Forum useless for enlightenment

[Ankit Gupta]

Enlightenment is, perceiving one’s true nature directly and not perceiving one and the other through concepts (or the mind). Since ones true nature is not dependent upon forming any logical views or arguments about it, I question the utility of this forum for an enlightenment seeker. Such a person would be better off trying to clear his delusions one by one in the world out there. Shouldn’t one enquire into one’s nature and stop fooling around with philosophy (more concepts). All it requires is courage to keep up self discovery. At some point the self image will snap, and then one would see the true self. While philosophical discussions of this sort are likely to keep up the fictional role playing self image (quite harmful in fact). The only valid use of this forum in my view is intellectual entertainment.

[emma]

I mostly agree with you.Intellectual ego-stroking I think.
I came here to try to persuade these genii to come up with a way to help others using their logic and intelligence but all they seem to do is to become offended.

The intelligent are no closer to enlightenment than the dul, in fact they are probably a lot further away ensnared in their own mires

[sky]

ag

Enlightenment is, perceiving one’s true nature directly and not perceiving one and the other through concepts (or the mind). Since ones true nature is not dependent upon forming any logical views or arguments about it, I question the utility of this forum for an enlightenment seeker. Such a person would be better off trying to clear his delusions one by one in the world out there. Shouldn’t one enquire into one’s nature and stop fooling around with philosophy (more concepts). All it requires is courage to keep up self discovery. At some point the self image will snap, and then one would see the true self. While philosophical discussions of this sort are likely to keep up the fictional role playing self image (quite harmful in fact). The only valid use of this forum in my view is intellectual entertainment.

i thought i was done with this forum my main issue was with the woman is mindless and soulless and i never took it that seriously but

i was watching a movie called 'everything is illuminated' which is a story of a young jewish man going to the ukraine to find the woman who helped his grandfather escape the nazis

when they finally find this woman she has all these boxes filled with things belonging to the members of the stetl or village

as she begins to decribe the destruction of the village from which almost no one 'got out alive' she says:

they were very logical

logical

first they burned the synagogue

then they made everyone spit on the torah which was thrown on the ground

one man refused to spit and the price he paid was not only his life but that of his pregnant daughter

logical

the nazis were very logical in their zeal to destroy the jews

it is the same zeal here to destroy the feminine

logical

jesus christ

[Matt Gregory]

It's not logical to kill Jews, Sky, no matter how logical the execution of it is.

[sky]

neither is the destruction of the feminine no matter how logically laid out

of course i know it is not logical to kill jews

do i need to be 'butch' to grasp that

[emma]

As I said on another topic you men go and read the stories of Ruth of Esther of Rachel and Rebekah, of Judith and Debra...Read them like you'd read Nietzsche or the Buddha and see what there is for you there....then maybe enlightenment may be possible

[Ankit Gupta]

The intelligent are no closer to enlightenment than the dull, in fact they are probably a lot further away ensnared in their own mires

Yes indeed, what keeps humans from enlightenment is the conceptual overlay on reality. The intelligent would value and be highly attached to such concepts, and thus would have wandered even further from the reality.

[Matt Gregory]

Enlightenment is, perceiving one’s true nature directly and not perceiving one and the other through concepts (or the mind). Since ones true nature is not dependent upon forming any logical views or arguments about it, I question the utility of this forum for an enlightenment seeker. Such a person would be better off trying to clear his delusions one by one in the world out there. Shouldn’t one enquire into one’s nature and stop fooling around with philosophy (more concepts). All it requires is courage to keep up self discovery. At some point the self image will snap, and then one would see the true self. While philosophical discussions of this sort are likely to keep up the fictional role playing self image (quite harmful in fact). The only valid use of this forum in my view is intellectual entertainment.

This forum is useful for much more than that. It disseminates wise ideas and challenges the cherished beliefs of society that prevent us from progressing as a species. It provides intellectual stimulation and thought-provoking material that can't be found anywhere else.

