open up your own mind to the Source directly.
A MAN NEVER ARGUES WITH A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN - OH BUT I INSIST
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David Quinn
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sky wrote:
If I lived in a society in which everyiong was fixated, say, on trees - you know, where endless movies were created about relationships with trees; where endless songs crooned their love for canopies, leafiness and bark; where novels frequently described stories of glorious back-rubbing incidents against rough trunks; where 80% of retail space in shopping malls were dedicted solely to the grooming and pampering of trees; where people daily murdered each other and committed suicide because their trees rejected them, and so on - and if I was a fellow who valued sanity and the wisdom of non-attachment, then naturally I would be very concerned about the situation before me. In fact, I would be but a finger-snap away from concluding that Planet Earth was a giant madhouse.
Moreover, if I were to stand up for the values of sanity and non-attachment in this society and point out the madness of this relentless obsession with trees, what do you think the response would be? I would be howled down by all and sundry and accused of being a tree-hater, of having bad experiences with trees, of having emotional problems, and so on. I would even be accused of having a fixation on trees!
Oh, the irony.
No, the comedy is just too rich. As our resident anonymous crier hiding in the stands would say: It's Hilarious!
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In normal life, it is called taking a deep interest in human psychology, which is an important philosophic skill.DQ: I am fixated upon the fixation.
lol in music that would be called secondary dominance
so whether it is woman as individuals or woman because society praises them (that really galls you as everyone can plainly see even a so called mindless soulless female as i allegedly am) or even abstractly 'the fixation on woman' you david are still being dominated by woman
If I lived in a society in which everyiong was fixated, say, on trees - you know, where endless movies were created about relationships with trees; where endless songs crooned their love for canopies, leafiness and bark; where novels frequently described stories of glorious back-rubbing incidents against rough trunks; where 80% of retail space in shopping malls were dedicted solely to the grooming and pampering of trees; where people daily murdered each other and committed suicide because their trees rejected them, and so on - and if I was a fellow who valued sanity and the wisdom of non-attachment, then naturally I would be very concerned about the situation before me. In fact, I would be but a finger-snap away from concluding that Planet Earth was a giant madhouse.
Moreover, if I were to stand up for the values of sanity and non-attachment in this society and point out the madness of this relentless obsession with trees, what do you think the response would be? I would be howled down by all and sundry and accused of being a tree-hater, of having bad experiences with trees, of having emotional problems, and so on. I would even be accused of having a fixation on trees!
Oh, the irony.
No, the comedy is just too rich. As our resident anonymous crier hiding in the stands would say: It's Hilarious!
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David:
You think 'Something's Wrong' and it's a 'Tragedy'.
Your Nature is to try and 'Fix It'.
When a Rescuer goes in to try and 'Fix It'...the first thing the Rescuer does is postulate who the Perpetrator of the Wrong is...
There's a vast Menu of choices available to pin the blame on...you've selected Woman/Femininity.
It's Hilarious...hahahaha
Geddit?
frank
It is indeed fabulously rich Comedy David...to this Observer.No, the comedy is just too rich. As our resident anonymous crier hiding in the stands would say: It's Hilarious!
You think 'Something's Wrong' and it's a 'Tragedy'.
Your Nature is to try and 'Fix It'.
When a Rescuer goes in to try and 'Fix It'...the first thing the Rescuer does is postulate who the Perpetrator of the Wrong is...
There's a vast Menu of choices available to pin the blame on...you've selected Woman/Femininity.
It's Hilarious...hahahaha
Geddit?
frank
dq
that is pretty funny
dqDQ: I am fixated upon the fixation.
sky
lol in music that would be called secondary dominance
am i to infer from this that music is somehow deviant from 'normal life'In normal life, it is called taking a deep interest in human psychology, which is an important philosophic skill.
that is pretty funny
I'll try and show you where your Logic is completely awry David.
You think Woman/Femininity is the problem.
You are living like a Prosecutor building a Case against Woman/Femininity and arguing this Case in a Website you've put together for that purpose...
You are presenting 'evidence' to support your Case.
In other threads you are arguing a Case that 'things lack inherent existence'...'lack impermanence'...arise out of Cause and Effect...
'Woman' arises out of the Tao, so to speak, as a Creation of the Tao...
How can She be Wrong?
She is the Wrong Target for your Complaint!
Your Complaint, Logically, is with the Tao!
You say you Live in accord with the Tao while persisting in the notion that something is Wrong with it...
QRS looks very much like an erstwhile Legal Firm engaged in prosecuting the Tao...
It is Hilarious.
