Why I believe insecurity is the root of all evil.

[SasQuatch9585]

Evil is a very broad word and encompasses a lot of things; different things to different people. Certainly those differences arise from the different minds who place upon things the judgement of evil or virtuous. For example, I am a member of the Church of Body Modification. Any Christian (and probably members of other faiths of which I'm ignorant) would tell you that things like tattoos, piercings, brandings and so on, are evil. This is an example of such a judgement.

For the purposes of this discussion I use my own definition of the word. Things which everyone can agree are evil. Succinctly speaking, a violation of another's human rights. Such rights including, but not limited to: free will, the search for happiness, self expression, the right to live and be healthy.

As examples of acts of evil I offer dehumanization based on (among other things) race, resources, intelligence (or perceived intelligence), or religion; murder, rape, slavery. Generally, the supression of the human spirit. Obviously this list is incomplete, but you get the idea.

These activites, as all activites in life, are motivated by emotions. The emotions I believe motivate these actions include, but are not limited to, desire, fear, hatred, anger and jealousy. The origin of these emotions, I believe, is insecurity, and here's why.

As members of the natural world modern humans survived in groups known as tribes. For other species a different, and I believe more apt word is 'pack' (but truly, I see little difference in their connotations). It is this pack mentality that seeds insecurity because knowing your place in the tribe--the pecking order--is vital to survival in the tribe. Knowing your place means knowing what other members think of you. This is why it's still part of our nature today.

The rewards of a higher place in the pack are simple.

The right to eat first, which I imagine meant better nutrition back then, because the food was less likely to be spoiled, and you'd be able to satisfy your hunger, rather than simply pacifying it.

First choice of mates, which not only ensured the continuity of your own DNA (a Darwinian staple), but that it would be combined with the best DNA of the potential mates in the group (beauty being defined as symmetry, symmetry being the result of the regularity of one's DNA).

But aside from the physical benifits there are the social benifits. The kindness of others, gifts, acclaim, the fact that your opinions would carry more weight come decision making time.

So how does this system sponsor those emotions? You must be aware of your place in the system before you desire a higher place, fear losing your place, hate someone for unseating you from your place or interfering with your quest to gain a higher place, or be jealous of another for their place.

So how does this apply to modern examples of evil?

The quest for world domination, for example is the quest to become the king of the mountain. To control the destiny of others. To gain the highest place in the pack, granting you the ultimate power. One who seeks such power (even on smaller scales) feels powerless in and of themselves.

This touches on rape as well. Many people think that rape is motivated by an unsatisfied sex drive. Psycologists disagree, and so do I. You must be angry to rape. Prostitution is about an unsatisfied sex drive. Rape is about control.

I was driving a cab about three years ago and one of my passengers started talking about his frustrations with women. He was married and like many men felt that he was living under his wife's thumb. He felt he wasn't in control of his own life. The frustration of not being free and in control of himself, his own actions, and his own children (essentially, not being the alpha male) drove him nuts. The man actually said to me, "I makes you just want to go out and rape some bitch."

Why not his own wife? I didn't ask. As a cabbie, you're safer if you're just agreeable and don't argue with your customers. I guess it's because he'd still have to live with her. He couldn't so easily get away with such violence. He'd have to face punishment (domestic or legal) for taking it out on his wife. A random woman is an easier get-away. Also I imagine there was still some vestige of love that held him back.

What about religion, money, or intelligence? All forms of power, are they not? With religious supremacy one can control others actions with nothing more than words. One can also use it go gain wealth, which has obvious power. And intelligence? If you can out-wit someone you can control their actions and emotions.

This is not to say that religion, money, and intelligence are inherently evil. Just that they are forms of power. With great power comes great responsibility. You are responsible for how your power effects others, and you can wield it for good or for evil. It is the desperate need for this kind of power which I find evil, because it means you feel powerless within yourself.

Feeling powerless inside yourself means (probably) that you feel others around do have power. Your natural insecurity tells you that they are therefore more important. Then begins jelousy and hatred of them for making you feel less important (when really it's just your own mind making you feel smaller). Indeed, those who feel powerful usually act as though they are more important, displaying their power (even if that power is only self-confidence). But to make the display is itself an expression of insecurity because you are still actively trying to influence others' impression of you and therefore improve your standing in the pecking order.

As I see it, human nature is governed most centrally by this pecking order. Social standing, the definition of 'cool', the desire to be beautiful, the need to fit into a social group, the belief that we need a mate to complete us...all of this stems from the idea that we are nothing unless someone else thinks we're something. The evil comes when someone threatens our quest to pacify that insecurity.

So it has become my personal quest to eliminate insecurity and all it's manifestations from my mind and heart. How do I know when I'm doing or feeling something out of insecurity? Simple. Any time I find myself reacting to the idea of what someone else thinks of me in any way, that's insecurity. Even if it means taking pride in praise, because it still reenforces the idea that what other people think matters.

This is not to say that I cannot accept compliments. I thank people for their kind words, but I don't allow myself to be emotionally lifted because of it. Likewise, I don't allow myself to be emotionally supressed because of criticism.

Any time I find myself concidering what others might think when making a decision, that's insecurity. How will it look? Is that cool? Does this make me look stupid?

Obviously everyone wants to feel like they look good, but if looking good depends on someone else's opinion of it, guess what...you never will. Not to everyone.

As I said, I'm a member of the Church of Body Modification, so you can guess that I do not comply to the main-stream American (or western, for that matter) ideal of masculinity. I wear very thick ear rings, and not just in my ear lobes, one of my tattoos (and several others planned) is visible. I have a scar in the shape of the Darwin fish (a fish with legs) on my arm that was created by a third-degree burn (the technique did not cause anywhere near as much pain as you'd think, but that's another subject).

All of this places me squarely outside the mass appeal, but that is not my concern. It does however place me squarely within the appeal of my own subculture, but that's not my concern either. My concern is that I like my appearance, the same as anyone else. The difference is that whether others like it has nothing to do with whether I like it.

I have an eyebrow piercing that several people in my life (including a body modification professional) said would look crappy before I got it, but that didn't stop me. I have a friend (pierced, tattooed, and branded herself) who thinks it looks rediculous. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Chasing down things to pacify your insecurities is not the path to happiness because it doesn't satisfy your soul. It satisfies someone else's judgement. Confronting and defeating my insecurities has been the key to my happiness. It's an amazing freedom to not care what someone else thinks of you.

One final point. Usually when I ask people whether they care what someone else thinks of them I get roughly the same answer. "Hell no. If somebody doesn't like me they can go to hell." or "...go practice self-fornication."

Okay, let's brake that down. First of all, where or what you are encouraging others to go or do for not liking you sounds to me like punishment. Why a punishment if there is no crime? Why is it a crime if you really don't care?

Second, it's not because they're judging you. It's because they're judging you unfavorably. If someone says, "You look nice tonight," you don't respond by saying, "Hey man! Don't put your judgement on me, I don't need that crap. You can go to hell!" You say, "Thanks," or something to that effect.

So to me letting go of insecurity means being utterly indifferent to others' opinions of you. Even the favorable ones. Be gracious, sure, but take no pride, inflate no ego, gain no arrogance, because all of these are, to me, expressions of the same insecurity.

[Ryan Rudolph]

retracted, Cory Patrick is right, I read it through quickly and misinterupted the entire thread...oops.

[Cory Duchesne]

Not that I'm completely in agreement with SasQ's philosophy,
but CP, I think you've experienced a bit of a misinterpretation of what he wrote:

Let's take a closer look:

Sasq: One final point. Usually when I ask people whether they care what someone else thinks of them I get roughly the same answer. "Hell no. If somebody doesn't like me they can go to hell." or "...go practice self-fornication."

here you can see SasQ is illustrating the typical attitude of your typical rebel, rather than advocating it.

Lets read a bit further:

SasQ: Okay, let's break that attitude down. First of all, where or what you are encouraging others to go or do for not liking you sounds to me like punishment.

Why a punishment if there is no crime? Why is it a crime if you really don't care?

Sasq is saying: "if you truly don't care about what another person thinks, then why do you want them to go to hell for not liking you?"

SasQ: Second, it's not because they're judging you. It's because they're judging you unfavorably. If someone says, "You look nice tonight," you don't respond by saying, "Hey man! Don't put your judgement on me, I don't need that crap. You can go to hell!" You say, "Thanks," or something to that effect.

And here sasQ is saying that humans don't mind being judged per se. They dislike being judged unfavorably.

SasQ was actually trying to difuse the very "go to hell" rebel attitude that you thought he was advocating.

Now don't you turn this around and tell me to go to hell.

This is just a little salt in the ocean of CP, nothin the old boy cant handle

Aside from your mishap, there were some good questions and comments, and I await sasQ's reply.

SasQ is an intriguing little narcisist indeed.

[millipodium]

I haven't read the thread but the title sounds totally correct.

[millipodium]

The scarcity mentality is very harmful.

