Masculine and Feminine Psychology

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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Masculine and Feminine Psychology

Post by David Quinn »

In the "Existence of God" thread, AlyOshA wrote:
I’m sorry for using this thread for a totally irrelevant inquiry but I have a question. I don’t know a whole lot about QRS and I am rather new to this system. But what is all this reference to masculinity (on this forum and in its descriptions)? It seems that masculinity is the preferred characteristic. Am I right? And why is this approach considered better than the feminine approach?
Firstly, there is no such thing as "QRS", or a QRS system, or anything like that. The "QRS" label is something that past detractors of this forum have coined in an attempt to reduce what is happening here to cult-like behaviour.

There are shared values among some of us here - e.g. truth, wisdom, enlightenment, rationality, the conquering of all delusion, independence of thought, etc - but that is more or less the extent of it. There is no method to practice, no scripts to follow, and no authority figures to worship. We're just a collection of like-minded thinkers who like to engage in good old-fashioned thinking.

As for the issue of masculinity/femininity, I refer you to a short essay that I wrote some years ago. It still reflects what I think today:
Masculine and Feminine Psychology

Understanding masculine and feminine psychology is extremely important as far as one's philosophical development is concerned. If one is going to be serious about becoming enlightened, then one has to know exactly what the ego is and how it operates. And one cannot begin to understand the ego without understanding its component parts - namely, the masculine and the feminine.

One thing is certain. Failure to gain a proper understanding of this issue will undermine one's spiritual search from the outset. There have been countless individuals who have fallen short in their attempts to become enlightened because of an overwhelming attachment to femininity, and to women. They are attachments that run deep in all of our psyches, in both men and women. They go to the core of our egos and fundamentally shape who we are and what we choose to value, usually without our even knowing it. They sit behind the scenes, as it were, deep within the mind, relentlessly wielding an influence upon one's thought-processes, powerfully distorting them and rendering them incapable of apprehending Truth. All attachments do this to greater or lesser degree, of course, but woman/femininity is unquestionably the largest and most fundamental attachment that we have.

Yet there are very few people alive today who are genuinely aware of what is happening inside of them and willing to face up to it. Ours is a culture with a huge mental block about the nature of women and femininity. Because they are such powerful attachments that go to the core of the ego, people are strongly motivated to protect them at all costs and, as a result, they instinctively block out all but the most harmless truths about women and femininity.

* * * * *

Everyone knows there are broad differences between the sexes. Men are generally physically stronger, more aggressive, more single-minded, more attached to logic, more solution-orientated, and more anti-social. Women, on the other hand, tend to be more passive, more nurturing, more attached to feelings and relationships, more sensual, more childlike and more able to find happiness in the moment. These are generalizations, of course, but most men and women seem to fit neatly into their respective gender categories.

Men are usually more extreme in everything they do. They are the ones who commit the great crimes like serial killing, just as they are the ones who create the great masterpieces in music, art, science and philosophy. The masculine qualities of aggression and single-mindedness lend themselves to the achievement of great things, whether it be in creation or destruction. Women, on the other hand, generally do very little of note either way.

Because of this, men are far more suited to the philosophic life than women are. The goal of enlightenment/perfection is very lofty and difficult to reach. It is literally the greatest prize open to the human mind. If someone wants to attain it, they have to be highly motivated, mentally-resilient, aggressive, single-minded, attached to logic, and anti-social. In other words, they have to be masculine.

This doesn't mean that a woman cannot attain enlightenment. I, for one, like to believe it's possible. But clearly, a woman who intently develops her masculinity at the expense of her femininity would be a woman going completely against the grain. She would become unlike any other woman alive today, so much so that she would stick out like a blazing beacon in the darkness. To my knowledge, no woman has ever attained enlightenment.

Yet develop her masculinity she must, if she wants to lead an ethical life. There can be no goodness without consciousness of Truth, and there can be no consciousness of Truth without a sustained masculine drive to conquer one's ignorance. We are all morally obliged to do everything we can to eliminate our femininity in an effort to become purely masculine. Only in this way will we be able to enter into the marvelous clarity of enlightenment, be at one with Nature's flow, and begin acting as responsible human beings.

* * * * *

My interest in masculinity and femininity is spiritual in nature. It is important to keep this in mind when studying my thought. All of my comments and observations about women are made in the context of the Absolute. The Absolute is my primary interest in life. I have no desire to hurt people, especially women, but at the same time the truth needs to be said!

In simple terms, I define the masculine to be that in us which seeks greatness. It is the active principle and incorporated into it are the traditional masculine qualities of idealism, courage, persistence, single-mindedness, rationality, independence, and the desire to dominate.

The feminine, on the other hand, is that part of us which is easily contented and loves going with the flow. It incorporates the qualities of unconsciousness, submissiveness, passiveness, absorption in immediacy, indulgence in emotional pleasure, scatteredness, and the desire to minimize one's existence.

All of us have these two aspects within us to varying degrees. In women, the feminine is overwhelming and forms the core of their ego, personality and psychology. Very few women have significant amounts of masculinity in them; in those instances where masculine behaviour is displayed it is usually simulated. In most cases, women can only ape masculinity and only then under certain specific conditions (which, ultimately, are created and sustained by men).

Men in general are also very feminine, but in some men at least the masculine is large enough and deep-rooted enough to have an impact on their lives. These men can be thought of as possessing a "masculine consciousness". Yet, in truth, only a perfectly enlightened Buddha is entirely without femininity, for only such a being has thoroughly eliminated his ego (together with its feminine and masculine parts). To the degree that a man has an ego femininity still exists as a force inside him.

Men constantly suppress what little masculinity they have in order to remain pleasing to women. Very rarely, for example, does a man allow his masculinity to infiltrate his personal thought to any significant degree, for the simple reason that masculine forms of thinking tend to be very unpopular with women. When a man becomes more masculine in his thinking, he becomes more independent and solitary in his mind and therefore less concerned with women's desires and more indifferent to their charms. Women, therefore, despise and fear masculine thinkers.

When men do express some masculinity, it is usually done with women's implicit (or explicit) approval. Because women in the main are crude, sensual creatures with little or no higher aspirations, the masculinity that men tend to express is usually just as crude, sensuous and aimless. At other times, men just explode out of sheer frustration at having to constantly suppress a significant part of themselves - their masculine yearnings, their soul and conscience.

Men clearly have a love-hate relationship with their masculinity. While they might feel violated and cheated at having to constantly suppress their masculinity, they are at the same time deeply afraid of it. They are afraid of its potential, of where it might lead them and what it might do. For they know deep down that masculinity seeks higher things than a wife, and that to go beyond wife is to go beyond the warm embrace of the human race and venture alone into unknown territory. Most men think it much more desirable to be safely tied to a woman than to be cast adrift in the loftiness and solitude of greatness, and they quite willingly shut down large tracts of their minds to facilitate this.

As far as the spiritual path is concerned, the cultivation of masculinity and the elimination of femininity is the foundation for all spiritual and philosophical development. The goal is to go beyond both the masculine and the feminine, but only the masculine can achieve this. In other words, only the active principle can eliminate itself - after it has eliminated the passive principle. The perfect Buddha is neither masculine nor feminine, nor a mix of both - just as Nature itself is none of these things.

* * * * *

Apart from those close to perfection, no one is 100% masculine - just as no one is 100% feminine. Most of us lie somewhere along the spectrum between the two extremes, having a certain amount of both masculinity and femininity. Most women, for example, are about 98% feminine, while most men are around 90% feminine.

At the extreme end of the feminine pole are those who do absolutely nothing with their lives in any shape at all. They lie around all day, watch TV and have other people take care of them. They are indistinguishable from rocks. Going up the scale a touch are the housewives whose husbands take care of them

If I'm not sure about a particular person and I'm having difficulty summing him up, I always look to his views on women/femininity. If he isn't thoroughly disgusted with feminine behaviour, and if he doesn't judge women to be vastly inferior to himself and to other men, then I immediately know he is not destined for greatness. It's clear that he has been taken in by the mediocrity of the world.

* * * * *

Q: How can you call yourself a follower of the Buddha if you believe that women are inherently inferior? It goes against the whole of the Buddha's teaching (which is based on the view that all things lack inherent existence).

A: I don't say that women are *inherently* inferior, only that they are inferior at the present time and have been for thousands of years.

