Grieving people are the ugliest people

[Sapius]

Quote:
but however is where the Meaning Making begins and the Drama unfolds..

Again, yes, but…

I’m terribly sorry, my apologies, no buts, right? I shouldn’t be saying anything beyond ‘yes’.

Just one thing though, why is the ‘but’ part not included in the ‘There is nothing Really the matter’? Your post does suggest that something IS the matter. May be you don’t REALLY mean nothing, but ‘nothing except something’. Or may be not REALLY but SUPERFICIALLY there is a matter, because you yourself do not stop after realizing ‘There is nothing REALLY the matter’. If nothing is really the matter, full stop, then why does drama bother you? Or is your full stop REALLY a comma?

Frankly speaking, if what you say is REALLY the Truth, it would be illogical for you to have a negative opinion about anything at all, unless you redefine – nothing, in the "There is nothing REALLY the matter"

No it's fine...absolutely fabulous...make all the Meaning you wish...fill the World with it...build your Meaning Mansions...create your scripts...and live them...and live them thru'...completely live them thru'...actually it's Where You Get Your Life From...Your Script Hunger.

There's nothing REALLY the matter.

It's empty and meaningless
THAT
It's empty and meaningless

frank

Ah! I get it! That’s brilliant! All that we describe is empty and meaningless. Fabulous! I agree! There's nothing Really the matter. :)

.

[Shardrol]

Shardrol:
I think what you're talking about is when grief is compounded by righteousness, a feeling of nobility for having suffered, a kind of pride of having had something 'terrible' happen. That's what causes some grieving people to be condescending & unempathetic. For example I heard of a woman whose daughter was killed when the World Trade Center was destroyed who wore her grief like a medal of honor & used it as a means of manipulating the susceptible. A lot of people who lost friends & relatives in the World Trade Center seem to be like this, & they have been mightily encouraged by incessant media attention.

David Quinn:
Yes, that is classic feminine behaviour - whether it be expressed in women or men. For the feminine-minded person, forming attachments is a win-win situation. First, there are the pleasures to be found in enjoying the attachment while it is still in existence, and then, when the attachment is ripped away, there are the pleasures of self-pity, anger, feeling special and being in the centre of attention.

I know this is an old & tired argument between us, but I don't see forming attachments as particularly feminine behavior. I see it as ordinary human: we attempt to substantiate our sense of existence by attaching ourselves to people, things, ideas, self-definitions, philosophies, &c.

The feminine ego is very cunning and knows how to get enjoyment out of almost every situation.

Yes, that is characteristic of ego: turning every situation into another chapter in The Story of Me. Even pain is better than the suspicion that the idea of 'me' might be a fiction.

Shardrol:
I have understood that what complicates my own situation is the feeling that I could have done more than I did, acted better, been more helpful, less critical, more sympathetic than I was. Not that this would have changed anything, but I regret the lost opportunity. Someone I once knew said "Knowledge not lived is sin". This feels meaningful to me.

David Quinn:
That's a good saying. I like that one. It applies to my own views on grief, in that if a person knows that being attached to things is an expression of ignorance and a violation of the Truth, then falling into grief is a sin.Or perhaps more accurately, it is a consequence of sin.

Are you saying that now, in your grief, you realize that you had lost perspective during your relationship with your friend while he or she was still alive, that you had got caught up in more petty concerns which led you to be more antagonistic towards him or her?

I understood the situation earlier, when she was alive, but somehow I wasn't able to extract both of us from patterns of interacting we established long ago (we were sisters). To be fair, she actively worked against it. She didn't want anything to change.

Isn't this just a form of narcissism?

Sure thang.

I suppose you could sublimate this narcissism and elevate it into a spiritual practice by vowing to never lose perspective ever again. But then, how can one ever form an attachment and not lose perspective?

Exactly. But I find it's a lot easier not to form new ones than to dismantle old ones. Most of my old ones have considerately died off, though.
.

