Avoidance of truth
Avoidance of truth
I notice that many I know and love seem to dislike truth. Not infrequently, I upset others by looking at the truth. Or trying to. I wonder if anyone has a suggestion. I don't try to force myself on anyone. Ever. I just have a fondness for getting to the core of whatever I find myself in. Maybe. I say maybe because on occasion I am one blind human. Thanks...
What do you mean by "truth"?
Do you mean that 2 +2 is 4 and that is the truth?
Or are you claiming that you know the "truth" of human interaction?
Because once you begin to assume you can read others' minds and you decide YOUR concept of why they are doing something by such a divination process is the "truth"... well, maybe THAT is why people find you so offputting?
But, what does "truth" mean to you and how are you using it?
Do you mean that 2 +2 is 4 and that is the truth?
Or are you claiming that you know the "truth" of human interaction?
Because once you begin to assume you can read others' minds and you decide YOUR concept of why they are doing something by such a divination process is the "truth"... well, maybe THAT is why people find you so offputting?
But, what does "truth" mean to you and how are you using it?
For instance- A friend manages a department in a grocery store. The store manager asks of her certain things she disagrees with and has a reaction, causing her discomfort. It is a pattern. I have suggested just going along with whatever the store manager asks, since he gets his way anyway. The reaction is a choice. I have just urged taking a closer look at the reaction. She chooses to resist over and over the managers wishes. I feel it is most unfortunate.
HMMM. Is it true that we have choices? Is it true that we can let go of control of outcomes? I feel that when I am being directed by a manager, I can go with the direction, regardless of my personal feelings or I can resist. If no harm will be caused by the managers direction, I will not even bother to care about how it goes. But that is me. I am a fool and I know it.
red,
We always have choices. The person who feels we are empty of choices are usually just trying to explain away their own inadequacies. Many of these people fall for overarching conspiracy theories.
We always have choices. The person who feels we are empty of choices are usually just trying to explain away their own inadequacies. Many of these people fall for overarching conspiracy theories.
Not quite the way to look at it. One must add self-interest into the mix. If the Manager's direction benefits you and causes no harm, there is every reason to acquiesce to his direction. If you are constantly causing yourself problems by obstreperousness, harming your self-interest then it is probably you and not everyone else that is the problem!If no harm will be caused by the managers direction, I will not even bother to care about how it goes. But that is me. I am a fool and I know it.
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Cory Duchesne
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Red wrote:
Have you ever been a dog owner, or have you ever interacted with a dog before?
Usually when you give a dog a pork chop, it will take the pork chop between its teeth and isolate itself until it is finished eating it. If you reach your hand down and motion toward the dog as if you are about to take the pork chop away, the dog will growl. This is the case with the most sweetest littlest of dogs.
Do you think dogs choose to react in aggression?
Likewise, your co-worker isnt choosing to react. The truth is, she cant help it. The pork chop she's holding onto is probably some feminist-type belief that was drilled into her head.
I don't think you are choosing to act the way you act either red. You have more awareness than this lady. And that's not a choice.
Even though you do find your self in a position where there is contemplation upon whether you should choose either/or - - that very position you are in is not a choice - that's just the way our brains work.
Red, you said you found your co-workers behavior unfortunate. Are you choosing to find her behavior unfortunate? Or is that just the way you feel? And we dont choose how we feel do we?
Cato wrote:
There are indeed possibilites, but the possibility that you manifest is not a choice. There are possibilites, but there is no choice. You are either in conflict (unconscious) or you are operating efficiently (conscious)
That woman is not choosing to be more unconscious - and Red is not choosing to be more conscious.
I am a person who 1) feels I have no choice or control. And 2) Works toward understanding and going beyond my flaws.
And conspiracy theories bore me.
Hello red,The reaction is a choice. I have just urged her to take a closer look at the reaction. She chooses to resist over and over the managers wishes. I feel it is most unfortunate.
Have you ever been a dog owner, or have you ever interacted with a dog before?
Usually when you give a dog a pork chop, it will take the pork chop between its teeth and isolate itself until it is finished eating it. If you reach your hand down and motion toward the dog as if you are about to take the pork chop away, the dog will growl. This is the case with the most sweetest littlest of dogs.