I do agree that no one is intrinsically superior or inferior. We are all equal before God, if you like. However, this doesn't mean that everyone has the same capacity for wisdom.

A thing is only "superior" or "inferior" within a particular context. For example, Bach is often cited as the greatest musical genius of all time. As far as composing music is concerned Bach is probably superior to everyone else, even though it remains true that all people who compose music are equal before God.

Similarly, men and women have different capabilities, different fields of expertise, different values and different goals in life, even though the sexes are equal before God. The existence of these differences implies that men are superior to women in some areas of life, and vice versa.

For example, women are superior to men in the skill of being happy. This is primarily because women are more childlike, more able to live "in the moment" and have a greater ability to lose themselves in their emotions. They have less consciousness and therefore less capacity for suffering. As well, women are probably superior in terms of physical beauty and personal charm and in sharing their emotional life with others. The only problem with these skills and pockets of expertise is that they don't aid one in the quest for enlightenment, and in many ways they hinder it.

One of the major differences between the sexes is that women have very little appreciation of the concept of Truth. Mention to a woman that the most important thing in your life is Ultimate Truth and she will probably stare at you as if you were from another planet. I find that with men, however, there is always an appreciation of it to some small degree. They may never pick up the baton and follow the Truth themselves, but at least they have an inkling that the concept is important in some way. Accordingly, they have a spark in them which women lack.

It mainly stems from upbringing, although part of it is probably genetic as well. Men are brought up to believe that they are consciously responsible for their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Women, on the other hand, are brought up in a cocoon of femininity inside which they can frolic and play to their heart's content. Men create and sustain the cocoon, believing it to be their greatest obligation in life. They willingly form a protective barrier between women and the wild chaos of Nature, and, like loyal servants, attend to their needs inside.

Even in our modern age of feminism, men are still expected to achieve and succeed and assume responsibility for what goes on in the world, whereas women aren't. Achieving something with one's intelligence, or with one's hands, is merely one of several options that lie before a woman, but with men there is no choice. It is a matter of life and death. His status and identity as a man is wholly dependent upon it. A woman's status and identity, by contrast, is already assured by virtue of a fact that she is a woman.

It follows, then, that men, by sheer dent of their lot in life, are forced to face reality more squarely and more intelligently than women. Anyone who is strongly motivated to succeed in this world has to deal far more directly with reality than those who, for whatever reason, lack this motivation. This motivation is deep-rooted in almost all men, having been instilled into them at a very young age, while it is relatively foreign even in the most passionate and single-minded of women.

As a result, a man's consciousness is larger and deeper than a woman's. Its horizons are further, its scope is bigger, its perspective is more realistic, its workings are more coherent and structured, and its knowledge of the world nowhere near as trivial.

Th difference between a man and a woman is like the difference between the eldest and youngest sons in a large family. One is reserved, hard and serious; the other flighty, aimless and sensual.

* * * * *

Q: Men and women may be different to one another, but this doesn't mean that one is strong and the other weak. They each have different abilities and different value systems, that's all.

A: I would say that, in general, women are weak in reasoning about abstract matters and in valuing absolute truth. At the same time, they are strong in living more spontaneously in the moment and in being satisfied with imperfection in general. This is why they are at a large disadvantage when it comes to spiritual life. They lack the sheer hunger for absolute truth, as well as the reasoning skills needed for finding it.

Q: But it could just be that women search for "absolute truth" in a different place than where men search for it. Their paths to get there may not be the same, but the destination may well be.

A: There is really only one path to Truth and that is the path of shedding delusions. People may have different personalities and temperaments, and have different attachments, but everyone is in the same boat in that they have to abandon all falsehood if they want to become involved with Truth.

From my experience, most women secretly believe that they are already perfect - simply due to the fact that they are women! Apart from a bit of tinkering on the sides to make themselves appear more charming and beautiful, they really don't believe there is anything to do.

Put simply, women have no conception of how evil and removed from Truth they really are. Men, on the other hand, having been brought up in our feminine-worshiping society, are thoroughly familiar with the notion that they are evil. Hence, their outlook on life is more realistic. They have a conscience about themselves.

* * * * *

Q: Men are not superior to women in the practice of spirituality. Women are not superior to men in the practice of spirituality. "PEOPLE" may be at different levels of spirituality at different periods of time... Spirituality cannot claim to be a masculine activity nor should it be claimed as such by anyone. It is a process that ANYONE can participate in. All religions or pursuits of higher planes of existence are not the sole domain of any gender! It is open to all who would seek to pursue it.

A: I agree. Anyone can attain enlightenment. Although I claim to be enlightened, I do not claim any monoply over it. Many people have attained enlightenment in the past and many more will do so in the future. I am perfectly open to the possibility that a woman can become a sage.

I am not sexist. I never make judgments upon people based purely on their sex, but only on the quality of their minds. If a woman develops the latent masculinity already within her - i.e. develops her singlemindedness, perserverence, intelligence, courage, desire to achieve greatness, and cultivates a disgust for all lies and a burning desire for Truth - then I see no reason why a woman cannot achieve full integration with Ultimate Reality.

* * * * *

Although I am often called a misogynist, I actually treat women as equals and judge them by the same standards that I judge men. This explains why I think so lowly of them.

* * * * *

Q: Men and women are not the same in appearance. We all know that. But there is not a whisker of difference between them when it comes to their Buddha-Minds. It's important not to be deceived by outward appearances.

A: There is also not a whisker of difference between cows and people when it comes to their Buddha-Minds. However, a cow will never become enlightened, not even if it lives for a million years.

It was Oscar Wilde who said, "Only shallow people don't judge by appearances."

Q: So now you're comparing women to cows. Well, at least its out in the open. I find your views repulsive. I don't see how anyone can doubt that women have Buddha-Minds. Only a bigot could fail to see that men and women are no different when it comes to their Buddha-Minds.

A: If a woman becomes enlightened, then yes, she will realize that there is no difference between her Buddha-Mind and men's. It all hangs on this "if", however.

Q: As a man, how can you possibly know how women perceive things, spiritually or otherwise?

A: All of us have masculinity and femininity inside of us to varying degrees. By studying the "woman" inside of me, I can develop a good understanding of the essence all women. Together with careful observation of the way women (and men) conduct themselves in everyday life, I can come to a very good understanding of a woman's mind.

I admit that it is not an easy task, and requires a lot of courage and honesty. It takes years of hard thinking to come to a good understanding of women. In some ways, understanding women is a lot harder than understanding Ultimate Reality itself.

To my reckoning, only a handful of people (all of them men) in the entire history of the human race had a full grasp of women's psychology. Women themselves have no understanding of who they are, and neither do most men.

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Feel free to ask further questions, if you desire.

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Post by Cory Duchesne »

Below are two excerpts from your essay that struck me the most.
David: only a perfectly enlightened Buddha is entirely without femininity, for only such a being has thoroughly eliminated his ego (together with its feminine and masculine parts).


and
It is the active principle and incorporated into it are the traditional masculine qualities of idealism, courage, persistence, single-mindedness, rationality, independence, and the desire to dominate.

The feminine, on the other hand, is that part of us which is easily contented and loves going with the flow. It incorporates the qualities of unconsciousness, submissiveness, passiveness, absorption in immediacy, indulgence in emotional pleasure, scatteredness, and the desire to minimize one's existence.
David, What I'm not clear about is; after one is perfectly enlightened - what motivates and moves a human being to do anything at all?

For instance, why do you write on the genius forum? Why do you care? Why are you not indifferent?

What is making you act?

Do you consider yourself a boddhisatva, someone who understands liberation but decides against it in favor of employing femininity(love) and masculinity(intellect) to promote the most noble end that you can concieve of, a state beyond femininity and masculinity?

Otherwise I just don't understand how being beyond masculinity and femininity can make anybody anything but simply indifferent, opinionless, unknowing, dead.
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Post by David Quinn »

Cory,
David, What I'm not clear about is; after one is perfectly enlightened - what motivates and moves a human being to do anything at all?

What motivates a tree to bear fruit? It cannot do otherwise. It is in its causes to produce fruit.

Similarly, it is in the causes of the perfectly enlightened person to spontaneously work for the cause of wisdom. He cannot do otherwise. Just as our lungs cannot do anything other than breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, the mind of a sage cannot do anything other than to draw in ignorance and expell wisdom.

