Cory,
I'll admit, that having already acheived enlightenment, it is somewhat tedious to labor over my weaknesses on this forum. By remaining within emptiness, I have very few points of contact that cause suffering. Within emptiness, the Infinite is the great teacher.
But, here are a few:
Unrealistic expectations of others, due to idealism
Lack of self-confidence due to self-indulgence
An inability to handle criticism
An inability to hate
--
I would like to discuss these with you.
Maybe we can find some common ground.
Modern Man
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Cory Duchesne
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Steven,
I’ll share with you my thoughts on each of your concerns – which are my concerns as well.
As long as there is hope and ideals, there cannot be understanding.
For the immature person, hopes, ideals are what control.
But as a person comes close to maturity, he actually becomes aware of how his ideals, hopes and expectations are affecting his feelings and thus his behavior. This is self knowlege - and self knowlege is not the outcome of hope or ideals. Self knowlege is in spite of hope and idealism.
I feel the only way we can live in a state of non-resistance, a state of freedom - - is by having a genuine interest in the possibility of living without control, without resistance.
The immature man is pre-occupied with not only controlling reality with a mere idea, a mere ideal - - - but also with being controlled by an ideal, an idea.
The idealist is an imitator.
The idealist is afraid to be who he is, so he imitates and identifies with images of things and people he holds in high regard.
Ideals, hopes, beliefs, can only hinder perception. For instance, the man who is studying and trying to understand the micro-word, or the galaxy through a telescope needs only to see the world as it is, which is against his volition. It is in spite of his ideals, and hopes.
Likewise, in order to clearly perceive ourselves, we need to do away with all the factors that cloud perception - namely: ideals, ideas, hopes.
If we suppress and resist our emotions, we will never get them out of us. We must not resist whatever it is we desire. When we get what we want, that very attainment creates a limitation, and that limitation creates a new desire. the desire might lead to a higher state, it might lead to a lower state. It all depends on the quality of ones environment and individual constitution.
if our environment is good, we should be becoming less and less craving for stimulation and attention from others. If we have had a poor environment, we will continue to try and control, seduce, and crave stimulation from others.
That is why it is necessary for more mature people to let the more immature people be immature. That is why, in order to be mature, there must be a stage of immaturity.
The immature will become interested in changing for the better when they are ready. When they are ready is not up to them.
It becomes apparent to those who are lucky enough to have the awareness, that life simply demands they change, or else they will stagnant and live in misery.
Most people never come very close to being mature.
Personally - I am what makes sense to my brain, and I am not what doesn’t make sense to my brain. If somebody isnt making sense to my brain - I abandon him or I try to dominate him in order to make him closer to what I am.
Depending on the circumstances, my judgment of the situation and my mood, I am forced to do one of four things in regards to the person I find myself in relationship to:
1) I will ignore him, abandon him, because I deem he is incorrigible at the present time.
2) I will dominate him in an attempt to make him closer to being me
3) I will submit to him in order to make me closer to being him
4) I will simply want to see him destroyed, because I deem he is absolutely incorrigible.
The fundamental thing operating is a desire for union, for wholeness, for division to end.
Anyway, I gotta get some sleep.
I think you'll find if we continue our conversation from here, all of your other concerns will be addressed. That's because they are all a part of each other. To understand and explore one, you will inevitably find yourself exploring and understanding the other.
I’ll share with you my thoughts on each of your concerns – which are my concerns as well.
Is it necessary to have any ideals, hopes at all? What is the difference between the longing for understanding - and hope and ideals?Unrealistic expectations of others, due to idealism
As long as there is hope and ideals, there cannot be understanding.
For the immature person, hopes, ideals are what control.
But as a person comes close to maturity, he actually becomes aware of how his ideals, hopes and expectations are affecting his feelings and thus his behavior. This is self knowlege - and self knowlege is not the outcome of hope or ideals. Self knowlege is in spite of hope and idealism.
I feel the only way we can live in a state of non-resistance, a state of freedom - - is by having a genuine interest in the possibility of living without control, without resistance.
The immature man is pre-occupied with not only controlling reality with a mere idea, a mere ideal - - - but also with being controlled by an ideal, an idea.
The idealist is an imitator.
The idealist is afraid to be who he is, so he imitates and identifies with images of things and people he holds in high regard.
Ideals, hopes, beliefs, can only hinder perception. For instance, the man who is studying and trying to understand the micro-word, or the galaxy through a telescope needs only to see the world as it is, which is against his volition. It is in spite of his ideals, and hopes.
Likewise, in order to clearly perceive ourselves, we need to do away with all the factors that cloud perception - namely: ideals, ideas, hopes.