Do you think dogs choose to react in aggression?
Likewise, your co-worker isnt choosing to react. The truth is, she cant help it. The pork chop she's holding onto is probably some feminist-type belief that was drilled into her head.
I don't think you are choosing to act the way you act either red. You have more awareness than this lady. And that's not a choice.
Even though you do find your self in a position where there is contemplation upon whether you should choose either/or - - that very position you are in is not a choice - that's just the way our brains work.
Red, you said you found your co-workers behavior unfortunate. Are you choosing to find her behavior unfortunate? Or is that just the way you feel? And we dont choose how we feel do we?
Cato wrote:
Hello again cato,Cato: We always have choices. The person who feels we are empty of choices are usually just trying to explain away their own inadequacies. Many of these people fall for overarching conspiracy theories.
There are indeed possibilites, but the possibility that you manifest is not a choice. There are possibilites, but there is no choice. You are either in conflict (unconscious) or you are operating efficiently (conscious)
That woman is not choosing to be more unconscious - and Red is not choosing to be more conscious.
Cato: The person who feels we are empty of choices are usually just trying to explain away their own inadequacies. Many of these people fall for overarching conspiracy theories.
I am a person who 1) feels I have no choice or control. And 2) Works toward understanding and going beyond my flaws.
And conspiracy theories bore me.
Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cory,
But, if you feel there is never a choice, you are faced with the duty to explain why we attempt to make any decision at all on anything? After all, if we are pre-programmed to simply always "do" what is needed, why bother to think at all?
Thinking would be a needless complication. And the search for "enlightenment" a fool's errand.
I find the claim that we are simply wired animals with no freewill ridiculous.
I disagree entirely with the pre-programmed or pre-ordained assumption. I do agree that we have certain propensities that are a result of our nature or our biology. But, I feel man's mind makes him able to take certain steps to obviate his nature to enough of a degree that he is presented with choices in life.... I have no choice or control.
But, if you feel there is never a choice, you are faced with the duty to explain why we attempt to make any decision at all on anything? After all, if we are pre-programmed to simply always "do" what is needed, why bother to think at all?
Thinking would be a needless complication. And the search for "enlightenment" a fool's errand.
I find the claim that we are simply wired animals with no freewill ridiculous.
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suergaz
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MKFaizi
No offense to the person who posted this or to the posters who responded to it. I have no problem with this thread.Usually when you give a dog a pork chop, it will take the pork chop between its teeth and isolate itself until it is finished eating it. If you reach your hand down and motion toward the dog as if you are about to take the pork chop away, the dog will growl. This is the case with the most sweetest littlest of dogs.
Just observation.
When I come here and post observations about work or about dogs or about my kids or other kids, I am told that this is not a fireside chat. I am told that this is a philosophy forum and that I should comment only on philosophy.
What philosophy?
Faizi
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Cory Duchesne
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Cato,
Awareness is not a choice.
Did you choose to be born? Did you choose to grope for your mothers teet? To be a male? To dislike your vegetables? To like candy? Did you choose to be frightened, confused and guilty about what you did? Did you choose to cry? Did you choose to want to impress your mother? Did you choose to feel resentment towards the way your father treated your mother? Did you choose to feel love towards the pretty girl? to feel alienated, clumsy and awkward at a particular time in your life? Did you choose feel frightened? Did you choose to feel a frightened pressure to get a wife and get married? To feel lust? Did you choose to be ascribed with moral codes that told you what was morally appropriate to do and what was not? Do you choose to fear death?
Cato, give me an example out of your personal life that proves to me you had control – prove to me that you made a decision.
We have no choice to think Cato. And more often than not, our thinking is quite metaphorical to shit.
Anyhow,
Have you ever studied a Baby Cato? Watch how a baby (1-3yrs old) functions. The baby is constantly playing with things, experimenting, pushing limits, occasionally getting hurt, remembering, avoiding, pursuing, laughing, crying, etc, etc. We are born into this would involuntarily, and the way our brain responds to the stimuli of the world is involuntary.
