Ego: the belief in "I"

[unwise]

Jason: What's your sexual orientation Unwise? What are your thoughts on engaging in bestiality and pedophilia in order to integrate human/animal and adult/child characteristics?

If I were a homosexual, what difference would that make? Certainly you can see that this would not be a choice, right? Furthermore, if I found a need to have sex with a billygoat, that would not be a choice either. Are you people trying to tell me you believe in free will? Come on, that's rudimentary.

[suergaz]

Since free will is rudimentary, and that belief in it is superfluous, why not answer Jasons question directly? If not for the lack of inherent difference it would make, then at least to satisfy a human curiosity.

[unwise]

DVR: It has to do with being "strongly autonomous", resulting in "higher levels of mental functions, higher cognitive, moral, social, and aesthetic values and the development of a clear hierarchy in accordance with ones own authentic ideal".

Can you give me examples of higher moral, social and aesthetic values? Also, I have no idea what - 'the development of a clear hierarchy in accordance with ones own authentic ideal' - means.

You'd never go again on the road of disintegration. There's nothing to drive you toward it anymore. Once burned twice shy. A pity. Enjoy.

If I go on any new road of disintegration as your recommend, it will be because I am FORCED onto that road as I was before. Why do you all keep talking as though we have free will? We all do what we are prompted to do by circumstances. You attempt at shaming me is hardly the sort of force that would be required.

[Jason]

Jason: What's your sexual orientation Unwise? What are your thoughts on engaging in bestiality and pedophilia in order to integrate human/animal and adult/child characteristics?

If I were a homosexual, what difference would that make?

The difference it would make is that you would be sexually attracted to those of your own gender. Are you a homosexual or not?

Certainly you can see that this would not be a choice, right? Furthermore, if I found a need to have sex with a billygoat, that would not be a choice either. Are you people trying to tell me you believe in free will? Come on, that's rudimentary.

I'm not talking about free-will, I'm talking about this integration through sex and relationships idea that you wrote about in your previous post. You talked about androgyny, I'm talking about taking it further, interspecies and interage integration/balance.

[suergaz]

Unwise:

Why do you all keep talking as though we have free will?

We have will. Whether or not one calls it free or another calls it determined, won't make a difference, will it?

[unwise]

You talked about androgyny, I'm talking about taking it further, pan-species and pan-age integration/balance.

But you already are an animal.

Children - Do you need to have sex with children to remember clearly what it is like to be a child again? Are you not in touch with your inner child?

What you have lost light of, Jason, is that you are also a woman. That is why you will need to have a woman show you.

[unwise]

Sewergas: We have will. Whether or not one calls it free or another calls it determined, won't make a difference, will it?

Can you will yourself to be a homosexual? Can you will yourself to enjoy a turd for desert? Alrighty then. What is this will?

[Jason]

You talked about androgyny, I'm talking about taking it further, pan-species and pan-age integration/balance.

But you already are an animal.

Children - Do you need to have sex with children to remember clearly what it is like to be a child again? Are you not in touch with your inner child?

What you have lost light of, Jason, is that you are also a woman. That is why you will need to have a woman show you.

How do you know I have lost touch with my inner woman? I think you're being very selective. If I need a woman to show me the woman in me, why not an animal to show the animal in me, and a child to show the child in me?

[suergaz]

I can go as far as Unwise in the realization that "I" am everyone, and no-one.

When I look 'at' myself, as opposed to 'into' I see a man that I know. Everyone sees something different, no-one sees the same. I have never seen common knowledge as vulgar.

[unwise]

Yes, I can see that you are in touch with your inner child.

[suergaz]

Leyla:

Inserted 7/6/06, 12:22 a.m.]

6. Corollary: “I” as an effect point in the present, and a point of origin in the past (by way of a construct in the present necessitated by the Totality and all other things as part of the Totality) manifests as the experience of time and memory as personal “I.”

Convoluted, but acceptable so far :D

Defn, personal I: the “individual” (that conception/identity which is not divided by time/change in consideration of a present [effect-point] moment): continuity of experience through change and by identity (association)/differentiation (disassociation).

Also acceptable, but there's no way I call such definition beautiful. I feel I now have a pointy head having comprehended it. :D

Defn, other: an opposing and/or alternate point of origin in relation to personal I.

Defn, otherness: the quality and experience of an other (per definition above) as part of yet separate to personal I.