If we suppress and resist our emotions, we will never get them out of us. We must not resist whatever it is we desire. When we get what we want, that very attainment creates a limitation, and that limitation creates a new desire. the desire might lead to a higher state, it might lead to a lower state. It all depends on the quality of ones environment and individual constitution.
if our environment is good, we should be becoming less and less craving for stimulation and attention from others. If we have had a poor environment, we will continue to try and control, seduce, and crave stimulation from others.
That is why it is necessary for more mature people to let the more immature people be immature. That is why, in order to be mature, there must be a stage of immaturity.
The immature will become interested in changing for the better when they are ready. When they are ready is not up to them.
It becomes apparent to those who are lucky enough to have the awareness, that life simply demands they change, or else they will stagnant and live in misery.
Most people never come very close to being mature.
Personally - I am what makes sense to my brain, and I am not what doesn’t make sense to my brain. If somebody isnt making sense to my brain - I abandon him or I try to dominate him in order to make him closer to what I am.
Depending on the circumstances, my judgment of the situation and my mood, I am forced to do one of four things in regards to the person I find myself in relationship to:
1) I will ignore him, abandon him, because I deem he is incorrigible at the present time.
2) I will dominate him in an attempt to make him closer to being me
3) I will submit to him in order to make me closer to being him
4) I will simply want to see him destroyed, because I deem he is absolutely incorrigible.
The fundamental thing operating is a desire for union, for wholeness, for division to end.
Anyway, I gotta get some sleep.
I think you'll find if we continue our conversation from here, all of your other concerns will be addressed. That's because they are all a part of each other. To understand and explore one, you will inevitably find yourself exploring and understanding the other.
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R. Steven Coyle
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:33 pm
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Cory,
You have ideals, Cory. But you don't like to acknowledge them because of your hatred of your own irrationality, which idealism can propagate.
Truth is the ideal.
...Ideas and ideals pass themselves through time.
An anti-Cory ideal?
An abundance of unreasoned beliefs limits perception. But reason dictates that every act of the will is due to a personal belief, or an ideal that one is striving to actualize into existence.
It is relative.
It's beneficial to acknowledge its illusory nature [for a clearer perception of causality], but there is also the psychological benefit [of believing in choice], as to not succumb to loss in libidinal energy - the impetus for thought.
I think that by having ideals, we inevitably set ourselves up for future understanding. The two mutually support one another. When we forget their relationship, we allow idealism to support emotionalism exclusively.Is it necessary to have any ideals, hopes at all? What is the difference between the longing for understanding - and hope and ideals?
As long as there is hope and ideals, there cannot be understanding.
You have ideals, Cory. But you don't like to acknowledge them because of your hatred of your own irrationality, which idealism can propagate.
Truth is the ideal.
Wouldn't you observe that the outcome of your idealism was also self-knowledge?Self knowlege is not the outcome of hope or ideals. Self knowlege is in spite of hope and idealism.
Heightened awareness is the catalyst for freedom, but the path of least resistance is still perilous, because we do not govern the future, and what complications may arise.I feel the only way we can live in a state of non-resistance, a state of freedom -- is by having a genuine interest in the possibility of living without control, without resistance.
What was the moral of the dog anedote?The immature man is pre-occupied with not only controlling reality with a mere idea, a mere ideal -- but also with being controlled by an ideal, an idea.
...Ideas and ideals pass themselves through time.
What is his ideal?Ideals, hopes, beliefs, can only hinder perception. For instance, the man who is studying and trying to understand the micro-word, or the galaxy through a telescope needs only to see the world as it is, which is against his volition. It is in spite of his ideals, and hopes.
An anti-Cory ideal?
An abundance of unreasoned beliefs limits perception. But reason dictates that every act of the will is due to a personal belief, or an ideal that one is striving to actualize into existence.
Yes. But, in order to perceive ourselves we also need to utilize them.Likewise, in order to clearly perceive ourselves, we need to do away with all the factors that cloud perception - namely: ideals, ideas, hopes.
It is relative.
Our desire is indicative of our mind, and should be recognized as our mind desiring wholeness.We must not resist whatever it is we desire. When we get what we want, that very attainment creates a limitation, and that limitation creates a new desire. The desire might lead to a higher state, it might lead to a lower state. It all depends on the quality of ones environment and individual constitution.
You constantly bring up a lack of control, the illusion of free-will. Why is this a consistent theme with you?The immature will become interested in changing for the better when they are ready. When they are ready is not up to them.
