David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>There is no real point in abandoning the world and living the life of a hermit if one's mind is still being buffeted about by delusion.
To me, the only genuine form of asceticism is the mind dwelling in emptiness. By undercutting existence at its root, one is permanently beyond all things - even if one is fully immersed in the day-to-day running of the world.<hr>
WOW! Is that possible?? David? I cannot believe you saying that!
Of course, there will be certain degrees of level one has to apply to the "day-to-day running", correct?
Asceticism
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Leyla Shen
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Re: Asceticism
Quote:Quote:<hr>To allow contradictory values to continue, because of the stimulus to be truthful, is actually illogical and an act of egotism, because it wants to hold something back and to deny that Ultimate Truth is everything.<hr>
That's one of the reaons I love Shakespeare: to be, or not to be; that is the question.
Quote:Quote:<hr>You can either leave the numbers 210 off, or not. They remind me of the process of understanding the infinite.<hr>
As in the following representation: 2 - duality; 1 - singularity; 0 - infinity?
Quite a fine dinstinguishing mark. I think I may just call you "210" from now on.
Edit: interestingly, if you reverse that, you get 012: the process of understanding reality -- part of Tumbleman's whatever-he-calls-it. Edited by: Leyla Shen at: 6/13/05 18:10
That's one of the reaons I love Shakespeare: to be, or not to be; that is the question.
Quote:Quote:<hr>You can either leave the numbers 210 off, or not. They remind me of the process of understanding the infinite.<hr>
As in the following representation: 2 - duality; 1 - singularity; 0 - infinity?
Quite a fine dinstinguishing mark. I think I may just call you "210" from now on.
Edit: interestingly, if you reverse that, you get 012: the process of understanding reality -- part of Tumbleman's whatever-he-calls-it. Edited by: Leyla Shen at: 6/13/05 18:10
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Diebert van Rhijn
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210
On the topic of number theory in philosophical sense I'm with Pythagoras in using natural numbers to portray something about the fundamentals of reality:
1 monad - unity: the generator (A=A?)
2 dyad - diversity: female number
3 triad - harmony (unity plus diversity): male number
Using zero as a pointer to emptiness, mystery or even infinity I find debatable or confusing at the very least. It basically signifies 'lack'.
Edited by: Diebert van Rhijn at: 6/14/05 1:11
1 monad - unity: the generator (A=A?)
2 dyad - diversity: female number
3 triad - harmony (unity plus diversity): male number
Using zero as a pointer to emptiness, mystery or even infinity I find debatable or confusing at the very least. It basically signifies 'lack'.
Edited by: Diebert van Rhijn at: 6/14/05 1:11
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David Quinn
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Re: Asceticism
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: There is no real point in abandoning the world and living the life of a hermit if one's mind is still being buffeted about by delusion.
To me, the only genuine form of asceticism is the mind dwelling in emptiness. By undercutting existence at its root, one is permanently beyond all things - even if one is fully immersed in the day-to-day running of the world.
Sapius: WOW! Is that possible?? David? I cannot believe you saying that!
Of course, there will be certain degrees of level one has to apply to the "day-to-day running", correct? <hr> Yes, I don't mean that a sage would lead a conventional, worldly existence. His involvement in the world would be strictly spiritual and Zennish. It would be largely free of habits and attachments and focused purely upon the spiritual awakening of others.
My point above was that avoiding the world altogether and living a spartan existence is of little use if you do not clean your mind of all false concerns and thoughts.
--
From "Zarathustra's Return"
by Hermann Hess
- My friends, you ask after the school of suffering, the forge of destiny. Don't
you know? No, you who are forever talking of "the people" and such like, you
do not know. I am speaking of solitude.
Solitude is the path men most fear, so that those men who walk alone are
called mad or sick, because they think it is best to discourage themselves from
taking such a path.
And when you hear people call these men mad, don't you feel the blood
rushing to your cheeks? As though it might have been nobler and worthier of
you to become one of those madmen?
- Most men, the herd, have never tasted solitude. They leave father and
mother, but only to crawl to a wife and quietly succumb to new warmth and
new ties. They are never alone, they never commune with themselves.
