Paradise Child wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>How can a tree that has grown by itself halfway up the side of a mountain join the forest in the valley?
I'm not accepted by the herd. I'm not acceptable. <hr> I thought you had a girlfriend?
Greatest thing of all
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Greatest thing of all
Leyla wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>If you are saying that I must abandon my children because it is impossible to attain the highest understanding of Reality whilst bearing such a demanding responsibility, my answer is, obviously, no.<hr> At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.
Quote:Quote:<hr>I reckon by specifying “a communal life of great emotional happiness,†you allude to the idea of an ultimate happiness to found at the end of the road to enlightenment. As you know, I take issue with the lack of clarity in such matters. Happiness is happiness --what’s the emotional difference between an enlightened and unenlightened happiness? A happiness derived from communal life, or one derived from truth? Personally, I think that road ends not with happiness, but with serenity.<hr>Yes, the enlightened person doesn't really experience emotional happiness as such. Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.
The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.
Quote:Quote:<hr>If you are saying that I must abandon my children because it is impossible to attain the highest understanding of Reality whilst bearing such a demanding responsibility, my answer is, obviously, no.<hr> At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.
Quote:Quote:<hr>I reckon by specifying “a communal life of great emotional happiness,†you allude to the idea of an ultimate happiness to found at the end of the road to enlightenment. As you know, I take issue with the lack of clarity in such matters. Happiness is happiness --what’s the emotional difference between an enlightened and unenlightened happiness? A happiness derived from communal life, or one derived from truth? Personally, I think that road ends not with happiness, but with serenity.<hr>Yes, the enlightened person doesn't really experience emotional happiness as such. Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.
The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.
-
ParadiseChild
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:56 am
Re: Greatest thing of all
David Quinn wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>I thought you had a girlfriend?<hr>
Quite true. So I'm not totally alone. Certain amount of companionship with her, but still, not part of any clan, Still up here on the mountain, half way up. Not seeing the clear view like you, and not snuggled in with lots of other furry bodies in the warren. Basically not what I hoped for, and surprisingly little I seem to be able to do about it.
Quote:Quote:<hr>I thought you had a girlfriend?<hr>
Quite true. So I'm not totally alone. Certain amount of companionship with her, but still, not part of any clan, Still up here on the mountain, half way up. Not seeing the clear view like you, and not snuggled in with lots of other furry bodies in the warren. Basically not what I hoped for, and surprisingly little I seem to be able to do about it.
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
OO: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
<hr>
No, I regard being true as great.
Logically, anything follows from a contradiction.
Your question assumes something false, that there
is a greatest thing. Anything follows.
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: If you had a choice between the solitary path of experiencing the highest understanding of Reality and leading a communal life of great emotional happiness, which would you choose?
OO: I have no choice, I am choice.
What if green dragons fly from monkey butts?
What then?
DQ: I dare say you'd have to choose to stop taking those drugs.
<hr>
How dismissive.
False premises allow fantasies to be constructed.
Engaging in fantasy is a distinctly feminine trait,
n'est pas?
When did you stop beating your wife?
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
JLJ
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Greatest thing of all
JlJ wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.<hr> Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Logically, anything follows from a contradiction. Your question assumes something false, that there
is a greatest thing. Anything follows.<hr> You misunderstand. The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
You've obviously chosen to value the true, but limited, perception that "nothing is fundamentally important" and place it above all else. That's your choice. But as I say, from my point of view, it is a very limited and uninteresting insight. It's kindergarten knowledge. Everyone already knows that nothing is intrinsically of value. Big deal. It's no great achievement to know this. What is far more challenging is trying to find that hidden thread of absolute knowledge which takes into account the truth that "nothing is fundamentally important" and uses it as a stepping stone to even greater truths. That's what I call philosophy.
Quote:Quote:<hr>DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.<hr> Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Logically, anything follows from a contradiction. Your question assumes something false, that there
is a greatest thing. Anything follows.<hr> You misunderstand. The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
You've obviously chosen to value the true, but limited, perception that "nothing is fundamentally important" and place it above all else. That's your choice. But as I say, from my point of view, it is a very limited and uninteresting insight. It's kindergarten knowledge. Everyone already knows that nothing is intrinsically of value. Big deal. It's no great achievement to know this. What is far more challenging is trying to find that hidden thread of absolute knowledge which takes into account the truth that "nothing is fundamentally important" and uses it as a stepping stone to even greater truths. That's what I call philosophy.