Sure.

7. The existence of personal I is necessarily dependent upon the existence of an other/s. That is, it can only have (zag’s fundamentalist brand of) inherent existence insofar as it lacks it (duh) otherwise it could not possibly exist.

I'm flattered to appear in your work, but I can't take the credit for the inherency of existence.

8. Empirical forms are three- and four-dimensional objects.

What on earth is a four dimensional object?

9. One- and two-dimensional objects are not empirical forms: that is, they are a priori and can not exist as empirical forms/a posteriori.

Neat.

10. The a priori one- and two-dimensions are logically necessary to the human experience of three- and four-dimensional objects, even though such objects -- 1 and 2D -- literally cannot be experienced as empirical objects (only as a priori, ie via pure logic).

4 dimensional objects? I feel like the world is closing in on me. :D

11. Therefore, the nature of a priori knowledge is pure logic itself.

If I'm to sanction the use of this adjective for logic you'd best address logic you think is impure. :)

12. Therefore, it is possible to prove or disprove a priori knowledge through pure reason alone: by definition.

How is reason ever impure without failing to be what it is?


Please take my criticism with grace, if not graciousness. :D

[frank]

diebert wrote:- Unilevel integration, the animal, social level
- Disintegration
- Further disintegration (spontaneous)
- Even further disintegration (organized)
- Higher integration

What happens is that many are somewhere in this process, as consciousness has the tendency to give us some 'offset', and find themselves in a certain state of disintegration, distanced from life, neurotic and so on. The 'solution' exists in two directions.

Since nobody really wants further levels of disintegration unless there's an overarching love for truth, what most often happens is that people find through therapy, some philosophy, life experience (like romance) or other states of mind, the way back to more or less unilevel integration.

The sense I get from your input diebert is there are levels of conciousness..

Each 'I' represents a level of conciousness.

You think the satori or anima integration unwise and me got was a low level of conciousness.

You think there's a grade A thang above the rest called 'Enlightenment'.

Nevertheless you think each extant 'I' is a form of conciousness...and there are many forms...and an adjective is attached to each form..such as stupid, animal, woman, man, child, enlightened etc...

Is that it?

In Zen a rough description of conciousness splits into this...

Spotlight Conciousness.
Floodlight Conciousness.

This can be experienced when you drive a car and you are having a conversation with a passenger and your spotlight conciousness is involved with that person....and somehow you have miraculously driven across town..making an extraordinary series of mental computations to negotiate the trip safely..apparently unconciously...that's the floodlight conciousness...

In the mainstream, spotlight conciousness is insisted upon...as children our legs are smacked by parents or we are chastised by teachers if we drift off...Pay Attention! is the Command...
Our Spotlight goes from thing to thing..from one thing to the next...forever and ever.

In Zen the floodlight conciousness is fully experienced as that is understood to be where enlightenment occurs...or where awareness is..

The Zen Master then integrates these 2 forms of conciousness....he/she experiences 'spotlighting' an Activity and bringing the 'floodlight' of the 'fullness' of the experience to it...each movement of the body/mind is experienced that is required to fulfill the activity...in walking, awareness of each muscle/tendon contraction/release is 'experienced' as the leg does it's thing to move the body along...
Each activity can be experienced in it's fullness as the necessary sequence of events that it 'Is'...

It's quite beautiful.

frank

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Can you give me examples of higher moral, social and aesthetic values? Also, I have no idea what - 'the development of a clear hierarchy in accordance with ones own authentic ideal' - means.

Those things must be alien to you, this comes as no surprise. Values, strong likes and dislikes, judgements, dedication, radicalism, faith, certainty, they all have deluded forms as well as higher forms, depending on where they are derived from; how clear they are. Not radiating these is just some undifferentiated form of consciousness. I'm describing things as they are in my view here, and if shame is derived from it, or attack, that's up to the listener.

If I go on any new road of disintegration as your recommend, it will be because I am FORCED onto that road as I was before. Why do you all keep talking as though we have free will? We all do what we are prompted to do by circumstances. You attempt at shaming me is hardly the sort of force that would be required.

Well, you might say then I'm just a possible circumstance, forced to exist for you. I'm prompted by just another set of causes. So what is it what you're saying exactly? My posts are not as personal targeted as you might think.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

hello Frank,

You think the satori or anima integration unwise and me got was a low level of conciousness.

That is how it appears to me based on what I have been reading so far from you both.