They fear the solitary man and hate him like the plague; they fling stones at
him and find no place until they are far away from him. The air around him
smells of stars, of cold stellar places; he lacks the soft warm fragrance of the
home and hatchery. Zarathustra has gone a long way on the path of solitude.
He has attended the school of suffering.
- But how, my young friends, could I tempt or lead you? Solitude is not
chosen, any more than destiny is chosen. Solitude comes to us if we have
within us the magic stone that attracts destiny. Many, far too many, have gone
out into the desert and led the lives of "herd men" in a pretty hermitage beside
a lovely spring. While others stand in the thick of the crowd, and yet the air of
the stars blows round their heads. Blessed be he who has found solitude.
Blessed be he who knows how to suffer!
--
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: There is no real point in abandoning the world and living the life of a hermit if one's mind is still being buffeted about by delusion.
To me, the only genuine form of asceticism is the mind dwelling in emptiness. By undercutting existence at its root, one is permanently beyond all things - even if one is fully immersed in the day-to-day running of the world.
Sapius: WOW! Is that possible?? David? I cannot believe you saying that!
Of course, there will be certain degrees of level one has to apply to the "day-to-day running", correct? <hr> Yes, I don't mean that a sage would lead a conventional, worldly existence. His involvement in the world would be strictly spiritual and Zennish. It would be largely free of habits and attachments and focused purely upon the spiritual awakening of others.
My point above was that avoiding the world altogether and living a spartan existence is of little use if you do not clean your mind of all false concerns and thoughts.
--
From "Zarathustra's Return"
by Hermann Hess
- My friends, you ask after the school of suffering, the forge of destiny. Don't
you know? No, you who are forever talking of "the people" and such like, you
do not know. I am speaking of solitude.
Solitude is the path men most fear, so that those men who walk alone are
called mad or sick, because they think it is best to discourage themselves from
taking such a path.
And when you hear people call these men mad, don't you feel the blood
rushing to your cheeks? As though it might have been nobler and worthier of
you to become one of those madmen?
- Most men, the herd, have never tasted solitude. They leave father and
mother, but only to crawl to a wife and quietly succumb to new warmth and
new ties. They are never alone, they never commune with themselves.
They fear the solitary man and hate him like the plague; they fling stones at
him and find no place until they are far away from him. The air around him
smells of stars, of cold stellar places; he lacks the soft warm fragrance of the
home and hatchery. Zarathustra has gone a long way on the path of solitude.
He has attended the school of suffering.
- But how, my young friends, could I tempt or lead you? Solitude is not
chosen, any more than destiny is chosen. Solitude comes to us if we have
within us the magic stone that attracts destiny. Many, far too many, have gone
out into the desert and led the lives of "herd men" in a pretty hermitage beside
a lovely spring. While others stand in the thick of the crowd, and yet the air of
the stars blows round their heads. Blessed be he who has found solitude.
Blessed be he who knows how to suffer!
--
Re: Asceticism
David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>My point above was that avoiding the world altogether and living a spartan existence is of little use if you do not clean your mind of all false concerns and thoughts.<hr> Agreed.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It would be largely free of habits and attachments and focused purely upon the spiritual awakening of others.<hr>
Sure, if I like a certain drink I would usually offer it to others to share my bliss, it is a natural reaction of the ego, I mean the "I", but would not the awakening of a single person give him some sort of satisfaction, sense of contentment, achievement, and can I dare say, even make him a bit happy?
Quote:Quote:<hr>My point above was that avoiding the world altogether and living a spartan existence is of little use if you do not clean your mind of all false concerns and thoughts.<hr> Agreed.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It would be largely free of habits and attachments and focused purely upon the spiritual awakening of others.<hr>
Sure, if I like a certain drink I would usually offer it to others to share my bliss, it is a natural reaction of the ego, I mean the "I", but would not the awakening of a single person give him some sort of satisfaction, sense of contentment, achievement, and can I dare say, even make him a bit happy?