Enlightenment is often referred to as a 'Groundless State'...
You have no grounds for complaint, no grounds for arguing imperfection, wrongness, rightness...no grounds for arguing superiority/inferiority...
When you are doing that you are trying to 'put ground' under yourself to 'stand on'....
You are unconciously playing a Neanderthal Male Ego Game called 'Me Tarzan/You Jane'...
In order to aggrandise yourself as an 'Illustrious Member of the Superior Faction' in all the Universe...
Give up 'Something's Wrong'.
frank
You think Woman/Femininity is the problem.
You are living like a Prosecutor building a Case against Woman/Femininity and arguing this Case in a Website you've put together for that purpose...
You are presenting 'evidence' to support your Case.
In other threads you are arguing a Case that 'things lack inherent existence'...'lack impermanence'...arise out of Cause and Effect...
'Woman' arises out of the Tao, so to speak, as a Creation of the Tao...
How can She be Wrong?
She is the Wrong Target for your Complaint!
Your Complaint, Logically, is with the Tao!
You say you Live in accord with the Tao while persisting in the notion that something is Wrong with it...
QRS looks very much like an erstwhile Legal Firm engaged in prosecuting the Tao...
It is Hilarious.
Enlightenment is often referred to as a 'Groundless State'...
You have no grounds for complaint, no grounds for arguing imperfection, wrongness, rightness...no grounds for arguing superiority/inferiority...
When you are doing that you are trying to 'put ground' under yourself to 'stand on'....
You are unconciously playing a Neanderthal Male Ego Game called 'Me Tarzan/You Jane'...
In order to aggrandise yourself as an 'Illustrious Member of the Superior Faction' in all the Universe...
Give up 'Something's Wrong'.
frank
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Kevin Solway
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Only insofar as femininity is defined to be identical to unconsciousness or ignorance.frank wrote:You think Woman/Femininity is the problem.
Wrongness itself arises out of the Tao, yet it is still wrong.'Woman' arises out of the Tao, so to speak, as a Creation of the Tao...
How can She be Wrong?
Any "complaint" with the Tao comes from the Tao itself.You say you Live in accord with the Tao while persisting in the notion that something is Wrong with it...
The Tao is the grounds for all things.You have no grounds for complaint
You believe there is something wrong with saying "Something's wrong". So why don't you follow your own advice?Give up 'Something's Wrong'.
solway:
There's a range of possible 'Viewing Platforms' unless you didn't notice...
You're calling your set of Binoculars...the Genius Configuration.
You put the ground under yourself with your mental state...you create your World with your Thinking.
I enjoy the Show...it's Funny.
As a Possibility 'give up Something's Wrong'..
Try it out.
frank
As defined by Tarzan.Only insofar as femininity is defined to be identical to unconsciousness or ignorance.
What's Wrong?Wrongness itself arises out of the Tao, yet it is still wrong.
Complaints arise from the Observation Point or Mental State you are 'inhabiting' at the present moment...Any "complaint" with the Tao comes from the Tao itself.
There's a range of possible 'Viewing Platforms' unless you didn't notice...
You're calling your set of Binoculars...the Genius Configuration.
The Tao is possibilities.The Tao is the grounds for all things.
You put the ground under yourself with your mental state...you create your World with your Thinking.
No I don't..it's fine.You believe there is something wrong with saying "Something's wrong". So why don't you follow your own advice?
I enjoy the Show...it's Funny.
As a Possibility 'give up Something's Wrong'..
Try it out.
frank
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David Quinn
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David Quinn
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Yes, just as you are part of a group of attorneys arguing against this case. Accept it and deal with it.
And since you ignored my question, I will tell you why you haven't yet starved to death. It's because each day you have noticed that Something is Wrong (namely, your stomach is empty) and thus each day you have consumed some meals "in order to" Fix the Problem.
In the same way, the sage spends his time tending to the spiritual starving in the world.
Hilarious, isn't it?
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And since you ignored my question, I will tell you why you haven't yet starved to death. It's because each day you have noticed that Something is Wrong (namely, your stomach is empty) and thus each day you have consumed some meals "in order to" Fix the Problem.
In the same way, the sage spends his time tending to the spiritual starving in the world.
Hilarious, isn't it?
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David:
It's just a Condition of What Is...
Nothing to Fix.
frank
What could possibly be Wrong about my Stomach being Empty...?And since you ignored my question, I will tell you why you haven't yet starved to death. It's because each day you have noticed that Something is Wrong (namely, your stomach is empty) and thus each day you have consumed some meals "in order to" Fix the Problem.