[Jason]

The Flux of moving from one emotional state to another to another to another is a remarkable event to observe detachedly.

Really, there's nothing to fix.

It's perfect.

It is really quite spectacularly beautiful, this flux, there is neither reason to judge it perjoratively nor intervene in the drama as it plays itself out...

Would you think it was beautiful and not judge it pejoratively if someone broke into your house, tied you to a chair, and slowly blow-torched and stabbed you to death over several days? If that happened to me, I'd say there was definitely something the fuck wrong with the drama, and it was ugly as all hell.

[unwise]

Worse still is when you get a whole mob of grieving people together at a funeral - talk about UGLY! Every conceivable emotion is brought forth to feed the wretched cannibals, who use and abuse the corpse for their own amusement. Each person claws and bites at the fresh kill. Some laugh, while others cry. They tell and retell stories of the good times and bad times. Some feel remorse, while others forgive. They don’t stop until they have had their fill, but even then they take home a doggy bag of bits of the corpse to snack on later.

You should move in with David and pleasure him with such talk.

[hades]

as long as you judge things to be pretty or ugly, you're just as lost as those grieving people

[unwise]

.....or just as groovy as the happy people.

[suergaz]

----

[MKFaizi]

Jason wrote:

Would you think it was beautiful and not judge it pejoratively if someone broke into your house, tied you to a chair, and slowly blow-torched and stabbed you to death over several days? If that happened to me, I'd say there was definitely something the fuck wrong with the drama, and it was ugly as all hell.

HAW

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

Sap wrote:

Fabulous! I agree! There's nothing Really the matter. :)

All we need is love..love..love is all we need.

Let me take you down to strawberry fields. Nothing is real.

We all live in a yellow submarine..

What caliber of LSD are you taking? Is it slow release -- like, could I take it safely at work and hallucinate incense and peppermints while dealing with brain tumors and lobectomies?

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

A long winded one wrote:

you're just as lost as those grieving people

Right.

Those who rejoice or feel nothing for an infant or child's death or the death of a close associate are enlightened.

I can only imagine the outpouring of grief and other snavelious emotion if one of the great sages here died.

Reaction to loss is automatic. You can't rationalize it. You cannot intellectualize or pretend the shock away.

Faizi

[sue hindmarsh]

Marsha wrote:

Those who rejoice or feel nothing for an infant or child's death or the death of a close associate are enlightened.

How a person reacts to someone’s death depends on the level of their attachment to them. A close relative or friend will feel the death more deeply than say a person who met the deceased once at a dinner party. A person living two suburbs away reading the obituaries in the local rag will more than likely feel nothing for the stranger he is reading about.

None of the people above are enlightened, because all of them are attached to the idea of a self that can die. Most people think of the self as a mostly static thing that emanates from the mind. They know that the self interacts with the environment, but they think that they are two separated things. It isn’t difficult to see that that can’t be the case. The self depends on the mind, which in turn depends on the body. The body depends on food, oxygen, sunlight, gravity, etc. This environment the self exists in is always changing, which also means the self is always changing. This constant changing nature of the self means that there isn’t a static self seated inside a person: instead it is a causally induced fleeting apparition, with neither a beginning nor an end, which never exists as exactly the same thing in any two consecutive moments.

The enlightened person knows that causal change is Nature’s way, and rests easy in this knowledge, neither experiencing loss, nor gain.

I can only imagine the outpouring of grief and other snavelious emotion if one of the great sages here died.

Funny to think of people getting upset over the demise of a sage, especially when they have warned people over and over again about the hazzards of attachments.

Reaction to loss is automatic. You can't rationalize it. You cannot intellectualize or pretend the shock away.

Your above take on the subject of loss is an “intellectualized rationalization”, though it is a very mediocre one.

* * *

While people continue to create the causes for the illusion of self, they will also continue to suffer.

Sue

[sue hindmarsh]

Hades wrote:

as long as you judge things to be pretty or ugly, you're just as lost as those grieving people.