It's beneficial to acknowledge its illusory nature [for a clearer perception of causality], but there is also the psychological benefit [of believing in choice], as to not succumb to loss in libidinal energy - the impetus for thought.
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Cory Duchesne
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- Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
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Steven,
Steven, I am assuming that, when you say understanding, you mean absolute understanding, enlightenment.
To me, the enlightened mind has no hopes or ideals. The enlightened mind already ‘is’.
Whereas, ideals and hope both imply a preferable future over an imperfect present moment.
For the enlightened mind, there is perfection in the understanding of the imperfection of each moment.
For the enlightened mind, the past, present and future are an undivided whole.
He lives without hope or ideal.
Both the ideal situation and ideal mind state are whatever one he happens to already be in.
Seeking has come to an end.
For instance, I may idealize getting married. But do I really understand what it is that I am idealizing?
I may have a fanciful image of what marriage is……….but what is marriage really?
The person who idealizes and pursues marriage, isn’t really idealizing the true-reality of marriage, but is instead foolishly idealizing a far-fetched fantasy that doesn’t really exist.
Do I really need to go through with marriage in order to understand what a scam it is?
And likewise, do I really need to go through pursuing the ideal of enlightenment in order to understand that the idea of understanding is an illusion?
Steven, your ideal of enlightenment is just an exuse you use to justify and give continuity to whatever stupidies you have come to depend on for your well being.
You can only idealize the false.
The truth can be understood right now.
The man who fancies the idea of getting married, is not much different from the man who fancies the ‘mere idea’ of getting enlightened.
Both fools are childishly fancying some future moment where everything will be ok.
But then you actually get what you thought was the ideal - -and you realize - this isn’t it.
I am still confused and even more troubled than I was.
So in other words, you don’t have to go after some ideal in order to understand the whole thing is a vain, silly affair.
For instance, lets just say I have very narcissistic, superfluous and platitudinous tendencies.
These tendency of mine are alienating me, isolating me – people aren’t respecting me, I am depressed, etc, etc, etc.
What good is a mere ideal of enlightenment going to do for me?
How the hell do I know what enlighenment is?
I dont know what it is. Instead I hope I know what it is. I do this because I dont want to really change. I am content being an imbecile, yet I am suffering for it.
Surely enlightenment is NOT the ideal? If understanding is not the ideal that I have of it, was is it?
Understanding what I am in the present moment, right now is what I need to do.
This is not an ideal, because there is no future, there is no imagined goal or ideal. If I dont realize this, then what I am now is what I will be 3 years down the road - 10 years, 30 years, 60 years........
There needs to be factual observation of what I am. This doesnt not demand one to be idealistic.
It is not necessary to idealize some future moment.
I can begin understanding instantly. There is truth in the moment, not in the near or some far off future. Idealism implies future goal. There is no future goal for me.
If I idealize enlightenment – when am I idealizing?
Just a mere Idea! What is happening in my life right now?
What is going on inside me right now? That is all there is.
No ideal. The ideal is ‘what is’ – and ‘what is’ is futureless.
Yes. That is why a man of understanding has no will, no belief, no ideal. He simply responds to the needs of the present moment. The needs of the present moment are not a choice, an opinion, a belief, an ideal. Humanity does every single little thing it possibly can besides attending to the needs of the present moment. It doesn’t know what the needs of the present moment are, because it is too lost in ideals.
Why not understand right now? Why put it off?Steve: I think that by having ideals, we inevitably set ourselves up for future understanding.
Steven, I am assuming that, when you say understanding, you mean absolute understanding, enlightenment.
To me, the enlightened mind has no hopes or ideals. The enlightened mind already ‘is’.
Whereas, ideals and hope both imply a preferable future over an imperfect present moment.
For the enlightened mind, there is perfection in the understanding of the imperfection of each moment.
For the enlightened mind, the past, present and future are an undivided whole.
He lives without hope or ideal.
Both the ideal situation and ideal mind state are whatever one he happens to already be in.
Seeking has come to an end.
How can you make understanding your ideal, when you don’t even know what understanding is?Steve: The two [understanding and the ideal) mutually support one another. When we forget their relationship, we allow idealism to support emotionalism exclusively.
For instance, I may idealize getting married. But do I really understand what it is that I am idealizing?
I may have a fanciful image of what marriage is……….but what is marriage really?
The person who idealizes and pursues marriage, isn’t really idealizing the true-reality of marriage, but is instead foolishly idealizing a far-fetched fantasy that doesn’t really exist.
Do I really need to go through with marriage in order to understand what a scam it is?
And likewise, do I really need to go through pursuing the ideal of enlightenment in order to understand that the idea of understanding is an illusion?