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David Quinn
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Re: Asceticism
Not if he was an experienced sage.
Re: Asceticism
So basically he gains nothing. is that it?
So why would he want others spiritual awakening?
So why would he want others spiritual awakening?
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Leyla Shen
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Re: 210
Quote:Quote:<hr>Using zero as a pointer to emptiness, mystery or even infinity I find debatable or confusing at the very least. It basically signifies 'lack'.<hr>
The confusion is not caused by the use of the symbol zero, but by a misapplied definition. I think zero is a good symbol for either emptiness or infinity. I do not believe in mystery; in the same way that I do not believe in the supernatural. Hence, I would hesitate in using any number to represent it. Instead, I would use a "?".
One does not understand by knowing symbols -- or telepathy. One understands by knowing ideas, and uses symbols as a means to communicate or be communicated to.
If I simply put a "0" on this screen and said nothing more, what does it represent?
Using numbers (or any other symbol, as a matter of fact) to represent ideas is debatable, or confusing at the very least, by the same reasoning.
The confusion is not caused by the use of the symbol zero, but by a misapplied definition. I think zero is a good symbol for either emptiness or infinity. I do not believe in mystery; in the same way that I do not believe in the supernatural. Hence, I would hesitate in using any number to represent it. Instead, I would use a "?".
One does not understand by knowing symbols -- or telepathy. One understands by knowing ideas, and uses symbols as a means to communicate or be communicated to.
If I simply put a "0" on this screen and said nothing more, what does it represent?
Using numbers (or any other symbol, as a matter of fact) to represent ideas is debatable, or confusing at the very least, by the same reasoning.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: 210
Leyla,Quote:Quote:<hr>Using numbers (or any other symbol, as a matter of fact) to represent ideas is debatable, or confusing at the very least, by the same reasoning<hr>
The debate would always be about what the best number, symbol, phrase, analogy or parable is in a certain context. At some point you need to make a distinction between that is in general leading to more delusion and what might help leading out of it. So...
Quote:Quote:<hr>I think zero is a good symbol for either emptiness or infinity<hr>
Why would you think that if emptiness is directly related to the totality of existence? Zero is used to portray a lack, at least in common use. Once could argue about 'no-form' being related to a lack of form (zero form). But the no-form of a zero must not be confused with the no-form of for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers. This is why I think the number zero should not be used as it could lead to mindlessness instead of 'no mind'. Edited by: Diebert van Rhijn at: 6/17/05 0:37
The debate would always be about what the best number, symbol, phrase, analogy or parable is in a certain context. At some point you need to make a distinction between that is in general leading to more delusion and what might help leading out of it. So...
Quote:Quote:<hr>I think zero is a good symbol for either emptiness or infinity<hr>
Why would you think that if emptiness is directly related to the totality of existence? Zero is used to portray a lack, at least in common use. Once could argue about 'no-form' being related to a lack of form (zero form). But the no-form of a zero must not be confused with the no-form of for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers. This is why I think the number zero should not be used as it could lead to mindlessness instead of 'no mind'. Edited by: Diebert van Rhijn at: 6/17/05 0:37
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Leyla Shen
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000
Quote:Quote:<hr>The debate would always be about what the best number, symbol, phrase, analogy or parable is in a certain context. At some point you need to make a distinction between that is in general leading to more delusion and what might help leading out of it.<hr>
Yes.
Quote:Quote:<hr>So...
Why would you think that if emptiness is directly related to the totality of existence? Zero is used to portray a lack, at least in common use.<hr>
Well, this is certainly true. $2 - $2 = $0. However, in the context of our discussion -- and your 1, 2, 3 representation above -- one would have to intuit emptiness. If you are to assign a number to certain factors, why is the one factor permeating them all not worthy of any representation? How does that lead to less delusion?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Once could argue about 'no-form' being related to a lack of form (zero form). But the no-form of a zero must not be confused with the no-form of for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers.<hr>
I have no definition for rational and irrational numbers. Care to elaborate?
Quote:Quote:<hr>This is why I think the number zero should not be used as it could lead to mindlessness instead of 'no mind'.<hr>
That would be a problem.