Do you consider yourself a boddhisatva, someone who understands liberation but decides against it in favor of employing femininity(love) and masculinity(intellect) to promote the most noble end that you can concieve of, a state beyond femininity and masculinity?

Otherwise I just don't understand how being beyond masculinity and femininity can make anybody anything but simply indifferent, opinionless, unknowing, dead.
Well, certainly, if we were to conjure up an emotion-less, value-less person out of thin air and expect him to start behaving purposefully just like that, we would be disappointed. For there wouldn't be any mechanisms inside him to get him motivated about anything.

But the enlightened sage is not like this. He is the result of many long years of passionate, focused striving for wisdom. His entire being has been refined and shaped around the purpose of promoting wisdom, firstly in his own mind and then in the minds of others. He has literally grown into a creature that actively values wisdom as a matter of course. The notion of sitting around unmotivated, indifferent and opinionless is completely alien to him.

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Post by AlyOshA »

Your article is extensive and must be analyzed in its entirety. But that is impossible (considering the timeframe I’m working in) so please excuse me if I can only question and analyze the pieces and allude to the entirety.

The goal of enlightenment/perfection is very lofty and difficult to reach. It is literally the greatest prize open to the human mind. If someone wants to attain it, they have to be highly motivated, mentally-resilient, aggressive, single-minded, attached to logic, and anti-social. In other words, they have to be masculine.
This is the turning point in your article from which all my disagreement (or misunderstanding if you decide to clarify) is hinged.
Your idea of enlightenment and your methods for obtaining it are very singular (which makes sense because you are only one person). “Aggressive, single-minded, attached to logic, and anti-social,” I could quote many sages: Hindu, Taoist, Christian, Buddhist, and multi-spiritualist (Echart Tolle and Yogiganda) who do not feel that this is the approach to obtaining enlightenment. Mental-resilience goes hand in hand with flexibility and is in direct contrast to single-mindedness. Acceptance and dissolving the illusions of the ego are in direct contrast to Aggressive thought patterns. Logic (and attachment) is something that is entirely human by nature is an inefficient tool for comprehending and experiencing the nature of the illogical (the absolute/God/eternal way). Reclusion can be useful but it is by no means a necessary practice for obtainment.
In simple terms, I define the masculine to be that in us which seeks greatness. It is the active principle and incorporated into it are the traditional masculine qualities of idealism, courage, persistence, single-mindedness, rationality, independence, and the desire to dominate.

The feminine, on the other hand, is that part of us which is easily contented and loves going with the flow. It incorporates the qualities of unconsciousness, submissiveness, passiveness, absorption in immediacy, indulgence in emotional pleasure, scatteredness, and the desire to minimize one's existence.
Single-mindedness, rationality, and the desire to dominate are all practices that I feel can prevent someone from becoming enlightened. Unconsciousness, Submission/acceptance (to the absolute and to the way) are characteristics that I feel are far more useful in the obtainment of enlightenment, but here we are only arguing a means to an end. Buddha never said that this is the way to enlightenment; he only said that this is the way I found enlightenment. But even Buddha would disagree with the qualities that you defined as successful tools for obtaining enlightenment.
Men constantly suppress what little masculinity they have in order to remain pleasing to women. Very rarely, for example, does a man allow his masculinity to infiltrate his personal thought to any significant degree, for the simple reason that masculine forms of thinking tend to be very unpopular with women. When a man becomes more masculine in his thinking, he becomes more independent and solitary in his mind and therefore less concerned with women's desires and more indifferent to their charms. Women, therefore, despise and fear masculine thinkers.
I disagree. Most women (by my experience) are more attracted to the masculine thinkers. The feminine thinkers are the “nice guys” and you know that the “nice guys” or the “sensitive guys” never attract women for anything other than friendship. Most of the guys I know amp up their masculinity around women, they become more competitive, they show off more, they take more risks, they do all that stupid macho bullshit that they feel attracts women – and it works.
The perfect Buddha is neither masculine nor feminine, nor a mix of both - just as Nature itself is none of these things.
What “nature” are you referring to, the nature of our material environment, or the nature of the absolute/eternal?
Going up the scale a touch are the housewives whose husbands take care of them.
It’s most definitely the other way around (or at least in equal proportions). Housewives practically wipe most husbands asses. Most men don’t even know how to pick out their own cloths or do their laundry.
If I'm not sure about a particular person and I'm having difficulty summing him up, I always look to his views on women/femininity. If he isn't thoroughly disgusted with feminine behaviour, and if he doesn't judge women to be vastly inferior to himself and to other men, then I immediately know he is not destined for greatness. It's clear that he has been taken in by the mediocrity of the world.


I can’t even respond to this sentiment. I would be very curious to find out what terrible personal experiences you had that led you to these preposterous conclusions. You must have been very badly damaged at one point (as we all were). This is not a pondering of truth. This is plainly just a narrow opinion.
Mention to a woman that the most important thing in your life is Ultimate Truth and she will probably stare at you as if you were from another planet. I find that with men, however, there is always an appreciation of it to some small degree.
More likely you will get this response from the average guy, “What the fuck are you talking about faggot? Absolute truth? Did college make you queer boy? Shut your mouth and watch the game”.

That’s all I got time for now. Oh and by the way, I only pointed out what I feel are flaws (or you might say misunderstandings) I didn’t mention all the wisdom that I feel is present in this article.
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Post by Cory Duchesne »

David: Going up the scale a touch are the housewives whose husbands take care of them.

Alyosha: It’s most definitely the other way around (or at least in equal proportions). Housewives practically wipe most husbands asses. Most men don’t even know how to pick out their own cloths or do their laundry
I think in many cases the overworked housewife is a myth. During the period where the kids are small and numerous - she is definitely working fairly hard, but without kids, I think she has a lot of free time to sit around and watch TV, gossip on the phone, and shop for needless things.

If she pampers her husband its only because that is how she justifies her lack of virtue. And thus her only virtue is the husbands vice, and thus her own vice.
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Post by AlyOshA »

Cory Patrick;
I think in many cases the overworked housewife is a myth. During the period where the kids are small and numerous - she is definitely working fairly hard, but without kids, I think she has a lot of free time to sit around and watch TV, gossip on the phone, and shop for needless things.

If she pampers her husband its only because that is how she justifies her lack of virtue. And thus her only virtue is the husbands vice, and thus her own vice.
How do you distinguish one type of work as being more virtuous or having more significance than another type of work?

How is cleaning the house, buying groceries, cooking meals, tending the children, and all of the various tasks of maintaining a properly functioning family any less significant then going to an office, staring at a computer screen, surfing the internet (and writing on the genius forum), occasionally scheduling an appointment, answering the phone, and filing paperwork? In fact this could be taken a step further. How is a recluse monk, who spends his days and nights in deep meditation any more valuable to society than a heroin addict? When you put the two of them side by side and analyze their contribution to society, you realize that they are just different sides of the same coin. When you view the various ways and manifestations of people and nature from a high vantage point, observing how the parts work within the whole, you realize that no one part is more important than another. When people talk about escaping reality, I ask what is reality, and how do you escape from it? Is working your 9-5 reality? Is playing videogames and watching TV reality? Is meditating reality? Is shooting heroin reality? Is exercising reality? Is masturbating reality? Is sitting around all day contemplating reality a reality? How is working a 9-5 any more real than cleaning a house and maintaining a family?
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Post by AlyOshA »

Substitute the word reality and significance with truth and virtue and you will arrive at the same conclusions.
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Post by Cory Duchesne »

When you view the various ways and manifestations of people and nature from a high vantage point, observing how the parts work within the whole, you realize that no one part is more important than another.
It really depends on the context. If you have no values, then sure, no one can be said to be anymore important than the other. However, if you go to an intentional community (a.k.a: a commune) where a group of people are living off the land independent from the government - the comunity is going to value individuals who are not addicted to heroin. An individual who is a drug addict is definitely less important and more expendible than one of the hardest working and clearest minded people in the community.

As for housewives.....

I personally don't need a woman to take care of my cooking and cleaning. I clean up after myself when I have the time.

If you are introducing kids into the picture, then I don't think it makes sense to have kids unless you are living in an intentional community where man and woman both take turns working, cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids.

Humans should only have kids when they have established a way of life that is clearminded and healthy.