I'm amused by doctrinnaire brainwashed liberal idiots, who at once hold the idea that there's enough for everybody if we all would just share, and the idea that humanity is exhausting our resources at an all alarming rate. Morons.

[SasQuatch9585]

Cory wrote:

Aside from your mishap, there were some good questions and comments, and I await sasQ's reply.

SasQ is an intriguing little narcisist indeed.

Well, since cosmic prostitute aparently retracted whatever it is uh...he or she? wrote I never got a chance to read it, therefore no chance to reply to it.

I am interested in why you think I'm narcissistic, though, as I would define that as insecurity as well, so I'd like to see if it's true and destroy it if so.

[Jamesh]

Insecurity is the root of evil

You can’t really have insecurity without first having desires, so one could also say that desires are the root of evil (and good of course). Insecurity perhaps causes as much good (cooperative progression) as evil (selfish destruction). Insecurity for instance clearly is driver of technology. The insecurity involved in people wanting to do good things is less recognised because people generally concentrate on finding solutions only for the bad things- only the bad needs to be examined and fixed, not the good, so the reasons behind the good are not often conceptualised in one's brain.

Insecurity will occur when desires are not controlled by rational thinking, although there will always be a significant degree of insecurity due to our knowledge that we are temporary beings who can be easily destroyed before we may wish to. When people think rationally then they become individuals and when people are individuals, great evils such as the Muslim religion and evangelical religions would not gain the power inherent in our more animalistic herd based emotional behaviours.

[Cory Duchesne]

SasQ: I am interested in why you think I'm narcissistic, though, as I would define that as insecurity as well, so I'd like to see if it's true and destroy it if so.

I called you a narcisist because I felt that anyone who seems to proclaim that they have found the secret to absolute security and offers a helping hand should have to undergo testing.

The act of helping people, often excarbarates the very state you set out to help.

Therefore, if you are deluded in your way of thinking, you could really cause alot of damage.

Gaining and maintaining self esteem (security) has been known to be a very exploitative venture, if you know what I mean.

Therefore, you deserve to be tested.

The first thoughts that came into my mind when I read your 'church of body modification' website were: 'vain', 'narcisitic'.

However, I find that your writing on the genius forum hasnt been too bad.

So you intrigue me, yet I feel you and your people, if you are not narcisistic now, must have been excessively narcisitic for a period.

For all I know, Humanities biggest flaw could be that it lacks sufficient narcisism, or perhaps its narcicism is mediocre.

Anyone who is not mediocre has gone through a period of excessive self absorbtion, self love, self focused activity.

Anyhow,

Upon considering what the church of body modification is about - if you are truly good, and secure - - then you have a good understanding of narcisism and vanity, and thus, my words will have no effect over your security and feelings of self worth.

If you havent explored the nature of narcisism and vanity, then I feel that your influence on humanity will be a rather pitiful one.

Here are some definitions of narcisism:

1) Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.

I would say that to decorate your bodies to the extent that you do, would require an excessive ammount of self preoccupation, self love, and even an admiration of what you've achieved through body modification.

As for the 'conceit' part......I never heard of the 'church of body modification'. You are apparently a new movement. In order to set in motion a new religion would require a rather high opinion of yourself! You must think most of humanity is pretty imbecilic, and you must think that you are pretty great.

2) A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.

The empathy and concern you seem to show for hummanity could very well be just a manifestation of your narcisitic desire for heroism - and deficits in self esteem could be the root of your excessive and extreme behavior. Your well being and security may very well depend on encouraging humanity to become more like you - deluded?

I'm just testing you.

In my opinion, you are taking on a lot of responsiblity. Helping people is not something I take lightly. I am very skeptical of 'helpers' of humanity.

Therefore you get tough testing.

3) Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.

I would say all the focus on the physical body definitely alludes to the narcistic tendency to derive erotic pleasure from contemplation, admiraton, and of course, you perhaps use 'modification' as a means to enhance and give new life to your addiction to the contemplation and admiration of your body. It ends up being a vicious cycle.

Michael Jacksons nose falling off is a great example of the vicious cycle of admiration, modificaiton, admiration, modification......soon there is just a mess.

As for a 'regression to an infantile stage of development' - your preoccupation with body modification could very well be an escape from more the practical problems humanity needs help with - more humane and ecologically sensitive means of clothes, food, and energy production - - or perhaps even less self-absorption.

Perhaps we are living in an age of narcisism.

And perhaps this is not a good thing.

Anyways, if you want to be a god and savior of humanity, these sorts of things are inevitably going to be thrown your way. So i'm just preparing you. Or perhaps the words narcisism and vanity have been thrown your way quite a bit over the years.



-------------------------
Good is the root of all evil

[SasQuatch9585]

You can’t really have insecurity without first having desires, so one could also say that desires are the root of evil (and good of course).

Certainly there are things that preceeded and caused insecurity in our lives. Insecurity was neccesary for survival in (and of) a social group. Survival made neccesary by competition with other groups and species. Other groups and species created by evolution and changing environments. Evolution and changing environments governed by the laws of physics...and so on.

So if you wanted to follow such a chain back as far as possible then the fabric of reality itself is the root of all evil.

You can't have a tree without first having another tree to create the seed, but the tree's roots are what allow it to continue living; where it gains it's sustenance.

You have to desire a higher place in the group before you can be insecure about getting it, but you have to be aware of your place in the group before you can desire a higher place. Being aware of your place means knowing what others think of you. As soon as you decide you don't care how others see you, you no longer desire a higher place in their view, effectively killing the root of that desire.

You have to desire food before you can be insecure about whether someone will get it first. But you have to be aware that someone else is in line ahead of you before the desire drives you to push ahead of them. If you weren't aware of it, or if such competition didn't exist, there would only be desire, which would probably just cause impatience.

None of this is to say that desire itself isn't something to be overcome.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

I'm not a Taoist, nor do I claim to understand fully what he's talking about here, but it's clear that he believes desire is a critical thing to overcome before one's journey is complete. To some extent, this even includes the desire for food.

Insecurity perhaps causes as much good (cooperative progression) as evil (selfish destruction). Insecurity for instance clearly is driver of technology. The insecurity involved in people wanting to do good things is less recognised because people generally concentrate on finding solutions only for the bad things- only the bad needs to be examined and fixed, not the good, so the reasons behind the good are not often conceptualised in one's brain.

I believe that's true. Without insecurity there'd be little to no need for war, and war has certianly been a primary driving force behind technology.

I believe that people do good things out of insecurity. Fear of going to hell, maybe, or just because they want others to think they're good people. But if you remove insecurity from the human condition you'd still have respect, love, compassion, empathy. There would still be reasons--emotional drivers--to do good.

...there will always be a significant degree of insecurity due to our knowledge that we are temporary beings who can be easily destroyed before we may wish to.

This is just knowledge. You needn't feel insecure about it. Your emotions are not the direct and unavoidable result of the situation you're in. They are your brain's reaction to that situation, and you can choose how you react. I'm not going to pretend I like the idea that I'll die some day, but I'm not terrified by it even though I don't believe in anything after death. I continue to evolve my life, but not because I'm afraid I'll not get things done before I die. I'm aware that I'll die, and I accept that. It's my goal to let go of all the crap that makes me feel bad because life is too short to focus on the fact that it's too short.

Over all, I don't think we're too far in disagreement.

[SasQuatch9585]

I called you a narcisist because I felt that anyone who seems to proclaim that they have found the secret to absolute security and offers a helping hand should have to undergo testing.
...
In my opinion, you are taking on a lot of responsiblity. Helping people is not something I take lightly. I am very skeptical of 'helpers' of humanity.

Therefore you get tough testing.

Rightfully so, and I subject myself to it willingly.

I do not claim to have found the secret to absolute security because I myself am not convinced that I'm absolutely secure. To believe such a thing seems limiting to me. It would encourage the believer to stop looking for flaws in himself, and therefore to stop evolving.

However, I believe I have destroyed something like 90% of the insecurities that once drove my life. The result has been unbelievably good, as I find myself making decisions based on what's good for me and not my image.

As far as taking on responsibility, I wouldn't ask for it. It's not my express purpose to help others with their lives. I don't want to offer any advise beyond 'Find insecurity in yourself and destroy it.' I do believe that doing so would help those people, but that's their doing, not mine. I just want to hand them a tool they may find useful. The man who invented the hammer didn't pound every nail in the world. (and I'm not trying to say I came up with this idea)

The act of helping people, often excarbarates the very state you set out to help.

Therefore, if you are deluded in your way of thinking, you could really cause alot of damage.

Gaining and maintaining self esteem (security) has been known to be a very exploitative venture, if you know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. I don't want engage in the act of helping people; to start up an advise column, because the only advise I can give would be based on my own unique experience in life, which is dramatically different than that of even my closest friends.

Each person's life is a unique landscape of events. Having found my way out of my own dark jungles in no way prepares me to help somone else find their way. The landmarks are in different places, so when I think I'm directing someone to a clearing on a hillside, I may be stearing them straight off a cliff. And how the hell would I know?