In Zen a rough description of conciousness splits into this...

Spotlight Conciousness.
Floodlight Conciousness.

No, your understanding is lacking. Maybe it's better to use three categories to explain:

• 'daylight (background) consciousness'. The oceanic, childlike awareness that Quinn mentioned earlier.
  
  'spotlight consciousness'. Awareness has grown and starts differentiating, creates suffering but culminates as well in science, research, inquiry and so on.
  
  'laser consciousness'. A rare and rather demonized form of awareness that cuts through the core.

making an extraordinary series of mental computations to negotiate the trip safely..apparently unconciously...that's the floodlight conciousness...

No, that's driving on automatic. Just some worn in neural pathways in the brain that do their daily routine. No need of awareness, just like digestion doesn't need it (though it doesn't mean we can't, just that it would form a distraction most of the time).

The Zen Master then integrates these 2 forms of conciousness....he/she experiences 'spotlighting' an Activity and bringing the 'floodlight' of the 'fullness' of the experience to it...

No, such flooding would wipe out the very function of the spotlight, it would stop the differentiating and filtering that makes any form of focus possible. The 'fullness' or the core of the experience needs some more penetrating light to get exposed. Some more precision!

each movement of the body/mind is experienced that is required to fulfill the activity...in walking, awareness of each muscle/tendon contraction/release is 'experienced' as the leg does it's thing to move the body along...

So... what is being accomplished by this sensation? Any other examples perhaps? Aren't you just spotlighting parts of your body here and becoming aware of their details and flood of sensations their functioning triggers in our brain? Is that such a big deal?

Each activity can be experienced in it's fullness as the necessary sequence of events that it 'Is'...

It's quite beautiful.

What you seem to be saying here is that your emotional reaction to the very sensations, that are only spotted when 'spotlight consciousness' becomes aware of them, floods you with feelings which you decided to call 'floodlight' consciousness or perhaps even a part of enlightenment.

[frank]

Spotlight Conciousness.
Floodlight Conciousness.

This split is realised in many Cultures.

Jung thought the 'spotlight' was the animus in women that required integration....the 'floodlight' being the anima in men for integration...

Psychology thinks the spotlight is left brain...the floodlight right brain...

The Greeks identified it as the Apollonian Archetype/Dionysian Archetype split...

'spotlight consciousness'. Awareness has grown and starts differentiating, creates suffering but culminates as well in science, research, inquiry and so on.

That's the Apollo Archetype...the Intellect, Left Brain...in the Head...the Greeks would do that all week but on the weekends they wanted to get out of the Head and 'find' Dionysius...they would build bonfires and do 'Pagan' stuff like dance, sing, drink, orgy...leave the Head and 'come to their senses'..
This was considered to balance them out and revitalise themselves and improve their 'thinking' when they got back to it.

frank wrote:
The Zen Master then integrates these 2 forms of conciousness....he/she experiences 'spotlighting' an Activity and bringing the 'floodlight' of the 'fullness' of the experience to it...

diebert wrote:
No, such flooding would wipe out the very function of the spotlight, it would stop the differentiating and filtering that makes any form of focus possible. The 'fullness' or the core of the experience needs some more penetrating light to get exposed. Some more precision!

No, it locates you in the body...brings full awareness of where you are, in your body...you realise how you are 'in Space and Time'...when you are in a room you are in a room, fully present..not absent minded.

It gives you detachment from the Activity so you can execute it with max effect with minimum effort.

I was 'raised a Male' which means 'in the Head' and I had a similar experience to unwise in that I got 'out of my Head' and 'came to my senses' with the Initiatory savvy of a Wise woman.