Yes.
Quote:Quote:<hr>So...
Why would you think that if emptiness is directly related to the totality of existence? Zero is used to portray a lack, at least in common use.<hr>
Well, this is certainly true. $2 - $2 = $0. However, in the context of our discussion -- and your 1, 2, 3 representation above -- one would have to intuit emptiness. If you are to assign a number to certain factors, why is the one factor permeating them all not worthy of any representation? How does that lead to less delusion?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Once could argue about 'no-form' being related to a lack of form (zero form). But the no-form of a zero must not be confused with the no-form of for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers.<hr>
I have no definition for rational and irrational numbers. Care to elaborate?
Quote:Quote:<hr>This is why I think the number zero should not be used as it could lead to mindlessness instead of 'no mind'.<hr>
That would be a problem.
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David Quinn
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Re: Asceticism
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> Sap: Sure, if I like a certain drink I would usually offer it to others to share my bliss, it is a natural reaction of the ego, I mean the "I", but would not the awakening of a single person give him some sort of satisfaction, sense of contentment, achievement, and can I dare say, even make him a bit happy?
DQ: Not if he was an experienced sage.
Sap: So basically he gains nothing. is that it? <hr> Nothing whatsoever.
Quote:Quote:<hr> So why would he want others spiritual awakening? <hr> Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Sap: Sure, if I like a certain drink I would usually offer it to others to share my bliss, it is a natural reaction of the ego, I mean the "I", but would not the awakening of a single person give him some sort of satisfaction, sense of contentment, achievement, and can I dare say, even make him a bit happy?
DQ: Not if he was an experienced sage.
Sap: So basically he gains nothing. is that it? <hr> Nothing whatsoever.
Quote:Quote:<hr> So why would he want others spiritual awakening? <hr> Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.
Re: Asceticism
Quote:Quote:<hr>Sapius: So why would he want others spiritual awakening? If he gains nothing whatsoever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David: Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.<hr>
Well, I don't know if you could equate a physical phenomenon to a thought process, but I take it there is really no difference due to slavery to cause and effect, and it is the same as asking why Jack the ripper did what he did? or Hitler did what he did? I understand, they are not to be blamed, nor any credit given to you for anything at all, since it is in the nature after all. BTW, why does your book say 'Copyright David Quinn 2003'. Do you think you should be responsible for what you say? Oops! what a silly question, of course, that too is in your nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David: Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.<hr>
Well, I don't know if you could equate a physical phenomenon to a thought process, but I take it there is really no difference due to slavery to cause and effect, and it is the same as asking why Jack the ripper did what he did? or Hitler did what he did? I understand, they are not to be blamed, nor any credit given to you for anything at all, since it is in the nature after all. BTW, why does your book say 'Copyright David Quinn 2003'. Do you think you should be responsible for what you say? Oops! what a silly question, of course, that too is in your nature.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: 000
Leyla,Quote:Quote:<hr>why is the one factor permeating them all not worthy of any representation? <hr>
Did I imply somewhere it was not worthy of any representation? If we can represent it in English language somehow, we might as well try it with numbers on occasion. Why for example you wouldn't use '1', as you used it yourself with: 'the one factor'? This number relates to unity way better. Any thoughts on that?
Quote:Quote:<hr>for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers.<hr>
With this I meant the mathematical concept of a collection containing an infinite amount of possible numbers. The different sets in mathematics have symbols to represent them. The first set as commonly defined are the natural (counting) numbers and doesn't contain zero. The set called 'whole numbers' contains the set of natural numbers and zero. So further progresses the evolution of sets, including more and more types of numbers.
Since mathematics is just another formal language with its rules and its history, I think there's a good reason to exclude zero from any useful metaphysical use, just like negative numbers. There are better choices available, though numbers remain way too abstract to describe reality in a helpfull way in most situations.
Did I imply somewhere it was not worthy of any representation? If we can represent it in English language somehow, we might as well try it with numbers on occasion. Why for example you wouldn't use '1', as you used it yourself with: 'the one factor'? This number relates to unity way better. Any thoughts on that?