It's just a Condition of What Is...
Nothing to Fix.
frank
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Kevin Solway
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David Quinn
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dq
no encores
this is a lofty goal if it is actually authentically accurate and genuinely authentically egoless and with absolutely pure intent that is one thing
but to tell you the truth i doubt it
that is my honest perception
it is not competition nor judgement
i could be wrong i am not attached to being right
i am not invested other than pure expression of my own thinking
because i think pretty well
and i most definitely think for myself
i can get you afadavits
other than that i think your communications skills are not persuasive you do not have the gift of rapport
rapport is key in convincing
because if you start by looking for what you have in common you are mostly likely to truly communicate
but you want to sell your agenda
and you cut a tough deal
but that only works if you have very eager buyers
which would never be universal
global
six billion plus people on the planet and more becoming part of the www every day
it is the opportunity of more than a lifetime
but i don't think this attachment to the masuline as the elimination of the feminine trip is going to help you
so if your goal is really that lofty
and you really have that much to offer
then i think you need to
do some serious rethinking
david you get my last two poststhen it is equally okay to fix the world's ignorance.
no encores
this is a lofty goal if it is actually authentically accurate and genuinely authentically egoless and with absolutely pure intent that is one thing
but to tell you the truth i doubt it
that is my honest perception
it is not competition nor judgement
i could be wrong i am not attached to being right
i am not invested other than pure expression of my own thinking
because i think pretty well
and i most definitely think for myself
i can get you afadavits
other than that i think your communications skills are not persuasive you do not have the gift of rapport
rapport is key in convincing
because if you start by looking for what you have in common you are mostly likely to truly communicate
but you want to sell your agenda
and you cut a tough deal
but that only works if you have very eager buyers
which would never be universal
global
six billion plus people on the planet and more becoming part of the www every day
it is the opportunity of more than a lifetime
but i don't think this attachment to the masuline as the elimination of the feminine trip is going to help you
so if your goal is really that lofty
and you really have that much to offer
then i think you need to
do some serious rethinking
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Kevin Solway
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spiritual_emergency
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How can you possibly know what ego collapse/ego death is like if you're still unenlightened?
I'm not the one who equates ego death with enlightenment. You are. Therefore, it's not my question to answer. You may find the book, Halfway up the Mountain [http://www.vedanta.com/showbook.cfm?booknum=10000761] to be useful to you.
Thanks for the link you provided, Wild Fox Zen -- I've bookmarked it. No, I wouldn't say that oceanic consciousness matches my personal definition of enlightenment, although I would say that oceanic consciousness is a stage along the way to enlightenment. I particularly enjoyed this excerpt...
Creative space is called the ‘Great Mother’, the ‘womb of potentiality’. Because that is the quality of spaciousness - it gives rise to form. The quality of spaciousness is not that nothing is there. [laughs] ‘Nothing’ is there - but many ‘somethings’ are there too, and they’re all coming and going.
Meantime, this quote was timely...
Yes, of course, I was forgetting about cults. That is actually a brilliant definition of a cult: a religion based on the projection of ‘total individuation’ in terms of the cult leader who is the focal point. He or she is the only one allowed to totally individuate, and everyone else shares in that according to their capacity to sublimate themselves to the leader’s personality.
And now, like Sky, it's time for me to go.
I'm not the one who equates ego death with enlightenment. You are. Therefore, it's not my question to answer. You may find the book, Halfway up the Mountain [http://www.vedanta.com/showbook.cfm?booknum=10000761] to be useful to you.
Thanks for the link you provided, Wild Fox Zen -- I've bookmarked it. No, I wouldn't say that oceanic consciousness matches my personal definition of enlightenment, although I would say that oceanic consciousness is a stage along the way to enlightenment. I particularly enjoyed this excerpt...
Creative space is called the ‘Great Mother’, the ‘womb of potentiality’. Because that is the quality of spaciousness - it gives rise to form. The quality of spaciousness is not that nothing is there. [laughs] ‘Nothing’ is there - but many ‘somethings’ are there too, and they’re all coming and going.
Meantime, this quote was timely...
Yes, of course, I was forgetting about cults. That is actually a brilliant definition of a cult: a religion based on the projection of ‘total individuation’ in terms of the cult leader who is the focal point. He or she is the only one allowed to totally individuate, and everyone else shares in that according to their capacity to sublimate themselves to the leader’s personality.
And now, like Sky, it's time for me to go.
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David Quinn
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David Quinn
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sky wrote:
Still, I can't see myself changing anytime soon. I expect people to come up to my level; I don't see a need to lower myself in order to stroke people's egos or pander to their irrationalities. I'm quite content to confine my communications to the few.