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Greatest thing of all
Paradise Child wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: I thought you had a girlfriend?
PC: Quite true. So I'm not totally alone. Certain amount of companionship with her, but still, not part of any clan, Still up here on the mountain, half way up. Not seeing the clear view like you, and not snuggled in with lots of other furry bodies in the warren. Basically not what I hoped for, and surprisingly little I seem to be able to do about it. <hr> Move back to the city. Join some social networks - a book club, a film society, a hiking class. Mingle. Become friends with people. What's the problem?
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: I thought you had a girlfriend?
PC: Quite true. So I'm not totally alone. Certain amount of companionship with her, but still, not part of any clan, Still up here on the mountain, half way up. Not seeing the clear view like you, and not snuggled in with lots of other furry bodies in the warren. Basically not what I hoped for, and surprisingly little I seem to be able to do about it. <hr> Move back to the city. Join some social networks - a book club, a film society, a hiking class. Mingle. Become friends with people. What's the problem?
-
Matt Gregory
- Posts: 1537
- Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:40 am
- Location: United States
"Value"
David,
Quote:Quote:<hr>The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"<hr>
What do you mean by "value?" Do you mean "what we have a tendency to do" or "what we think we should do?"
Quote:Quote:<hr>The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"<hr>
What do you mean by "value?" Do you mean "what we have a tendency to do" or "what we think we should do?"
freedom
Is it possible for no one to jump to conclusions with my words? If not, can I at least not be judged?
All you guys think you are too smart.
Let's see, Quin, I don't really want to aim for any mental construct. I would prefer no form, like the way the world already is, I prefer the world free. Happyness and sorrow being mixed and lonelyness and company too, aswell as joy and suffering. If anything I wish people didn't limit the world so much with there frightened minds (including my own) that need to be able to predict the future always or "understand" the present in order to remain calm.
Yeah... I wish man could be free from judgment of others, including after his death. Every body should be able to do and think and be as stupid as he wants. Rid ourselves of the word better to free ourselves from the word worse.
Anyway, I am more that aware of all the contradictions my words have made. Let's see if you guys can try to just grasp the jist.
Get at what I am trying to say and not what I said.
All you guys think you are too smart.
Let's see, Quin, I don't really want to aim for any mental construct. I would prefer no form, like the way the world already is, I prefer the world free. Happyness and sorrow being mixed and lonelyness and company too, aswell as joy and suffering. If anything I wish people didn't limit the world so much with there frightened minds (including my own) that need to be able to predict the future always or "understand" the present in order to remain calm.
Yeah... I wish man could be free from judgment of others, including after his death. Every body should be able to do and think and be as stupid as he wants. Rid ourselves of the word better to free ourselves from the word worse.
Anyway, I am more that aware of all the contradictions my words have made. Let's see if you guys can try to just grasp the jist.
Get at what I am trying to say and not what I said.
-
Leyla Shen
- Posts: 3851
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:12 pm
- Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA
Re: Greatest thing of all
David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.<hr>
Hm. Pay for it? Capitalism, it seems, knows no bounds. How does one who truly understands that all things lack inherent existence pay anything for anything? Equally, why -- in light of such an understanding -- would he require faith? What inherently (and whatever “it†is must be considered inherent) exists, for him, that would elicit temptation and thus require him to have/practise faith? Is this truth so fragile that it cannot be known so explicitly as not to demand faith?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.<hr>
Then this man cannot be considered enlightened. Is there a percentage of enlightenment, or something?
Quote:Quote:<hr>The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.<hr>
Agreed. Except for the last bit: by virtue of that which precedes the statement, there would be no delight, either.
Quote:Quote:<hr>At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.<hr>
Hm. Pay for it? Capitalism, it seems, knows no bounds. How does one who truly understands that all things lack inherent existence pay anything for anything? Equally, why -- in light of such an understanding -- would he require faith? What inherently (and whatever “it†is must be considered inherent) exists, for him, that would elicit temptation and thus require him to have/practise faith? Is this truth so fragile that it cannot be known so explicitly as not to demand faith?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.<hr>
Then this man cannot be considered enlightened. Is there a percentage of enlightenment, or something?