As far as the exploitation...yeah. Making someone feel good often encourages them to feel indebted to you. At least until the house of cards you've built for them crashes.

...I feel you and your people, if you are not narcisistic now, must have been excessively narcisitic for a period.

I can't speak for other members of the COBM as I have yet to meet a single one. The web site currently claims 1609 members. I don't know how many live in my town, but it seems to be a very poorly organised organisation. It took them over four months to send me a friggin' T-shirt.

However, I can speak to the nature of other modified people I've met, but please don't assign any of this (or my own attributes) to members of the church.

It seems to me that most people who get into body modification in one form or another do so out of a desire to at once give the finger to mainstream society (or it's closest representatives, i.e. their parents) and fit into a subculture of people whom they find appealing. Understand, having a tattoo or two doesn't mean you're really into it in the way I mean.

It also seems like a way to pacify insecurity. People who have tattoos are often viewed as cool or tough. For some poeple getting modified is a way of showing poeple they're not afraid of pain. In fact, there are many poeple who enjoy the pain, possibly out of a literal addiction to it. Although there are certainly ways of experiencing enjoyable pain that don't require permanent modification of one's body.

For the record, I don't enjoy pain. My goal in experiencing pain is to keep my mind calm and focused so as to minimize the pain and increase mental discipline. It took quite a lot of discipline to lie still while nine cones of incense burned out slowly across my shoulders and chest over the course of about 45 minutes, leaving me with nine circular third-degree burns (my most recent modification).

From this I learn to stay calm no matter what is going on around me; to not let panic or frustration overwhelm me and begin making decisions for me. Additionally, since this experience I've found it much easier to push myself to sleep. Something I learned to do after discovering meditation (yes, I'm a man of science, but meditation is real), and I expect my next meditation will be much easier to slip into.

Ultimately, narcissism wouldn't surprise me one bit coming from members of the modified community, including members of the church, and there is certainly a sense of achievement for many of us for having gone through the experience of being modified. This is not a new aspect of modification. Ancient tribes that practiced modification often performed said modifications as rites of passage for comming of age or successful hunting or the like.

For the Chruch itself, there is definately a desire to reawaken the primitive spirituallity that many people feel has been distorted or destroyed by organized religion. Modified people often call themselves Modern Primitives. This is not my intention, however.

Church doctorine is very loose, stating basically that body modification is a valid way to pursue spirituallity, and the we own our own bodies. I agree with this assertion, and also like the fact that, as a member of the COBM, no one can deny me employment on the grounds that my modifications are unprofessional. After all, you don't tell a Muslim that five daily prayers are unprofessional, or disruptive to his work or anyone else's. (not that I work in a professional environment)

But enough about the body mod and the church thereof.

I would say that to decorate your bodies to the extent that you do, would require an excessive ammount of self preoccupation, self love, and even an admiration of what you've achieved through body modification.

Yes, there's an admiration for what I've acomplished through body modification because for me it's more than just a change of appearance.

But when I first started getting tattoos I was doing to because I thought it looked cool. Nothing more profound than that. I kept them under my clothing because I was still woried about my employment potential at the time, but I had no problem--in fact, I rather enjoyed--showing them to people.

This was ten years ago so it's hard for me to say for sure what all of my motivations were, but I can tell you that I was an insecure wreck back then. My self esteme was virtually nonexistent, so self-love couldn't have been part of the picture, and I certainly didn't admire myself. I remember looking in the mirror once when I was in junior high and telling myself I was ugly; hating myself. This is an attitude that perstisted virtually unchanged until about three years ago.

As for the 'conceit' part......I never heard of the 'church of body modification'. You are apparently a new movement. In order to set in motion a new religion would require a rather high opinion of yourself! You must think most of humanity is pretty imbecilic, and you must think that you are pretty great.

From the documents posted on the church website I believe it was founded in 1970 and was officially recognized in Feb. 1974, fully two years before I was born, though Fakir Musafar (concidered the father of the Modern Primitive Momement) has been doing his thing for over 50 years and is today, I believe, in his eighties.

I joined for the reason I mentioned above, and I make no effort to preach to or convert people. I believe there is more than one path to happiness, and am only interested in preserving my right to pursue mine, unobstructed by discrimination.

I can't speak to what it would take to start a new movement, but I don't know that it would require a high opinion of one's self, but it would certainly require a belief that your concepts must have merit. For a short bio on Fakir check out http://www.bodyplay.com/fakir/

(Author's note: I, like Stephen King, have been accused of having diarrhea of the word proccessor.)

The empathy and concern you seem to show for hummanity could very well be just a manifestation of your narcisitic desire for heroism - and deficits in self esteem could be the root of your excessive and extreme behavior. Your well being and security may very well depend on encouraging humanity to become more like you - deluded?

Clearly that's a possibility, and I don't blame you for pointing it out.

Honestly, it did occur to me once that I could be one of the guys to help humanity in a profound way by escaping insecurity, but the very next moment I blew it off as the most arrogant idea I'd ever come up with. To believe that one is on par with Jesus or Buddha is truely f'n' wacky in my estimation.

Besides, pretty much everybody throughout history who has stood up and said, "Let's just try to live in peace," has been executed in one way or another. Gandhi, John Lennon, and JFK are some recent examples. My own sense of self-preservation forbids me from gaining any fame in my endeavor.

And my emapathy for hummanity? It really stems from my desire to create a happier environment for myself, which of course involves other people. The more people around me who are happy, the easier it becomes to be happy...or to avoid things that might encourage one to be unahppy.

I would say all the focus on the physical body definitely alludes to the narcistic tendency to derive erotic pleasure from contemplation, admiraton, and of course, you perhaps use 'modification' as a means to enhance and give new life to your addiction to the contemplation and admiration of your body. It ends up being a vicious cycle.

I don't see anything erotic in my own body (though I have come to realize I'm not ugly), but how nice would that be? You'd never need porn again. I can't say it isn't possible in others who modify themselves though. Who knows?

As for a 'regression to an infantile stage of development' - your preoccupation with body modification could very well be an escape from more the practical problems humanity needs help with - more humane and ecologically sensitive means of clothes, food, and energy production - - or perhaps even less self-absorption.

Body modification certainly could be an escape of some kind. Experiencing pain releases endorphins (your body's natural pain killers) into your system, so it is a way to get high, but I find that my attempts to stay clear and focused during a modification cause me to feel much less pain, and therefore recieve a smaller dose of endorphins, than most other modifiers I know report.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sasquatch wrote:

It took quite a lot of discipline to lie still while nine cones of incense burned out slowly across my shoulders and chest over the course of about 45 minutes, leaving me with nine circular third-degree burns (my most recent modification).

From this I learn to stay calm no matter what is going on around me; to not let panic or frustration overwhelm me and begin making decisions for me. Additionally, since this experience I've found it much easier to push myself to sleep. Something I learned to do after discovering meditation (yes, I'm a man of science, but meditation is real), and I expect my next meditation will be much easier to slip into.

This isn’t discipline, discipline is negating the bizarre desires to do these things to yourself. This is not learning how to be calm, calmness of mind is something completely different then preventing the body from getting the hell out of the way of pain through a strong act of will. This extreme behavior seems like an attempt at seeking distinction, self-worth and uniqueness?

And what do you think the psychological motivation is behind this? Fear to be nothing? insecurity?

Mediation is not something to be acheived through an act of will or through effort. Actually Mediation is not something to be acheived period, acheivement involves the thinking that I'll do this as a means to get that, however this is the wrong type of thinking.

Sasquatch wrote:

Body modification certainly could be an escape of some kind. Experiencing pain releases endorphins (your body's natural pain killers) into your system, so it is a way to get high, but I find that my attempts to stay clear and focused during a modification cause me to feel much less pain, and therefore recieve a smaller dose of endorphins, than most other modifiers I know report.

The activity of body modification is not the mark of a supremely wise mind, by posting at genius form you need to expect to be criticized for indulging in such a bizarre and silly behavior.

Have you read any literature on a complete ending of the self? This board is dedicated to a complete ending of the self and as far as I can tell this body modification activity that you indulge in is an activity of the self so I probably wont be the first person to cut you up on this.

Sasquatch wrote:

From the documents posted on the church website I believe it was founded in 1970 and was officially recognized in Feb. 1974, fully two years before I was born, though Fakir Musafar (concidered the father of the Modern Primitive Momement) has been doing his thing for over 50 years and is today, I believe, in his eighties.

what is the psychological motivation behind wanting to belong to a greater group and identity with that group? Is it possible to stand completely alone on ones journey to dispel confusion from the mind?

is this church of yours just another psychological crutch? I could be wrong and perhaps you could make a persuasive argument to how this is not the case.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Sasquatch, some comments on your first post:

Things which everyone can agree are evil. Succinctly speaking, a violation of another's human rights. Such rights including, but not limited to: free will, the search for happiness, self expression, the right to live and be healthy.