This isn't a fact-based forum and we're not here to catalog facts or collect concepts. Concepts are useful tools and we aren't afraid to use them here, but we don't put any other value on them other than as tools. We're not into dogma and scripture here. Every idea has to be understood as it was meant to be understood, otherwise it's useless. You have to do your own thinking. Coming here and passively reading the posts is like you said, nothing more than intellectual entertainment. It's like anything. Piano lessons are lessons in noisemaking if you don't practice.

Enlightenment might not be a logical experience, strictly speaking, but without logic to guide you - in whatever you do, not just the spiritual path - you're operating with your eyes shut, because logic is our only connection to truth/reality. For example, there are many experiences we can induce with our minds, but if the experience can't be verified logically there's no way of knowing what it is, whether it's an hallucination or insanity or ultimate reality or what. Logic is the only thing that can verify anything.

[Matt Gregory]

neither is the destruction of the feminine no matter how logically laid out

The feminine is the illogical, so it follows that it is logical to destroy it.

of course i know it is not logical to kill jews

do i need to be 'butch' to grasp that

Then what was the point of that post? Or were you just flailing around randomly trying to insult us or something? That's what it looked like.

[Ankit Gupta]

logic is our only connection to truth/reality. For example, there are many experiences we can induce with our minds, but if the experience can't be verified logically there's no way of knowing what it is, whether it's an hallucination or insanity or ultimate reality or what. Logic is the only thing that can verify anything.

Logic is the way of deductions by the mind, is a function of the mind. Reality exists without the mind, and without the logic. If there is an I which wants to be really sure that this exists or that exists this is still the trap of the ego(conceptual thinking). Logic can verify ultimate-reality! no way.

[Matt Gregory]

logic is our only connection to truth/reality. For example, there are many experiences we can induce with our minds, but if the experience can't be verified logically there's no way of knowing what it is, whether it's an hallucination or insanity or ultimate reality or what. Logic is the only thing that can verify anything.

Logic is the way of deductions by the mind, is a function of the mind. Reality exists without the mind, and without the logic.

Right.

If there is an I which wants to be really sure that this exists or that exists this is still the trap of the ego(conceptual thinking).

There's nothing wrong with conceptual thinking. It's not egotistical to acknowledge the existence of a self. We do have to survive and function in this world and the self is a useful concept for that purpose. It's false thinking that prevents us from becoming enlightened.

Logic can verify ultimate-reality! no way.

It can verify the experience of ultimate reality.

[David Quinn]

Ankit wrote,

The only valid use of this forum in my view is intellectual entertainment.

It ultimately depends on each individual as to what use can be made of this forum. For a lot of people it is just intellectual entertainment. But for others, it is far more serious. It is akin to life and death.

Yes indeed, what keeps humans from enlightenment is the conceptual overlay on reality. The intelligent would value and be highly attached to such concepts, and thus would have wandered even further from the reality.

If a person allows himself to get lost within concepts, and, as a result, wanders even further away from reality, then he can hardly be described as intelligent, can he.

As you correctly state, what keeps humans from enlightenment is the conceptual overlay which they project onto reality. The only way this conceptual overlay can be dismantled is through skillfull and profound philosophical analysis. That is, by using logical reasoning to expose the existence of this conceptual overlay and methodically unravel it.

If a person is unwilling to go through this process, then he is going to remain trapped inside this conceptual overlay, no matter what he does. He can meditate or chant or engage in self-inquiry until the cows come home, but he is never going to get anywhere. The most he can achieve in this manner is to try and temporarily shock himself out of this conceptual overlay using drugs, or strong emotion, or techniques in positive thinking, etc, or else skillfully block it out using meditative techniques. In this way, he may be able to occasionally experience an altered state of consciousness which may or may not echo the nature of reality. But that's about it.

Of course, many people these days mistakenly consider these altered states or "glimpses" to be enlightenment itself, not realizing that these glimpses are little more than discarded crumbs from an even greater feast which is currently beyond them.

Shouldn’t one enquire into one’s nature and stop fooling around with philosophy (more concepts).

Philosophical reasoning can either be used to build up more concepts (which is essentially what academia does), or it can be used to undermine concepts (which is genuine philosophy).