What is your take on homosexuals Cato? Do you think they choose to be homosexual?
But perhaps you would prefer to ignore me? Well, again, your preference(your feelings) are not a choice.
Do what you will.
Cato, we don’t choose to make decisions. It is as simple as that.Cato: But, if you feel there is never a choice, you are faced with the duty to explain why we attempt to make any decision at all on anything?
Awareness is not a choice.
Did you choose to be born? Did you choose to grope for your mothers teet? To be a male? To dislike your vegetables? To like candy? Did you choose to be frightened, confused and guilty about what you did? Did you choose to cry? Did you choose to want to impress your mother? Did you choose to feel resentment towards the way your father treated your mother? Did you choose to feel love towards the pretty girl? to feel alienated, clumsy and awkward at a particular time in your life? Did you choose feel frightened? Did you choose to feel a frightened pressure to get a wife and get married? To feel lust? Did you choose to be ascribed with moral codes that told you what was morally appropriate to do and what was not? Do you choose to fear death?
Cato, give me an example out of your personal life that proves to me you had control – prove to me that you made a decision.
That is just like saying: “After all, if we are pre-programmed to shit, why bother shitting at all?Cato: after all, if we are pre-programmed to simply always "do" what is needed, why bother to think at all? Thinking would be a needless complication.
We have no choice to think Cato. And more often than not, our thinking is quite metaphorical to shit.
Anyhow,
Have you ever studied a Baby Cato? Watch how a baby (1-3yrs old) functions. The baby is constantly playing with things, experimenting, pushing limits, occasionally getting hurt, remembering, avoiding, pursuing, laughing, crying, etc, etc. We are born into this would involuntarily, and the way our brain responds to the stimuli of the world is involuntary.
What is your take on homosexuals Cato? Do you think they choose to be homosexual?
Well, I would say that becoming enlightened is largely produced by realizing why seeking for enlightenment is a fools errand. But merely believing me will get you nowhere.Cato: [if there is no choice] then the search for "enlightenment" is a fool's errand.
You are going to have to come up with some good reasons why, otherwise I will have no choice but to ignore you.I find the claim that we are simply wired animals with no freewill ridiculous.
But perhaps you would prefer to ignore me? Well, again, your preference(your feelings) are not a choice.
Do what you will.
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Cory Duchesne
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Marsha,Marsha: No offense to the person who posted this or to the posters who responded to it. I have no problem with this thread.
Just observation.
When I come here and post observations about work or about dogs or about my kids or other kids, I am told that this is not a fireside chat. I am told that this is a philosophy forum and that I should comment only on philosophy.
Are you sure that you are not just seeing what you wish was true, but isn’t?
I think that if you read over my post again, you will see that I was using the example of a Dog’s attachment to his pork-chop as an analogy. I was using an analogy to help convey my philosophical perspective.
I don’t know if you noticed, but the discussion on this thread is focused on whether or not there is choice. A fairly philosophical theme.
Do you think metaphors and analogies have a place in philosophy?
Cory,
You have a major chip on your shoulder, bro. You seem to assume I am trying to attack you, belittle you, or say you are stupid. I am merely disagreeing with your premise that we have no choices whatsoever. I can think you are wrong without thinking you are a lowlife that must be eliminated for your stupidity, you know?
But, then you say...
Now, I ask you... why should I respond to you as if you are anything other than a petulant child? Should I pat you on your little head, smile and say some soothing words about how smart a little fella you are?
Perhaps it would be a waste of time to even bother with you?
Yes?
No?
Hmmm. What "choice" do I make?
To test the waters with you I will address some of your questions...
--Did you choose to be born?
A question that has no bearing on the conversation at all. No choice can be made without birth to precede that opportunity. Additionally, no "nature" or preconditioning can occur without being preceded by birth. Therefore, birth is neither the "nature" nor the "choice" in question. You make a pointless distinction.
--Did you choose to grope for your mothers teet?[sic] To be a male?
More pointless distinctions. I did not say "nature" (and it's hardwired preconditions) does not exist. You might want to go back and re-read my last post. Of course, if you "chose" not to, then we really are wasting our time, eh? (By the way, that would be my Mother's "teat". Not "teet", hence the [sic]."Teet" is not a word. It might be a sound, though!)
