The Death of Socrates

[Ryan Rudolph]

Socrates Quote:

“If my life is to be prolonged now, I know that I must live out my old age, seeing worse, hearing less, learning with more difficulty, and forgetting more and more of what I have learned. If I see myself growing worse and reproach myself for it, tell me, how could I continue to live pleasantly? Perhaps even the god in his kindness is offering to end my life not only at the right time, but also in the easiest way possible...”

I’ve considered this idea as well. Is it moral to kill oneself before the madness of old age sets in? Wouldn’t be ideal to die at a point when there is total clarity? One of my biggest fears is that after spending a lifetime dedicated to truth and maturing psychologically, old age causes the brain to degenerate into an insane zombie state.

Who wants to end up a senile old man laying in a hospital bed somewhere who compulsively dictates the importance of nonattachment to some smug nurse while she’s in the process of changing your adult diaper….not I!

Yes, my mind is made up, I’ll kill myself before I get grow insane. As soon as I feel the sharpness of the mind start to fade away, this philosopher is gonna take a long carbon monoxide snooze…

What do you guys think? To be or not to be when insanity begins to set in?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Wouldn’t be ideal to die at a point when there is total clarity? One of my biggest fears is that after spending a lifetime dedicated to truth and maturing psychologically, old age causes the brain to degenerate into an insane zombie state.

What I know from observation and scientific research of the last decade in the field of brain aging, there's no reason at all to assume the brain degenerates or stops growing or improving at all - ever. It mostly depends on the stimulation it receives and general health of the body which has indeed become more vulnerable.

If interested I can look up some references. Traditional views on this issue are mostly quite dated and unfounded.

[Terry]

Socrates Quote:

“If my life is to be prolonged now, I know that I must live out my old age, seeing worse, hearing less, learning with more difficulty, and forgetting more and more of what I have learned. If I see myself growing worse and reproach myself for it, tell me, how could I continue to live pleasantly? Perhaps even the god in his kindness is offering to end my life not only at the right time, but also in the easiest way possible...”

I’ve considered this idea as well. Is it moral to kill oneself before the madness of old age sets in? Wouldn’t be ideal to die at a point when there is total clarity? One of my biggest fears is that after spending a lifetime dedicated to truth and maturing psychologically, old age causes the brain to degenerate into an insane zombie state.

Who wants to end up a senile old man laying in a hospital bed somewhere who compulsively dictates the importance of nonattachment to some smug nurse while she’s in the process of changing your adult diaper….not I!

Yes, my mind is made up, I’ll kill myself before I get grow insane. As soon as I feel the sharpness of the mind start to fade away, this philosopher is gonna take a long carbon monoxide snooze…

What do you guys think? To be or not to be when insanity begins to set in?

There's also an interesting issue in your dilemma: What if you are not aware you are insane when you are insane? It has been my experience that many insane people deny their insanity and lack the capacity to see beyond their worldview. They believe their experience is *THE* reality and not a subjective interpretation of it. They believe everyone else is insane and they are perfectly normal.

Following this train of thought, I may as well define sanity. Sanity is the ability to be able to see other people's perspectives and consider them as valid viewpoints as one's own. Sanity is being able to adjust oneself to changing reality without losing one's mind in the process. In other words: it's an awareness of one's own self-awareness while one acts, thinks, and lives. It's a meta-awareness or meta-consciousness. By being able to distance oneself from one's own awareness, then one can consider other viewpoints in an understanding manner. I'm basically connecting sanity with Fichte's idea of the transcendent ego.

Your mind may be sharp now; however, inevitably it won't be later. I believe one's intelligence and self-awareness is connected to their physiology. Some people are more intelligent, more prone to depression, have exceptional memory etc... because of certain configurations of their brain and body chemistry. If you do not sleep enough or take care of yourself, your potential capacity to think intelligently is hampered. When one is in optimal health, then one perceives oneself differently from when one has a flu. Intelligence, awareness, and conscious consciousness are a result from excessively complex biological mechanisms and perhaps other things we have not understood yet.

Nevertheless what difference does it make if you are incapable of being aware of it? You measure yourself by your standards. Your current physiology controls how you think and perceive yourself. What if these biological standards change and you are unaware that they have changed, and you erroneously think everything about yourself is nearly the same as it was before?

Life is suffering; to suffer unnecessarily is undesireable---I agree. Though I do ponder whether enlightening wisdom actually corresponds to reality or is a trait of the insane (bliss induced from madness).

[Kevin Solway]

Sanity is the ability to be able to see other people's perspectives and consider them as valid viewpoints as one's own.

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid"

Do you mean "Not necessarily correct, but nevertheless with causes."

For example, the perspective of a fundamentalist Christian is not correct, but considering their lack of intelligence and poor upbringing, it is understandable. Therefore their perspective is "valid"?