Steven, your ideal of enlightenment is just an exuse you use to justify and give continuity to whatever stupidies you have come to depend on for your well being.
You can only idealize the false.
The truth can be understood right now.
The man who fancies the idea of getting married, is not much different from the man who fancies the ‘mere idea’ of getting enlightened.
Both fools are childishly fancying some future moment where everything will be ok.
But then you actually get what you thought was the ideal - -and you realize - this isn’t it.
I am still confused and even more troubled than I was.
So in other words, you don’t have to go after some ideal in order to understand the whole thing is a vain, silly affair.
Idealism can propagate irrationality? Yes, I agree. That’s why I don’t have ideals.Steve: You have ideals, Cory. But you don't like to acknowledge them because of your hatred of your own irrationality, which idealism can propagate.
Yes, and I can face the truth right now.Steve: Truth is the ideal.
For instance, lets just say I have very narcissistic, superfluous and platitudinous tendencies.
These tendency of mine are alienating me, isolating me – people aren’t respecting me, I am depressed, etc, etc, etc.
What good is a mere ideal of enlightenment going to do for me?
How the hell do I know what enlighenment is?
I dont know what it is. Instead I hope I know what it is. I do this because I dont want to really change. I am content being an imbecile, yet I am suffering for it.
Surely enlightenment is NOT the ideal? If understanding is not the ideal that I have of it, was is it?
Understanding what I am in the present moment, right now is what I need to do.
This is not an ideal, because there is no future, there is no imagined goal or ideal. If I dont realize this, then what I am now is what I will be 3 years down the road - 10 years, 30 years, 60 years........
There needs to be factual observation of what I am. This doesnt not demand one to be idealistic.
It is not necessary to idealize some future moment.
I can begin understanding instantly. There is truth in the moment, not in the near or some far off future. Idealism implies future goal. There is no future goal for me.
If I idealize enlightenment – when am I idealizing?
Just a mere Idea! What is happening in my life right now?
What is going on inside me right now? That is all there is.
No ideal. The ideal is ‘what is’ – and ‘what is’ is futureless.
My self knowledge is in spite of my idealism. Right now, in the present moment, because I have a genuine longing, I begin to understand how the self escapes into ideals to hide from the necessity of ceasing whatever stupid neurosis and addictions I harbor.Cory: Self knowlege is not the outcome of hope or ideals. Self knowlege is in spite of hope and idealism.
Steve: Wouldn't you observe that the outcome of your idealism was also self-knowledge?
The future is simply understood as inseparable from the present moment. An individual of profound understanding does not abandon the necessity of organizing and being aware of upcoming events and days.Cory: I feel the only way we can live in a state of non-resistance, a state of freedom -- is by having a genuine interest in the possibility of living without control, without resistance.
Steven: Heightened awareness is the catalyst for freedom, but the path of least resistance is still perilous, because we do not govern the future, and what complications may arise.
There was no moral. It was analogy to reflect ‘what is’. (I assume you are talking about my comments from the ‘avoidance of truth’ thread)Cory: The immature man is pre-occupied with not only controlling reality with a mere idea, a mere ideal -- but also with being controlled by an ideal, an idea.
Steven: What was the moral of the dog anedote?
Yes, much like viruses and parasites. I’ll admit ‘ideas’ can be helpful. But an ideal of enlightenment? No.Steve:...Ideas and ideals pass themselves through time.
Well, sort of. The self is certainly an illusion if that’s what you mean.Cory: Ideals, hopes, beliefs, can only hinder perception. For instance, the man who is studying and trying to understand the micro-word, or the galaxy through a telescope needs only to see the world as it is, which is against his volition. It is in spite of his ideals, and hopes.
Steven: What is his ideal?
An anti-Cory ideal?
Beliefs limit perception period. What I emphasize are not beliefs, but facts.
Steven: An abundance of unreasoned beliefs limits perception.
Steven: But reason dictates that every act of the will is due to a personal belief, or an ideal that one is striving to actualize into existence.
Yes. That is why a man of understanding has no will, no belief, no ideal. He simply responds to the needs of the present moment. The needs of the present moment are not a choice, an opinion, a belief, an ideal. Humanity does every single little thing it possibly can besides attending to the needs of the present moment. It doesn’t know what the needs of the present moment are, because it is too lost in ideals.
Yes a shoddy means, to a shoddy end.Cory: Likewise, in order to clearly perceive ourselves, we need to do away with all the factors that cloud perception - namely: ideals, ideas, hopes.
Steve: Yes. But, in order to perceive ourselves we also need to utilize them.