Quote:Quote:<hr>for example a set containing all rational and irrational numbers.<hr>
With this I meant the mathematical concept of a collection containing an infinite amount of possible numbers. The different sets in mathematics have symbols to represent them. The first set as commonly defined are the natural (counting) numbers and doesn't contain zero. The set called 'whole numbers' contains the set of natural numbers and zero. So further progresses the evolution of sets, including more and more types of numbers.
Since mathematics is just another formal language with its rules and its history, I think there's a good reason to exclude zero from any useful metaphysical use, just like negative numbers. There are better choices available, though numbers remain way too abstract to describe reality in a helpfull way in most situations.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: 000
Quote:Quote:<hr>Did I imply somewhere it was not worthy of any representation?<hr>
In your 1, 2, 3 representation of reality, I reckon it is implicit by default, which is why I said one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity. One would already have to know the idea to understand its relationship.
What better way to portray a lack than to leave something out altogether? Let’s not forget the stated purpose: a method that leads to less delusion.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If we can represent it in English language somehow, we might as well try it with numbers on occasion.<hr>
Sure. But this takes us back to our original disagreement. I do not think you have represented it.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why for example you wouldn't use '1', as you used it yourself with: 'the one factor'? This number relates to unity way better. Any thoughts on that?<hr>
I think you are being way too traditional. What matters is definition, and purpose -- and, as you said, context. The term “one†in the context that I used it qualifies emptiness as the single thing permeating all other factors. If you consider emptiness as underlying all factors you will see that. 1 (unity) does not permeate 2 (diversity), or three (harmony [unity plus diversity]).
0 - infinity
1 - unity
2 - diversity
3 - harmony (1 plus 2)
0 plus 1 plus 2 = 3
0 plus 1 = 1, et cetera
I think it’s perfect. Then again, my formal education stopped at year 11. I may not be privy to certain academic data that you are -- and am more than glad for you to share it with me.
Quote:Quote:<hr>There are better choices available, though numbers remain way too abstract to describe reality in a helpfull way in most situations.
Since mathematics is just another formal language with its rules and its history, I think there's a good reason to exclude zero from any useful metaphysical use, just like negative numbers.<hr>
Who, then, is this a problem for and how does it fit in with the idea of lessening delusion? English has its rules and history, too.
The basic definition of zero denotes an absence of quantity -- but not necessarily quality. What say you to that, Diebert?
In your 1, 2, 3 representation of reality, I reckon it is implicit by default, which is why I said one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity. One would already have to know the idea to understand its relationship.
What better way to portray a lack than to leave something out altogether? Let’s not forget the stated purpose: a method that leads to less delusion.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If we can represent it in English language somehow, we might as well try it with numbers on occasion.<hr>
Sure. But this takes us back to our original disagreement. I do not think you have represented it.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why for example you wouldn't use '1', as you used it yourself with: 'the one factor'? This number relates to unity way better. Any thoughts on that?<hr>
I think you are being way too traditional. What matters is definition, and purpose -- and, as you said, context. The term “one†in the context that I used it qualifies emptiness as the single thing permeating all other factors. If you consider emptiness as underlying all factors you will see that. 1 (unity) does not permeate 2 (diversity), or three (harmony [unity plus diversity]).
0 - infinity
1 - unity
2 - diversity
3 - harmony (1 plus 2)
0 plus 1 plus 2 = 3
0 plus 1 = 1, et cetera
I think it’s perfect. Then again, my formal education stopped at year 11. I may not be privy to certain academic data that you are -- and am more than glad for you to share it with me.
Quote:Quote:<hr>There are better choices available, though numbers remain way too abstract to describe reality in a helpfull way in most situations.
Since mathematics is just another formal language with its rules and its history, I think there's a good reason to exclude zero from any useful metaphysical use, just like negative numbers.<hr>
Who, then, is this a problem for and how does it fit in with the idea of lessening delusion? English has its rules and history, too.