The only valid use of this forum in my view is intellectual entertainment.

I am not surprised by your view. If a person convinces himself that the intellect and logic are useless to begin with, then how else is he going to view the forum?

Logic can verify ultimate-reality! no way.

By what means have you verified that?

-

[sky]

matt gregory

Then what was the point of that post? Or were you just flailing around randomly trying to insult us or something? That's what it looked like.

actually i have not insulted anyone i am not that attached to this forum or anyone here to feel anything personal for anyone

as a number of people already know i have no intention of posting past 100

so who is us

and i the only them or not us

actually i think you were a bit condescending in this post

It's not logical to kill Jews, Sky, no matter how logical the execution of it is.

and the flailing about randomingly is a bit rude

[sky]

The feminine is the illogical, so it follows that it is logical to destroy it.

the feminine is the illogical here but not universally in fact as dq says society 'seems to be praising women all the time'

so if society glorifies me as female do you really think the genius forum has the power to dismay me

in fact i put 'feminine is illogical' into google and lo and behold i see no deep scientific or philosophical support on the first page in fact i find this

What do I mean when I use the word Feminine? The Feminine is about process and relationship. It is about playing, experimenting, doing several things at once. It is not goal-oriented, although there may be a goal toward which it heads. It is the process of getting to the goal that is all-important. The Feminine can appear illogical when we look at it from the perspective of the Masculine, but it has an inner logic that is its alone. The twists and turns, the forward and backward movement of the labyrinth, the dancing between quadrants, the act of allowing the unexpected to affect your journey, the still point of the centre-that is static and containing while honouring the rhythms and movement of life and death-all form an exquisite portrayal of how Feminine energy manifests itself.

The Masculine, on the other hand, heads straight toward its goal. It is decisive and direct, cutting through that which it perceives as extraneous to get to the core. It is active, logical and linear, working on the premise of cause and effect. Both Masculine and Feminine are necessary and both must be honoured.

The twists and turns constituting the body of the labyrinth are the pathways of the Soul in its Feminine aspect. They mirror for us the flow of psychic energy as Jung described it. There is a continuous movement forward (progression), which is always followed by a movement backward (regression), followed by a movement forward, and so on. This is the movement of life. It is the flow between the opposites, whether between darkness and light or joy and sorrow.

This message is important to explore in our world today for we have lost touch with what it means to live in the mystery of existence. Most of us get caught up in the ebb and flow of daily life, following paths laid out for us by social structures we have come to accept as the norm. We forget that life is not lived in a straight line. We forget that death is always sitting on our left shoulder. We forget that disintegration and decay are the truth for all life forms on this planet.

http://www.completehealthmag.com/summer ... yrinth.htm

[Matt Gregory]

As you [Ankit] correctly state, what keeps humans from enlightenment is the conceptual overlay which they project onto reality. The only way this conceptual overlay can be dismantled is through skillfull and profound philosophical analysis. That is, by using logical reasoning to expose the existence of this conceptual overlay and methodically unravel it.

If a person is unwilling to go through this process, then he is going to remain trapped inside this conceptual overlay, no matter what he does.

But there has to be some conceptual activity occurring, otherwise we become unconscious. I think concepts are fine as long as they are true reflections of reality and don't create things that can't possibly exist.

[Matt Gregory]

The feminine is the illogical, so it follows that it is logical to destroy it.

the feminine is the illogical here but not universally in fact as dq says society 'seems to be praising women all the time'

so if society glorifies me as female do you really think the genius forum has the power to dismay me

Nobody is trying to dismay you for being female, only for being ditzy and neglectful of your personal development.

[sky]

mg

Nobody is trying to dismay you for being female, only for being ditzy and neglectful of your personal development.

and it is a given that

a. i am ditzy

b. i have neglected my development

[Matt Gregory]

It's an observation.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

do i need to be 'butch' to grasp that

No. Personally, I think that if someone needs to credit himself for something like his gender, then he must feel that he is so lacking in actual intelligence that he must clutch at straws to try to "prove" himself intelligent.