You shouldnt have kids until your life is in great order.
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Post by David Quinn »

AlyOshA,
Your article is extensive and must be analyzed in its entirety. But that is impossible (considering the timeframe I’m working in) so please excuse me if I can only question and analyze the pieces and allude to the entirety.
No probs.

DQ: The goal of enlightenment/perfection is very lofty and difficult to reach. It is literally the greatest prize open to the human mind. If someone wants to attain it, they have to be highly motivated, mentally-resilient, aggressive, single-minded, attached to logic, and anti-social. In other words, they have to be masculine.

A: This is the turning point in your article from which all my disagreement (or misunderstanding if you decide to clarify) is hinged.
Your idea of enlightenment and your methods for obtaining it are very singular (which makes sense because you are only one person). “Aggressive, single-minded, attached to logic, and anti-social,” I could quote many sages: Hindu, Taoist, Christian, Buddhist, and multi-spiritualist (Echart Tolle and Yogiganda) who do not feel that this is the approach to obtaining enlightenment. Mental-resilience goes hand in hand with flexibility and is in direct contrast to single-mindedness.

The great sages of history have all stressed the importance of single-mindedness.

For example:

The Buddha (in the Dhammapada): Those who are ever watchful, who study day and night, and who strive after Nirvana, their passions will come to an end.

Lao Tzu: The greatest virtue is to follow the Tao, and the Tao alone.

Jesus: The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind.

Ramakrishna: - If you wish to thread the needle, make the thread pointed, and remove all extraneous fibres. Then the thread will pass easily into the eye of the needle. So if thou wishest to concentrate thy heart on God, be meek, humble, poor of spirit, and remove all filaments of desire. -

And so on. These are all high-level sages. If the teachers you mention are not stressing the importance of single-mindedness, or even worse, if they are actively preaching against it, then they are leading people astray.

Mental-resilience goes hand in hand with flexibility and is in direct contrast to single-mindedness.

In my experience, the more I practiced the art of single-mindedness (upon the nature of Reality), the more flexible, resiliant and intuitive my mind became.

Acceptance and dissolving the illusions of the ego are in direct contrast to Aggressive thought patterns.
One has to aggressively confront the bullshit and ignorance in the world, and in oneself. It is the only way to successfully overcome them.

Logic (and attachment) is something that is entirely human by nature is an inefficient tool for comprehending and experiencing the nature of the illogical (the absolute/God/eternal way).

This is a common viewpoint nowadays. It is false on many levels. For example:

- Logic isn't merely a human tool. It is embedded in the very fabric of existence itself. Logic is an expression of A=A, which also happens to be the principle of existence.

- Logic is only limited by our own fears and attachments. Those thinkers who are without fears and attachments are able to apply their logical reasoning to anything they want, for they have nothing to hide or protect. Those who have attachments to protect have a vested interest in keeping logic as limited and ineffectual as possible. Christians, for example, are always the first the throw logic and reason out the window whenever attention is directed towards their beliefs.

- God only seems illogical to illogical minds. The rational thinker who is without attachments and fears is able to logically probe any understanding, experience or picture of God without any problem at all.

The experience of God is essentially no different to the experience of sound or the experience of colours, as far as this matter is concerned. Although neither thought nor logic can capture the direct experience of these things, logic is still able to probe them and reach all sorts of interesting conclusions about them.

Experiencing God is a bit like experiencing Rome. Once you arrive in Rome, you can experience it directly in all its manifold glory, but until then, you still need logic to get you there.

DQ: Men constantly suppress what little masculinity they have in order to remain pleasing to women. Very rarely, for example, does a man allow his masculinity to infiltrate his personal thought to any significant degree, for the simple reason that masculine forms of thinking tend to be very unpopular with women. When a man becomes more masculine in his thinking, he becomes more independent and solitary in his mind and therefore less concerned with women's desires and more indifferent to their charms. Women, therefore, despise and fear masculine thinkers.

A: I disagree. Most women (by my experience) are more attracted to the masculine thinkers. The feminine thinkers are the “nice guys” and you know that the “nice guys” or the “sensitive guys” never attract women for anything other than friendship. Most of the guys I know amp up their masculinity around women, they become more competitive, they show off more, they take more risks, they do all that stupid macho bullshit that they feel attracts women – and it works.

Well, I would personally call that type of behaviour "feminine". Being competitive with other men and taking risks for the sake of attacting females is really a form of vanity, and thus not much better than women obsessing about their hair and dresses. Being a typical macho bozo is not what I would call a masculine thinker!

The truly masculine thinker exclusively directs his competitiveness, risk-taking, and aggressiveness to the conquering of his ignorance alone. He places a far higher value on truth than he does on pleasing women or being social. It is these types of men - who, of course, are very rare - that most woman shy away from in disgust.

DQ: The perfect Buddha is neither masculine nor feminine, nor a mix of both - just as Nature itself is none of these things.

A: What “nature” are you referring to, the nature of our material environment, or the nature of the absolute/eternal?

Both, ultimately. By "Nature" I mean the Infinite/Totality, which necessarily incorporates the physical world, as well as every other possible world.

DQ: Going up the scale a touch are the housewives whose husbands take care of them.

A: It’s most definitely the other way around (or at least in equal proportions). Housewives practically wipe most husbands asses. Most men don’t even know how to pick out their own cloths or do their laundry.

It's a case of the wife pampering her protector to ensure that he is remains happy about doing the protecting.

DQ: If I'm not sure about a particular person and I'm having difficulty summing him up, I always look to his views on women/femininity. If he isn't thoroughly disgusted with feminine behaviour, and if he doesn't judge women to be vastly inferior to himself and to other men, then I immediately know he is not destined for greatness. It's clear that he has been taken in by the mediocrity of the world.

A: I can’t even respond to this sentiment. I would be very curious to find out what terrible personal experiences you had that led you to these preposterous conclusions. You must have been very badly damaged at one point (as we all were). This is not a pondering of truth. This is plainly just a narrow opinion.

Alas, there have been no bad experiences for me. I've simply faced up to the truth that our society is firmly centered around the women and femininty, and is absolutely obssessed with them - to the point of madness.

If a person became obsessed with, say, snails to the same degree that the average person, male or female, is currently obsessed with women and feminine values, he would quickly be locked up in a mental institution and pronounced severly unbalanced. But because the obsession is about women and femininty, it's considered normal.

DQ: Mention to a woman that the most important thing in your life is Ultimate Truth and she will probably stare at you as if you were from another planet. I find that with men, however, there is always an appreciation of it to some small degree.

A: More likely you will get this response from the average guy, “What the fuck are you talking about faggot? Absolute truth? Did college make you queer boy? Shut your mouth and watch the game”.

Well, that hasn't been my experience. Maybe with some of the cruder, more feminine men, you would get that kind of response. But generally speaking, most men do have an inner connection to Absolute Truth which expresses itself as a weightier demeanour, a liking for principles, an attachment to mental consistency, the existence of a conscience, and an appreciation for metaphysics and philosophy.

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Post by Carl G »

David Quinn wrote:
I've simply faced up to the truth that our society is firmly centered around the women and femininty, and is absolutely obssessed with them - to the point of madness.
I'm to the point of seeing this, too, and I must admit it makes me sad. I shouldn't be, as I was once firmly a part of it. And, I will surely get beyond the sadness; it is already mitigated by a great feeling of relief within, a new found freedom from the bondage to woman and womanhood.

However, and this is probably subject for other than this thread, I do still believe that there is value in the feminine principle, as separate from woman and womanhood; ie, there is a time and place for going with the flow, and there is value in valuing the fertility and nurturing of the earth, for instance. I think this pure feminine principle is corrupted in women and men, mostly, though I've seen and felt moments of it in pure form, such as when I felt in sync with the Tao.
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Post by Carl G »

Let me add another thought. The I Ching refers to the feminine principle as The Receptive, and the masculine as The Creative, and indicates that there is a place for each, according to the time.
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Post by David Quinn »

It's easy to confuse the flowiness of the Tao with the flowiness of the feminine, but there is no real connection between them. A person can only enter the flowiness of the Tao via a supreme act of consciousness, triggered by a state of heightened rationality. This is completely unlike the act of resting passively and unconsciously in the flowiness of feminine chaos.

The flowiness of the Tao underlies even the most masculine of behaviour. It doesn't have to be absent, as is the case with femininity, for masculine behaviour to occur.