[MKFaizi]

How do you decide when the time has come to take the snooze?

Things are not the same as in Socrates' day. Most old people I know are general run of the mill people. No more useless than the rest of the population. They are not insane but continue to function very well. If any of them were philosophers, I have no doubt that they could still think and write. Ig they were artists, they could still paint or sculpt.

In the US, there are many many people in their eighties who are independent and can drive and take care of themselves. This changes sharply when you get to the age of ninety. Most people die before ninety. With few exceptions, few people past ninety can live independently and they become like children.

This in the outside world. There are helpless people of all ages in nursing homes.

I know one woman who is 105. She is in good physical shape -- looks about eighty. Her mental status is off and on. She could never live alone. Her eighty-six year old daughter who looks about seventy takes care of her.

I know a man who is 100 who lives alone in a big house. Until he was 99, he had a garden. He still drives and plays poker. I have known him for about fifty years. He is as bad a driver now as he was when he was fifty.

Had he been born David Quinn or Kevin Solway or Friedrich Nietzsche or whatever other philosopher -- with the same genetic bent toward longevity -- I have no doubt that he would still be writing and thinking. His mind is as clear now as when he was fifty.

I am fifty three and I am just as forgetful as I was when I was eighteen. I am capable of doing more physically than when I was eighteen. I have more stamina and will power. Mentally, I am far more "wise" than when I was eigthteen or when I was forty. I am far sharper than when I was eighteen.

I loathe the idea of becoming a doddering little old lady. I don't mind aging. I like the independence that has come with age.

Why do we equate age with insanity?

I know many young people who are insane. Should they kill themselves?

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

Well, chances are Cosmic Penis will kill himself as soon as he realizes he can't get a hard on.

Men are very obsessed with this idea. That is why there are so many men in their early thirties asking for Viagra.

Totally ridiculous. Fear of impotence is a huge issue with men past the age of twenty-nine.

I saw one man in his early thirties come in complaining of chest pain and this and that other thing -- went through all sorts of cardiac and radiological tests. Last time he came, he asked for some Viagra. I saw him pop one in his mouth as he walked out the door.

I reckon that will be his cure.

As long as a man can still get it up, he's all right.

Is a flaccid dick grounds for suicide?

I have seen men very close to death ask for Viagra. Incredible.

Faizi

[Ryan Rudolph]

MKFaizi wrote:

Why do we equate age with insanity?

Yes insanity occurs at every age level. However there’s a time when the body and mind shut down completely, but through medical science we are now able to keep the organism alive even when the brain is dead, and I’m asking what is the point?

If you go into hospitals there are old men laying in beds that are in their nineties and hundreds that are barely conscious.

However this fate may only result in someone that does not use their mind to its fullest capacity. So perhaps if someone is supremely rational the mind will remain clear right up until death.

MKFaizi wrote:

Well, chances are Cosmic Penis will kill himself as soon as he realizes he can't get a hard on.

You caught me MKFaizi, I knew someone finally would, Actually I’m secretly planning to transform genius forum into a lewd confluence free for all. I’m glad you brought it to my attention because that is all I think about these days. The fantasies are incredibly intense you know.

What a source of gratification! What excitement! What better way to strengthen the will then by compulsively fantasizing about inserting a hairy erect member into a stinky hole in the woman’s body that allows her to urinate and ovulate…

Yum! Where do I sign up MKFaizi? Actually, Put me down for two and I’ll even sign the guestbook afterwards.

[Leyla Shen]

Ryan,

What a source of gratification! What excitement! What better way to strengthen the will then by compulsively fantasizing about inserting a hairy erect member into a stinky hole in the woman’s body that allows her to urinate and ovulate…

You know, I hate to make this about sex again, but: man, do you have some serious misconceptions about female biology.

Either that, or your dick is about the size of a needle.

It’s not “the hole” you fuck that allows a woman to urinate. The urethra -- the passage through which urine passes from the bladder and into the toilet, or on your head if you like Golden Showers -- is just above the vaginal opening (and beneath the clitoris), the hole you do fuck.

In men, “the stinky hole” that allows them to urinate is the same hole he ejaculates from.

I suggest you find some women who shower regularly with clean water and soap and don‘t sleep around or allow someone to fuck their “stinky hole” after anal sex.

Silly.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Leyla wrote:

I hate to make this about sex again, but: man, do you have some serious misconceptions about female biology.

Either that, or your dick is about the size of a needle.

Leyla I’m afraid both are true my dear. It quite painful to be a short sighted small dicked man.

Leyla wrote:

or on your head if you like Golden Showers

You’re not taking care of yourself Leyla, you see the urine only has a yellowish tinge when there is toxins in the body.

If you were eating good food and drinking lots of water, you’re urine would be completely transparent like mine.

No wonder you’re stinky hole stinks.