She had long, black hair and brown eyes and when I caught her gaze I was impressed with the moist, deep mystery of her eyes...she rose from her chair and glided with a grace and poise and peace I hadn't seen before...I wanted to know her so I pressed my Suit upon her...
I was hooked and she controlled the passage of the Romance quite deliberately from there...
My Naked Lust required expression but for weeks I was permitted only to hold hands...we sat in her lounge often being non verbal and gazing upon each other...flowers, scents, relaxing music..fine food...
I could only see her Sundays and Wednesday evenings ....the anticipation was great within me...to meet with her again.
Long Nature Walks, holding hands, conversations...led in the 2nd Month to caresses, nestling my face into her neck, drinking in the wonderful smell of her..light kisses...with her deftly moving herself aside from my too eager embrace...
As the Months went by my Senses were 'coming alive' for me and my body felt like that of a young colt..a 'spring' to my step...becoming revitalised.
She sent me away for a month..to not visit or phone her...many times my hand reached for the 'phone in my desire and impatience but I held fast to her wishes...
When we reconnected she let me shampoo her hair and gradually she revealed her nakedness to me over some weeks and allowed me to bathe her...and then I was allowed to reveal my nakedness and she bathed me...
And we spent weeks caressing, laying together naked without consummation...
She sent me away again for a Month...and my desire was intense and impatience maddening me...
but in that month something 'broke' and peace and grace and light filled my body...
When we came together again she could see from the peace written in my face that her Work was done and she opened herself for me and we made glorious, beautiful love and it continued for 1 year...she had connected me with my anima, and I will be ever profoundly grateful to her and her Wisdom and I understand unwise completely as he tells of his experience...that savvy gal got me out of my head and into my senses...
It doesn't matter if it's low level conciousness..but to have it is extraordinary..quite beautiful...

Each activity can be experienced in it's fullness as the necessary sequence of events that it 'Is'...

It's quite beautiful.


What you seem to be saying here is that your emotional reaction to the very sensations, that are only spotted when 'spotlight consciousness' becomes aware of them, floods you with feelings which you decided to call 'floodlight' consciousness or perhaps even a part of enlightenment.

No...filled with peace and lightness...no emotion like fear or anger or excitement...but calmness. like unwise says 'intuitive perception' increased.
Feeling Safe and of belonging in the World.
Not feeling separate and hostile to the World.
Being grateful for and ready to meet what happens next.

Hopefully unwise can elaborate.
Thanks diebert.

frank

[unwise]

Frank:

This split is realized in many Cultures.

Jung thought the 'spotlight' was the animus in women that required integration....the 'floodlight' being the anima in men for integration...

Psychology thinks the spotlight is left brain...the floodlight right brain...

The Greeks identified it as the Apollonian Archetype/Dionysian Archetype split...

This is great to quickly bring up the eternal preoccupation of philosophers and scientists with the nature of the brain and its spit approach to cognition. Excellent. And true.

Here at the QVC (the QVC is a shopping network on TV selling trinkets), the right half of the brain is thrown out as UNCONSCIOUSNESS while the left half of the brain is held up as focused, male, superior, enlightened CONSCIOUSNESS.

But what actually happens in enlightenment is that the split brain is united. This means that focused consciousness and awareness is brought over to the intuitive, global, gestalt mind - and the intuitive, feeling and global mind is brought to bear on focused, singular, particular consciousness.

Even in a normal, good, romantic relationship, men and women are afforded a great deal of happiness simply in approaching the ideal. This is because, as Frank points out, women tend to favor right brain awareness (or unawareness) and men TEND to favor left brain awareness (or analytical focus). Men and women both find in a good, sexual relationship that they are slowly changing for the better and that things 'occur' to them that they never saw before - or appreciated. Also, the feel more 'whole.'

Even before enlightenment, I found that there was some sort of 'spiritual' dimension to sex. The sex act can feel very ancient. Like you have done this for millions of years and with millions of people (whom you miss). This new partner represents all those people, all that mystery. There is some sort of longing for integration, for acceptance, for unity that can appear in the sex act. And not only male/female integration, but full reconciliation with the mind/body fracture, the good/bad schism, the carnal/spiritual dismemberment.

In total integration, or enlightenment, the normal intuitive 'feeling' and connected mind is now brought under a very sharp light of male, analytic attention. The various levels of the psyche are broken down and 'seen.' This is not possible with the logician or male-obsessed individual who does not even acknowledge or contemplate the female mind which is full of depth below the surface of awareness like an iceberg in the sea. The analytic mind will not stop until everything is so broken down and separated that nothing appears. This is a sickness masquerading as the final vision.

[Leyla Shen]

Blimey, Charlie.

unwise wrote:

This is not possible with the logician or male-obsessed individual who does not even acknowledge or contemplate the female mind which is full of depth below the surface of awareness like an iceberg in the sea. The analytic mind will not stop until everything is so broken down and separated that nothing appears.

By definition, the masculine mind must "acknowledge" and contemplate everything in order to analyse its appearance.

Without the masculine mind, you would not be able to call anything a sickness. Yours is underdeveloped, that's all.