Also, as one develops along the masculine path to enlightenment, one tends to become more intuitive, flexible, yielding, and accepting, as well as more rational, single-minded, penetrative, and consistent. Some people again confuse this with the idea of becoming more feminine, which isn't the case. For again, the intuitive, flexible, yielding, accepting nature of the female is one of unconsciousness, submissiveness, and a desire not to exist.


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Post by AlyOshA »

Semantics, semantics, semantics curse our feeble attempts at communication.
You have attached the term “masculine” to a set of values and approaches that pertain to your interests; they have absolutely no connection to the actual definitions or connotations of the word masculine in its vastly different uses. The fact that you labeled the “macho bullshit” I laid out, as feminine thinking is completely arbitrary. But I appreciate your attempts. I think you are focusing too intently on defining the term “masculine” which I feel is completely unrelated to the attainment of enlightenment.

If you start connecting such incredibly vague, obtuse associations with a single word like “masculine” it creates a cult-like understanding in the people who follow you and knee-jerk reaction against you with the people who don’t follow you. I really can’t argue with the core of what you are alluding to because I live my life according to those principles. If I were to argue at this point it would just be a mental (ego) exercise.
The great sages of history have all stressed the importance of single-mindedness.

Lao Tzu: The greatest virtue is to follow the Tao, and the Tao alone.

Jesus: The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind.
Yes, but it depends on what you define as single-mindedness. Think of a fly that is stuck in a house bouncing against the window. The fly is single-mindedly pursuing its objective (to get outside/find enlightenment) but is being hindered by the transparent force field (the glass window) in front of it. If, instead of being single-minded, the fly moves away from its objective and takes a look at the broader picture, the fly will see that it is impossible to reach his/her goal with its single-mined pursuit in one direction. Likewise if you single-mindedly and aggressively pursue God/truth without stepping outside of your objective and acknowledging the full spectrum of your inquiry, you are doomed to forever bounce against a transparent force field with your objective plainly in view but completely unattainable.
One has to aggressively confront the bullshit and ignorance in the world, and in oneself. It is the only way to successfully overcome them.
I confronted and overcame the bullshit and ignorance without effort and without aggression. In fact aggression was purely a hindrance (and trust me, someone who has studied martial arts their whole life has plenty of aggression). It wasn’t until I let go and gave up the fight that enlightenment filled my being and true understanding occurred. True, you could argue that if I wasn’t so aggressively in search of the answers in the first place then I would have never reached the stage where I learned to let go, that’s valid, but the ultimate awakening didn’t occur until the aggressiveness ceased.
- Logic isn't merely a human tool. It is embedded in the very fabric of existence itself. Logic is an expression of A=A, which also happens to be the principle of existence.
First, please explain to me how existence follows a pattern of laws, principles, and values. Explain to me the logic in a child developing cancer. A=A. Maybe I just can’t fully comprehend the usefulness of this concept but to me it is way too simple. A=A or on a simple level Purple=Purple. Yes, purple cannot be both purple and non-purple. But purple is a mixture of Red and Blue (in varying degrees). If someone was colorblind and could only see the color purple than that person would have a completely different definition for the color purple (than say yours or mine). If purple was the only color that existed then purple would no longer be considered a color. Purple has significance as a color because of yellow (and the various other colors of the spectrum). Without red and blue, purple could not exist, but red does not need purple to exist. When you isolate concepts within themselves they no longer have meaning (or at least their meaning is hindered). I used the very simple concept of purple, but what if we analyzed something vastly more complex like a human being. A human being has a mind, libido, emotions, physicality, rationality, irrationality, a soul, and so on and so on. A human is capable of loving and hating, sustaining and destroying, creating and mimicking, consciousness and unconsciousness, a human is capable of all these things intermittently and simultaneously. Material existence as observable through the human intellect is even more vast and varying by its nature. People who use A=A to analyze existence are assuming that existence is the only substrate without a comparison. So I will ask you the same question, is non-existence possible?
- Logic is only limited by our own fears and attachments. Those thinkers who are without fears and attachments are able to apply their logical reasoning to anything they want, for they have nothing to hide or protect. Those who have attachments to protect have a vested interest in keeping logic as limited and ineffectual as possible. Christians, for example, are always the first the throw logic and reason out the window whenever attention is directed towards their beliefs.
I agree with you that logic is an incredibly valuable tool. And I am totally against blind faith and the ignorant denial of concrete logic. Please visit my discourse with Mookestink so I don’t have to repeat myself. viewtopic.php?p=24901&highlight=#24901
The experience of God is essentially no different to the experience of sound or the experience of colours, as far as this matter is concerned. Although neither thought nor logic can capture the direct experience of these things, logic is still able to probe them and reach all sorts of interesting conclusions about them.
I agree, but the essential point is that “neither thought nor logic can capture the direct experience of these things”. An Atheist tends to rely solely on rational observations of the material world. He will not find God on this path unless he learns to expand his mind to experience other types of observation. We are truly only arguing semantics at this point but I will continue anyway. Skeptics see the rational, material world and they filter God through those observations. Believers start with God and filter the world through his image. It is important to be both receptive to the real world – what you can see and analyze, but also receptive to the unknown, to psychic existence – to what you feel inside (or the sensation obtained through a serious practice of meditation and transcendence).
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Post by David Quinn »

AlyOshA,
Semantics, semantics, semantics curse our feeble attempts at communication.
You have attached the term “masculine” to a set of values and approaches that pertain to your interests; they have absolutely no connection to the actual definitions or connotations of the word masculine in its vastly different uses. The fact that you labeled the “macho bullshit” I laid out, as feminine thinking is completely arbitrary.

It's not arbitrary. I essentially use the word "masculine" (and "feminine") in the traditional sense. Most people in the world wouldn't have any trouble with how I define each of these terms, and they are pretty much in accord with modern science as well.

At the same time, I think it is important to push on from this traditional framework and distill these terms to their purest essence, thus enabling us to arrive at a conception of what it means to be, say, purely masculine or purely feminine.

For example, the typical macho behaviour of the average male might seem masculine on the surface, with its displays of aggressiveness, domination, competitiveness, etc. And for all intents and purposes, it is masculine when compared to feminine expressions of weakness, submissiveness and passivity. But we need to ask ourselves, is it truly masculine in an absolute sense? Are there any higher forms of masculinity? Are there any purer forms?

When you start asking these sorts of questions, you begin to see that most of what passes for masculine behaviour in our society is actually a mixture of masculinity and femininity - indeed, most of it is predominantly feminine. For example, underlying the aggressiveness and competitiveness of the average macho male is the need for approval, acceptance, love, flattery, sexual pleasure, etc. That is, the core motivation is very feminine in nature.

But I appreciate your attempts. I think you are focusing too intently on defining the term “masculine” which I feel is completely unrelated to the attainment of enlightenment.

If you start connecting such incredibly vague, obtuse associations with a single word like “masculine” it creates a cult-like understanding in the people who follow you and knee-jerk reaction against you with the people who don’t follow you. I really can’t argue with the core of what you are alluding to because I live my life according to those principles. If I were to argue at this point it would just be a mental (ego) exercise.

You make a good point. The dangers you speak of are very real, but nonetheless I still think the terms "masculinity" and "femininity" are far too useful to abandon. They are confronting terms. They excell at burrowing past the conventional way of looking at the world and digging in closer to the core of the ego.

The immense attachment that people have to women and feminine values is a very real problem and needs to be addressed. We can't just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

DQ: The great sages of history have all stressed the importance of single-mindedness.

Lao Tzu: The greatest virtue is to follow the Tao, and the Tao alone.

Jesus: The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind.

A: Yes, but it depends on what you define as single-mindedness. Think of a fly that is stuck in a house bouncing against the window. The fly is single-mindedly pursuing its objective (to get outside/find enlightenment) but is being hindered by the transparent force field (the glass window) in front of it. If, instead of being single-minded, the fly moves away from its objective and takes a look at the broader picture, the fly will see that it is impossible to reach his/her goal with its single-mined pursuit in one direction. Likewise if you single-mindedly and aggressively pursue God/truth without stepping outside of your objective and acknowledging the full spectrum of your inquiry, you are doomed to forever bounce against a transparent force field with your objective plainly in view but completely unattainable.