--To dislike your vegetables?
Which ones? I like many veggies and always have.
--To like candy?
Which candy? I have hated some and always have. Further, I find that some no longer taste as good as they did. So, I no longer eat them. Also, some have proven to be bad for me. I chose no longer to eat those.
--Did you choose to be frightened, confused and guilty about what you did?
Again, a pointless distinction. Some things that people do are violations of societal conditions (causing that guilt, for instance) in some societies, yet not a problem at all in others. But, are you arguing for the "natural" law by saying that we automatically feel guilt by certain actions? If you are, then how do many people violate those natural laws so easily and constantly? If we are merely pre-programmed, such things should NEVER be violated and societal conditioning could never take if they might run contrary to such laws.
--Did you choose to cry? Did you choose to want to impress your mother? Did you choose to feel resentment towards the way your father treated your mother? Did you choose to feel love towards the pretty girl? to feel alienated, clumsy and awkward at a particular time in your life? Did you choose feel frightened? Did you choose to feel a frightened pressure to get a wife and get married? To feel lust? Did you choose to be ascribed with moral codes that told you what was morally appropriate to do and what was not?
All of those are neither universal, nor societally homogenous, nor things that cannot be obviated. For instance, I never ever "resented" how my Father treated my Mother. I may have been a bit upset from time to time over how he treated me, but I never had a single question in my whole life about how my Father treated my Mother.
--Do you choose to fear death?
I can. Or I can chose not to. Religious people claim not to fear it, for instance. Many have proven their case by dying for their religion. Ever heard of a Muslim suicide bomber? Maybe you have. They get in the news once in a while.
It is possible that you are arguing for the "it's all an illusion" theory. But, that is rather a pat theory that can only be taken on faith. After all, if it really is all an illusion, then your theory that we have no choice could be as illusory as mine that we do have a choice in certain instances. You are left with an unprovable point that must be believed as one accepts religious doctrine. Blindly and without proof.
Further more, you must also ignore the many choices you make each day and you must assume that you are living that illusion yourself. And doing that might just lead you to believe after a while that nothing really matters. After you reach that point, you might find some of your actions result in reactions that tend to make going a tad difficult in your life. And, if you are smart, you might begin to make different "choices" to then make your life better. After that whole circus, where does your feeling that "choices" are not made end up?
Ask a cleaned up addict if he thinks he he has never made any choices.
On the other hand you might just be saying that it would be impossible for you to make choices that result in a hard time for your life. Are you saying that you are so preconditioned that every move you make must result in the "right" move? Because if we are all pre-conditioned to insure life (because we fear death), it would be rather silly to imagine that any preconditioned responses would end in a bad outcome.
... or did you make the "choice" to "ignore" me???
It's your decision.
... or IS it?
You have a major chip on your shoulder, bro. You seem to assume I am trying to attack you, belittle you, or say you are stupid. I am merely disagreeing with your premise that we have no choices whatsoever. I can think you are wrong without thinking you are a lowlife that must be eliminated for your stupidity, you know?
But, then you say...
I see. So, you ARE making a choice after all! And that choice is to ignore me or discount me before you really have given me a chance at all.You are going to have to come up with some good reasons why, otherwise I will have no choice but to ignore you.
Now, I ask you... why should I respond to you as if you are anything other than a petulant child? Should I pat you on your little head, smile and say some soothing words about how smart a little fella you are?
Perhaps it would be a waste of time to even bother with you?
Yes?
No?
Hmmm. What "choice" do I make?
To test the waters with you I will address some of your questions...
--Did you choose to be born?
A question that has no bearing on the conversation at all. No choice can be made without birth to precede that opportunity. Additionally, no "nature" or preconditioning can occur without being preceded by birth. Therefore, birth is neither the "nature" nor the "choice" in question. You make a pointless distinction.
--Did you choose to grope for your mothers teet?[sic] To be a male?
