Existence of God

[Kevin Solway]

Just heard a classic argument a minute ago on an interview with an Australian celebrity who has converted to Christianity.

He argues that you can't reason about the existence of God, because you can't out-think God. (?)

Further, he says that if God doesn't exist, then the question's not worth thinking about.

So whether God exists or not, it's not worth thinking about it, apparently.

[Jamesh]

Missed Denton. I'm wondering if Willesee has had a lot of medical problems or deaths in immediate family. I can read the shows transcript tomorrow to see I guess.

[sue hindmarsh]

Kevin wrote:

Just heard a classic argument a minute ago on an interview with an Australian celebrity who has converted to Christianity.

He argues that you can't reason about the existence of God, because you can't out-think God. (?)

"Can't out-think God"???? - But obviously he can, since he possesses this knowledge about the way God Thinks!

Further, he says that if God doesn't exist, then the question's not worth thinking about.

Well, that’s one way to deal with that question – just sweep it under the mat. Out of sight; out of mind.

He's just a coward.

So whether God exists or not, it's not worth thinking about it, apparently.

This Aussie celebrity is no different to most other people, in that he finds thinking about the question of existence too painfully difficult. He and others, makeup fantasies to hide behind, thereby ensuring that they remain blissfully ignorant.

Just goes to show that most people don't deserve life.
-
Sue

[Kelly Jones]

Most Christians feel that God is the omnipresent Parent, who is always personally watching their every thought. They're actually quite frightened to question the existence of God, because they believe God will smack them. This God is so dictatorial that he won't turn up to prove his existence, but only punish his offspring for imagining he isn't around. This is why Christians are so adamant that God blesses those he loves - they're too frightened to complain. Christians should form a union and protest.

But they don't, because they love being bullies themselves. They tell their little children: "I know if you disobey me, because a little bird tells me". They tell their families and friends: "God never abandons those he loves" - and won't nick off.

Are people who consciously bully people to stifle individual thinking, evil, or only those who do it unconsciously?

[sanchez]

Ahh...the topic of God! A good one if you know what you are talking about, and if you are talking about the God of the universe I hope you plan on meeting up with the apostle paul at the end of your journey in Life, because you won't be needing your body anymore, only that through salvation your soul will be "saved" through much practicing of the truth and not just hearing the truth about all things. So, what do we have here? A million bucks tells me 5 seconds before you die and pass on to the next world, you will be making a treaty with the ultimate Him.
He is not the barrer of bad news, nor does He even try to disrupt your punny little life which to Him does not really have any real meaning. God is the bringer of life. God is the the ulitmate Voice and when you hear "it" you'll know that you're on the right track.
Being faithfull to him is not as if you are still doing chores for your parents. It's as if God is a close friend whom you as an individual struggling to find meaning and purpose in this world will liken to know what's next on the menu of God's good fortune.
How can some person explain the beauty of a flower, unless they become like that flower. Blossom.
So, on the topic of the God of the universe I proceed to enlighten you that if you or any person chooses to serve the almighty Lord, there are benefits such as become a part of His kingdom, which includes heaven, hell, and earthly exitence.
In order to Feel like one of the Gods, you have to first serender your Life to one. That is to say, " God's are nowhere to be found in a boring person." If a soul of a man can attain it's purpose-to become like a God. Surrender.

[Nick]

Most Christians feel that God is the omnipresent Parent, who is always personally watching their every thought. They're actually quite frightened to question the existence of God, because they believe God will smack them. This God is so dictatorial that he won't turn up to prove his existence, but only punish his offspring for imagining he isn't around. This is why Christians are so adamant that God blesses those he loves - they're too frightened to complain. Christians should form a union and protest.

But they don't, because they love being bullies themselves. They tell their little children: "I know if you disobey me, because a little bird tells me". They tell their families and friends: "God never abandons those he loves" - and won't nick off.

I agree with both you and Sue on your explanations as to why people don't question the Christian God's existence. Similiar to what Sue said, I think some people are too lazy, or cowardly, or too busy satisfying their egos to honestly ponder the existence of God. Similiar to what you said, I also think some people are truly affraid to question God's existence due to the Christian culture being pounded into their brains over the years. Ultimately rendering their logic and intellect impotent.

Are people who consciously bully people to stifle individual thinking, evil, or only those who do it unconsciously?