It is okay to describe grieving people as “lost”, but it isn’t okay to judge them as “pretty or ugly”?

What is your thinking behind this discrimination?

Sue

[suergaz]

Worse still is when you get a whole mob of grieving people together at a funeral - talk about UGLY! Every conceivable emotion is brought forth to feed the wretched cannibals, who use and abuse the corpse for their own amusement. Each person claws and bites at the fresh kill. Some laugh, while others cry. They tell and retell stories of the good times and bad times. Some feel remorse, while others forgive. They don’t stop until they have had their fill, but even then they take home a doggy bag of bits of the corpse to snack on later.

And what about the corpse; is his life “celebrated”? No way. What was once a complex person with both enemies and friends; is now thought by all to be a saint. His life is made a mockery of through the elimination of all that is now found “not nice” and the highlighting of traits that he had when he was a young boy. His whole life is boiled down to a colourless gruel fit to be consumed by those who ‘love’ him.

“He has gone to a better place” they say, “where he has neither troubles nor woes”. What a load of codswallop. Even in death they aren’t going to let him loose. They’ll drag him around for as long as he is useful, only letting him drop into oblivion when every last ounce of emotion is sucked dry – only then can the poor bugger get to rest in peace.

Sue

How many have you been to?

[Sapius]

Sap wrote:

Fabulous! I agree! There's nothing Really the matter. :)

All we need is love..love..love is all we need.

Let me take you down to strawberry fields. Nothing is real.

We all live in a yellow submarine..

Faizi

Hi Marsha,

It has been many many years since your generally irrelevant and incoherantly expressed comments were directed to what I said.

What caliber of LSD are you taking? Is it slow release -- like, could I take it safely at work and hallucinate incense and peppermints while dealing with brain tumors and lobectomies?

hehe.. I guess you forgot, but none of your derogative comments actually provoked me irrelevant of your desperate attempts many years ago. In fact I remember that somebody advised you then that your provocations will not work with Sapius. So how is it any different now? And how do you think I should respond to your comment born out of a non-coherently understood discussion?

If it helps, I think you might have missed this post... by Diebert.

The last and increasingly popular resort for any ego: the impregnably postmodern castle made of nihilist bricks, carrying the golden shiny dome of misunderstanding. Beware of the dragon guarding the entrance: blocking the bravest knights by sucking their meanings. Here, here, brave knights: without the lady of the ivory tower lowering her braid, the quest is doomed from the start!

May be this will give you a better picture, but I doubt it.

.

[sue hindmarsh]

suergaz wrote:

How many have you been to?

The last funeral I attended was twenty-four years ago. I had attended seven funerals before that one.

Since then, nine members of my family (brother, cousins, aunts and uncles) have died, but I did not attend their funerals.

Sue

[Cato]

When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.

And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?

I have bit one thing to say... and I will alter the first paragraph to make the point.

When you watch a person who doesn't care about anyone but themselves, what do you see?You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.

In other words, why is DavidQuinn000 not displaying exactly the traits he seems to so despise in the grieving?

[suergaz]

Sue: The last funeral I attended was twenty-four years ago. I had attended seven funerals before that one.

Since then, nine members of my family (brother, cousins, aunts and uncles) have died, but I did not attend their funerals.

Sue

Will you decide with me not to go to any more? And not even to speak ill of them? Let's fly from them. I'm invulnerable in my heels.

[frank]

frank wrote:
The Flux of moving from one emotional state to another to another to another is a remarkable event to observe detachedly.

Really, there's nothing to fix.

It's perfect.


frank wrote:

It is really quite spectacularly beautiful, this flux, there is neither reason to judge it perjoratively nor intervene in the drama as it plays itself out...

jason wrote:
Would you think it was beautiful and not judge it pejoratively if someone broke into your house, tied you to a chair, and slowly blow-torched and stabbed you to death over several days? If that happened to me, I'd say there was definitely something the fuck wrong with the drama, and it was ugly as all hell.