Yes, and that situation is not a choice, nor is it something we need to control.Cory: We must not resist whatever it is we desire. When we get what we want, that very attainment creates a limitation, and that limitation creates a new desire. The desire might lead to a higher state, it might lead to a lower state. It all depends on the quality of ones environment and individual constitution.
Steve: Our desire is indicative of our mind, and should be recognized as our mind desiring wholeness.
Because it’s a fact. It is quite significant in regards to how many people don’t have the balls to acknowledge it.Steve: The immature will become interested in changing for the better when they are ready. When they are ready is not up to them.
You constantly bring up a lack of control, the illusion of free-will. Why is this a consistent theme with you?
Did you come up with this theory on your own? The theory that says: by believing in choice we preserve our libidinal energy? And by seeing reality truthfully we lose our libidinal energy? Where did you get that from?Steven: It's beneficial to acknowledge its illusory nature [for a clearer perception of causality], but there is also the psychological benefit [of believing in choice], as to not succumb to loss in libidinal energy - the impetus for thought.
I would say one could arrive at that from what is said here…Steven: It's beneficial to acknowledge its illusory nature [for a clearer perception of causality], but there is also the psychological benefit [of believing in choice], as to not succumb to loss in libidinal energy - the impetus for thought.
Cory: Did you come up with this theory on your own? The theory that says: by believing in choice we preserve our libidinal energy? And by seeing reality truthfully we lose our libidinal energy? Where did you get that from?
.Cory: For the enlightened mind, there is perfection in the understanding of the imperfection of each moment.
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R. Steven Coyle
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- Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:33 pm
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Cory,
Beyond logic.
You don't have unconsciousness.
What instigated this understanding?Steve: I think that by having ideals, we inevitably set ourselves up for future understanding.
Cory: Why not understand right now? Why put it off?
He might have a goal in mind though: Which his own mind (Reality) would follow.He lives without hope or ideal.
There is still the quest for perfection.Seeking has come to an end.
You assume too much.Steve: The two [understanding and the ideal) mutually support one another. When we forget their relationship, we allow idealism to support emotionalism exclusively.
How can you make understanding your ideal, when you don’t even know what understanding is?
The process of understanding is an "illusion." The idea is not.And likewise, do I really need to go through pursuing the ideal of enlightenment in order to understand that the idea of understanding is an illusion?
The enlightened mind can still have imperfections.Steven, your ideal of enlightenment is just an excuse you use to justify and give continuity to whatever stupidies you have come to depend on for your well being.
For truth, ultimately.You can only idealize the false.
What determines your reaction to it?The truth can be understood right now.
Beyond logic.
No, one is sowing seeds for his death, one for a harvest.Both fools [idealizing marriage/ideal of enlightenment] are childishly fancying some future moment where everything will be ok.
You have goals, don't you?Steve: You have ideals, Cory. But you don't like to acknowledge them because of your hatred of your own irrationality, which idealism can propagate.
Cory: Idealism can propagate irrationality? Yes, I agree. That’s why I don’t have ideals.
You don't have unconsciousness.
Reading, experience, and insight.How the hell do I know what enlighenment is?
Without an ideal in mind, the present has no context.This is not an ideal, because there is no future, there is no imagined goal or ideal. If I dont realize this, then what I am now is what I will be 3 years down the road - 10 years, 30 years, 60 years...
I agree.There needs to be factual observation of what I am. This doesnt not demand one to be idealistic.
I see wisdom in that.I can begin understanding instantly. There is truth in the moment, not in the near or some far off future. Idealism implies future goal. There is no future goal for me.
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Cory Duchesne
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Steven,
Idealism is for lost souls who are stuck in between the innocence of childhood and the innocence of enlightenment.
Insight is what matters, and it can only happen in the now. In the same way that rain and sun are not ideals, insight is not an ideal. The action of insight reveals a great deal. If one goes deep enough, insight reveals how ones ideals waste energy and generate conflict.
So, insight shows ones ideals/goals to be an unnecessary burden.
I’ll try to make it more clear why this is so via the following responses.
Man is truthful and intelligent simply because he can’t help it, likwise, he is dishonest and stupid simply because he can't help it.
The ignorant man with an ideal has his mind only on an imaginary, selfish and cowardly result – oblivious to the reason why he wants what he wants to begin with.
It is only in the now that we can, out of sheer weariness and willingness – submit to the needs of our situation and learn the unpleasant truths about ourselves. All of our ideals are used to escape from the painful facts.
To understand ‘what is’ is not an act of will, but rather, is the awareness of its incredible limitation and even non-existence.