That's a weak definition because it's based purely on consensus of a majority. Some of the rights you mention are not valued by all. Some deny the existence of free will, some laugh about 'happiness' in relation to truth. Nature itself wants to express, live and survive, so you're saying here that Life is good and what denies Life is evil? But sometimes life cuts into itself as well, following the mysterious ways of Nature.

As examples of acts of evil I offer dehumanization based on (among other things) race, resources, intelligence (or perceived intelligence), or religion; murder, rape, slavery. Generally, the suppression of the human spirit. Obviously this list is incomplete, but you get the idea.

One could make the case that murder, rape and slavery are all too human. Suppression of others seems to be in the nature of man itself. So your 'humanization' is a specific model of an ideal man which you define to be 'human' and all other manifestations of human spirit you suppress or at least stamp 'evil' and 'inhuman' on it.

It is this pack mentality that seeds insecurity because knowing your place in the tribe--the pecking order--is vital to survival in the tribe. Knowing your place means knowing what other members think of you. This is why it's still part of our nature today.

Hierarchies are a simple way to organize groups. Organization is good for survival of the whole tribe, not only the individual members. At some level the members feel 'as one' in the tribe and will succumb to any structure that upholds the group. Not only knowing your place but (sometimes forced) acceptance of the place is important. And challenges of positions are an important part of this dynamic as well, to weed out for example weak leaders or deceptive ones ('liars').

The rewards of a higher place in the pack are simple.

I think it's better to see the reward of belonging to the pack. Check out wolves, they do not function as well without a pack, even if they function as omega.

The quest for world domination, for example is the quest to become the king of the mountain. To control the destiny of others. To gain the highest place in the pack, granting you the ultimate power. One who seeks such power (even on smaller scales) feels powerless in and of themselves.

You make a rather large assumption here between the drive to power and the perceived lack of such. Nietzsche called this lack 'ressentiment' and 'revenge' - the way for the powerless to get back at the powerful. But generally it needs power to climb the ladder of power. Power makes one seek for more expressions of it. It's like the gospel story about the talents of money

For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

This touches on rape as well. Many people think that rape is motivated by an unsatisfied sex drive. Psycologists disagree, and so do I. You must be angry to rape. Prostitution is about an unsatisfied sex drive. Rape is about control.

Rape is a violent act, penetration against someones will. But the causes are more varying. For example in wartime it was not uncommon for women of a conquered village to be mass raped and the current children killed. This way domination was established and the rapists own (or tribal) genes were forcefully spread. This behavior is still wired into the tribal nature of the human race. Modern day rape seems a direct tapping into a primitive drive that does not accept the needed patience for negotiation and courting. The rapist 'forces' himself unto the victim out of pure natural efficiency, no matter how cruel it's perceived as, or how society will punish the rapist. The 'freedom' the Western society enjoys comes with a price of admission: the control of the primitive urges and needs a system of control (courts, police, camera's, DNA test, lie detectors, tip lines and so on) to create all this 'freedom'. In the past this system of control was more religion and other now unaccepted cultural ritual or tradition.

He felt he wasn't in control of his own life. The frustration of not being free and in control of himself, his own actions, and his own children (essentially, not being the alpha male) drove him nuts. The man actually said to me, "I makes you just want to go out and rape some bitch."

At least he was in touch with his deeper feelings. Are you?

This is not to say that religion, money, and intelligence are inherently evil. Just that they are forms of power. With great power comes great responsibility. You are responsible for how your power effects others, and you can wield it for good or for evil. It is the desperate need for this kind of power which I find evil, because it means you feel powerless within yourself.

Yes, with greater power comes greater responsibility. Responsibility means self-control that can regulate the uses (or abuses) of power, channel them into the most creative and rewarding direction. But I'm not sure why the need for power or control would be 'evil'. If one is really lacking in this why not strive for it? Someone who has low health will desperately need a better health and try to make steps toward it. Isn't this the direction of the life force itself? Life looks for more life, power looks for more power and reason looks for better reasoning.

Feeling powerless inside yourself means (probably) that you feel others around do have power. Your natural insecurity tells you that they are therefore more important.

No, your natural instincts tell you they are more important. Even if that's not always the case but one is just wired that way.

Then begins jelousy and hatred of them for making you feel less important (when really it's just your own mind making you feel smaller).

This is better known as ressentiment. The moment you feel you cannot enlarge your own power, a defensive position is taken to devalue the power of those as perceived 'above' you. Even the whole concept of up and down in questioned as to even the odds.

Indeed, those who feel powerful usually act as though they are more important, displaying their power (even if that power is only self-confidence). But to make the display is itself an expression of insecurity because you are still actively trying to influence others' impression of you and therefore improve your standing in the pecking order.

Acting like one has power, while in fact it isn't there, is a natural strategy to increase survival with as less means as possible. It's the same deception as flowers toward bees, trying to look more interesting than they technically are for the bee. But sometimes power is just power and better be respected.

As I see it, human nature is governed most centrally by this pecking order. Social standing, the definition of 'cool', the desire to be beautiful, the need to fit into a social group, the belief that we need a mate to complete us...all of this stems from the idea that we are nothing unless someone else thinks we're something.

I see this as a problem of deception having replaced the real power structure. Looking or sounding like one has power, control or any superior quality has become more important than actually having such qualities. The majority doesn't have the means to see through it anymore and that's why humans are increasingly acting like peacocks, with millions of alternative to feathers.

The evil comes when someone threatens our quest to pacify that insecurity.

Anything threatening the group which is established through some hierarchy is deemed as 'evil', by the group and its members.

So it has become my personal quest to eliminate insecurity and all it's manifestations from my mind and heart. How do I know when I'm doing or feeling something out of insecurity? Simple. Any time I find myself reacting to the idea of what someone else thinks of me in any way, that's insecurity. Even if it means taking pride in praise, because it still reenforces the idea that what other people think matters.

There are people whose opinion matters just because one respects them as wise of perceptive. During immature stages one reacts emotionally with shame or pride. In mature stages one can still respond rationally with debate for example, taking other opinions into consideration, but only when perceived as significant. It works sometimes more 'efficient' if one doesn't have to examine all words regardless the source but instead give closer scrutiny to the words of those you value, ie: look upon as equal or superior in understanding and awareness (the utmost 'responsibility' that handles the power).

My concern is that I like my appearance, the same as anyone else. The difference is that whether others like it has nothing to do with whether I like it.

I don't know really but isn't this whole quest just a battle against your own insecurity? Just a counter feeling of trying to compensate with forced security?

Personally I think the higher road is to not care about ones own appearance at all, apart from the purely functional. Ones own concerns are often mirrored by the perceived rejection of others. And ones own compensation behavior will raise eyebrows of course since it's seen for what it is: a strong emotional preoccupation with one own body.

Chasing down things to pacify your insecurities is not the path to happiness because it doesn't satisfy your soul. It satisfies someone else's judgement. Confronting and defeating my insecurities has been the key to my happiness. It's an amazing freedom to not care what someone else thinks of you.

The greatest enemy is ones own judgement, not those from other. But it's also ones greatest ally.

So to me letting go of insecurity means being utterly indifferent to others' opinions of you. Even the favorable ones. Be gracious, sure, but take no pride, inflate no ego, gain no arrogance, because all of these are, to me, expressions of the same insecurity.

Letting go here means leaving the social structure, where clothes and appearance loosely define status and identity. And for leaving a social order one has to be strong of heart and mind, an individual.

But which new rules and uniforms will be taken upon oneself now? Man is a social creature and will define some identity even after escaping some pack. And he will conform to this new identity with new rules. And feel secure again, having found a new place in a newly found, perhaps less visible, pecking order, unchallenged.

[Jamesh]

Over all, I don't think we're too far in disagreement.

Sure, however on one of your points - I am scared shitless of dying before I'm old, because I have a lot of bad habits that will lead to an early death, the signs are there already - and as nothing is making me change my habits, this is always on my mind. In a way the emotions my habits cause, is the reason I want to live - there can't really be any other reason.

I have a greed to live until I do not wish to anymore. I'm sure there are forms of entertainment that I haven't experienced and gotten bored with as yet.

The fact that there will be nothing post death, so there is nothing to fear, is not much of a saving grace in the here and now.

[SasQuatch9585]

It took quite a lot of discipline to lie still while nine cones of incense burned out slowly across my shoulders and chest over the course of about 45 minutes, leaving me with nine circular third-degree burns (my most recent modification).

From this I learn to stay calm no matter what is going on around me; to not let panic or frustration overwhelm me and begin making decisions for me. Additionally, since this experience I've found it much easier to push myself to sleep. Something I learned to do after discovering meditation (yes, I'm a man of science, but meditation is real), and I expect my next meditation will be much easier to slip into.