Genius is shown by quality thoughts, not bodily appendages, sexual orientation, mannerisms associated with gender, or anything other than quality thoughts and, if possible, behavior that is congruent with those quality thoughts.

[David Quinn]

Agreed.

-

[unwise]

I agree with you Ankit. What is going on here is some sort of intellectual masturbation in the form of: "I am without delusions." Computers are actually superior at logic, but they will never be enlightened. They can also conceptualize in mathematical dimensions that are beyond human beings. But they are not enlightened.

The form: "I am without delusions" is not an enlightened statement. The essence of enlightenment is realizing directly that there is no personal 'I' at all.

They will tell you here that they have intellectually realized with their superior delusion-free masculine brains that 'there is no 'I.' This is NOT the same as a direct realization that there is only one 'I.' You see, there is an 'I'. But there is only one 'I.' It is the Universal Self. That is Self realization.

[Ankit Gupta]

If a person allows himself to get lost within concepts, and, as a result, wanders even further away from reality, then he can hardly be described as intelligent, can he.

I would say that intelligence as defined traditionally would be the speed at which one can grasp and manipulate abstract concepts. For example skilled theoretical mathematicians (say university professors) would be intelligent, However this skill gets misused, and an even heavier conceptual overlay is laid over reality.

The only way this conceptual overlay can be dismantled is through skillfull and profound philosophical analysis. That is, by using logical reasoning to expose the existence of this conceptual overlay and methodically unravel it.

Yes but logic takes only one to some level. Arguably the people on this forum have reasoned out that they are in trap of a conceptual overlay. Now consider the discussions here, would they not lead to more concepts?

Of course, many people these days mistakenly consider these altered states or "glimpses" to be enlightenment itself, not realizing that these glimpses are little more than discarded crumbs from an even greater feast which is currently beyond them.

Excellent, could not agree more.

It be used to undermine concepts (which is genuine philosophy).

This philosophy has to be practical blood and sweat philosophy, totally applied. If so, could not agree more. Then it is indeed philosophy(love of wisdom). (But not obtained by forum discussions). One must have the courage to find for oneself this true wisdom.

I am not surprised by your view. If a person convinces himself that the intellect and logic are useless to begin with, then how else is he going to view the forum?

Not useless, ah indeed very fine tools, however they are one of the factors in entrapment. This forum being a hodgepodge of views and ideas, leads to a lot of useless garbage for a few good ideas. And arguementation, leads to ego strengthening.

Logic can verify ultimate-reality! no way.
By what means have you verified that?

Direct experience of the ultimate reality. Logic was used as a tool, but in the real world and not in the forum. The ultimate is clear by its very nature, just as real as the act of replying to your post. That I am typing this in reply to your post is a fact(Do I need logic and arguments to convince myself?)

[Kevin Solway]

You see, there is an 'I'. But there is only one 'I.' It is the Universal Self.

Nevertheless an enlightened person has more wisdom than an unenlightened person. That is, he has a personal "I" which is enlightened, in contrast with another person's "I" which isn't.

There may be only one cake, but different pieces of the cake can be different sizes.

[Ankit Gupta]

Philosophical reasoning can either be used to build up more concepts (which is essentially what academia does), or it can be used to undermine concepts (which is genuine philosophy).

It also seems that the "enlightened", here are adding useless conceptual realities. For example the whole male female issue. Now what has that got to do with reality. If there is truth to the whole business the seeker can find for himself, why trouble him with your opinions. The seeker would be inclined to incorporate into his worldview the ideas of those whom he considers worth emulating(and add to his conceptual overlay). Now this is not an admirable thing to do, for the masters here.

[Ankit Gupta]

Nevertheless an enlightened person has more wisdom than an unenlightened person. That is, he has a personal "I" which is enlightened, in contrast with another person's "I" which isn't.

Is ego using "enlightenment" for its own gains? Surely you mean the mind is more attuned to the reality. But then the personal I dissolves. ( "he has a personal I" !!) Who is he and who is the personal I? It seems instead of nonduality now there are 3 players

He

I

Ultimate reality


triality?