I think both of them can be considered evil, in that neither person promotes the growth of Truth, wisdom, and logic. Although the bullys carry more of the weight of this judgement due to them actually knowing they are preaching bullshit for their own gain. But this is just nit-picking. When compared to a sage, they both pale in comparison to his consciousness. In fact they might both be deemed equally unconscious.

[sanchez]

Shit. Thanks for helping me out with my grammer and ideas.

I find that through reading all this hunk of junk and bullshit on this forum, it is actually helping me improve my writing skills. With your ideas and boring arguments I am now understanding how much junk I can pull together to make a good argument. Gracias!

[Kevin Solway]

Sanchez,

Can you give me a proof of the existence of God in one sentence?

If your proof is only by experience, rather than reason, then give me a proof that your experience is not mistaken. For example, how do you know that what you think is God is not in fact the Devil?

I hope you plan on meeting up with the apostle paul at the end of your journey in Life

Is your knowledge that Paul is not dead also arrived at by direct experience? How do you know your experience is not mistaken, other than by faith?

[Kevin Solway]

What I find weird about this Christian God is that he doesn't want anyone to reason that he exists, and is using his huge intellect to somehow evade even the most ardent of truth-seekers.

[Matt Gregory]

I think the problem is that no one believes that reason is capable of anything.

[DHodges]

What I find weird about this Christian God is that he doesn't want anyone to reason that he exists, and is using his huge intellect to somehow evade even the most ardent of truth-seekers.

Well, this is actually a pretty subtle and advanced part of Christian doctrine, but let me see if I can explain it:

Jehovah, the all-knowing, all-powerful God that created the Universe, etc., just loves to play peek-a-boo.

That's part of the advanced, secret teachings that you don't usually get until you are cleared of body thetans. At the lower levels, you are just told that God works in mysterious ways.

[Leyla Shen]

I never did understand those body thetans.

That, and ethics. [laughs]

.

[sanchez]

I could tell you that God is the planet sun, but then, you would respond with, " that is a childish remark." In order to see things through God's eye and see Him for who he truly is you kinda have to break the rules and have a childlike intuition.
I believe God never intended for us to grow up, completely, due to Him trying to keep the things of this world simple, and not too gratified.
How to find God: I think you have to involve yourself into the things of nature. Take for example a simple tree. A tree can replenish oxygen. We need oxygen to have life. Can you talk to that tree? yes. If you have a childlike mind, and belief in God, you'll probably be able to see that tree come into existence, like into a glowing material.
If this sounds dumb, then, just let me know.
I am trying to keep up with you guys.

[Jamesh]

I think the problem is that no one believes that reason is capable of anything.

It obviously isn't. Only emotions are capable of bringing forth actions.

Emotions controlled by reason tend to lead to "good" karma for the group.

[Kevin Solway]

Emotions controlled by reason tend to lead to "good" karma for the group.

Please define what you mean by "emotion".

In the normal sense of the word, an emotion is something like fear, hate, or love, etc. Reason undermines all these, which leaves nothing for reason to have to control.

[Kevin Solway]

I could tell you that God is the planet sun

I don't know what a planet sun is.

In your view, is God the Totality of everything that exists, the whole of Nature, or is He something less than the Totality.

[sanchez]

sheesh.

[sanchez]

I am sorry.

I am going to leave this forum for good. My appologies to anyone who was annoyed by my comments.

[AlyOshA]

“Genius”—what a terrible name for a discussion forum. Are we all really that vain? Controversy is entertaining so for this thread I will indulge.
Prove to me that God doesn’t exist. Prove to me that God exists. Can anyone on this site prove that they exist? And no I don’t want some Rene Descartes BS because although he was wildly innovative in approach his outcomes were downright foolish.
I am not saying that it is insipid to question the existence of God, but goddamn I’ve heard these same arguments from both sides over and over and over again – and frankly I’m bored to tears. Does that mean I think you all should take Buddha’s advice and remove the poison arrow from your chests – not necessarily. I just beg someone, anyone to bring a fresh voice to the discussion, to show just the slightest bit of ORIGINALITY. Does the final word on this age-old conundrum really end at the close of the 1800’s? Lee Smolin has some interesting theories and I do respect the innovative voices of string theory but why are we still using passé arguments from Bertrand Russel? It seems that some of you watched Brian Flemming’s documentary The God Who Wasn’t There and somehow had the epiphany that you were the voice of REASON. So now you will ask me to display proof of my originality – fair enough. But I just joined this site yesterday out of spite for one of your flunky members named RaskOlnikOv so I am going to wait a couple of posts and get a better feel for my environment.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

alexei,

I use the old fashioned method of disproving god: I press for a complete definition, and try to show in as few words as possible how it is untenable by virtue of violation of a more fundamental principle of reality (causality, self-identity, non-contradiction).