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In my experience, I have a strong rapport with anyone who values reason to a very high degree - which means, of course, that I only have a rapport with a few people on this earth.other than that i think your communications skills are not persuasive you do not have the gift of rapport
rapport is key in convincing
Still, I can't see myself changing anytime soon. I expect people to come up to my level; I don't see a need to lower myself in order to stroke people's egos or pander to their irrationalities. I'm quite content to confine my communications to the few.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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DQ wrote:
I've noticed that I may act less sanely when I am in love, and it is obvious that a lot of people act insanely when they are in love. There are things that I rather dislike about the state of being in love and have sometimes had the unintelligent wish that there was just love, and never the state of being "in love."
I now believe that there is the possibility of being in love and not participating in the insanity of the state. To do that, it would take judicious allocation of feelings, and the ability to dismiss or let go of feelings at appropriate times. For example, to "forget" that one is in love when it is more appropriate to be concentrating on work, and to dismiss the state of being in love when it contributes to painful feelings (which are often a result of looking at something illogically).
Love can also be a powerful motivator to do good things, and it is a state that can both make life more enjoyable and contribute to one's health and longevity as a result of the biochemical state that it induces.
Do you think that I am on target David?
I believe that I understand your real point, and I don't think it's really about women (well, for you specifically it might be), and if I understand you correctly, then I agree with your point.if I were to stand up for the values of sanity and non-attachment in this society and point out the madness of this relentless obsession with trees
I've noticed that I may act less sanely when I am in love, and it is obvious that a lot of people act insanely when they are in love. There are things that I rather dislike about the state of being in love and have sometimes had the unintelligent wish that there was just love, and never the state of being "in love."
I now believe that there is the possibility of being in love and not participating in the insanity of the state. To do that, it would take judicious allocation of feelings, and the ability to dismiss or let go of feelings at appropriate times. For example, to "forget" that one is in love when it is more appropriate to be concentrating on work, and to dismiss the state of being in love when it contributes to painful feelings (which are often a result of looking at something illogically).
Love can also be a powerful motivator to do good things, and it is a state that can both make life more enjoyable and contribute to one's health and longevity as a result of the biochemical state that it induces.
Do you think that I am on target David?
oh david i was wondering if you might just let it be for once
once again you pull out something you can refute and leave a lot of significance behind
i am not certain that philosophy > enlightenment
that philosophy is both the necessary and sufficient condition for enlightenment
your loftiness is a loftiness looking down there is pride there
you should read the last lines of thomas moore's 'utopia' about pride
i think englightenment is about the loft that keeps a bird aloft or a plane
high and free pure and serene
beyond thinking of being above anyone it has no relevance
now you know that no matter what you say you are not going to convince that i don't have a soul am mindless and am not destined for enlightenment
re pandering
buddha and christ drew people to them like bees or ants to honey
and their message was so absolutely on the mark that anyone could at whatever level receive truth
chirst and buddha both humbled themselves and that is the mark of their authenticity
dq from another forum
once again you pull out something you can refute and leave a lot of significance behind
i am not certain that philosophy > enlightenment
that philosophy is both the necessary and sufficient condition for enlightenment
your loftiness is a loftiness looking down there is pride there
you should read the last lines of thomas moore's 'utopia' about pride
i think englightenment is about the loft that keeps a bird aloft or a plane
high and free pure and serene
beyond thinking of being above anyone it has no relevance
now you know that no matter what you say you are not going to convince that i don't have a soul am mindless and am not destined for enlightenment
re pandering
buddha and christ drew people to them like bees or ants to honey
and their message was so absolutely on the mark that anyone could at whatever level receive truth
chirst and buddha both humbled themselves and that is the mark of their authenticity
dq from another forum
It's a bit like a bird breaking out of its shell. The crackling noises of the shell being broken, the sudden blast of fresh air, the new array of noises - these are like the "awakenings" experienced in the early stages of the spiritual path. But then the bird suddenly leaves all that behind and flies off into the sky in complete freedom. He no longer has to struggle against the shell. Similarly, the developing philosopher soon reaches the stage where he no longer has a need for awakenings. He is already awake.
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Kevin Solway
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Remember that Jesus used to say "Let those hear, who have ears to hear". Many people do not have ears to hear.sky wrote:and their message was so absolutely on the mark that anyone could at whatever level receive truth
In the Dhammapada, the Buddha says, "If a fool be associated with a wise man even all his life, he will perceive the truth as little as a spoon perceives the taste of soup."