More pointless distinctions. I did not say "nature" (and it's hardwired preconditions) does not exist. You might want to go back and re-read my last post. Of course, if you "chose" not to, then we really are wasting our time, eh? (By the way, that would be my Mother's "teat". Not "teet", hence the [sic]."Teet" is not a word. It might be a sound, though!)
--To dislike your vegetables?
Which ones? I like many veggies and always have.
--To like candy?
Which candy? I have hated some and always have. Further, I find that some no longer taste as good as they did. So, I no longer eat them. Also, some have proven to be bad for me. I chose no longer to eat those.
--Did you choose to be frightened, confused and guilty about what you did?
Again, a pointless distinction. Some things that people do are violations of societal conditions (causing that guilt, for instance) in some societies, yet not a problem at all in others. But, are you arguing for the "natural" law by saying that we automatically feel guilt by certain actions? If you are, then how do many people violate those natural laws so easily and constantly? If we are merely pre-programmed, such things should NEVER be violated and societal conditioning could never take if they might run contrary to such laws.
--Did you choose to cry? Did you choose to want to impress your mother? Did you choose to feel resentment towards the way your father treated your mother? Did you choose to feel love towards the pretty girl? to feel alienated, clumsy and awkward at a particular time in your life? Did you choose feel frightened? Did you choose to feel a frightened pressure to get a wife and get married? To feel lust? Did you choose to be ascribed with moral codes that told you what was morally appropriate to do and what was not?
All of those are neither universal, nor societally homogenous, nor things that cannot be obviated. For instance, I never ever "resented" how my Father treated my Mother. I may have been a bit upset from time to time over how he treated me, but I never had a single question in my whole life about how my Father treated my Mother.
--Do you choose to fear death?
I can. Or I can chose not to. Religious people claim not to fear it, for instance. Many have proven their case by dying for their religion. Ever heard of a Muslim suicide bomber? Maybe you have. They get in the news once in a while.
It is possible that you are arguing for the "it's all an illusion" theory. But, that is rather a pat theory that can only be taken on faith. After all, if it really is all an illusion, then your theory that we have no choice could be as illusory as mine that we do have a choice in certain instances. You are left with an unprovable point that must be believed as one accepts religious doctrine. Blindly and without proof.
Further more, you must also ignore the many choices you make each day and you must assume that you are living that illusion yourself. And doing that might just lead you to believe after a while that nothing really matters. After you reach that point, you might find some of your actions result in reactions that tend to make going a tad difficult in your life. And, if you are smart, you might begin to make different "choices" to then make your life better. After that whole circus, where does your feeling that "choices" are not made end up?
Ask a cleaned up addict if he thinks he he has never made any choices.
On the other hand you might just be saying that it would be impossible for you to make choices that result in a hard time for your life. Are you saying that you are so preconditioned that every move you make must result in the "right" move? Because if we are all pre-conditioned to insure life (because we fear death), it would be rather silly to imagine that any preconditioned responses would end in a bad outcome.
... or did you make the "choice" to "ignore" me???
It's your decision.
... or IS it?
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MKFaizi
I highlighted the porkchop reference out of an entire post or two. I think anyone can read he rest of it.
No, I am not projecting or doing whatever other psychological thing.
I do not object to the postings about dogs or co workers.
I think that analogy and metaphor may lead to discussion of purely philosophical intents.
But when I speak in metaphor or analogy, I am merely posting crap. I am wanting to sit before a fire and drink wine.
If analogy and metaphor is not allowed for one, then why is it allowed for another?
Faizi
No, I am not projecting or doing whatever other psychological thing.
I do not object to the postings about dogs or co workers.
I think that analogy and metaphor may lead to discussion of purely philosophical intents.
But when I speak in metaphor or analogy, I am merely posting crap. I am wanting to sit before a fire and drink wine.
If analogy and metaphor is not allowed for one, then why is it allowed for another?
Faizi
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Cory Duchesne
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Oh, I see what you mean now Marsha. Yeah, if that's the case - then that is some unfair treatment you are recieving.
Yestersay I briefly skimmed through some sort of altercation happening between you and Sue on the grief thread. But I didnt read carefully enough to make a judgement.
I gotta go to sleep.