The basic definition of zero denotes an absence of quantity -- but not necessarily quality. What say you to that, Diebert?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: 000
LeylaQuote:Quote:<hr>one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity<hr>
Why would it be intuitive to say a symbol for lack could represent infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?
Every number apart from zero is some part of unity. Even zero can be defined as being 1 minus 1, if needed, while you cannot create 1 or 2 from only 0, unless using way more complex calculations. From one you can split of a duality (2) and so on to irrational Pi. See further geometry to visualize this.
My problem with the quality of 0 is that is only seems to have existence, like the ego or the I sometimes has. The lack of something does not lead to a conclusion there's now something (the 'lack'). An empty cup does not contain emptiness.
Maybe zero could be effective to symbolize the hidden void, that what is beyond construction and consciousness, in some manner? Just an experimental thought.
Why would it be intuitive to say a symbol for lack could represent infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?
Every number apart from zero is some part of unity. Even zero can be defined as being 1 minus 1, if needed, while you cannot create 1 or 2 from only 0, unless using way more complex calculations. From one you can split of a duality (2) and so on to irrational Pi. See further geometry to visualize this.
My problem with the quality of 0 is that is only seems to have existence, like the ego or the I sometimes has. The lack of something does not lead to a conclusion there's now something (the 'lack'). An empty cup does not contain emptiness.
Maybe zero could be effective to symbolize the hidden void, that what is beyond construction and consciousness, in some manner? Just an experimental thought.
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David Quinn
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Re: Asceticism
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Sapius: So why would he want others spiritual awakening? If he gains nothing whatsoever.
David: Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.
Sapius: Well, I don't know if you could equate a physical phenomenon to a thought process, but I take it there is really no difference due to slavery to cause and effect, and it is the same as asking why Jack the ripper did what he did? or Hitler did what he did?<hr> It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over. Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.
Quote:Quote:<hr> BTW, why does your book say 'Copyright David Quinn 2003'. Do you think you should be responsible for what you say? Oops! what a silly question, of course, that too is in your nature. <hr> It's a good question. I find that I am in two minds about this issue. There are advantages and disadvantages, which ever way you go. What do you see as the problem with copyrighting it?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Sapius: So why would he want others spiritual awakening? If he gains nothing whatsoever.
David: Why does a cloud give rain? Why does a flame create heat? It's in the sage's nature to work for the enlightenment of others.
Sapius: Well, I don't know if you could equate a physical phenomenon to a thought process, but I take it there is really no difference due to slavery to cause and effect, and it is the same as asking why Jack the ripper did what he did? or Hitler did what he did?<hr> It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over. Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.
Quote:Quote:<hr> BTW, why does your book say 'Copyright David Quinn 2003'. Do you think you should be responsible for what you say? Oops! what a silly question, of course, that too is in your nature. <hr> It's a good question. I find that I am in two minds about this issue. There are advantages and disadvantages, which ever way you go. What do you see as the problem with copyrighting it?
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Asceticism
I think the only real benefit to a copyright notice in this situation is to dissuade the foolish from decimating, dissembling and disseminating another version and thereby using it irresponsibly.
Dan Rowden
Dan Rowden
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David Quinn
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Re: Asceticism
My thinking exactly. It helps keep the material connected to the author and his other works. This is important because it enables people to see a living personality behind the work.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: 000
Diebert, our conversation seems to be speeding off the rails at a dangerous rate.
:)
Somewhere in a galaxy not too far away...
Quote:Quote:<hr>Leyla: why is the one factor permeating them all not worthy of any representation?
Diebert: Did I imply somewhere it was not worthy of any representation?<hr>
I then said:
Quote:Quote:<hr>In your 1, 2, 3 representation of reality, I reckon it is implicit by default, which is why I said one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity. <hr>
You quoted me as follows:
Quote:Quote:<hr>one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity<hr>
Then asked:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why would it be intuitive to say a symbol for lack could represent infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?<hr>
Have I missed something? Edited by: Leyla Shen at: 6/22/05 23:58
:)
Somewhere in a galaxy not too far away...