OK...let's have a look at a feature of the Drama...the Drama has 3 Main Roles happening...Rescuer/Perpetrator/Victim.

In your little 'dramatic depiction' there, you are saying 'What if I was a Victim?..how could I not think the drama was ugly as hell?

You and Me didn't cause the Drama Jason...we're just in it..
You will not live a Life that is not full of the experience of being victim..being rescuer...being perpetrator....your mind is organised to work that way..

There REALLY is nothing the matter except if you think there is or what meaning you give to it...

Listen in on conversations your friends/family/workmates are having and Identify the Roles as they are telling their tale...

The Classic Role Play is God/Jesus=Rescuer....Devil=Perpetrator...Humans=Possible Victims....

If you read thru the posts on this board you can see the Roles being played out...

Some people are trying to Rescue Logic from the Deluded to save the Innocent...

One guy is trying to Rescue Civility from a perp called Choke apparently to prevent the board from being a victim...

A couple are perping 'grieving people' which causes others to enter the fray with rescuing comments...

The Tentacles of the Drama reach into every corner of our existence...

It's Hilarious

AND

It is quite amazing and quite beautiful and is caused...

AND

It is empty and meaningless
THAT it is empty and meaningless

frank

[Sapius]

The Tentacles of the Drama reach into every corner of our existence...

It's Hilarious

AND

It is quite amazing and quite beautiful and is caused...

AND

It is empty and meaningless
THAT it is empty and meaningless

Frank, how is it AND and AND?

.

[frank]

Quote:
The Tentacles of the Drama reach into every corner of our existence...

It's Hilarious

AND

It is quite amazing and quite beautiful and is caused...

AND

It is empty and meaningless
THAT it is empty and meaningless

Sapius wrote:
Frank, how is it AND and AND?

The Drama goes under other names, eg..Samsara (Buddhism).

The Truth is it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless...

'It's Hilarious'...it's 'Amazing and Beautiful'....that's my take on it Sapius. Because I'm a Meaning Maker I will automatically ascribe a Meaning to it...

If I was a Universe Designer I would probably use Drama as a feature of it as well....as a plot device.

It's a thing that gets action happening...there's a tension point between the 3 Roles that has them play off against each other..
A Universe where Beings sat around on clouds playing harps & singing psalms definitely wouldn't cut it for most of us.

The thing is you get a 'Self' in order to play the Game...the Self is the thing that 'processes' it's way thru'..using thoughts and feelings...

The Self at any time is a position in respect to the Drama...or the Self is affected by it and seeks a way to cope.

Some Self's like Buddhists & QRS despise it and withdraw from it as far as possible.
Jason thinks it's 'ugly as hell'.
Lots of Self's get overwhelmed by it and do the drug and booze scenario to 'escape' from it..
Some Self's do Self Development Courses, Books, CD's to try and be a better player.
Some Self's get after the 'Money' to 'erect a barricade' against the harsher 'edges' of it.
Some Self's get into Serving Others to get some Karma in the Bank as a kind of Insurance policy.
Some Self's commit suicide to 'flee it'..

People are generally freaked out about it and try to control it but it just meanders along thru' space and time...
It's the Fishbowl and we're the Fish in there swimming in it...

I like the Taoists thang where they say the Self is part of the illusion and enlightenment is when the Self Dissolves and it all becomes clear...
The Taoists say try not to do good (rescuer)....try not to do bad (perpetrator)...doing such things is trying to Control stuff and it gets you further in the mire...

'It's fascinating' is another meaning I find myself putting on it.

Mostly I'm very impressed with the Universe Designer...in Awe actually...

frank

[Sapius]

Quote:
The Tentacles of the Drama reach into every corner of our existence...

It's Hilarious

AND

It is quite amazing and quite beautiful and is caused...

AND

It is empty and meaningless
THAT it is empty and meaningless

Sapius wrote:
Frank, how is it AND and AND?