[Leyla Shen]

zag wrote:

Please take my criticism with grace, if not graciousness. :D

You call that criticism? Ha!

No wonder you find the need to ask me to take it with grace/graciousness.

There are a couple of things I will address later, though.

[unwise]

By definition, the masculine mind must "acknowledge" and contemplate everything in order to analyse its appearanc

It does not acknowledge nor contemplate - let alone 'grok' -intuition. synchronicity, inspiration, precognition, clairvoyance, telepathy, ESP, joy, etc.

[Jason]

It does not acknowledge nor contemplate - let alone 'grok' -intuition. synchronicity, inspiration, precognition, clairvoyance, telepathy, ESP, joy, etc.

What number have I got displayed as wallpaper on my computer?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Spotlight consciousness: awareness has grown and starts differentiating, creates suffering but culminates as well in science, research, inquiry and so on.

That's the Apollo Archetype...the Intellect, Left Brain...in the Head...the Greeks would do that all week but on the weekends they wanted to get out of the Head and 'find' Dionysius...they would build bonfires and do 'Pagan' stuff like dance, sing, drink, orgy...leave the Head and 'come to their senses'..
This was considered to balance them out and revitalise themselves and improve their 'thinking' when they got back to it.

Or perhaps it was quite a rational decision to give a way out for primitive destructive impulses in the 'weekends' so that greater clarity could be maintained during the 'week'. Instead of what we can see in less rational societies (like the modern West) where most is ruled by unconscious drives, camouflaged by rationalizations that don't have any substance really. Hypocrite, bizarro world.

The higher attainment was to bring awareness and clarity into the Dionysian state, merging the 'crucified' and 'Dionysius', to use a Nietzschean thought. (note: Nietzsche doesn't need any 'K'). The initiative for this remains Apollonian in nature though.

No, it [floodlight consciousness] locates you in the body...brings full awareness of where you are, in your body...you realise how you are 'in Space and Time'...when you are in a room you are in a room, fully present..not absent minded.

That's not an accomplishment. It's better to be awake than to be sleep-walking. In the same way it's better to be enlightened than to just be physical awake.

I was 'raised a Male' which means 'in the Head' and I had a similar experience to unwise in that I got 'out of my Head' and 'came to my senses' with the Initiatory savvy of a Wise woman.

No, being raised as male in that sense, means having some half baked level of awareness. Half grown, just a fragment, a body-part of what could have been. Jumping into the embrace of feminity does not 'make sense'. If not the masculine is taken 'into' her, it will blur the senses and nothing else. She has nothing to gain by promoting consciousness, it's her un-doing and she feels it.

(...) When we came together again she could see from the peace written in my face that her Work was done and she opened herself for me and we made glorious, beautiful love and it continued for 1 year...she had connected me with my anima, and I will be ever profoundly grateful to her and her Wisdom and I understand unwise completely as he tells of his experience...that savvy gal got me out of my head and into my senses...

Nothing new to that story, not to me anyway. The power of the feminine, magical, transforming - but not into anything wise I'm afraid. Getting in touch of our primitive core and the power of the senses is just a beginning, Frank. It's the magic of Lila, wrapped into a spiritual looking gown.

It doesn't matter if it's low level conciousness..but to have it is extraordinary..quite beautiful...

So you admit it would matter if higher levels of consciousness were the goal? And when a man is driven to chase after the higher, the extraordinary and the beautiful won't be enough. It would be like trying to trade brightly colored cloth, glass beads, shiny mirrors with a native. They will be excited for a while but lose interest soon.

Each activity can be experienced in it's fullness as the necessary sequence of events that it 'Is'...

It's quite beautiful.

I'm sure it is. How would you know if your consciousness, your truthfulness or your wisdom would have grown? If you care about those at all, that is.

....filled with peace and lightness...no emotion like fear or anger or excitement...but calmness. like unwise says 'intuitive perception' increased.

Some intuitive perception you'd like to share? Or does it remain a personal, private experience. Part of your idios cosmos?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Here at the QVC (the QVC is a shopping network on TV selling trinkets), the right half of the brain is thrown out as UNCONSCIOUSNESS while the left half of the brain is held up as focused, male, superior, enlightened CONSCIOUSNESS.

The idea, at least to me, is not to throw anything out, but to learn to see it for what it is. Bringing consciousness into the unconscious. That what is unconscious will then dissolve if it was a delusion, or end up as an identifiable subconscious process, traceable if needed.