Quote:Quote:<hr>The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.<hr>
Agreed. Except for the last bit: by virtue of that which precedes the statement, there would be no delight, either.
-
Leyla Shen
- Posts: 3851
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:12 pm
- Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA
Re: freedom
Quote:Quote:<hr>Let's see if you guys can try to just grasp the jist. <hr>
No worries. However, a counter-challenge: let's see how long it takes you to see if "we" have grasped the jist -- if "we" have ever considered the idea of which you speak.
No worries. However, a counter-challenge: let's see how long it takes you to see if "we" have grasped the jist -- if "we" have ever considered the idea of which you speak.
-
Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Re: freedom
Spheiros,Quote:Quote:<hr>All you guys think you are too smart.<hr>Could a sheep ever not think in terms of herds?
Quote:Quote:<hr>I don't really want to aim for any mental construct<hr>
Then why do you log on to post on a message board about Rationality, Reason and Thinking? See also banner above. Are you perhaps aiming for plant life? If you don't want to aim at anything at all, then why logging on a board about masculinity, determination and courage?
Or is there any other road to understanding emptiness that isn't another huge delusion in disguise for the mind? And how would you really know...?
Quote:Quote:<hr>I don't really want to aim for any mental construct<hr>
Then why do you log on to post on a message board about Rationality, Reason and Thinking? See also banner above. Are you perhaps aiming for plant life? If you don't want to aim at anything at all, then why logging on a board about masculinity, determination and courage?
Or is there any other road to understanding emptiness that isn't another huge delusion in disguise for the mind? And how would you really know...?
-
Dave Toast
- Posts: 509
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm
Re: freedom
Quote:Quote:<hr>Spheiros: Is it possible for no one to jump to conclusions with my words? If not, can I at least not be judged?<hr>
Persecution complex.
Persecution complex.
-
WolfsonJakk
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:50 pm
Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>If you had a choice between the solitary path of experiencing the highest understanding of Reality and leading a communal life of great emotional happiness, which would you choose?<hr>
How are those two things different? Doesn't the "greatest understanding" necessitate a "communal life" regardless of whether someone lives on the mountaintop or in the alleyway of a bustling city?
Tharan
How are those two things different? Doesn't the "greatest understanding" necessitate a "communal life" regardless of whether someone lives on the mountaintop or in the alleyway of a bustling city?
Tharan
-
ParadiseChild
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:56 am
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>PC: Certain amount of companionship with her, but still, not part of any clan, Still up here on the mountain, half way up. Not seeing the clear view like you, and not snuggled in with lots of other furry bodies in the warren. Basically not what I hoped for, and surprisingly little I seem to be able to do about it.
DQ: Move back to the city. Join some social networks - a book club, a film society, a hiking class. Mingle. Become friends with people. What's the problem?<hr>
You know, you're right. I'm making too much out of the temperament thing, the whole cause and effect it's my nature thing. My lone tree rooted where I am analogy just doesn't work. I'm not a tree. I have free will. I can be acceptable. Think I'll join a bowling league.
DQ: Move back to the city. Join some social networks - a book club, a film society, a hiking class. Mingle. Become friends with people. What's the problem?<hr>
You know, you're right. I'm making too much out of the temperament thing, the whole cause and effect it's my nature thing. My lone tree rooted where I am analogy just doesn't work. I'm not a tree. I have free will. I can be acceptable. Think I'll join a bowling league.
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: "Value"
Matt Gregory wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
MG: What do you mean by "value?" Do you mean "what we have a tendency to do" or "what we think we should do?" <hr> I mean, what core value does your life express?
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
MG: What do you mean by "value?" Do you mean "what we have a tendency to do" or "what we think we should do?" <hr> I mean, what core value does your life express?
Re: "Value"
Quote:Quote:<hr>What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all<hr>
Since all “things†are conditioned and therefore inconsistent, the greatest thing of all would be impermanent and stressful, leading to compounded suffering.
Since all “things†are conditioned and therefore inconsistent, the greatest thing of all would be impermanent and stressful, leading to compounded suffering.
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Greatest thing of all
Leyla wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.