This isn’t discipline, discipline is negating the bizarre desires to do these things to yourself. This is not learning how to be calm, calmness of mind is something completely different then preventing the body from getting the hell out of the way of pain through a strong act of will.

I never had the desire to do this to myself when I was younger. Pain was always something I avoided. I started getting tattooed when I was twenty, about ten years ago, but I wasn't 'into' body modification back then. I hadn't even heard the term 'body modification' until about four years ago.

It wasn't just a strong act of will that allowed me to get this modification. It' not simply that I forced myself to sit and feel the pain. It's that I was governing my mind's reaction to the pain, ignoring the impulse to tense up against it. That tension would have increased the pain by at least 100%, and it would have then been unbearable.

It's rather like ignoring background noise in a loud room so you can hear the person you're speaking to. The noise is still there, but you're not bringing it fully into your experience; not really procesing it. But while this is done automatically, it still requires you to remain focused on the person.

Similarly, I was ignoring another of my sensory inputs. The sensation of pain, and therefore did not actually experience most of the pain.

Mediation is not something to be acheived through an act of will or through effort. Actually Mediation is not something to be acheived period, acheivement involves the thinking that I'll do this as a means to get that, however this is the wrong type of thinking.

I agree that meditation is not an act of will. Trying to push away the activity in one's own mind only creates more activity. One must learn to settle the mind into a peaceful state. But for me settling down still something the mind does to gain that state. I have to choose to focus.

I dont' know much about meditation. I haven't read any books on it, and have only spoken to a few people in regards to how it may be done, so I'm not going to put up much of a fight on this point. One woman I spoke to told me that it's different for men and women. That men have to focus their energy more intently than women. I don't know if that's true, but if so I see no reason that meditation couldn't be acomplished differently from person to person, rather than just one sex to another. However, I have touched the emptiness that is so filling. I don't know what the nature of this state is, only that it was pure and blissful and utterly still.

I'm not going to claim that body modification has taught me how to meditate. I was learning meditation before I underwent any seriously painful modification. In fact, this last one we're speaking of is the first very painful modification I've had. It's the abililty to focus and ignore sensory input (i.e. sounds or the sensation of the bed I'm lying on) that has, for me, been key to learning to meditate, and it feels much the same as ignoring pain. Not that being modified feels like meditation. Focusing on ignoring pain and the impulse to become tense feels much the same as being focused and ignoring the impulse to have thoughts.

It's difficult to explain any clearer than that, as what I'm doing is entirely internal, and therefore there are few words that feel right when discussing it. This is really only my best metaphor. Suffice it to say, I feel a connection between the focus I use when being modified and the focus I use when I meditate. As such, I believe being modified helps sharpen my ability to focus.

Then again, it could be only this belief that my ability is sharpened that creates the sharpened ability.

This extreme behavior seems like an attempt at seeking distinction, self-worth and uniqueness?

And what do you think the psychological motivation is behind this? Fear to be nothing? insecurity?

Indeed for many modifiers I'm sure it is exactly an attempt at seeking distinction, self worth, and uniqueness, and I would certainly call that an expression of insecurity.

But this is not my motivation. Being distinct from the group requires the group to recognize that distinction. I'm not concerned with the group's view of me, though obviously anyone can see my piercings and my one visible tattoo.

Being unique is a natural state of every person. Those who modify themselves for uniqueness fail to recognize this inherent quality of themselves.

And self worth? I feel no better about myself after receiving a new modification than I did before. Body modifications are a superficial change in appearance. They have as much to do with a person's worth as their haircut, their clothes or the kind of car they drive, which is to say, nothing. The only way such changes can effect someone's idea of self-worth is if they see those changes as significant reflections of that worth. I do not.

The activity of body modification is not the mark of a supremely wise mind, by posting at genius form you need to expect to be criticized for indulging in such a bizarre and silly behavior.

The act of body modification is not, I believe, the mark of an unwise mind either. I've seen several statues of the Buddha where his ear lobes have been stretched so far as to reach to his shoulders. I've even heard from a friend of mine who studies eastern culture, that larger ear lobes were supposed to be reflective of larger wisdom, though I couldn't tell you off hand exactly which culture saw it that way.

I expect to be criticize for body modification everywhere I go. You don't get involved in something like this (especially in a predominantly Christian culture) with the expectation that everyone you meet will like the way it looks, or find it to be an acceptable way to decorate yourself.

In this, there is nothing unique about this board, and I'm not surprised you find it bizarre and silly. Though, I remind you that to many people I'm sure some of the topics on this board, such as the nature of reality, are bizarre and silly, and so would encourage you to reserve judgement until you've learned more about the spirituality people see in body modification.

I would also like to say that different people see that spirituallity differently, so please don't read something someone else wrote and then criticize me for it's perceived flaws.

The important thing is that I don't fear the judgement of others, so there is no reason to guide my activities based on that judgement.

Have you read any literature on a complete ending of the self? This board is dedicated to a complete ending of the self and as far as I can tell this body modification activity that you indulge in is an activity of the self so I probably wont be the first person to cut you up on this.

That's fine. Cut away. Ultimately you're expressing your point of view and I would never encourage otherwise.

I haven't read anything about the ending of the self, but I will make it a point to do so as you (and apperently many others on this board) clearly find it to be one of the major goals of the journey. Could you recomend something?

what is the psychological motivation behind wanting to belong to a greater group and identity with that group? Is it possible to stand completely alone on ones journey to dispel confusion from the mind?

is this church of yours just another psychological crutch? I could be wrong and perhaps you could make a persuasive argument to how this is not the case.

I'd say the motivation to belong to a group is rooted in insecurity and fear. I have never met another member of the church, and that's not why I joined. My primary motive was to legally protect myself from discrimination, though I would not have joined if I did not agree with the basic doctrine of the church.

Exceptions to my agreement: I don't believe that body modification is essential to spirituality, or required to be whole in mind, body and soul. I don't believe I have a soul.

For many people the COBM could easily be a psycological crutch. For me it is not.

Yes, I believe it's possible to stand alone on the journey. I do my best to make sure that my self esteem is never based on the acceptance of others, even my closest friends. After all, friends are friends because of mutual respect, not because they like the way you look.

[Ryan Rudolph]

self-mutilated Bigfoot wrote:

It wasn't just a strong act of will that allowed me to get this modification. It' not simply that I forced myself to sit and feel the pain. It's that I was governing my mind's reaction to the pain, ignoring the impulse to tense up against it. That tension would have increased the pain by at least 100%, and it would have then been unbearable.

This is a weak justification on your part and deep down you know it.

It is still an act of will. So you believe that you are cultivating some sort of skill that will better improve your tolerence to pain, but this activity is still incredibly shallow.

Physical pain is nothing compared to psychological pain. Developing a tolerance to physical pain does not better prepare you for handling psychological pain. What are you gaining by doing this? there is nothing to gain here.

wait, actualy by controlling the amount of physical pain that is adminstered this makes you feel powerful, this is a control issue, you are terrified to be completely powerless agaisnt your own psychological pain so you escape through feeling physical pain instead.

You are merely indulging in an escape.

This is a compulsive behavior that has absolutely no value and any attempt you make to place value on it is absurd.

It doesn’t matter whether Buddha did it, or Michael Jackson or Jesus Christ Superstar, the fact of the matter is that when there is intelligence operating, one doesn’t willfully inflict pain onto themselves.

I just don’t see the wisdom in it.

And thus far you have failed to provide a convincing argument as to why body modification is acceptable/intelligent.

[SasQuatch9585]

Things which everyone can agree are evil. Succinctly speaking, a violation of another's human rights. Such rights including, but not limited to: free will, the search for happiness, self expression, the right to live and be healthy.

That's a weak definition because it's based purely on consensus of a majority. Some of the rights you mention are not valued by all. Some deny the existence of free will, some laugh about 'happiness' in relation to truth. Nature itself wants to express, live and survive, so you're saying here that Life is good and what denies Life is evil? But sometimes life cuts into itself as well, following the mysterious ways of Nature.

That's a valid point. Certainly not everyone sees those things as evil.

Cory Patrick changed his quote for one of the previous posts to say "Good is the root of all evil". That made me laugh, but it also reminded me of something else from Tao Te Ching.

So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to
(the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the
idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the
figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from
the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and
tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and
that being before and behind give the idea of one following another

So then evil is defined subjectively by each person, and a thing or event can only be judged as evil when compared to their idea of good. I'd imagine Nazis saw the slaughter of Jews as good. I'd imagine September 11th was a good day for some people.

One could make the case that murder, rape and slavery are all too human. Suppression of others seems to be in the nature of man itself. So your 'humanization' is a specific model of an ideal man which you define to be 'human' and all other manifestations of human spirit you suppress or at least stamp 'evil' and 'inhuman' on it.

However one defines good and evil, both are part of the human condition. A better phrase than "supression of the human spirit" would be "supression of the happines of others".