That is why so few people genuinely become wise. Ideals are exciting to maintain, it is stimulating, gratifying and exciting to pursue, to feel like you are making progress.
When you realize that your pursuits are in vain – this is quite depressing.
It is doubly depressing because one has spent a length of time being excited and gratified by ideals, ideas, and concepts.
Life, for most people, is a transgression, a deviation away from a natural allotment of enjoyment by means of both the more vulgar as well as more sophisticated products of culture.
That is why very academic people with very high IQ’s are so weak when confronted with the truth.
They have spent too much time indulging in the shallow gratification of hyper-complex convoluted ways of communication, equations, and concepts.
Simple truths become an incredible threat to a man who prides himself in his ability to be complicated and unique.
What naturally gives a sage enjoyment and peace – provokes misery and terror in the heart of the unnatural man(the fool).
And of course, what gives excitement and gratification (because those are all the fool knows) to the unnatural man, generates brief impulses of anger and hatred in the heart of the sage.
So, allowing one self to have ideals and goals is foolish and immature, however, having desires and thoughts is simply something one cannot help.
There are high quality/mature thoughts/desires and there is low quality/immature thoughts/desires.
Making ‘no-desire’ and ‘thoughtlessness’ the ideal is a common desire of the foolish mind.
He makes this his ideal in order to avoid the painful moment of seeing his own stupidity and immaturity clearly.
Rather than see himself for the fool he is in ruthless detail, he seeks the ideal of enlightenment, desire-less-ness, thought-less-ness.
Man idealizes desire-less-ness only because he thinks he is going to get happiness for achieving such a noble state.
There is no motivation without an ideal.
So I am doing away with both motivation as well as ideal.
However, having desire is an involuntary fact that you have no choice to deal with.
For most of us, desire is a problem – a source of great misery.
Wise, enlightened men are those who once, before they were wise – felt that the ‘quality’ of their desires were a problem.
Fools on the other hand are those who, instead of seeing the quality of their thoughts and desires as the source of their misery, live in fear of coming into contact with the stark realization of their own vanity.
You see, people suffer, yes indeed they do – however, in order for them to go beyond their petty and squalid pleasures and therefore their squalid and petty sorrows - they must suffer greatly before the realization of what they, their idol, and their world really are.
Instead of undergoing that suffering, the fool continues to gratify himself via his own fanciful image, which is fabricated with the help of various idols – and this causes him to misinterpret.
Desire, the mind, the body – must be studied and understood. Ideals can only interfere with the necessity of seeing the body/mind/world for what is its.
When you hold enlightenment as some conceptualized object, an ideal that is separate from what you (the subject) are –
then there is indeed searching, questing, striving, idealism, conflict, etc, etc.
When you realize that the subject (you) and the object (enlightenment) are already one – then it is over. You are finished. No ideal.
Truth can only be when awareness of the non-existence of the
self/world emerges.
Such an awareness can only come into being via death of all values and ideals, via death of the self.
Why isn’t anyone really interested in death before they physically die? Because they are too busy enjoying themselves – intellectually and more basely.
But there is always the awareness that there is no self, no choice, no volition.
There is only my mood, my perception, my biological needs, my loathing, my anxiety, my revulsion, my passion, my clarity, truth. There is no ideals, no goals, no choices.
If I have a strong, involuntary curiosity about a subject, I do a search on the internet and see what sort of information is presented.
It is not a choice as to what information is presented. My hunger to absorb a subject is not an ideal or a choice - it is a burning fact. The truth is not a choice, an ideal. People who have ideals distort the truth in order to protect the comfort of their ideals.
In the same way that school children are not being idealistic when they are being lead to learn about mathematics, language, and geography - - followers of the infinite are not being idealistic when they are lead to learn about what is ultimately true.
Steve: I think that by having ideals, we inevitably set ourselves up for future understanding.
Cory: Why not understand right now? Why put it off?
Steven: Couldn't "the now" show us our own ideals?
Idealism is for lost souls who are stuck in between the innocence of childhood and the innocence of enlightenment.
Insight is what matters, and it can only happen in the now. In the same way that rain and sun are not ideals, insight is not an ideal. The action of insight reveals a great deal. If one goes deep enough, insight reveals how ones ideals waste energy and generate conflict.
So, insight shows ones ideals/goals to be an unnecessary burden.
I’ll try to make it more clear why this is so via the following responses.
No, he has no specific goal in mind. If he is truly mature, all he will do is respond to his environment truthfully.Cory: The wise live without hope or ideal.
Steven: He might have a goal in mind though: which his own mind (Reality) would follow.