That’s gross Leyla, take care of yourself for god’s sake. (Ryan points his finger and scorns her like a father figure)

Leyla wrote:

The urethra -- the passage through which urine passes from the bladder and into the toilet, or on your head if you like Golden Showers -- is just above the vaginal opening (and beneath the clitoris), the hole you do fuck.

I cannot be bothered to make these two distinctions within the female body.

What you need to understand Leyla is to be a great philosopher one needs to have a genuine disdain for the feminine temptations because if not the man’s soul is subsumed through the woman’s uterus.

So don’t take this to heart, but I’d prefer to just think of women in general as one big smelly stinky hole that I don’t want anything to do with anymore only because I have been incredibly attached to her body in the past and I cannot bear that sort of suffering again.

So the exaggeration serves a certain purpose, it makes it much easier to stay in solitude.

the truth is I have a dark sexual shadow with women that I’m trying to leave behind.

An untainted innocent mind is the goal, but to do so there needs to be a stern aversion to the feminine, it’s the only way to remain child-like.

Socrates wrote:

“All honest men are like children.”

And Soren Kierkegaard stated: its either/or.

Either I marry get attached to a female and basically lose my soul or I live alone in solitude, cultivate genius and when I die I’m reborn as a god.

I don’t care how beautiful she is, one has to see the danger in her allure. Its like beholding a beautiful rose, sure you can smell it and take in its perfume from afar, but if you try to grab the rose with both hands the thorns will prick your fingers and leave you bleeding.

This philosopher will never bleed again at the hands of a silly woman.

“Men that live solely for the pussy are pussies”
Cosmic Prostitute

[Leyla Shen]

Ryan,

L: It’s not “the hole” you fuck that allows a woman to urinate. The urethra -- the passage through which urine passes from the bladder and into the toilet, or on your head if you like Golden Showers -- is just above the vaginal opening (and beneath the clitoris), the hole you do fuck.

R: You’re not taking care of yourself Leyla, you see the urine only has a yellowish tinge when there is toxins in the body.

If you were eating good food and drinking lots of water, you’re urine would be completely transparent like mine.

No wonder you’re stinky hole stinks.

That’s gross Leyla, take care of yourself for god’s sake. (Ryan points his finger and scorns her like a father figure)

Thanks, Daddy-boy, but I didn’t make up the term, I just used it.

You are again, however, incorrect -- unless you consider vitamins C and B to be toxins. When I take excessive C and a decent dose of Bs (usually after insufficient sleep, or before it for preparedness) I piss a deep yellow. After Bs, you can smell it in the urine. 2mls of my urine would probably give you more nutrition than you’d get from a case of average supermarket apples, mate.

Bottoms up.

As far as the rest of your post goes, it just further demonstrates the issues I have with the Woman rhetoric. Most men are too “womanish” to understand it.

You don’t have a problem with women, you have one with love. If you want to believe that you are in love with a set of ovaries and fallopian tubes, vulva and clitoris, and then make it up to be something quite different, that’s your business. One fantasy, however, will not rid you of another; nor will it make you a philosopher.

“Men that live solely for the pussy are pussies”

No, a pussy is a pussy. Someone who lives solely for pussy is puss whipped and that includes those who have dedicated their lives to fighting pussies from points of isolation. Can’t get more puss whipped than that, I reckon.

But, just to be sure, the next time my son “falls madly in love” to the point of insanity, I’ll be sure to tell him that a woman is nothing more than a big, stinky hole rather than give him a rundown of male and female biology coupled with reason (which worked quite well rather recently). Then, he too may become a philosopher just like you -- running away into a fortress of mind instead of facing its foundations head on.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Leyla wrote:

I’ll be sure to tell him that a woman is nothing more than a big, stinky hole rather than give him a rundown of male and female biology coupled with reason.

Let me define big stinky hole: an entity overly concerned with outward appearance, and constantly insecure about that appearance, someone that values the sexual act and seeks sentimental emotional bonds with others, someone who has the same ten opinions their entire life and someone that craves flattery, attention, fame and all the rest of it.

Basically a frightened insecure ego is a big stinky hole.

The truth is that every woman I have met thus far have been a big stinky hole, but I’m not saying all women are irrational, I know there are exceptions, but the fact is that a suffering man is much more likely to grow into a sage than a suffering woman, I didn’t make the rules, I just dictate the facts.

Leyla wrote:

unless you consider vitamins C and B to be toxins.

Anything consumed in excess is regarded as a toxin to the body, even if it is a nutrient. It requires extra energy to dispose of something that shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

The energy that the body loses in disposing in excess substances is energy that should have been dissipated in other bodily functions and processes.

This is why a prolonged excessive consumption of any nutrient can lead to disease.

bottoms up mate!