Later
Yestersay I briefly skimmed through some sort of altercation happening between you and Sue on the grief thread. But I didnt read carefully enough to make a judgement.
I gotta go to sleep.
Later
I look at my "programmed" responses. If I am in reaction, I see that as not living. I choose to see the feeling form as it happens, making a creative choice moving into the next moment. If I live from my programmed self, then I am just that. If I take no baggage with me, the programming is absent and freedom is, allowing me to create anew in the ever changing present. Each tick of the clock is a mystery. I choose to remain in discovery mode. Therefore, I don't know nuthin. It might go anywhere... I will observe.
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Cory Duchesne
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Cato wrote:
You can think and say whatever you want to me. If I feel like your level of rationality has the potential to go somewhere worthwhile, then I will respond. If I don’t, well then I will say good-bye, or just simply ignore you. It’s as Simple as that. It all depends on how I feel and perceive – both of which are indivisible and involuntary.
Notice the ‘no choice’ part?
You see Cato, with me there is 1) My mood, my energetic state & 2) My perception of what is possible and worthwhile. These are the two fundamental forces that are always at play with each other in all humans. Energy & rationality.
All humans are involuntarily driven by their energetic state & their quality of perception and rationality.
It is not up to me what my brain is capable of doing and perceiving and it is not up to me what mood I am in.
If I am feeling curious and energetic, I don’t resist my desire that is born from that mood.
Likewise, if I feel disdain, dislike and hatred, I don’t resist that desire either.
Desires may indeed be born from moods, however it is ones rationality and perception that is the fertilizer. Mood is the fertilized.
Often there is a battle between my base cravings and my reason.
My love of reason is often stronger then my base cravings. I didn’t choose to love rationality and reason. It was the inevitable outcome of investigating and experimenting with the science of suffering – which was born out of both an involuntary longing to end my suffering, combined with an involuntary curiosity, energy and desire for clarity.
The most concise way I can put all of this is to simply say: I live in a state of non-resistance. That is all.
For instance: here I am! – writing my thoughts to you.
You probably deem that if your patronization of me is too limiting, then I wont bother replying.
You would be correct. At least at this point, you have proven to me that you had ‘preferred’ to reply.
Your preference is indeed involuntary.
However, you are probably involuntarily reluctant to face this.
You see Cato, the truth is too overwhelming for most of us.
Do you think humanity chooses to be as infantile and feeble as it is?
I say that both those who are highly un-intelligent, and those who are highly intelligent - simply can’t help it.
Some of us have the genetic constitution and environmental factors necessary for an allowance of high awareness to run through our brains.
While some of us just don’t have the strength for that sort of thing.
Our brains have been conditioned over millennia’s to block out impractical facts in order to limit not only our anxiety and despair, but also our direct encounters with the miraculous.
Some of us, out of curiosity and a longing for clarity and certainty, overcome and override this deep-rooted conditioning. Most of us don’t.
Awareness is what acts.
If people act irrationality, their action is simply a reflection of their awareness (which is dictated by the health of the brain).
Likewise this is the case with people who act rationally.
Keep in mind that I understand how human action is rational and irrational to certain degrees.
There is a spectrum of infinite subtlety differentiating the extremely irrational person, from the more rational person, to the highly rational person.
Awareness is involuntary.
They are facts of life that one has no choice but to deal with.
Interpretation of Cato: If we are merely pre-programmed - then crime should never happen.
I think it is fairly obvious why crime happens.
Raw animal passion. Lust, greed, envy, jealously, fear – all of which are the outcome of pre-programming. The animal conditioning has been a process of billions of years and the cultural conditioning has been going on for millennia after millennia.
And the reason I don’t fear death is because I involuntarily realized that the only way I could be free from suffering is by facing the very facts that disturb, frighten and cause suffering & anxiety to begin with.
Facts such as: I have no free will, the self is illusion, my personality will not exist forever, etc, etc were all, at one time, very disturbing to me.
I did not choose to feel suffering, fear, anxiety and shock when I seriously contemplated these issues.
What caused me to seriously contemplate these issues?
One of the key reasons is; I had involuntarily lost that which had comforted me, and I had been suffering immensely for my loss.