Man is truthful and intelligent simply because he can’t help it, likwise, he is dishonest and stupid simply because he can't help it.
The ignorant man with an ideal has his mind only on an imaginary, selfish and cowardly result – oblivious to the reason why he wants what he wants to begin with.
It is only in the now that we can, out of sheer weariness and willingness – submit to the needs of our situation and learn the unpleasant truths about ourselves. All of our ideals are used to escape from the painful facts.
To understand ‘what is’ is not an act of will, but rather, is the awareness of its incredible limitation and even non-existence.
That is why so few people genuinely become wise. Ideals are exciting to maintain, it is stimulating, gratifying and exciting to pursue, to feel like you are making progress.
When you realize that your pursuits are in vain – this is quite depressing.
It is doubly depressing because one has spent a length of time being excited and gratified by ideals, ideas, and concepts.
Life, for most people, is a transgression, a deviation away from a natural allotment of enjoyment by means of both the more vulgar as well as more sophisticated products of culture.
That is why very academic people with very high IQ’s are so weak when confronted with the truth.
They have spent too much time indulging in the shallow gratification of hyper-complex convoluted ways of communication, equations, and concepts.
Simple truths become an incredible threat to a man who prides himself in his ability to be complicated and unique.
What naturally gives a sage enjoyment and peace – provokes misery and terror in the heart of the unnatural man(the fool).
And of course, what gives excitement and gratification (because those are all the fool knows) to the unnatural man, generates brief impulses of anger and hatred in the heart of the sage.
So, allowing one self to have ideals and goals is foolish and immature, however, having desires and thoughts is simply something one cannot help.
There are high quality/mature thoughts/desires and there is low quality/immature thoughts/desires.
Making ‘no-desire’ and ‘thoughtlessness’ the ideal is a common desire of the foolish mind.
He makes this his ideal in order to avoid the painful moment of seeing his own stupidity and immaturity clearly.
Rather than see himself for the fool he is in ruthless detail, he seeks the ideal of enlightenment, desire-less-ness, thought-less-ness.
Man idealizes desire-less-ness only because he thinks he is going to get happiness for achieving such a noble state.
There is no motivation without an ideal.
So I am doing away with both motivation as well as ideal.
However, having desire is an involuntary fact that you have no choice to deal with.
For most of us, desire is a problem – a source of great misery.
Wise, enlightened men are those who once, before they were wise – felt that the ‘quality’ of their desires were a problem.
Fools on the other hand are those who, instead of seeing the quality of their thoughts and desires as the source of their misery, live in fear of coming into contact with the stark realization of their own vanity.
You see, people suffer, yes indeed they do – however, in order for them to go beyond their petty and squalid pleasures and therefore their squalid and petty sorrows - they must suffer greatly before the realization of what they, their idol, and their world really are.
Instead of undergoing that suffering, the fool continues to gratify himself via his own fanciful image, which is fabricated with the help of various idols – and this causes him to misinterpret.
Desire, the mind, the body – must be studied and understood. Ideals can only interfere with the necessity of seeing the body/mind/world for what is its.
Even after you have attained it? Surely you agree that the quest must end. If not, well, that opens up another bag of worms that I am very much open to discuss. But if you agree that the quest must end, well, then there is only one major question for us to get to the bottom of. Is the quest, seeking for enlightenment even necessary? – Or is it a blind act of will that is metaphorical to a blind man reaching into a black room for a black cat that isn’t there?Cory: Seeking has come to an end.
Steven: There is always the quest for perfection.
When you hold enlightenment as some conceptualized object, an ideal that is separate from what you (the subject) are –
then there is indeed searching, questing, striving, idealism, conflict, etc, etc.
When you realize that the subject (you) and the object (enlightenment) are already one – then it is over. You are finished. No ideal.
No, you can only idealize as a means to reach a false state.Cory: You can only idealize the false.
Steven: For truth, ultimately.
Truth can only be when awareness of the non-existence of the
self/world emerges.
Such an awareness can only come into being via death of all values and ideals, via death of the self.
Why isn’t anyone really interested in death before they physically die? Because they are too busy enjoying themselves – intellectually and more basely.
There is no reaction, because a reaction implies a subject and object. Truth is something you are. No reaction.Cory: The truth can be understood right now.
Steven: What determines your reaction to it? Beyond logic.
I wouldn’t consider them goals. I find myself having no choice but to eat, to take out the compost, to brush my teeth, to be attentive to my thoughts as I drive to work, to make it to work on time. These aren’t personal choices – these are the demands of an environment. It would be senseless and idealistic of me to resist and divide myself from these environmental demands. I do indeed find myself wondering, inquiring, thinking about that which I find confusing, inefficient or irrational.Steve: You have ideals, Cory. But you don't like to acknowledge them because of your hatred of your own irrationality, which idealism can propagate.