Well, if the fly were to keep trying to escape, and slowly work its way around the windows, it will eventually find the opening it seeks to the outside. Meanwhile, the fly that sits back and spends its time contemplating the "broader picture" remains stuck inside and is more likely to take an eternity to find an escape, if at all. It will probably starve to death.

I know what you're trying to say. But you're trying to imply that single-mindedness and foolish, blinkered behaviour are synonmous. It doesn't take into account that one can be single-minded in a supremely intelligent way.

DQ: One has to aggressively confront the bullshit and ignorance in the world, and in oneself. It is the only way to successfully overcome them.

A: I confronted and overcame the bullshit and ignorance without effort and without aggression. In fact aggression was purely a hindrance (and trust me, someone who has studied martial arts their whole life has plenty of aggression). It wasn’t until I let go and gave up the fight that enlightenment filled my being and true understanding occurred. True, you could argue that if I wasn’t so aggressively in search of the answers in the first place then I would have never reached the stage where I learned to let go, that’s valid, but the ultimate awakening didn’t occur until the aggressiveness ceased.

What makes you think you are enlightened? Have you resolved all the philosophical problems in the world? Do you understand everything that can ever be known?

DQ: Logic isn't merely a human tool. It is embedded in the very fabric of existence itself. Logic is an expression of A=A, which also happens to be the principle of existence.

A: First, please explain to me how existence follows a pattern of laws, principles, and values. Explain to me the logic in a child developing cancer.

A child develops cancer in the same way that anything else happens in the world - namely, by way of cause and effect. If we could somehow be privy to all the causal factors which lead to the cancer developing in the child, we wouldn't be surprised in the least at seeing the cancer arising.

But I gather from the tone of your question that you are equating logic with "justice" or "fairness". You are thinking that it isn't "fair" for a child to develop cancer and thus it isn't logical. But this kind of thinking is very ego-centric and comes from trying to project your own value-system onto the Universe.

In truth, the Universe doesn't care one little bit for the child. It doesn't care whether the child develops cancer and dies a horrible death, or whether it goes on to live a long life and becomes a great Budda. It is wholly indifferent to such things. Thus, it is entirely "logical" for a child to develop cancer if the causal conditions are ripe.

A=A. Maybe I just can’t fully comprehend the usefulness of this concept but to me it is way too simple. A=A or on a simple level Purple=Purple. Yes, purple cannot be both purple and non-purple. But purple is a mixture of Red and Blue (in varying degrees). If someone was colorblind and could only see the color purple than that person would have a completely different definition for the color purple (than say yours or mine). If purple was the only color that existed then purple would no longer be considered a color. Purple has significance as a color because of yellow (and the various other colors of the spectrum). Without red and blue, purple could not exist, but red does not need purple to exist. When you isolate concepts within themselves they no longer have meaning (or at least their meaning is hindered).

Yes, what you say here is very true. Purple can only find its existence through its contrast with what is not purple, and purple itself is comprised of other colours. All of this conforms with the principle of A=A.

The principle of A=A dictates that purple is exactly what it is. It isn't red or blue or yellow, any other colour or thing in the universe. It isn't the individual colours which comprise it. It has its own identity.

Thus, when people reason logically about purple, it is important for them to properly recognize the identity of purple and not confuse it with the identity of some other colour or thing. If a person, despite being aware of the conventional definition of purple, was to conclude erroneously that purple was a mix of, say, yellow and green, he would be violating the principle of A=A.

In the end, all mistakes in logical reasoning, all confusion and all ignorance are the result of people mentally violating A=A.

I used the very simple concept of purple, but what if we analyzed something vastly more complex like a human being.

The principle is exactly the same.

Material existence as observable through the human intellect is even more vast and varying by its nature. People who use A=A to analyze existence are assuming that existence is the only substrate without a comparison. So I will ask you the same question, is non-existence possible?

Non-existence does exist, yes. When a piece of paper is set alight and quickly burns to ashes, for example, it no longer has the identity of an existing piece of paper.

DQ: Logic is only limited by our own fears and attachments. Those thinkers who are without fears and attachments are able to apply their logical reasoning to anything they want, for they have nothing to hide or protect. Those who have attachments to protect have a vested interest in keeping logic as limited and ineffectual as possible. Christians, for example, are always the first the throw logic and reason out the window whenever attention is directed towards their beliefs.

A: I agree with you that logic is an incredibly valuable tool. And I am totally against blind faith and the ignorant denial of concrete logic. Please visit my discourse with Mookestink so I don’t have to repeat myself. viewtopic.php?p=24901&highlight=#24901

Well, there is a lot to respond to there. For example, I don't agree with the sharp division you make between left-brain and right-brain, or between logic and intuition/creativity.

In essence, intuition and creativity are generated by the making of new connections in the brain, and these can either come about randomly - e.g. through drugs, strong emotion, the hearing of chance words, the intense exploration of non-rational activities such as music or painting, the cultivation of an aimless mentality, etc - or they can come about through the high-powered use of logic. The difference in quality between these two forms of intuition is immense.

When a person becomes highly-logical in their thinking - and I'm not just meaning in a restricted academic sense, but in the sense of logic operating wildly and freely in every aspect of his existence - his intuitive powers can really start to blossom and he is in a position to make those deeper mental connections which can lead to profound insight, and even to enlightenment.

These deeper connections cannot possibly be made if a person rejects, or even downplays, his own logical powers. I really cannot stress this highly enough. The deep truths of life will always be utterly beyond such a person. He will always be confined to making the more trivial connections that are commonly found in mysticism, art and women's thinking.

I also disagree with your views on form and formlessness, but I'll save that for another time, possibly within the "Existence of God" thread itself.

DQ: The experience of God is essentially no different to the experience of sound or the experience of colours, as far as this matter is concerned. Although neither thought nor logic can capture the direct experience of these things, logic is still able to probe them and reach all sorts of interesting conclusions about them.

A: I agree, but the essential point is that “neither thought nor logic can capture the direct experience of these things”.

They are not designed to.

An Atheist tends to rely solely on rational observations of the material world. He will not find God on this path unless he learns to expand his mind to experience other types of observation. We are truly only arguing semantics at this point but I will continue anyway. Skeptics see the rational, material world and they filter God through those observations. Believers start with God and filter the world through his image. It is important to be both receptive to the real world – what you can see and analyze, but also receptive to the unknown, to psychic existence – to what you feel inside (or the sensation obtained through a serious practice of meditation and transcendence).

I agree it is important to be open-minded, intuitive, and receptive to altered states of consciousness. One can learn much through these avenues of experience.

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Post by AlyOshA »

Dammit David Quinn. Did you really have to post this just as I was starting my labor day weekend. Well... to be continued...
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Post by David Quinn »

Don't worry, take your time. It's not a race.

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Post by AlyOshA »

Oh the epic scale of all this!!!
Ok I will give myself 45 minutes to reply ('cause thats alls I gots time fo). I might not be thorough with my response but I will be genuine.

All Quotes David Quinn
Don't worry, take your time. It's not a race.
Of course it’s not a race, I was joking, but humor is hard to portray with words on a computer screen, sometimes we forget how much information we obtain from being in someone’s physical presence.

Let’s see if we can distill masculine and feminine qualities to their absolute sense.
Feminine has the qualities of acceptance, receptiveness, yielding, and nurturing. I am sure you would like to find a way to label all these words as masculine “in their purest sense”, but I think you are only suiting your own interests (and I can’t imagine what those interests are).
Masculine has the qualities of scrutiny, momentum, elimination, and creation.

Now allow me to analyze an AA prayer (it is amazing the places you can find truth when you don’t limit your options).