This caused me to desire an end to suffering.
This desire was not a choice, but rather was just an involuntary response of the suffering organism named Cory.
They passionately believe that when they fly their plane into the enemies vulnerable point that they are going to continue to live .
In other words, they are afraid to come to grips with both the worthlessness of their shoddy values, as well as their own mortality – and so -they desperately believe in a fantasy in order to give continuity and strength to their fear of death.
Hey Cato,Cato: You have a major chip on your shoulder, bro. You seem to assume I am trying to attack you, belittle you, or say you are stupid. I am merely disagreeing with your premise that we have no choices whatsoever. I can think you are wrong without thinking you are a lowlife that must be eliminated for your stupidity, you know?
You can think and say whatever you want to me. If I feel like your level of rationality has the potential to go somewhere worthwhile, then I will respond. If I don’t, well then I will say good-bye, or just simply ignore you. It’s as Simple as that. It all depends on how I feel and perceive – both of which are indivisible and involuntary.
Um, no. First of all, if you read what I actually wrote, you’ll discover that I said: You are going to have to come up with some good reasons why, otherwise “I will have no choice but to ignore you.â€Cory: You are going to have to come up with some good reasons why, otherwise I will have no choice but to ignore you.
Cato: I see. So, you ARE making a choice after all!
Notice the ‘no choice’ part?
You see Cato, with me there is 1) My mood, my energetic state & 2) My perception of what is possible and worthwhile. These are the two fundamental forces that are always at play with each other in all humans. Energy & rationality.
All humans are involuntarily driven by their energetic state & their quality of perception and rationality.
It is not up to me what my brain is capable of doing and perceiving and it is not up to me what mood I am in.
If I am feeling curious and energetic, I don’t resist my desire that is born from that mood.
Likewise, if I feel disdain, dislike and hatred, I don’t resist that desire either.
Desires may indeed be born from moods, however it is ones rationality and perception that is the fertilizer. Mood is the fertilized.
Often there is a battle between my base cravings and my reason.
My love of reason is often stronger then my base cravings. I didn’t choose to love rationality and reason. It was the inevitable outcome of investigating and experimenting with the science of suffering – which was born out of both an involuntary longing to end my suffering, combined with an involuntary curiosity, energy and desire for clarity.
The most concise way I can put all of this is to simply say: I live in a state of non-resistance. That is all.
Ignore you without giving you a chance? Why don’t you wait and see what my next move is before you make such hasty predictions?Cato: And that choice is to ignore me or discount me before you really have given me a chance at all.
For instance: here I am! – writing my thoughts to you.
Probably because you fear that I won’t reply back. You want to appear as intelligent and as interesting as possible in order to seduce me into a debate.Cato: Now, I ask you... why should I respond to you as if you are anything other than a petulant child? Should I pat you on your little head, smile and say some soothing words about how smart a little fella you are?
You probably deem that if your patronization of me is too limiting, then I wont bother replying.
You would be correct. At least at this point, you have proven to me that you had ‘preferred’ to reply.
Your preference is indeed involuntary.
However, you are probably involuntarily reluctant to face this.
You see Cato, the truth is too overwhelming for most of us.
Do you think humanity chooses to be as infantile and feeble as it is?
I say that both those who are highly un-intelligent, and those who are highly intelligent - simply can’t help it.
Some of us have the genetic constitution and environmental factors necessary for an allowance of high awareness to run through our brains.
While some of us just don’t have the strength for that sort of thing.
Our brains have been conditioned over millennia’s to block out impractical facts in order to limit not only our anxiety and despair, but also our direct encounters with the miraculous.
Some of us, out of curiosity and a longing for clarity and certainty, overcome and override this deep-rooted conditioning. Most of us don’t.
Well, you have indeed written back to me, and I say you never chose to do it. The reality of choice was indeed an illusion.Cato: Perhaps it would be a waste of time to even bother with you?
Yes?
No?
Hmmm. What "choice" do I make?
And did you choose to like them?Cory: did you choose to dislike your vegetables?
Cato: Which ones? I like many veggies and always have.