Quote:Quote:<hr>Leyla: why is the one factor permeating them all not worthy of any representation?
Diebert: Did I imply somewhere it was not worthy of any representation?<hr>
I then said:
Quote:Quote:<hr>In your 1, 2, 3 representation of reality, I reckon it is implicit by default, which is why I said one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity. <hr>
You quoted me as follows:
Quote:Quote:<hr>one would have to intuit the idea of emptiness -- or infinity<hr>
Then asked:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why would it be intuitive to say a symbol for lack could represent infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?<hr>
Have I missed something? Edited by: Leyla Shen at: 6/22/05 23:58
Re: Asceticism
David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over.<hr>
I understand, but so were the all-consuming values of Hitler. The question is, which one does Reality "value"?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.<hr>
Personal, very personal, a wish that arises from the illusion of the "I", for he thinks and wants others to enjoy the Truth and Reality, which I am not against, only that he has to know that the "I", although inherently non-existent, operates as long as you are alive.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's a good question. I find that I am in two minds about this issue. There are advantages and disadvantages, which ever way you go. What do you see as the problem with copyrighting it?<hr>
No problems, only that it reflects the practical "I" at work, that¡¦s all what I want to point out.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Dan: I think the only real benefit to a copyright notice in this situation is to dissuade the foolish from decimating, dissembling and disseminating another version and thereby using it irresponsibly.
David: My thinking exactly. It helps keep the material connected to the author and his other works. This is important because it enables people to see a living personality behind the work.<hr>
Sure, after all even most religious books have gone through decimations, but it is the living personality I am talking about, the "I", which at no time does not not exist. So it comes down to that we have no other way of operating except working from an illusionary, non-inherently existent ¡§I¡¨.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over.<hr>
I understand, but so were the all-consuming values of Hitler. The question is, which one does Reality "value"?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.<hr>
Personal, very personal, a wish that arises from the illusion of the "I", for he thinks and wants others to enjoy the Truth and Reality, which I am not against, only that he has to know that the "I", although inherently non-existent, operates as long as you are alive.
Quote:Quote:<hr>It's a good question. I find that I am in two minds about this issue. There are advantages and disadvantages, which ever way you go. What do you see as the problem with copyrighting it?<hr>
No problems, only that it reflects the practical "I" at work, that¡¦s all what I want to point out.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Dan: I think the only real benefit to a copyright notice in this situation is to dissuade the foolish from decimating, dissembling and disseminating another version and thereby using it irresponsibly.
David: My thinking exactly. It helps keep the material connected to the author and his other works. This is important because it enables people to see a living personality behind the work.<hr>
Sure, after all even most religious books have gone through decimations, but it is the living personality I am talking about, the "I", which at no time does not not exist. So it comes down to that we have no other way of operating except working from an illusionary, non-inherently existent ¡§I¡¨.
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Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Re: 000
Hi LeylaQuote:Quote:<hr>Have I missed something?<hr>
I quoted your statement about intuiting the meaning behind the numbers since it seemed placed like an argument against my point or at least not reflecting it properly in my view. Then as reply on that I questioned if the use of an added zero would make it easier to 'intuite the idea of infinity'.
Indeed it can appear as if my reply implied you already talked about intuiting the zero. Better phrase would probably have been: "But would it be easier to intuit a symbol for lack ('0') supposedly representing infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?"
Again, if one ever had to choose a number for this, the symbol for unity '1' would suffice. Or perhaps the mathematical symbol for the total of 'real' numbers, R, for everything in existence.
I quoted your statement about intuiting the meaning behind the numbers since it seemed placed like an argument against my point or at least not reflecting it properly in my view. Then as reply on that I questioned if the use of an added zero would make it easier to 'intuite the idea of infinity'.
Indeed it can appear as if my reply implied you already talked about intuiting the zero. Better phrase would probably have been: "But would it be easier to intuit a symbol for lack ('0') supposedly representing infinity which is also totality, the Ultimate Reality?"
Again, if one ever had to choose a number for this, the symbol for unity '1' would suffice. Or perhaps the mathematical symbol for the total of 'real' numbers, R, for everything in existence.