As far as happiness in relation to truth, I can't speak to that. I haven't read anything on this relation. I know that happiness exists as a state of mind, and that I enjoy it. Attempting to take someone's happiness, however one defines it, is what I meant by 'supression of the spirit'.

Hierarchies are a simple way to organize groups. Organization is good for survival of the whole tribe, not only the individual members. At some level the members feel 'as one' in the tribe and will succumb to any structure that upholds the group. Not only knowing your place but (sometimes forced) acceptance of the place is important. And challenges of positions are an important part of this dynamic as well, to weed out for example weak leaders or deceptive ones ('liars').

All of this is true. My objective is to exist outside the pecking order because I'm not concerned with the survival of any group, or that of the human race as a whole. It seems to be doing fine without me.

Existing outside that order relieves me of having to be concerned with my place within it. Also, I don't believe being part of a pack is neccesary for my own personal survival or fulfillment.

The quest for world domination, for example is the quest to become the king of the mountain. To control the destiny of others. To gain the highest place in the pack, granting you the ultimate power. One who seeks such power (even on smaller scales) feels powerless in and of themselves.

You make a rather large assumption here between the drive to power and the perceived lack of such. Nietzsche called this lack 'ressentiment' and 'revenge' - the way for the powerless to get back at the powerful. But generally it needs power to climb the ladder of power. Power makes one seek for more expressions of it. It's like the gospel story about the talents of money

That's true. I made the assumption that the only reason to seek world domination is that the seeker feels powerless. You're right that someone who feels powerful will want to feel more powerful, and this could also be a drive for such power.

Also, there could conceivably be other motives for seeking such power.

Many people think that rape is motivated by an unsatisfied sex drive. Psycologists disagree, and so do I. You must be angry to rape. Prostitution is about an unsatisfied sex drive. Rape is about control.

Rape is a violent act, penetration against someones will. But the causes are more varying. For example in wartime it was not uncommon for women of a conquered village to be mass raped and the current children killed. This way domination was established and the rapists own (or tribal) genes were forcefully spread. This behavior is still wired into the tribal nature of the human race. Modern day rape seems a direct tapping into a primitive drive that does not accept the needed patience for negotiation and courting. The rapist 'forces' himself unto the victim out of pure natural efficiency, no matter how cruel it's perceived as, or how society will punish the rapist. The 'freedom' the Western society enjoys comes with a price of admission: the control of the primitive urges and needs a system of control (courts, police, camera's, DNA test, lie detectors, tip lines and so on) to create all this 'freedom'. In the past this system of control was more religion and other now unaccepted cultural ritual or tradition.

Domination is control. The rejection of a woman's demands for patience, negotiation and courting (her way of controling who mates with her) and forcing yourself upon her is control.

The example I gave of the man who felt out of control in his personal life was intended as one example of how a man might be motivated to rape, not an explaination of why every rapist rapes.

At least he was in touch with his deeper feelings. Are you?

Shakespear wrote, "To thine own self be true." Somebody else wrote, "Know thy self." I agree with both of these and I do my best to know what I'm feeling and why I'm feeling it, so yes, I believe I am.

I was once very full of anger and hatred. It was coming to understand the root of those emotions that allowed me to escape them, though I will never allow myself to believe that my emotional state is perfect, lest I stop looking for flaws.

...I'm not sure why the need for power or control would be 'evil'. If one is really lacking in this why not strive for it? Someone who has low health will desperately need a better health and try to make steps toward it. Isn't this the direction of the life force itself? Life looks for more life, power looks for more power and reason looks for better reasoning.

It is the need for power and control over others that I find evil. As those things apply to one's self, I believe it is to be sought after. Someone who needs takes away your own power and control over yourself and substitutes it for their own is not, in my estimation, secure.

Feeling powerless inside yourself means (probably) that you feel others around do have power. Your natural insecurity tells you that they are therefore more important.

No, your natural instincts tell you they are more important. Even if that's not always the case but one is just wired that way.

I believe your instincts (i.e. your ability to subconciously read body language and facial expression, among others) tells you they have more power. Your insecurity tells you that this means they're more important than you. I do not believe that insecurity is 'wired' into us, but conditioned into us. 'Wired' implies it's unchangeable, but if that's not what you meant by it, I retract that remark.

Then begins jelousy and hatred of them for making you feel less important (when really it's just your own mind making you feel smaller).

This is better known as ressentiment. The moment you feel you cannot enlarge your own power, a defensive position is taken to devalue the power of those as perceived 'above' you. Even the whole concept of up and down in questioned as to even the odds.

Yes, I agree. My point is that you don't need this kind of power to survive anymore, so I've found it more rewarding to let go of the struggle for it.

...sometimes power is just power and better be respected.

What if it's not respected? What if someone actively rejects your (and I don't literally mean you) display of power over them. Then they are at the very least asserting equality. Your need for power then encourages you to punish them for their assertion. Just so you can feel powerful again. I find it pointless.

My concern is that I like my appearance, the same as anyone else. The difference is that whether others like it has nothing to do with whether I like it.

I don't know really but isn't this whole quest just a battle against your own insecurity? Just a counter feeling of trying to compensate with forced security?

I don't feel anxious about my appearance before a body modification, or better about it afterward. Whether I like it means satisfying my own artistic and aesthetic taste.

Personally I think the higher road is to not care about ones own appearance at all, apart from the purely functional. Ones own concerns are often mirrored by the perceived rejection of others. And ones own compensation behavior will raise eyebrows of course since it's seen for what it is: a strong emotional preoccupation with one own body.

I know that my behavior in body modification raises a lot of eyebrows, and I'm sure it's seen as compensation for insecurity, but I'm not preoccupied with my own body. This is your interpretation, and not neccesarily my motivation.

Decorating your house doesn't always mean you're preoccupied with its appearance.

Chasing down things to pacify your insecurities is not the path to happiness because it doesn't satisfy your soul. It satisfies someone else's judgement. Confronting and defeating my insecurities has been the key to my happiness. It's an amazing freedom to not care what someone else thinks of you.

The greatest enemy is ones own judgement, not those from other. But it's also ones greatest ally.

I agree. Your own fear of what someone else thinks of you is really just based on your assumptions about what they're thinking. Just a creation of your own head.

Letting go here means leaving the social structure, where clothes and appearance loosely define status and identity. And for leaving a social order one has to be strong of heart and mind, an individual.

Absolutely right.

But which new rules and uniforms will be taken upon oneself now? Man is a social creature and will define some identity even after escaping some pack. And he will conform to this new identity with new rules. And feel secure again, having found a new place in a newly found, perhaps less visible, pecking order, unchallenged.

I agree that escaping the social structure means redefining your identity, but I don't feel my security comes from fitting into a new/different pecking order. It comes from knowing that I don't have to conform to any rules of action, appearance or emotion, beyond my own ideals. No one in my life tries to have power over me and I feel I have no power over others.

[DHodges]

My concern is that I like my appearance, the same as anyone else. The difference is that whether others like it has nothing to do with whether I like it.

My experience with body modification is pretty limited. I had my left nipple pierced back around 1997. They insisted that had to come out for a surgery I had around the end of 1998, so I lost that, but a year or so later I got the right nipple pierced and I still have that one.

At this point I will probably just take it out and be done with it, because I'm pretty neutral about it. It's just an extra thing that needs washing in the shower. So it's kind of pointless, really.

I've had girlfriends with a variety of tattoos, and one with a pierced tongue. On girls, I find that pretty sexy.

Anyway, I don't see anything particularly spiritual about it. I do understand that some people have a need to gain a sense of control over their own bodies, often because of abuse when they were children, or just a negative body image. So that perhaps can be psychologically healthy, to establish that sense of control over one's self, and that may be something that needs to be established before spirituality can be approached.

[SasQuatch9585]

Cosmic Prostitute,

I don't modify myself. I hire professionals to do it for me.

It wasn't just a strong act of will that allowed me to get this modification. It' not simply that I forced myself to sit and feel the pain. It's that I was governing my mind's reaction to the pain, ignoring the impulse to tense up against it. That tension would have increased the pain by at least 100%, and it would have then been unbearable.

This is a weak justification on your part and deep down you know it.

This is not an attempt at justification. I don't care whether you see it as a valid pursuit.

It is still an act of will. So you believe that you are cultivating some sort of skill that will better improve your tolerence to pain, but this activity is still incredibly shallow.

Physical pain is nothing compared to psychological pain. Developing a tolerance to physical pain does not better prepare you for handling psychological pain. What are you gaining by doing this? there is nothing to gain here.

Yes, it is still an act of will. Yes, I am increasing my tolerance for pain. Yes, psychological pain is much worse than physical pain, and you're absolutely right, tolerance for the physical does nothing for psychological. This is not my objective.

I don't believe I'm gaining or improving any ability to cope with psychological pain. What I gain is an increased ability to focus and a scar which I find aesthetically pleasing. Minimizing the pain is something I do to make it easier to get this scar.

wait, actualy by controlling the amount of physical pain that is adminstered this makes you feel powerful, this is a control issue, you are terrified to be completely powerless agaisnt your own psychological pain so you escape through feeling physical pain instead.