Leyla: Hm. Pay for it? Capitalism, it seems, knows no bounds. How does one who truly understands that all things lack inherent existence pay anything for anything? Equally, why -- in light of such an understanding -- would he require faith? What inherently (and whatever “it†is must be considered inherent) exists, for him, that would elicit temptation and thus require him to have/practise faith? Is this truth so fragile that it cannot be known so explicitly as not to demand faith? <hr> It's not that Truth is fragile, but rather our wavering egos. Because our egos constantly love to waver (in the direction of happiness, security and illusion), a counterforce is needed.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.
Leyla: Then this man cannot be considered enlightened. Is there a percentage of enlightenment, or something? <hr> What oftens happens is that a person can experience the realization of Reality fully and completely for a few moments, and then his ego awakens and begins to lay claim over it. For example, he might become intoxicated by the idea he has finally conquered all ignorance, that he is one of the few beings in history who has ever managed to achieve such a fantastic feat. By the time the orgiastic thrill of this great joy has taken full effect, he has long since dropped out of the purity of the enlightened state.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.
Leyla: Agreed. Except for the last bit: by virtue of that which precedes the statement, there would be no delight, either. <hr> Yes, I was using the term "delight" rather loosely here. "Appreciate the significance of" might be a better way of putting it. But there is no real way to describe this heightened consciousness.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: At this stage, I am only probing as to how much value you place on Truth. What are you willing to pay for it? It is a question which is asked of all of us, in every moment of the day. The core question of faith.
Leyla: Hm. Pay for it? Capitalism, it seems, knows no bounds. How does one who truly understands that all things lack inherent existence pay anything for anything? Equally, why -- in light of such an understanding -- would he require faith? What inherently (and whatever “it†is must be considered inherent) exists, for him, that would elicit temptation and thus require him to have/practise faith? Is this truth so fragile that it cannot be known so explicitly as not to demand faith? <hr> It's not that Truth is fragile, but rather our wavering egos. Because our egos constantly love to waver (in the direction of happiness, security and illusion), a counterforce is needed.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: Or if he does, then it means his realization is imperfect and there is still some ego involved.
Leyla: Then this man cannot be considered enlightened. Is there a percentage of enlightenment, or something? <hr> What oftens happens is that a person can experience the realization of Reality fully and completely for a few moments, and then his ego awakens and begins to lay claim over it. For example, he might become intoxicated by the idea he has finally conquered all ignorance, that he is one of the few beings in history who has ever managed to achieve such a fantastic feat. By the time the orgiastic thrill of this great joy has taken full effect, he has long since dropped out of the purity of the enlightened state.
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: The enlightened person experiences something far greater than happiness, which can best be described as infinite clarity or understanding. A supreme form of consciousness in which any kind of detour into the emotions, even the emotions of happiness, is automatically regarded as foriegn, false, a degeneraton, a backwards step. It's a pure consciousness which really only delights the pure-minded.
Leyla: Agreed. Except for the last bit: by virtue of that which precedes the statement, there would be no delight, either. <hr> Yes, I was using the term "delight" rather loosely here. "Appreciate the significance of" might be a better way of putting it. But there is no real way to describe this heightened consciousness.
-
Leyla Shen
- Posts: 3851
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:12 pm
- Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>Yes, I was using the term "delight" rather loosely here. "Appreciate the significance of" might be a better way of putting it. But there is no real way to describe this heightened consciousness. <hr>
I reckon "infinite clarity and understanding" probably describes it pretty well. Cannae get much higher than that. I think the problem arises when you try to describe the emotional (action) aspect of this state of existence/being. This is precisely the reason that I must logically conclude that emotions, for the enlightened, are a tool -- consciously at the fingertips of infinite clarity and understanding.
I reckon "infinite clarity and understanding" probably describes it pretty well. Cannae get much higher than that. I think the problem arises when you try to describe the emotional (action) aspect of this state of existence/being. This is precisely the reason that I must logically conclude that emotions, for the enlightened, are a tool -- consciously at the fingertips of infinite clarity and understanding.
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
<hr>
No, I do not. There is no greatest thing.
Quote:Quote:<hr>
JLJ: Logically, anything follows from a contradiction. Your question assumes something false, that there
is a greatest thing. Anything follows.
DQ: You misunderstand. The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
<hr>
"What do you personally value above all else?"
is not equivalent to:
"What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?"