The Drama goes under other names, eg..Samsara (Buddhism).

The Truth is it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless...

'It's Hilarious'...it's 'Amazing and Beautiful'....that's my take on it Sapius. Because I'm a Meaning Maker I will automatically ascribe a Meaning to it...

If I was a Universe Designer I would probably use Drama as a feature of it as well....as a plot device.

It's a thing that gets action happening...there's a tension point between the 3 Roles that has them play off against each other..
A Universe where Beings sat around on clouds playing harps & singing psalms definitely wouldn't cut it for most of us.

The thing is you get a 'Self' in order to play the Game...the Self is the thing that 'processes' it's way thru'..using thoughts and feelings...

The Self at any time is a position in respect to the Drama...or the Self is affected by it and seeks a way to cope.

Some Self's like Buddhists & QRS despise it and withdraw from it as far as possible.
Jason thinks it's 'ugly as hell'.
Lots of Self's get overwhelmed by it and do the drug and booze scenario to 'escape' from it..
Some Self's do Self Development Courses, Books, CD's to try and be a better player.
Some Self's get after the 'Money' to 'erect a barricade' against the harsher 'edges' of it.
Some Self's get into Serving Others to get some Karma in the Bank as a kind of Insurance policy.
Some Self's commit suicide to 'flee it'..

People are generally freaked out about it and try to control it but it just meanders along thru' space and time...
It's the Fishbowl and we're the Fish in there swimming in it...

I like the Taoists thang where they say the Self is part of the illusion and enlightenment is when the Self Dissolves and it all becomes clear...
The Taoists say try not to do good (rescuer)....try not to do bad (perpetrator)...doing such things is trying to Control stuff and it gets you further in the mire...

'It's fascinating' is another meaning I find myself putting on it.

Mostly I'm very impressed with the Universe Designer...in Awe actually...

frank

Thanks for the script. I understand and acknowledge your part in this drama too.

.

[Lost Prophet]

This forum is silly. I feel like I'm in Disneyland.

[bert]

hi lost one,

so...you are here to work on your sillyness?

beginnings and endings have no reality - they are dramatic changes.

[frank]

Sapius wrote:
Thanks for the script. I understand and acknowledge your part in this drama too.

Well done Sapius..now you've caught up to Nietschke...you are now up to speed with the great philosophers.

Nature is like a musical expression...turning out forms...giraffes giraffe, dogs dog, piggies pig, birdies bird, people people...

the condition of people is to Make Meaning...it's caused.

Understanding it's 'empty and meaningless' is often a Mental Space people arrive at and suffer depression from it...

What you have to do is take the next step and realise it's 'empty and meaningless THAT it's empty and meaningless'...

This gets you to Freedom.

But you also see that you are 'in a bind'...because you want to go on....you want to persist...you want to keep living...

To do that you have to make Meaning...to go on....hehe..it's hilarious!

Now that you know that you are a Meaning Maker and you know what Meaning is.....Interpretation...

If Nature was Chopin you would be Interpreting Chopin..hehe

The Interpreting becomes an Artistic impulse toward creating your Version of 'What Form Should the Life of A Man Take' or 'What Form Should Society Take'....

Most Meaning is aimed at trying to provide an answer to that...because we are caused to try and persist...hehe..

Socrates 'got it' and decided his form would be examining other's forms and querying the 'solidity' of the 'structure'...

Plato 'got it' and put together a little number with the design feature that had the Philosopher's as the KIngs...

Nietschke 'got it' and chimed in with the Ubermensch or OverMan....

QRS 'got it' and tickles the Ivories with a Trio set up called 'Don't Work, Don't Breed'...it's got a nice little back beat with a clever use of Harmony...doop doop de doop doop...hehe..

Effectively people invent forms and try and manifest them into existence....the various forms compete for prominence.. blah blah..that's where drama is caused...

REALLY, there's nothing going on...that's the joke!

frank

[Leyla Shen]

frank, you demonstrate the depth of a toenail.