You are merely indulging in an escape.

Controlling or experiencing the pain doesn't make me feel powerful. I am not using body modification to escape psychological pain. I have already escaped my psychological pain.

Psychological pain comes from your perspective on a situation. You see something as rude, you feel offended. You see something as a loss, you feel pained by it. You see something as betrayal you feel angry and pained, or whatever your logic tells you to feel...whatever you tell yourself to feel. The fact is, if you believe you should feel psychological pain because of your situation, you'll feel it.

Letting go of psychological pain has been, for me, a matter of adjusting my perspective on my past. I no longer see my past as a reason for anguish and angst, hatred and resentment. As such, I no longer feel those things.

I understand that my perspective creates my emotions, so when bad things happen in my life I don't see it as useful to make myself feel bad about it because that would just make my own situation worse, and make me less able to make reasonable decisions about how to react to it. There's no point in denying or being angry about crap that goes wrong for me. I skip right to acceptance of the situation and begin trying to resolve it.

Your emotions are not the direct and unavoidable result of the situation you're in. They are your mind's reaction to that situation. I did not learn this from body modification.

This is a compulsive behavior that has absolutely no value and any attempt you make to place value on it is absurd.

The Koran has no value to a Christian, the Tao no value to a Jew. It's not neccesary for you to see value in the activity for it to have value to me.

Body modification is not, for me, a compulsion. I put a lot of thought into what modifications I get (even piercings, which are basically temporary, save minor scars if I remove them), and so, don't wind up doing it very often. There's nothing uncontrollable about it. I feel no desire to experience pain.

It doesn’t matter whether Buddha did it, or Michael Jackson or Jesus Christ Superstar, the fact of the matter is that when there is intelligence operating, one doesn’t willfully inflict pain onto themselves.

Is intelligence not opperating when a woman chooses to have a child? Even if she gets an epidural for the delivery there will be months of vomiting, cramping, swelling, joint pain...discomfort of all kinds.

Is intelligence not opperating when a student decides to go to college? There will be years of studying, exams, stress...

Is it unintelligent for a woman to pierce her ears?

Is it unintelligent to exercise?

Is it unintelligent to build a house? How much back pain must be involved in that? I suppose if you live in a nomadic society, it's pointless to build a house. In that case it's very unintelligent.

I just don’t see the wisdom in it.

You needn't for there to be any.

And thus far you have failed to provide a convincing argument as to why body modification is acceptable/intelligent.

That's fine. It's not my goal to convince people it's acceptable or intelligent. Further, how convincing an argument is has as much or more to do with the mind hearing it as it does with the argument itself.

Your replies on this subject have been full of judgement and venom. I'm sure there are many, many people who modify themselves about which everything you've said is absolutely true. I make no defense of their motives or emotional security.

[SasQuatch9585]

My experience with body modification is pretty limited. I had my left nipple pierced back around 1997. They insisted that had to come out for a surgery I had around the end of 1998, so I lost that, but a year or so later I got the right nipple pierced and I still have that one.

If your piercing was stable and completely healed, and if you were wearing jewelry that was safe for your body (your artist should have used implant-grade steel--the stuff they make hips from--but too many don't), and if they weren't operating in the area there's no reason your jewelry couldn't have stayed where it was.

In my experience the medical community is very paranoid and a little ignorant about body modifications like piercings. For example, you can't give blood if you've been tattooed or pierced in the last year, dispite any assurances or evidence you might be able to bring as to the sterility of the environment. It seems silly to me that they'd make you remove a nipple piercing, but anyone with cheap jewelry in their ears is okay.

The only concern regarding body modification and surgury that I'm aware of is that if you've had recent surgury you need to heal completely from it before you get modified. Your body will actually prioritize its wounds and completely ignore a new piercing (maybe a new tattoo, too) until it's done healing from the surgury, leaving you far more open to infection. Also, it'll be sensitive and painful the whole time, and what fun is that?

Anyway, I don't see anything particularly spiritual about it. I do understand that some people have a need to gain a sense of control over their own bodies, often because of abuse when they were children, or just a negative body image. So that perhaps can be psychologically healthy, to establish that sense of control over one's self, and that may be something that needs to be established before spirituality can be approached.

That's cool man. I'm not trying to suggest that spirituality is inherent to body modification, or that everyone should see it that way. It seems to me that spirituality is largely a collection of symbols to which people assign meanings. These symbols then allow them to tap into the spirituality that is inherent in themselves, not in their actions or rituals.

As far as gaining control over one's self...yeah. I can see that too. I'm sure it's true of many modified people. Especially if the abuse was physical or sexual. My parents were psychologically and emotionally abusive, and very controlling, so I can't say that wasn't part of the reason I started getting tattooed, though I don't remember taking any pleasure from the knowledge that they'd be offended by it (not that being conscious of something is required for it to motivate). I just remember thinking it'd make me look cool, which is a stupid and insecure reason to do it, but that was me ten years ago. Hell, that was me four years ago. Totally driven by insecurity.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sasquatch wrote:

I don't modify myself. I hire professionals to do it for me.

What a waste of money and energy.

Sasquatch wrote:

What I gain is an increased ability to focus and a scar which I find aesthetically pleasing. Minimizing the pain is something I do to make it easier to get this scar.

All that agony for an aesthetically pleasing scar? When I what to be aesthetically titillated, I go for a walk in the woods and it isn’t painful at all, it’s actually quite enjoyable.

Do you see a difference between these two activates? Is one much more intelligent than the other?

Sasquatch wrote:

I have already escaped my psychological pain.

yes, you've been doing it quite frequently with me. We dont want to escape it, we want to transend it.

However the quality of your posts do illustrate a certain emotional intelligence, but that does not change how silly I believe this behavior is.

Sasquatch wrote:

You see something as rude, you feel offended. You see something as a loss, you feel pained by it. You see something as betrayal you feel angry and pained, or whatever your logic tells you to feel...whatever you tell yourself to feel. The fact is, if you believe you should feel psychological pain because of your situation, you'll feel it.

Well put.

When the observer that identifies with each experience dies, then one only feels what others feel choicelessly.

Sasquatch wrote:

Your emotions are not the direct and unavoidable result of the situation you're in. They are your mind's reaction to that situation. I did not learn this from body modification

Yes, the brain is programmed to react - to protect itself. When the protector is whipped clean so is self-inflicted suffering.

Sasquatch wrote:

It's not neccesary for you to see value in the activity for it to have value to me.

Your statements have been so intelligent up to this point, why suddenly become a relativist?

I’m suggesting that there is an absolute truth as to whether or not this activity has value.

Sasquatch wrote:

I put a lot of thought into what modifications I get (even piercings, which are basically temporary, save minor scars if I remove them), and so, don't wind up doing it very often.

Isn’t there something of higher value that you could be putting your discontent/energy into? So much time and energy wasted.

Sasquatch wrote:

Is intelligence not opperating when a woman chooses to have a child?

That woman has no choice, you are willfully choosing these body modifications onto yourself.

Sasquatch wrote:

when a student decides to go to college?

It is usually fear of shame from parents, fear of being nothing, etc that pushes a child into college, if one is truly wise one doesn’t go to college.

Sasquatch wrote:

Is it unintelligent for a woman to pierce her ears?

Absolutely, women are pure vanity, there is nothing wrong with the body the way it is, why add to it? there is no inherent reason to add to it.

Sasquatch wrote:

Is it unintelligent to exercise?

Yes if it is contrived exercise. I know many people that run up and down treadmills at the gym, but they are such gerbils! The body only needs a limited amount of exercise, the odd walk is fine, you do not have to plan exercise.

Sasquatch wrote:

Is it unintelligent to build a house? How much back pain must be involved in that?

Yes, but there is no choice with a house, one needs shelter, but one does not need to mutilate their body.

Sasquatch wrote:

You needn't for there to be any.

Stop swarming away from the truth with your relativist statements. You are like a worm - trying to evade the inevitable fish hook of truth – stay still damn it.

Sasquatch wrote:

Your replies on this subject have been full of judgement and venom.

Just because one judges does not does mean there is venom, There is only the obsessive desire to discover the truth to the worth of this activity that you pertake in.

[SasQuatch9585]

When I what to be aesthetically titillated, I go for a walk in the woods and it isn’t painful at all, it’s actually quite enjoyable.

That seems like a matter of preference to me. That walking in the woods is enjoyable is a judgement that many people, including I, would make. Someone who does not enjoy the outdoors would not have the same emotional experience in that setting.

I have already escaped my psychological pain.

yes, you've been doing it quite frequently with me. We dont want to escape it, we want to transend it.

I have transcended my psychological pain. That's what I meant when I said escaped, though I can see that I used the wrong word. I no longer experience psychological pain in any context.

However the quality of your posts do illustrate a certain emotional intelligence, but that does not change how silly I believe this behavior is.