But what actually happens in enlightenment is that the split brain is united. This means that focused consciousness and awareness is brought over to the intuitive, global, gestalt mind - and the intuitive, feeling and global mind is brought to bear on focused, singular, particular consciousness.

There is no 'split brain' in any sense. Both halves are already joined intimately in creating consciousness, memory, motives, drives. There is only what is hidden and what is not hidden (basking in light). Not sure how to imagine what a 'feeling and global mind' will do with singular consciousness. Isn't this a matter of adding wine to crystal clear water?

Even in a normal, good, romantic relationship, men and women are afforded a great deal of happiness simply in approaching the ideal.

What is a normal, good, romantic relationship? The only romantic part that is true to the definition is the degree they play out some archetypal story. The rest is just bait and one could say it normally ends in suffering because of the lack of awareness in the caught animal.

This is because, as Frank points out, women tend to favor right brain awareness (or unawareness) and men TEND to favor left brain awareness (or analytical focus).

If you'd really examine this more further you'll notice that in relationships men tend to become more feminine (unaware) and are rewarded with feelings of satisfaction (completing the family, natural script, and so on). Women in relationships will be more satisfied as well since she has now a source where she can exist through, as woman.

What a sorry codependent mess! Nature smiles and winks.

Even before enlightenment, I found that there was some sort of 'spiritual' dimension to sex. The sex act can feel very ancient.

Perhaps because it is? Submitting to millions year of genetic and behavioral programming must feel good!

There is some sort of longing for integration, for acceptance, for unity that can appear in the sex act. And not only male/female integration, but full reconciliation with the mind/body fracture, the good/bad schism, the carnal/spiritual dismemberment.

Nah, you're being fooled, like most. You're quite good in wrapping it up though, making it sound like something! All too human.

In total integration, or enlightenment, the normal intuitive 'feeling' and connected mind is now brought under a very sharp light of male, analytic attention. The various levels of the psyche are broken down and 'seen.'

This I'd agree with somewhat. Though I'd never call something "the normal intuitive feeling and connected mind". Such description only shows it hasn't been analyzed much at all. I mean: connected with what? Internal organs?

This is not possible with the logician or male-obsessed individual who does not even acknowledge or contemplate the female mind which is full of depth below the surface of awareness like an iceberg in the sea.

Her apparent depth is her trick. Like muddy waters can appear as such. The female mind has nothing to do with drives, instincts, racial memories. Nothing more or less than a 'male' mind has. It's only sounds like a nice place to hide oneself.

The analytic mind will not stop until everything is so broken down and separated that nothing appears. This is a sickness masquerading as the final vision.

Close to the truth. The analytical mind is driven by consciousness that needs to raise itself. It will break down delusion, and destroy anything what is called by QRS the 'feminine'. The feminine mindset objects to her destruction, emptiness is what she fears after all.

[sue hindmarsh]

unwise spewed forth:

This is great to quickly bring up the eternal preoccupation of philosophers and scientists with the nature of the brain and its spit approach to cognition. Excellent. And true.

Here at the QVC (the QVC is a shopping network on TV selling trinkets), the right half of the brain is thrown out as UNCONSCIOUSNESS while the left half of the brain is held up as focused, male, superior, enlightened CONSCIOUSNESS.

But what actually happens in enlightenment is that the split brain is united. This means that focused consciousness and awareness is brought over to the intuitive, global, gestalt mind - and the intuitive, feeling and global mind is brought to bear on focused, singular, particular consciousness.

Even in a normal, good, romantic relationship, men and women are afforded a great deal of happiness simply in approaching the ideal. This is because, as Frank points out, women tend to favor right brain awareness (or unawareness) and men TEND to favor left brain awareness (or analytical focus). Men and women both find in a good, sexual relationship that they are slowly changing for the better and that things 'occur' to them that they never saw before - or appreciated. Also, the feel more 'whole.'

Even before enlightenment, I found that there was some sort of 'spiritual' dimension to sex. The sex act can feel very ancient. Like you have done this for millions of years and with millions of people (whom you miss). This new partner represents all those people, all that mystery. There is some sort of longing for integration, for acceptance, for unity that can appear in the sex act. And not only male/female integration, but full reconciliation with the mind/body fracture, the good/bad schism, the carnal/spiritual dismemberment.