God grant me the serenity, to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

I feel that this prayer provides an incredibly useful framework both in a practical sense and for the higher objective of finding (and utilizing) the absolute. In this case you need the transcendental (neither masculine nor feminine) quality of serenity, the feminine quality of acceptance, the masculine quality of courage, and the transcendental quality of wisdom. It is fundamentally important to utilize all the capabilities and gifts within all of the diverse manifestations. You are trying to limit yourself, but I think your way is the easy way, not the true way.
Well, if the fly were to keep trying to escape, and slowly work its way around the windows, it will eventually find the opening it seeks to the outside. Meanwhile, the fly that sits back and spends its time contemplating the "broader picture" remains stuck inside and is more likely to take an eternity to find an escape, if at all. It will probably starve to death.
The way you suggest is a possible means of escape but I think it less effective than the way I suggest, in your way the fly will just keep bouncing its head against the wall until there is no wall but an opening. If the fly abandons its single minded objective to view the situation in its entirety, if the fly just pulls back and sees the bigger picture, it will plainly see that that particular window is closed, but the window in the kitchen is open. Which of our ways will take an eternity?
What makes you think you are enlightened? Have you resolved all the philosophical problems in the world? Do you understand everything that can ever be known?
Three things make me think I’m enlightened: I burn sage, I eat tofu, and I wear hemp clothing. (From now on I will label every joke as a joke, and that was a joke.) No I haven’t solved all of the philosophical problems in the world, and I don’t feel that life is a problem to be solved; I don’t feel that life is an equation that requires a formula. The human mind is an organ, just like our stomach. The function of this “highly evolved” organ is to constantly solve problems, even when there aren’t any. Like when we (I’m trying not to be specific) brush our teeth, instead of feeling the bristles against our gums and the oxygen in our lungs, we are probably contemplating some philosophical conundrum, or self deprecating, or dreaming about something that needs to be done later in the day. The mind wants so desperately to categorize life, to fit it into some kind of model or formula, with science or religion. It’s just a constant unease and emptiness from never solving the problem, that nameless, faceless problem, until it finally just fills us up with Cancer. I utilize the problem solving capabilities of the mind but don't confuse that with my true being. I don’t confuse the problems of the mind as being problems with the world.

I think you finally hit the heart of the matter with this question David. So if I answer this, then I expect you to do the same. I will say we, because I don’t want to make assumptions and limit myself.
Enlightenment not only has varying stages and degrees, but also enlightenment can be developed in different areas (enlightenment is manifold). The type of enlightenment that I was describing in the last posting was purely spiritual, or the true sense of the eternal. What was it like; it is like waking up after an entire lifetime of dreaming. Every step we take, we feel the ground under our feet, when we brush our teeth we can feel the bristles against our gums, and oxygen being drawn into our lungs, and most importantly, our innards are radiating with completeness, a true contentment that connects us with all of our surrounding existence and separates us from our ego. But this is only one of the manifold qualities and it has not reached its completion (in me). I will not let it reach its completion until I am an old man who is ready to abandon all of material existence, and completely separate myself from the physical world. Another is to understand our purpose, our way (or according to Maslow -- our calling), to know our part in the orchestra of material existence, like a bee who is so actively and effortlessly fulfilling its purpose and doing its duties. Humans are vastly more complex than bees, so our understanding of this purpose is more conscious than a bee’s, but when we see our calling and utilize our way to its utmost potential, then we will have obtained another quality of enlightenment. To be spiritually complete with a keen self-awareness, an innately fine tuned intuition, with the capabilities to constantly learn, adapt, and better ones tools, acknowledging the entire spectrum, and seeing how the parts function within the whole, these are the qualities of someone who is enlightened in the summer of their lifetime.
A child develops cancer in the same way that anything else happens in the world - namely, by way of cause and effect.
This is a very “Western” and scientific view of the world. I acknowledge this. But take a moment to forget your programming. A good analysis of the Eastern concept is called “synchronicity” as coined by Carl Jung (not an exact quotation):
Our science is based upon the principle of causality, and causality was considered to be an axiomatic truth (but modern physics is changing all of this). What we term natural laws are merely statistical truths and thus must necessarily allow for exceptions. We have not sufficiently taken into account as yet that we need the laboratory with its incisive restrictions in order to demonstrate the invariable validity of natural law. If we leave things to nature, we see a very different picture: every process is partially or totally interfered with by chance, so much so that under natural circumstances a course of events absolutely conforming to specific laws is almost an exception. The I Ching (and various other Eastern approaches) is almost exclusively preoccupied with the chance aspect of events. Coincidence is the chief concern, and causality is barely noticed. We must admit that there is something to be said for the immense importance of chance. An incalculable amount of human effort is directed to combating and restricting the nuisance or danger of chance. Theoretical considerations often look pale and dusty in the caparison to the practical results of chance. It is all very well to say that a crystal of quartz is a hexagonal prism. The statement is quite true in so far as the ideal crystal is envisaged. But in nature one finds no two crystals exactly alike, although all are unmistakably hexagonal. The actual form becomes more important than the ideal form. The jumble of natural laws constituting empirical reality holds more significance than a causal explanation of events that moreover, must usually be separated from one another in order to be properly dealt with. The moment under actual observation is more of a chance hit than a clearly defined result of concurring causal chain processes. The matter of interest seems to be the configuration formed by chance events in the moment of observation, and not at all the hypothetical reasons that seemingly account for the coincidence. While the Western mind carefully sifts, weighs, selects, classifies, isolates, the Chinese picture of the moment encompasses everything down to the minutest nonsensical detail, because all of the ingredients make up the observed moment. This assumption involves a certain curious principle that I have termed synchronicity, a concept that formulates a point of view diametrically opposed to that of causality. Since the latter is a merely statistical truth and not absolute, it is a sort of working hypothesis of how events evolve one out another, whereas synchronicity takes the coincidence of events in space and time as meaning something more than mere chance, namely, a peculiar interdependence of objective events among themselves as well as with the subjective (psychic) states of the observer or observers. (This has actually been proven recently when scientists isolated atoms and found that they behaved differently under the physical observation of the scientist).
The casual point of view tells us a dramatic story about how D came into existence: it took its origin from C, which existed before D, and C in its turn had a father, B, etc. The synchronistic view on the other hand tries to produce an equally meaningful picture of coincidence. How does it happen that A’,B’,C’,D’, etc., appear all in the same moment and in the same place? It happens in the first place because the physical events A’ and B’ are of the same quality as the psychic events C’ and D’, and further because all are the exponents of one and the same momentary situation. The situation is assumed to represent a legible or understandable picture. That only scratches the surface, but I think it gives you an idea and gets the ball rolling.
But I gather from the tone of your question that you are equating logic with "justice" or "fairness".
I’m afraid that you couldn’t be farther from the truth David. “Justice” and “fairness” have nothing to do with why I consider the chance oriented, interdependent, and situational unfolding of events as illogical and incomprehensible to the rationally deducing mind.
In truth, the Universe doesn't care one little bit for the child. It doesn't care whether the child develops cancer and dies a horrible death, or whether it goes on to live a long life and becomes a great Budda. It is wholly indifferent to such things. Thus, it is entirely "logical" for a child to develop cancer if the causal conditions are ripe.
I totally agree that the universe doesn’t care for the child. But I disagree that this is entirely “logical” by causal conditions. If you want to understand the unconscious, then you have to develop a psychic/intuitive understanding as well as a rational and logical understanding, both are equally necessary (just as both masculine and feminine characteristics are equally necessary).
In the end, all mistakes in logical reasoning, all confusion and all ignorance are the result of people mentally violating A=A.


Sure but how does this formula encapsulate (or lead one to) an understanding of the absolute/eternal?
Well, there is a lot to respond to there. For example, I don't agree with the sharp division you make between left-brain and right-brain, or between logic and intuition/creativity.
No sharp division, I was merely pointing out the necessity to utilize all the tools of understanding. I was stressing this, merely to point out how some people single-mindedly get trapped with one approach (like our poor fly did).
When a person becomes highly-logical in their thinking - and I'm not just meaning in a restricted academic sense, but in the sense of logic operating wildly and freely in every aspect of his existence - his intuitive powers can really start to blossom and he is in a position to make those deeper mental connections which can lead to profound insight, and even to enlightenment.
The rest of this I agree with, except for the part about “women’s thinking” you foolish bastard (joke). Really we are just attaching different significance to the term logic. I associate logic with science, mathematics, and western philosophy. I consider these approaches as equally significant to the creative processes associated with painting and music. I am going to guess that you are not an artist. Because an artist knows that their greatest work comes from the lack of thinking, when they tap into an unconscious zone where originality emerges effortlessly. This zone is different but comparable to the zone an athlete enters at the peak of their performance. Likewise (but on a different matter) you can use logic to analyze intuition, but intuition does not emerge from logical deduction or inquiry.
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Cory Duchesne
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Post by Cory Duchesne »

David wrote,
Experiencing God is a bit like experiencing Rome. Once you arrive in Rome, you can experience it directly in all its manifold glory, but until then, you still need logic to get you there.
David, here it seems like your saying; despite it requires logic in order to get to Rome, the actual direct experiencing of Rome is ultimately un-rational.