Cory: Idealism can propagate irrationality? Yes, I agree. That’s why I don’t have ideals.
Steven: You have goals, don't you?
But there is always the awareness that there is no self, no choice, no volition.
There is only my mood, my perception, my biological needs, my loathing, my anxiety, my revulsion, my passion, my clarity, truth. There is no ideals, no goals, no choices.
Yes, but those are all involuntary demands. They are not ideals, or goals. I don’t make it my goal to read a book, or to have a particular experience. That is too silly, too immature.Cory: How the hell do I know what enlighenment is?
Steven: Reading, experience, insight.
If I have a strong, involuntary curiosity about a subject, I do a search on the internet and see what sort of information is presented.
It is not a choice as to what information is presented. My hunger to absorb a subject is not an ideal or a choice - it is a burning fact. The truth is not a choice, an ideal. People who have ideals distort the truth in order to protect the comfort of their ideals.
Sure it does. It doesn’t require me to be idealistic in order to understand the relationship between my work and my paycheck. Between the sun, the clouds, the rain, the vegetation. Nor does it require me to be idealistic in order to understand the relationship between the strings on a guitar, between the chords and notes. I could go on endlessly. I’m sure you get the point.Cory: This is not an ideal, because there is no future, there is no imagined goal or ideal. If I dont realize this, then what I am now is what I will be 3 years down the road - 10 years, 30 years, 60 years...
Steven: Without an ideal in mind, the present has no context.
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suergaz
Cory,
A man of understanding has those things you say he hasn't. Humanity cannot help but attend to the needs of the moment. Humanity is a means to far-sighted, wilful, individuals.Steven: But reason dictates that every act of the will is due to a personal belief, or an ideal that one is striving to actualize into existence.
Cory: Yes. That is why a man of understanding has no will, no belief, no ideal. He simply responds to the needs of the present moment. The needs of the present moment are not a choice, an opinion, a belief, an ideal. Humanity does every single little thing it possibly can besides attending to the needs of the present moment. It doesn’t know what the needs of the present moment are, because it is too lost in ideals.
Awareness ceases with death. Perhaps you mean a transvaluation, a transformation of the self.Truth can only be when awareness of the non-existence of the
self/world emerges. Such an awareness can only come into being via death of all values and ideals, via death of the self.
To what end do you imagine death should interest us? Dying at the right time is not an 'interest' as such.Why isn’t anyone really interested in death before they physically die? Because they are too busy enjoying themselves – intellectually and more basely.
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R. Steven Coyle
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Cory,
Okay.
Doesn't mean that our choices aren't also due to an ideal we may have.
You choose not to believe in choice, for comfort - for greater awareness.Steven: I think that by having ideals, we inevitably set ourselves up for future understanding.
Cory: Why not understand right now? Why put it off?
Steven: Couldn't "the now" show us our own ideals?
Cory: Idealism is for lost souls who are stuck in between the innocence of childhood and the innocence of enlightenment.
Okay.
Doesn't mean that our choices aren't also due to an ideal we may have.
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Cory Duchesne
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Steven wrote:
First of all, choices are an illusion. I've gone into great detail explaining why I see this as so on many different threads.
Second, do you think its important to make a distinction between merely believing in something and acknowledging a fact?
To be idealistic is to be deluded and to be deluded is to be bewildered before an array of possibilities. People love bewilderment, idealism, and delusion - -therefore they love the sesibility that there is choice. Hence they are generally terrified of otherwise.
You choose not to believe in choice, for comfort - for greater awareness. I agree.
Doesn't mean that our choices aren't also due to an ideal we may have.
First of all, choices are an illusion. I've gone into great detail explaining why I see this as so on many different threads.
Second, do you think its important to make a distinction between merely believing in something and acknowledging a fact?
To be idealistic is to be deluded and to be deluded is to be bewildered before an array of possibilities. People love bewilderment, idealism, and delusion - -therefore they love the sesibility that there is choice. Hence they are generally terrified of otherwise.
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R. Steven Coyle
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One aspect of idealism.To be idealistic is to be deluded and to be deluded is to be bewildered before an array of possibilities. People love bewilderment, idealism, and delusion -- therefore they love the sensibility that there is choice. Hence they are generally terrified of otherwise.
The act of believing in enlightenment is idealistic, etc.
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Cory Duchesne
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R. Steven Coyle
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Leyla Shen
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R. Steven Coyle
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