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Leyla Shen
- Posts: 3851
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:12 pm
- Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA
Re: 000
Hiya, Diebert.
OK. I'll have to give this some more attention at home tonight. I'm sitting here at work in hysterics over the ABCs, at the moment.
OK. I'll have to give this some more attention at home tonight. I'm sitting here at work in hysterics over the ABCs, at the moment.
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David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Asceticism
Sapius wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over.
Sap: I understand, but so were the all-consuming values of Hitler. The question is, which one does Reality "value"? <hr> Why? What does that matter?
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.
Sap: Personal, very personal, a wish that arises from the illusion of the "I", for he thinks and wants others to enjoy the Truth and Reality, which I am not against, only that he has to know that the "I", although inherently non-existent, operates as long as you are alive. <hr> His brain and body continues to operate in a unified fashion, yes.
Edited by: DavidQuinn000 at: 6/23/05 22:20
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: It's more than that. The process of developing into a sage is a long and arduous one and requires total commitment from the particpant, which means that the valuing of wisdom needs to become all-consuming. When this happens, your whole life is completely taken over.
Sap: I understand, but so were the all-consuming values of Hitler. The question is, which one does Reality "value"? <hr> Why? What does that matter?
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Given this, it should be no surprise that the fully-developed sage spends every moment working for the cause of wisdom. It has become so ingrained in him that he doesn't even have to consider it.
Sap: Personal, very personal, a wish that arises from the illusion of the "I", for he thinks and wants others to enjoy the Truth and Reality, which I am not against, only that he has to know that the "I", although inherently non-existent, operates as long as you are alive. <hr> His brain and body continues to operate in a unified fashion, yes.
Edited by: DavidQuinn000 at: 6/23/05 22:20
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Leyla Shen
- Posts: 3851
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:12 pm
- Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA
Re: 000
Quote:Quote:<hr>KJ210: Because my name Kelly Jones is very common, i chose to add some numbers to differentiate it. You can either leave the numbers 210 off, or not. They remind me of the process of understanding the infinite.
DvR: On the topic of number theory in philosophical sense I'm with Pythagoras in using natural numbers to portray something about the fundamentals of reality:
1 monad - unity: the generator (A=A?)
2 dyad - diversity: female number
3 triad - harmony (unity plus diversity): male number
Using zero as a pointer to emptiness, mystery or even infinity I find debatable or confusing at the very least. It basically signifies 'lack'.<hr>
OK. Take two. I’m going right back to the beginning.
The discussion commenced with Kelly Jones’ statement above. My question to you now is this: what is the relationship between your number theory -- portraying something about the fundamentals of reality -- and the process of understanding the infinite?
DvR: On the topic of number theory in philosophical sense I'm with Pythagoras in using natural numbers to portray something about the fundamentals of reality:
1 monad - unity: the generator (A=A?)
2 dyad - diversity: female number
3 triad - harmony (unity plus diversity): male number
Using zero as a pointer to emptiness, mystery or even infinity I find debatable or confusing at the very least. It basically signifies 'lack'.<hr>
OK. Take two. I’m going right back to the beginning.
The discussion commenced with Kelly Jones’ statement above. My question to you now is this: what is the relationship between your number theory -- portraying something about the fundamentals of reality -- and the process of understanding the infinite?
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Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Re: 123
Leyla, Quote:Quote:<hr>My question to you now is this: what is the relationship between your number theory -- portraying something about the fundamentals of reality -- and the process of understanding the infinite?<hr>
Is there some difference between the infinite and the fundamentals of reality? Are you now introducing another kind of reality in the discussion, a limited or personal one? I thought it was clear we were talking absolutes. As for the relation between portraying, refering or communicating a principle and the process of understanding, that's a whole other barrel of fish.
Is there some difference between the infinite and the fundamentals of reality? Are you now introducing another kind of reality in the discussion, a limited or personal one? I thought it was clear we were talking absolutes. As for the relation between portraying, refering or communicating a principle and the process of understanding, that's a whole other barrel of fish.