Okay.

When the observer that identifies with each experience dies, then one only feels what others feel choicelessly.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by this. "The observer that identifies with each exerience," I think means the part of myself that I used to feel was helplessly connected to and thrown about by my experiences. Are you then saying that such a person would have no choice but to feel what others feel, or that such a person feels the same thing that others feel, but others feel it choicelessly, whereas this person has a choice?

It's not neccesary for you to see value in the activity for it to have value to me.

I’m suggesting that there is an absolute truth as to whether or not this activity has value.

Perhaps there is such an absolute truth in this regard, but I don't think so. However, if there is it still doesn't require you to see such truth for it to exist.

But for me it is not the experience of being modified that holds the value. You can get as many burns as you want and not learn a damned thing from it. It's the focusing that's neccesary to minimize pain that I find valuable.

Isn’t there something of higher value that you could be putting your discontent/energy into? So much time and energy wasted.

There are several things that you would judge to be of higher value that I put my energy into. I'm an artist, singer, guitar player, and beginning drummer. I also love reading, and I'm learning Spanish.

Is intelligence not opperating when a woman chooses to have a child?

That woman has no choice, you are willfully choosing these body modifications onto yourself.

That woman absolutely does have a choice. Even if she becomes pregnant without any forethought, the moment she's aware of it she has a choice as to whether to carry the child to term. You might think she doesn't deserve to have a choice, but she certainly does.

It is usually fear of shame from parents, fear of being nothing, etc that pushes a child into college, if one is truly wise one doesn’t go to college.

True, those things are among the many reasons people attend college, but you're saying that no one who has ever reached a state of true wisdom has ever then chosen to attend college.

Also, I said 'student', not 'child'. Many people return to school in later adulthood as a means of advancing their carreer or increasing the depth of their knowledge. Niether seems inherently unwise to me.

Is it unintelligent for a woman to pierce her ears?

Absolutely, women are pure vanity, there is nothing wrong with the body the way it is, why add to it? there is no inherent reason to add to it.

I concede this point. There is nothing wrong with the body the way it is, and no inherent need to add to it. Most women (as most of humanity) strike me as utterly swamped in insecurity, vanity being another guise thereof, and I'm sure the primary reason women pierce their ears is because their friends all had pierced ears when they were young.

There is no inherent need to decorate one's house either. People do it to increase its aesthetic appeal. That's why I decorate my body. Neither is inherently insecure. If your motive for decoration is the approval of others, it's insecure. If it's just to suit your own tastes, I don't feel it's an expression of insecurity or security.

Is it unintelligent to exercise?

Yes if it is contrived exercise. I know many people that run up and down treadmills at the gym, but they are such gerbils! The body only needs a limited amount of exercise, the odd walk is fine, you do not have to plan exercise.

This is agian your judgement, and unless you're a cardiologist I can't imagine what it's based on. Your heart is also a muscle, and doctors say that regular aerobic excersize is benificial to longevity and minimizes the risk of heart disease. Simply walking won't raise your heart rate.

Is it unintelligent to build a house? How much back pain must be involved in that?

Yes, but there is no choice with a house, one needs shelter, but one does not need to mutilate their body.

One doesn't need to build a house to find shelter. Leather and wood tents served Native Americans for thousands of years.

Stop swarming away from the truth with your relativist statements. You are like a worm - trying to evade the inevitable fish hook of truth – stay still damn it.

Thus far you've failed to provide a convincing argument as to the existence of absolute truth pertaining to the value of body modification.

Just because one judges does not does mean there is venom, There is only the obsessive desire to discover the truth to the worth of this activity that you pertake in.

That there is venom is only my interpretation of it. It's based on words and phrases like "incredibly shallow", "absurd", "bizarre and silly", "extreme behavior", "cut you up". All strike me as somewhat insulting and that last one, while obviously a metaphor, seems downright aggresive.

If I've misinterpreted your words, I concede the point.

[DHodges]

I’m suggesting that there is an absolute truth as to whether or not this activity has value.

Perhaps there is such an absolute truth in this regard, but I don't think so. However, if there is it still doesn't require you to see such truth for it to exist.

It seems to me that a value is by definition subjective, something a person has or holds, a relative judgement, and can not be objective or absolute.

[Cory Duchesne]

SasQ: One doesn't need to build a house to find shelter. Leather and wood tents served Native Americans for thousands of years.

I agree. I'm reading a book right now about a movement of homesteaders in Maine. There was a guy who would travel from farm to farm in the U.S. living in a Teepee that he would construct whenever he arrived at a new farm to work. He would make a fire inside the teepee and the smoke would go out the hole at the top.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

As far as happiness in relation to truth, I can't speak to that. I haven't read anything on this relation. I know that happiness exists as a state of mind, and that I enjoy it. Attempting to take someone's happiness, however one defines it, is what I meant by 'suppression of the spirit'.

This relation between happiness and spirit is something that needs to be explored or defined further by you, in my view.

My objective is to exist outside the pecking order because I'm not concerned with the survival of any group, or that of the human race as a whole. It seems to be doing fine without me.

It would be interesting to know what your concerns or priorities then are, deep down. Even individual concerns often serve the species as a whole, since it's a form of experimenting with deviant 'strategies' that may provide useful in terms of evolution. One doesn't have to survive or procreate to be still part of Nature's or Culture's game, you know.

Existing outside that order relieves me of having to be concerned with my place within it. Also, I don't believe being part of a pack is neccesary for my own personal survival or fulfillment.

Study the means of your daily survival and from where your physical security is coming from and you'll find out there's still a hidden pecking order, rules and laws attached. In modern society it's possible to keep many mechanisms out of sight, but how detached is one from them, really?

Just because one doesn't feel the need to challenge or confront a certain order doesn't mean one is 'outside' it. It means only one has made peace with it, at some level.

Domination is control. The rejection of a woman's demands for patience, negotiation and courting (her way of controling who mates with her) and forcing yourself upon her is control.

Yes, it's a primitive desire for control, or it could be called one polarity of the pure masculine sexuality. The greatest power is to master oneself, by deep understanding and deliberate action flowing from that. But in a society were rape is severely punished, other forms and systems of control are created to direct these masculine primitive impulses toward, or to suppress and destroy them altogether. Sadly enough philosophy is not amongst the ones that are sponsored.

The example I gave of the man who felt out of control in his personal life was intended as one example of how a man might be motivated to rape, not an explanation of why every rapist rapes

Okay. I thought you gave a good example of a drive bubbling up in a life where any other masculine outlets have been blocked. Not that I'm blaming only society for violent men.

I was once very full of anger and hatred. It was coming to understand the root of those emotions that allowed me to escape them, though I will never allow myself to believe that my emotional state is perfect, lest I stop looking for flaws.

Good, so you know the 'dark side', but you know perhaps it's impossible to 'escape them'. Sublimating or transforming is the only way, unless you castrate yourself in some way.

This is better known as ressentiment. The moment you feel you cannot enlarge your own power, a defensive position is taken to devalue the power of those as perceived 'above' you. Even the whole concept of up and down in questioned as to even the odds.

Yes, I agree. My point is that you don't need this kind of power to survive anymore, so I've found it more rewarding to let go of the struggle for it.

The lack of need for it that you describe might be wholly circumstantial and temporary. Though it seems a growing desire in our modern society to become anti-hierarchy, anti-power, anti-rules while as well living anti-risk and prosperous. In my opinion this is a collision course and won't work.

Diebert:"...sometimes power is just power and better be respected."

What if it's not respected? What if someone actively rejects your (and I don't literally mean you) display of power over them. Then they are at the very least asserting equality. Your need for power then encourages you to punish them for their assertion. Just so you can feel powerful again. I find it pointless.

One is most often free to reject. The question must be if it's wise for the one rejecting the perceived power difference. I don't think it's in most cases about punishing others for not paying respect.

I don't feel anxious about my appearance before a body modification, or better about it afterward. Whether I like it means satisfying my own artistic and aesthetic taste.

Fair enough. It's an area I might just not understand. But to me art and the aesthetic is deeply connected to deeper subconscious currents, symbols and myths. I never find it to be a random pure personal act upon deeper examination.

Decorating your house doesn't always mean you're preoccupied with its appearance.

Maintenance is one thing, but putting time, money, blood, sweat and tears into the outward appearance of a house is to me a preoccupation with what others might say or some personal obsession with its appearance, often based on some deep identification with forms.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sasquatch wrote:

That there is venom is only my interpretation of it. It's based on words and phrases like "incredibly shallow", "absurd", "bizarre and silly", "extreme behavior", "cut you up". All strike me as somewhat insulting and that last one, while obviously a metaphor, seems downright aggresive.

If I've misinterpreted your words, I concede the point.

hehe. Honesty Sasquatch I have been testing to see whether you were emotionally attached to this body modification thing, however your answers do illustrate a certain emotional stability/sanity.

so overall I'm indifferent to what you do, carry on.