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: You've obviously chosen to value the true, but limited, perception that "nothing is fundamentally important" and place it above all else. That's your choice. But as I say, from my point of view, it is a very limited and uninteresting insight. It's kindergarten knowledge. Everyone already knows that nothing is intrinsically of value. Big deal. It's no great achievement to know this. What is far more challenging is trying to find that hidden thread of absolute knowledge which takes into account the truth that "nothing is fundamentally important" and uses it as a stepping stone to even greater truths. That's what I call philosophy.
<hr>
This thing: "nothing is fundamentally important"
is your paraphrase of my writing, establishing a
straw man, from which you then beat out the stuffing.
Let's see, so far:
1) You ask illogical questions.
2) You place blame for misunderstanding on the
reader of your words, ignoring the
meaninglessness of your words.
3) You use an invalid logical form, the
straw man argument.
Yep, that's what I call Philosophy.
And the above sentence is what I call sarcasm.
Edited by: 000jlj000 at: 6/9/05 2:08
DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
<hr>
No, I do not. There is no greatest thing.
Quote:Quote:<hr>
JLJ: Logically, anything follows from a contradiction. Your question assumes something false, that there
is a greatest thing. Anything follows.
DQ: You misunderstand. The question I am asking is ethical in nature, not metaphysical. It is a question about character. It inquires, "What do you personally value above all else?"
<hr>
"What do you personally value above all else?"
is not equivalent to:
"What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?"
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: You've obviously chosen to value the true, but limited, perception that "nothing is fundamentally important" and place it above all else. That's your choice. But as I say, from my point of view, it is a very limited and uninteresting insight. It's kindergarten knowledge. Everyone already knows that nothing is intrinsically of value. Big deal. It's no great achievement to know this. What is far more challenging is trying to find that hidden thread of absolute knowledge which takes into account the truth that "nothing is fundamentally important" and uses it as a stepping stone to even greater truths. That's what I call philosophy.
<hr>
This thing: "nothing is fundamentally important"
is your paraphrase of my writing, establishing a
straw man, from which you then beat out the stuffing.
Let's see, so far:
1) You ask illogical questions.
2) You place blame for misunderstanding on the
reader of your words, ignoring the
meaninglessness of your words.
3) You use an invalid logical form, the
straw man argument.
Yep, that's what I call Philosophy.
And the above sentence is what I call sarcasm.
Edited by: 000jlj000 at: 6/9/05 2:08
-
David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr> DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
JLJ: No, I do not. There is no greatest thing. <hr> Then why do you cling to the idea that there is no greatest thing and allow it to shape your life so much?
All my questioning is generated by this core contradiction which shines out of your words.
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
JLJ: No, I do not. There is no greatest thing. <hr> Then why do you cling to the idea that there is no greatest thing and allow it to shape your life so much?
All my questioning is generated by this core contradiction which shines out of your words.
Re: Greatest thing of all
David: Yes, I was using the term "delight" rather loosely here. "Appreciate the significance of" might be a better way of putting it. But there is no real way to describe this heightened consciousness.
It must be more than just not being negative. 'Appreciate' must be a word of respect, rather than just as a 'recognition', and respect is an emotion. When someone respects someone else they feel good. The same applies to truth. Is the positive side, the little wins of the ego as it struggles against natural human emotional urges, including an instinctual dislike of mystery? That’s what you said, at least:
It's not that Truth is fragile, but rather our wavering egos. Because our egos constantly love to waver (in the direction of happiness, security and illusion), a counterforce is needed.
Wolf:How are those two things different? Doesn't the "greatest understanding" necessitate a "communal life" regardless of whether someone lives on the mountaintop or in the alleyway of a bustling city?
:) It is a rather large commune though, seeing as it encompasses the totality.
Even if the one had a non-dualistic mindset (whatever that is) then their consciousness would still have to talk to their brain to have any concept at all. It would still be a duality. The 'now' brain relying on communication from the past brain forms a duality, as does the two hemispheres.
Hey, that means we all have four eyes! Mimimum commune size=4. Although of course the past brain, namely memory, has a practically infinite number of potential personalities, seeing as it is changing all the time and memory retrieval requires access to billions of paths, so perhaps you are right.
It must be more than just not being negative. 'Appreciate' must be a word of respect, rather than just as a 'recognition', and respect is an emotion. When someone respects someone else they feel good. The same applies to truth. Is the positive side, the little wins of the ego as it struggles against natural human emotional urges, including an instinctual dislike of mystery? That’s what you said, at least:
It's not that Truth is fragile, but rather our wavering egos. Because our egos constantly love to waver (in the direction of happiness, security and illusion), a counterforce is needed.