In total integration, or enlightenment, the normal intuitive 'feeling' and connected mind is now brought under a very sharp light of male, analytic attention. The various levels of the psyche are broken down and 'seen.' This is not possible with the logician or male-obsessed individual who does not even acknowledge or contemplate the female mind which is full of depth below the surface of awareness like an iceberg in the sea. The analytic mind will not stop until everything is so broken down and separated that nothing appears. This is a sickness masquerading as the final vision.

I get it unwise; you’re just a mindless idiot who loves women. I've put your feelings into an advertisement -

* * *

COME ONE AND ALL TO UNWISE’S EASY GUIDE TO PICKING UP WOMEN.

I GARUNTEE A 100% SUCCESS RATE AT GETTING THE LADIES TO SPREAD THEIR LEGS FOR ALL THOSE THAT FOLLOW MY ADVICE.

TELL ANY FEMALE WHO CATCHES YOUR EYE ANY, OR ALL, OF MY WONDEROUS INTUITIONS BELOW, AND WATCH THEM MELT INTO YOUR ARMS, AND THEN INTO YOUR BED.

1. Women have minds.
2. Women have depth.
3. ‘Enlightenment’ is the union between the feminine and the masculine mind.
4. Sex is spiritual.
5. Masculinity is unable to function correctly without the feminine.

And; as an added bonus, tell these loving words to any female (co-worker, mother, female bank-manager, etc) and she will know that you are a trust-worthy and good-hearted male. You will become a favorite son of society, winning the heart of every female, and the respect of every male that is trying to get one.

TAKE MY ADVICE, AND FOLLOW ME TO FEMININE HEAVEN. I PROMISE THAT YOU WILL NEVER BE WITHOUT WOMAN AGAIN.

* * *

I'm sure you'll get many takers - even a few from this forum.

Sue

[sschaula]

Sue summed up Unwise's ideas as:

1. Women have minds.
2. Women have depth.
3. ‘Enlightenment’ is the union between the feminine and the masculine mind.
4. Sex is spiritual.
5. Masculinity is unable to function correctly without the feminine.

Here's my take on these 5 ideas...

1 - Women obviously have minds. Anything that can do math has a mind. Anything that can walk and talk has a mind. It's just that a man's mind is more developed. And a philosopher's is even MORE.

2 - It's true that women don't have depth. Men only have depth. Whoever has a developed mind has a developed soul, and the soul is what has depth.

3 - Of course a person can't become enlightened through denying their feminine side. If a person was to just think abstractly all day, and not apply it to their consciousness throughout the day, they wouldn't get anywhere. Masculinity is thinking abstractly, and femininity is living it. Enlightenment is undoubtedly a combination of the two principles. Even more...you can't destroy femininity. The more you become masculine, the more feminine you'll be. The more you think of truth, the more it'll be integrated in your consciousness.

4 - Sex is spiritual....well what does spiritual mean? Does it mean feeling things that you aren't used to feeling? Does it mean entering a state of super-consciousness? Is it where you learn about scriptures, and what they really mean? I don't know...I'd say that sex is like doing anything else. The more integrated with truth you are, the more spiritual anything will be. If you're having sex, yet you see it clearly as a mirage, that is spiritual sex. If you're doing yogic poses, and your mind is only aware of the emptiness of everything, that's spiritual. If you're praying in church, and you're completely aware of the truth, that's spiritual. Driving a car...walking down the street...buying groceries...watching tv...

Of course it's tough to make everyday life spiritual...to constantly be aware of the absolute truth contained in David Quinn's "Wisdom of the Infinite". Having sex as a means to spirituality: I don't know. I don't think it's a good way to experience truth.

5 - Of course pure logic can't function well without integration. If you are deluded by the appearances of the world and your self, yet you think abstractly about the nature of the universe, you're not going to get it. That's the easiest place to fail with this path of thinking. The masculine indeed does depend on the feminine in this sense. A person's whole being must be thrown into the truth, so that all that's left is the truth. How could this be possible without both principles, the feminine and masculine?

[unwise]

If you've heard much about the Da Vinci Code and the movie, you know that the Catholic church has spent a couple thousand years torturing and murdering folks in order to keep THE ultimate heresy in check: that a divine being, Jesus, could possible have had sex, gotten married, and sired children.

So, you already know about Jesus and Mary.

Here is Krishna and Radha: enjoy