<hr>DQ: My personal opinion applies to others the moment it reflects the objective truth.
S: ....and how does this personal opinion turn into an objective truth?<hr> It turns into an objective truth the moment it accurately reflects the objective truth.
For example, the personal opinion that Reality is not nothing whatsoever accurately reflects the objective truth that Reality is not nothing whatsoever.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Since it is objectively true that only a sage (i.e. a person who is without delusion) can be aware of Truth,
S: You have yet to prove, be it philosophically, how this is objectively true. <hr> You've got to be kidding, Sapius.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Then why is he bored of it? Being bored is an imperfection.
S: Because unlike you, the poor chap still remains a human, he does not suddenly become a GOD. Cause and effect does not stop, so how can the mind. <hr> A sage's mind also never stops. At the same time, it never flows into states of boredom.
Quote:Quote:<hr> BTW, It is not so wise to strive for "perfection" within a Perfectly Perfect System, you can keep trying though, and that is the best one can do, for only the Totality can be perfect in the real sense, othere wise, it is a false ego that actually yearns for "perfection". <hr> I agree that striving for perfection is egotistical and a sign of imperfection. However, it is the one form of egotism that can lead to the perfection of Buddahood.
Quote:Quote:<hr>May be, who doesn't seem to be working at it all the time, but I see it differently, since I believe that in his own way, may be unintentionally, he has realized that things are perfect as they are, and hence what remains is... as he put it..... ¡§I've trained myself to enjoy the spectacle, and participate in my own stilted way.¡¨ This has yet to reflect in your thinking if you really understand how perfect All That There Is IS.
It is the act of discussing which is perfect, not the discussion itself. It is life that is perfect, not how you live it.<hr> If that is the case, then why are you taking issue with my behaviour? Your thinking on this issue still lacks consistency.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Choosing a single path
Quote:Quote:<hr>The philosophic path to perfection is twofold - firstly, reasoning oneself into the ultimate understanding and, secondly, changing every aspect of one's existence to conform with this ultimate understanding.<hr>
Oh, I see what you are saying, and I can really see where my subjectivism was lacking. It's true that any path a person takes in life is perfect and beautiful, but some paths are objectively better at achieving specific goals. Once one makes the decision as to what the best type of person is, it is stupid to strive after anything else.
I'm not convinced, however, that the best type of person would know perfection and beauty at every moment of every day. I believe that he would be a happy person -- but is happiness truly the epitome of human greatness?
Oh, I see what you are saying, and I can really see where my subjectivism was lacking. It's true that any path a person takes in life is perfect and beautiful, but some paths are objectively better at achieving specific goals. Once one makes the decision as to what the best type of person is, it is stupid to strive after anything else.
I'm not convinced, however, that the best type of person would know perfection and beauty at every moment of every day. I believe that he would be a happy person -- but is happiness truly the epitome of human greatness?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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- Location: Canada
Re: Choosing a single path
Ah, I give myself away! I do not seek happiness, but greatness. But in admitting this much, I suddenly understand that I do not have an intelligent way of striving after greatness, nor any way to measure greatness. My way of life makes sense in this context: in knowing that I cannot strive after what I most want, I unlearned how to strive.
The consequence of once having limitless greed is that I now have no greed -- not even greed for happiness. I could call this 'greatness' or 'enlightenment' to satisfy my ego, but why? I call it 'myself' and am just as satisfied.
The consequence of once having limitless greed is that I now have no greed -- not even greed for happiness. I could call this 'greatness' or 'enlightenment' to satisfy my ego, but why? I call it 'myself' and am just as satisfied.