It's usually possible to disprove a given definition of God in less words than that last sentence. I'm being generous here, because most acolytes see definitions and the rest of the baggage of rational thought as somehow beneath them. It is, therefore, rarely possible to find someone willing to risk offering a complete definition, and even rarer to find someone who will toss away the shell after the egg has been squished.

What with your crying for originality, I really don't think you'd have much sympathy for any of the indisputable proofs our type can offer. And fuck me if I'm going to dance a monkey-dance for someone who thinks I'm a clown. If I'm wrong, and you really do want God disproved... put a definition on the table and watch it get torn apart.

Which qualities does your God have? Did he create the universe? Is he synonymous with reality? Is he conscious? Does he judge everyone after they die? Omnipresent? Omniscient? Omnisexual? Thirty-six-armed? Come now, spit it out!

[Kelly Jones]

Prove to me that God doesn’t exist. Prove to me that God exists. Can anyone on this site prove that they exist?

Consider Kevin's question to Sanchez, asking Sanchez if he defined God as the same or different to the Totality (everything).

If God is the Totality, then what experiment can be devised to allow others to observe God's existence?

If God is not the Totality, and therefore a part of the Totality, then God is not the Absolute Creator . But since "not-Absolute-Creator" is everything that is not the Totality (and the Totality is everything, by definition), then it is an absolute truth that a God that is not-the-Absolute-Creator cannot possibly exist. It is a logical impossibility.

Another point is that God the Absolute Creator also cannot possibly exist, since only parts of the Totality can exist. In other words, there are ultimately no parts, nor any things that exist. There's only God the Absolute Creator.

.

[Beingof1]

Kelly Jones:

Another point is that God the Absolute Creator also cannot possibly exist, since only parts of the Totality can exist. In other words, there are ultimately no parts, nor any things that exist. There's only God the Absolute Creator.

Well said Kelly.

I agree completely with QRS on what/who God is. God cannot possibly exist but is of necessity real or the Ultimate Reality.

The only divergance (I wish I had time to discuss) , to me, God has demonstratable desire/will that seems to evolve out from the infinite or beyond the comprhrensible.

There is no logical breakdown there, yet it can only be termed the ineffible that is self evident. Kinda like life itself.

It can be demonstrated as the evolving universe is a process that carries with it inherent desire - this desire manifested as the life-force that you are. That is, unless you deny you are experiencing Ultimate Reality.

[DHodges]

I agree completely with QRS on what/who God is. God cannot possibly exist but is of necessity real or the Ultimate Reality.

The only divergance (I wish I had time to discuss) , to me, God has demonstratable desire/will that seems to evolve out from the infinite or beyond the comprhrensible.

See, this is why I don't like to use the word "God".

If we are talking about the Totality, let's call it that. To me it seems obvious that the Totality can not have will or desire, because it already is all things at all places and times. What could there be for it to desire or will? How could all there is change into something else? Will or desire must be the property of an entity - something that exists within the Totality.

It can be demonstrated as the evolving universe is a process that carries with it inherent desire - this desire manifested as the life-force that you are.

How would you demonstrate such a thing? What would it inherently desire?

That is, unless you deny you are experiencing Ultimate Reality.

I don't deny that - but I don't assert it to be true, either. Maybe you should explain what you mean.

[Beingof1]

I agree completely with QRS on what/who God is. God cannot possibly exist but is of necessity real or the Ultimate Reality.

The only divergance (I wish I had time to discuss) , to me, God has demonstratable desire/will that seems to evolve out from the infinite or beyond the comprhrensible.

Dave: See, this is why I don't like to use the word "God".

If we are talking about the Totality, let's call it that. To me it seems obvious that the Totality can not have will or desire, because it already is all things at all places and times. What could there be for it to desire or will? How could all there is change into something else? Will or desire must be the property of an entity - something that exists within the Totality.

The Totality;
It is all things at all places and all times. It is everything that can possibly be in all possible worlds, it is not everything that will possibly be. An infinite state is in flux - not a stagnation of finite application.

An example is each moment of time is in a continuous momentem of a brand new reality of time. It therefore; transcends time in a constant state of what cannot be restrained or bounded.