Wolf:How are those two things different? Doesn't the "greatest understanding" necessitate a "communal life" regardless of whether someone lives on the mountaintop or in the alleyway of a bustling city?
:) It is a rather large commune though, seeing as it encompasses the totality.
Even if the one had a non-dualistic mindset (whatever that is) then their consciousness would still have to talk to their brain to have any concept at all. It would still be a duality. The 'now' brain relying on communication from the past brain forms a duality, as does the two hemispheres.
Hey, that means we all have four eyes! Mimimum commune size=4. Although of course the past brain, namely memory, has a practically infinite number of potential personalities, seeing as it is changing all the time and memory retrieval requires access to billions of paths, so perhaps you are right.
-
Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Re: respect
JimhazQuote:Quote:<hr>respect is an emotion<hr>
I'd say respect or appreciation is only relevant when seen as action. Respect is shown, acting out of respect and so on. Any action can of course be internalized using memory, creating a feeling; internal representations of physical events. But this leads back into the world of imagination and opinion, perhaps even deeper into the 'idios cosmos'.
When outside and inside stops being so contradictory and when action, words and internal body states like feelings are speaking with the same tongue - the whole issue of character - what is then the need for some 'emotion' called respect? I'd suggest it's not to be found anymore.
I'd say respect or appreciation is only relevant when seen as action. Respect is shown, acting out of respect and so on. Any action can of course be internalized using memory, creating a feeling; internal representations of physical events. But this leads back into the world of imagination and opinion, perhaps even deeper into the 'idios cosmos'.
When outside and inside stops being so contradictory and when action, words and internal body states like feelings are speaking with the same tongue - the whole issue of character - what is then the need for some 'emotion' called respect? I'd suggest it's not to be found anymore.
Re: Greatest thing of all
Quote:Quote:<hr>
DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
JLJ: No, I do not. There is no greatest thing.
DQ: Then why do you cling to the idea that there is no greatest thing and allow it to shape your life so much?
All my questioning is generated by this core contradiction which shines out of your words.
<hr>
Why do you cling to evasiveness? The contradictions
are in your words.
DQ: What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all?
JLJ: Realizing that there is no greatest thing.
DQ: In other words, you regard truth to be the greatest thing.
JLJ: No, I regard being true as great.
DQ: Which you consider to be the greatest thing. We already know that, mate. Tell us something new.
JLJ: No, I do not. There is no greatest thing.
DQ: Then why do you cling to the idea that there is no greatest thing and allow it to shape your life so much?
All my questioning is generated by this core contradiction which shines out of your words.
<hr>
Why do you cling to evasiveness? The contradictions
are in your words.
Re: Greatest thing of all
David wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all:
The highest understanding of Reality?
The heady pleasure of great emotional happiness?
The exquisite bliss of the mystical experience?
Intimacy with others?
Peace on earth and the material well-being of all humankind?
Feeling safe and comfortable?
If you had a choice between the solitary path of experiencing the highest understanding of Reality and leading a communal life of great emotional happiness, which would you choose?<hr>
What difference would that make? Objectively speaking of course.
Quote:Quote:<hr>What do you consider to be the greatest thing of all:
The highest understanding of Reality?
The heady pleasure of great emotional happiness?
The exquisite bliss of the mystical experience?
Intimacy with others?
Peace on earth and the material well-being of all humankind?
Feeling safe and comfortable?
If you had a choice between the solitary path of experiencing the highest understanding of Reality and leading a communal life of great emotional happiness, which would you choose?<hr>
What difference would that make? Objectively speaking of course.
-
creativegal
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:45 pm
Re: Greatest thing of all
You brought yourself to your own aviary Birdy.
And you'll take yourself home when your will gives up.
"When you're ready for the solitary path, theres no other choice"
Exactly!
Once you get a taste of solidarity thats the preferance.
The nature of Reality is knowing who you are, and you find this in solitude.
And you'll take yourself home when your will gives up.
"When you're ready for the solitary path, theres no other choice"
Exactly!
Once you get a taste of solidarity thats the preferance.
The nature of Reality is knowing who you are, and you find this in solitude.