Also, you say that experiencing God, like experiencing Rome or a great mountain, is an experience of 'manifold glory'.

What role does feeling and sensation have with this ultimate experience of God?

I was reading a discussion in the wordly matters thread (blockages to enlightenment) - - you and Solway were contributing to the thread quite a bit - - discussion focused quite a bit on the deactivation of the sex drive. You were suggesting that eventually we will be birthing humans in incubation chambers.

I caught myself wondering: Are Quinn and Solway advocating the deactivation of ALL feeling and sensation?

If humanity becomes so logical, cautious and thoughtful that they are absolutely numb and devoid of feeling (beyond despair and depression of course) - - -what would stop the sages from suggesting that the human race should just gently bring an end to itself?

I would say the only thing that would keep humanity going would be great 'feelings' and 'sensations'.

Otherwise, if the destiny of man is to become 'absolutely' unresponsive sensually, incapable of being 'awed' or undesiring of sensation and feeling - - then what would be the point in living?

Wouldn't he be indifferent one way or the other? If life wasnt mysterious in anyway and if a sense of awe and a feeling of magnamity were absolutely snuffed -- I would think that a person at that stage might reason that living isnt worth the effort.

So, it seems to be that - you guys are placing tremendous importance on masculinity because, the greater the masculity, the greater quality ones femininty.

Am I wrong?
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Post by AlyOshA »

DQ:
For example, I don't agree with the sharp division you make between left-brain and right-brain, or between logic and intuition/creativity.
Here is something you probably already know, but when speaking scientifically, I think it confirms my theory of varying brain functions nicely.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/46/16369
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Post by sky »

dq
It's not arbitrary. I essentially use the word "masculine" (and "feminine") in the traditional sense. Most people in the world wouldn't have any trouble with how I define each of these terms, and they are pretty much in accord with modern science as well.
dq
To be honest, women don't really mean much to me at all. I rarely think about them, and I'm only inspired to do so when I see people praising them so much, which they tend to do all the time.
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Post by David Quinn »

Cory,
DQ: Experiencing God is a bit like experiencing Rome. Once you arrive in Rome, you can experience it directly in all its manifold glory, but until then, you still need logic to get you there.

C: David, here it seems like your saying; despite it requires logic in order to get to Rome, the actual direct experiencing of Rome is ultimately un-rational.

That's right. You have to use logic to determine, or even re-determine when you are there, that this is really Rome. But as for the actual experience of Rome itself, it is neither rational nor irrational. Such categories don't apply to it.

In other words, the actual experience is beyond logic and illogic, while the subject of what you are experiencing (whether it be Rome or God) isn't.

Also, you say that experiencing God, like experiencing Rome or a great mountain, is an experience of 'manifold glory'.

What role does feeling and sensation have with this ultimate experience of God?

Sensation and feeling has everything to do with it, for these elements are the very stuff of experience itself. There is no emotional overlay, however. The ultimate experience of God is something which is beyond the emotions to grasp, and infinitely greater than them.

I was reading a discussion in the wordly matters thread (blockages to enlightenment) - - you and Solway were contributing to the thread quite a bit - - discussion focused quite a bit on the deactivation of the sex drive. You were suggesting that eventually we will be birthing humans in incubation chambers.

I caught myself wondering: Are Quinn and Solway advocating the deactivation of ALL feeling and sensation?

No, only those feelings and sensations which spring from deluded thinking. What the sage experiences is pure, in that the sensations and feelings he experiences are undistorted by irrational thinking and projected delusions. He doesn't place any value on these sensations or feelings. He lets them come and go as they please. He never tries to freeze them and make a home in them.

If humanity becomes so logical, cautious and thoughtful that they are absolutely numb and devoid of feeling (beyond despair and depression of course) - - -what would stop the sages from suggesting that the human race should just gently bring an end to itself?

Nothing, if that is what they think would be best for the cause of wisdom.

But I'm not sure that the emotions can boast of any superiority in this department. One could seriously ask the question: If humans are so full of emotions and irrational feelings, what is to stop humanity from rampantly causing its own extinction in a fit of rage? And by the look of what is currently happening around us, the answer would have to be - not much.

I would say the only thing that would keep humanity going would be great 'feelings' and 'sensations'.

Otherwise, if the destiny of man is to become 'absolutely' unresponsive sensually, incapable of being 'awed' or undesiring of sensation and feeling - - then what would be the point in living?

Wouldn't he be indifferent one way or the other? If life wasnt mysterious in anyway and if a sense of awe and a feeling of magnamity were absolutely snuffed -- I would think that a person at that stage might reason that living isnt worth the effort.

So, it seems to be that - you guys are placing tremendous importance on masculinity because, the greater the masculity, the greater quality ones femininty.

Am I wrong?
If by "femininity", you mean experience, you would be perfectly right. Other than that, it wouldn't make much sense to talk about a greater quality unconsciousness, or a greater quality chaos, or a greater quality incoherency, etc.

-
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

AlyOshA wrote:DQ:
For example, I don't agree with the sharp division you make between left-brain and right-brain, or between logic and intuition/creativity.
Here is something you probably already know, but when speaking scientifically, I think it confirms my theory of varying brain functions nicely.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/46/16369
Adam, are you sure you gave the right link? Because this article only concluded:
The differences in baseline activity reported here suggest that the resting state of the brain may be altered by long-term meditative practice and imply that such alterations may affect task-related changes.
If you'd delve more into brain and neurological research of the last decade or so, you'll find that it will support Quinn's statement of there being no sharp division at all between a supposed "left-brain" and "right-brain", or between logic and intuition/creativity. If you can come up with something different please let us know.
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Post by Jason »

David,
DavidQuinn000 wrote:Cory,
DQ: Experiencing God is a bit like experiencing Rome. Once you arrive in Rome, you can experience it directly in all its manifold glory, but until then, you still need logic to get you there.

C: David, here it seems like your saying; despite it requires logic in order to get to Rome, the actual direct experiencing of Rome is ultimately un-rational.


DQ: That's right. You have to use logic to determine, or even re-determine when you are there, that this is really Rome. But as for the actual experience of Rome itself, it is neither rational nor irrational. Such categories don't apply to it.
The difference being that Rome has a limited location, but "God"(a shitty word, too soiled by idiotic religions) is everywhere. Tell me David, if "God" is everywhere, why would you ever need to determine that you really are in "Rome"? How could you ever not be?
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Post by AlyOshA »

Diebert:
If you'd delve more into brain and neurological research of the last decade or so, you'll find that it will support Quinn's statement of there being no sharp division at all between a supposed "left-brain" and "right-brain", or between logic and intuition/creativity. If you can come up with something different please let us know.
Sure. This is an interesting article. http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/brain/.

This article also glazes over some of the research done on meditation and brain functioning. Notice I never concluded that the two halves of the brain do not work together, I only noted that different activities could be associated with different areas of the brain (especially on the basic levels of speech and image recognition). I didn't mean to be so simplistic as to imply that creativity is the sole responsibility of the right brain; of course it is way more complex than that. The current research on meditation suggests that someone (who has been practicing meditation for extensive periods of time) is utilizing and exciting different areas of the brain simultaneously and that this activity is dissimilar to any of the other activities of average cognitive functioning (that is any brain states outside of meditation). It also suggests that meditation has a lasting effect on cognitive functioning when the practitioner is not meditating. But my ultimate point was simply to accentuate the importance of using other capabilities of our mind. Do you notice a profound difference between Eastern and Western philosophy and the different types of thought processes in place? Do you think that different cultures develop different types of logic? Do you think the mental processes of an Asian are different than those of an African or an American? The reason I brought brain functioning into this was because I misjudged Mookestink as being someone who wanted scientific understanding, and I think the research on meditation validates that there is scientific evidence behind altered states of consciousness. Are you familiar with the Monroe Institute? http://www.monroeinstitute.com/
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Post by AlyOshA »

The bible for every serious artist is a book called "Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards. Check it out, it might not bring scientific evidence to the table, but it demonstrates how certain cognitive functions work differently than others and can even inhibit the others from being fully utilized. Just ask my boy Kazuhiro Tsuji.
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