The 'problem' is in the idea that a desire/will is a lack - it can also be an expression of fullfilment as an infinite state could not possibly be compared nor lack as it is of necessity all that could possibly be.

Wait a second and the Totality will be more then what could possibly be in all possible worlds.

BO1: It can be demonstrated as the evolving universe is a process that carries with it inherent desire - this desire manifested as the life-force that you are.

Dave: How would you demonstrate such a thing? What would it inherently desire?

To be you.

That is, unless you deny you are experiencing Ultimate Reality.

I don't deny that - but I don't assert it to be true, either. Maybe you should explain what you mean.

Why do you desire and what gave you this desire?

[AlyOshA]

I acknowledge my ego and utilize it as a tool. But I do not live through my ego or confuse it for my true substance.

I really don't think you'd have much sympathy for any of the indisputable proofs our type can offer. And fuck me if I'm going to dance a monkey-dance for someone who thinks I'm a clown. If I'm wrong, and you really do want God disproved... put a definition on the table and watch it get torn apart.

Which qualities does your God have? Did he create the universe? Is he synonymous with reality? Is he conscious? Does he judge everyone after they die? Omnipresent? Omniscient? Omnisexual? Thirty-six-armed? Come now, spit it out!

That is not true mookestink I not only have sympathy but also respect. I just wanted to test the waters by hurling warrantless insults and criticisms instead of offering a resolution. Please excuse my playfulness. If you don’t mind I would very much like to see how your system of disproving God works. I will give you a definition of God that existed before Christianity (under the pretext that there is nothing new under the sun).

The Supreme TAO is formless, yet It produces and nurtures all things.
The Supreme TAO has no desires, yet by Its power the Sun and Moon revolve in their orbits.
The Supreme TAO is nameless, yet It supports all things eternally.
I do not know its name but for title call It "TAO".
TAO manifests both the pure and the turbid, both as movement and stillness.
Those who have the power to transcend their desires, looking within and contemplating mind, realizes that in mind, mind is not; looking without contemplating form, they realize that in form, form is not; looking at things still more remote and contemplating matter, they realize that in matter, matter is not.
When they have clearly thought about these three they perceive only a void, and when they contemplate the void, they realize that the void is also void and has become nothingness. The void having vanished into nothingness, they realize that the nothingness of nothing is also nothing, and when the nethermost nothingness is reached, there is truly to be found a deep and unchanging stillness.
In this profound stillness how can desires come forward? When desires can no longer come forward, there is essential and unchanging stillness.
Truth is essentially unchanging.
All things in The Universe and in our world are in essence unchanging.
The unfolding of a person's mind leads them to this unchanging truth.
In unchanging Stillness, unchanging Purity and Rest are found.
Those who attain Purity and Stillness enter into the Immutable TAO.
Having entered the Immutable TAO they are named Possessor of TAO.
Although they are named Possessor of TAO they know they do not possess it.

DHodges said:

If we are talking about the Totality, let's call it that. To me it seems obvious that the Totality can not have will or desire, because it already is all things at all places and times. What could there be for it to desire or will? How could all there is change into something else? Will or desire must be the property of an entity - something that exists within the Totality.

In the Taoist definition of God (notice I'm not claiming it to be my own), the Toa does not have a will or desire. It is a simple means of reduction. What comes before something, nothing, therefore nothing existed before something and is the creator of everything. Is nothingness the Totality or is nothingness a part of the Totality? I think you answered it yourself Kelly Jones

Another point is that God the Absolute Creator also cannot possibly exist, since only parts of the Totality can exist. In other words, there are ultimately no parts, nor any things that exist. There's only God the Absolute Creator.

And how do you distinguish the parts from the whole? Uh Oh! I hear the teachings of Buddha!

Nagasena asks the King: — ‘How dids't thou come hither? on foot, or in a carriage?’ ‘In a carriage.’ ‘Well,’ said Nagasena, ‘let us now consider what a carriage, is. Are the shafts the carriage? No. Is the seat you sat upon the carriage? No. Are the wheels the carriage? No. Is the yoke the carriage? No. And thus,’ said Nagasena, ‘one can enumerate all the parts of the carriage, but all the parts are not the carriage. And yet, all that is there enumerated is the carriage, only the carriage consists of all the parts put together; it is no more than a name for that of which all the parts make one whole. If we consider it apart from its separate constituents, it is nothing but a name!’