Did you choose to hate the ones you hated?
Cory: did you choose to like candy?
Cato: Which candy? I have hated some and always have.
And did you choose this change?Cato: Further, I find that some no longer taste as good as they did.
And is the very ‘fact’ that some candy is bad for your body – a choice?Cato: Also, some have proven to be bad for me.
No. The involuntary awareness of 1) Your dislike for the particular candies & 2) the fact that the candy will tarnish the quality of your life IS what acts.Cato: And So I chose no longer to eat those.
Awareness is what acts.
If people act irrationality, their action is simply a reflection of their awareness (which is dictated by the health of the brain).
Likewise this is the case with people who act rationally.
Keep in mind that I understand how human action is rational and irrational to certain degrees.
There is a spectrum of infinite subtlety differentiating the extremely irrational person, from the more rational person, to the highly rational person.
Awareness is involuntary.
Yes I agree. Keep in mind that both coming into awareness of these societal conditions AND feeling guilt (as a consequence to violation) are not choices.Cory: [when you were a child] did you choose to be frightened, confused and guilty about what you did?
Cato: Some things that people do are violations of societal condition’s (causing that guilt, for instance) in some societies, yet not a problem at all in others.
They are facts of life that one has no choice but to deal with.
This is because the human brain longs to be free from limitation. There is an involuntary longing within each person to go beyond the present limitations that one has no choice but to be constrained by and to deal with.Cato: But, are you arguing for the "natural" law by saying that we automatically feel guilt by certain actions? If you are, then how do so many people violate those natural laws so easily and constantly?
I’m sorry Cato, but I’m not sure if I understand what you are saying here. I’m going to rewrite your sentence based on my interpretation of what I think you were trying to say.Cato: If we are merely pre-programmed, such things should NEVER be violated and societal conditioning could never take if they might run contrary to such laws.
Interpretation of Cato: If we are merely pre-programmed - then crime should never happen.
I think it is fairly obvious why crime happens.
Raw animal passion. Lust, greed, envy, jealously, fear – all of which are the outcome of pre-programming. The animal conditioning has been a process of billions of years and the cultural conditioning has been going on for millennia after millennia.
And did you choose to feel upset about the way your father treated you? And did you choose to feel ok about the way he treated your mother?Cory: Did you choose to cry? Did you choose to want to impress your mother? Did you choose to feel resentment towards the way your father treated your mother? Did you choose to feel love towards the pretty girl? to feel alienated, clumsy and awkward at a particular time in your life? Did you choose feel frightened? Did you choose to feel a frightened pressure to get a wife and get married? To feel lust? Did you choose to be ascribed with moral codes that told you what was morally appropriate to do and what was not?
Cato: I never ever "resented" how my Father treated my Mother. I may have been a bit upset from time to time over how he treated me, but I never had a single question in my whole life about how my Father treated my Mother.
I disagree, for reasons that I’ve written further down the page.Cory: Do you choose to fear death?
Cato: I can. Or I can choose not to
Yes, I would fall under that category.Cato: religious people claim not to fear death, for instance.
And the reason I don’t fear death is because I involuntarily realized that the only way I could be free from suffering is by facing the very facts that disturb, frighten and cause suffering & anxiety to begin with.
Facts such as: I have no free will, the self is illusion, my personality will not exist forever, etc, etc were all, at one time, very disturbing to me.
I did not choose to feel suffering, fear, anxiety and shock when I seriously contemplated these issues.
What caused me to seriously contemplate these issues?
One of the key reasons is; I had involuntarily lost that which had comforted me, and I had been suffering immensely for my loss.
This caused me to desire an end to suffering.
This desire was not a choice, but rather was just an involuntary response of the suffering organism named Cory.
These people actually epitomize ‘fear of death’.Cato: Many have proven their case by dying for their religion. Ever heard of a Muslim suicide bomber?
They passionately believe that when they fly their plane into the enemies vulnerable point that they are going to continue to live .
In other words, they are afraid to come to grips with both the worthlessness of their shoddy values, as well as their own mortality – and so -they desperately believe in a fantasy in order to give continuity and strength to their fear of death.