“Keep the Dingoes out of the hen house”
Cosmic Prostitute

These quotes are genius, I can't believe those fools at Wikipedia wont listen to me, f*ckers!

[Leyla Shen]

Ryan, previously:

What a source of gratification! What excitement! What better way to strengthen the will then by compulsively fantasizing about inserting a hairy erect member into a stinky hole in the woman’s body that allows her to urinate and ovulate…

Ryan in his last post:

Let me define big stinky hole: an entity overly concerned with outward appearance, and constantly insecure about that appearance, someone that values the sexual act and seeks sentimental emotional bonds with others, someone who has the same ten opinions their entire life and someone that craves flattery, attention, fame and all the rest of it.

Basically a frightened insecure ego is a big stinky hole.

You should try fucking a few men.

Funny how a wannabe sage can do what he wants. And I thought obsessively changing one's mind (and definitions) was a woman's perogative.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Come on Leyla:

One has a direct meaning and the other has a metaphorical meaning, give me a break…

I’m sure the kids at home will be able to discern a metaphor from something that means what it implies.

You’re missing my point here which is most women are incapable of living a moral life, and the sage values this knowledge like a jewel because it keeps him out of trouble, it keeps him in solitude.

You’re picking apart petty things here which happens to be a women’s prerogative.

[Leyla Shen]

Ryan,

Ironic, but I don’t value that knowledge because I don’t have a penis. Therefore, valuing that knowledge to keep me in solitude and out of trouble has little relevance to sagehood, which I do not define as synonymous with chastity. Any metaphorical cocksucker can do that. Just ask your local Catholic priest.

An untainted innocent mind is the goal, but to do so there needs to be a stern aversion to the feminine, it’s the only way to remain child-like.

Innocent? You don’t even know what the “feminine” is. Too cockeyed from having your hand on your penis for too long.

Course, I will not stop you if you wish to journey back down the protoplasm line into your mother’s womb. Watch out for that tree in the middle of the garden, though -- it’s a killer.

[MKFaizi]

Oh, well. So much for that topic.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

Cosmic Penis wrote:

However there’s a time when the body and mind shut down completely, but through medical science we are now able to keep the organism alive even when the brain is dead, and I’m asking what is the point?

There is no point.

But I thought we were speaking of a time before a body would kept alive when the brain is dead. I thought we were talking about the making of a choice between continuing to live and choosing to die. A body that is sustained after brain death does not have a choice -- unless a family member makes that choice for him.

This sort of thing happens less now than it did twenty years ago. If a human is brain dead for seventy-two hours, he can be taken off all life support. Brain death is pretty extreme. Brain death means that life is sustained by a ventilator. Most insurance companies will not pay for this indefinitely.

So, that sort of brain dead existence is not much of an issue. Brain damaged people are sometimes sustained, unfortunately. They do not need a vent to breathe.

But I thought we were discussing a conscious decision to die when one senses that one's viable and useful time is up.

That idea is far different from a life being sustained past brain death caused by trauma or cerebral vascular accident.

At what precise moment should a human being decide that he should no longer live; especially a human being who strives toward philosophical thought?

Should he kill himself when he loses his sight? I reckon a blind man can still think and write -- even he must dictate his thought.

When he is deaf? When his memory starts to slip?

Should Nietzsche have had the perception to kill himself before he became helpless? When exactly should he have perceived his oncoming invalidism? At what exact point should he have known? After Zarathustra? Before Beyond Good and Evil?

Should Beethoven have killed himself upon becoming deaf? Should Van Gogh have killed himself before painting Starry Night -- should he have known he was insane and spared the world his vision?

Faizi

[Ryan Rudolph]

Leyla wrote:

Therefore, valuing that knowledge to keep me in solitude and out of trouble has little relevance to sagehood,

I disagree, if you value sagehood then as a female you should stay clear of men that are rooted in the feminine.

Leyla wrote:

You don’t even know what the “feminine” is.

Feminine: overly concerned with sensuality, outward appearances, excitement etc. Basically one is feminine if they are constantly escaping reality through self-gratifying illusions, which is the essence of attachment.

In North America, the two most popular things an ignorant female prefers is chocolate and Tigger from Winnnie the Pooh.

Think about the personality of Tigger and what the character represents psychologically. To my understanding this is a huge chuck of the feminine nature.

If it bothers you as a female, then call the feminine the masculine, and the masculine the feminine.

It is a duality, the feminine is the masculine. They are only placeholders.

Men and women have both the feminine and the masculine essences.

And because most men and women are rooted in the feminine, it's not safe to get too involved in relationships. Close friends are rare.

[Ryan Rudolph]

MKFaizi wrote:

But I thought we were discussing a conscious decision to die when one senses that one's viable and useful time is up.

That idea is far different from a life being sustained past brain death caused by trauma or cerebral vascular accident.

I was considering both. But as you suggest the difficult argument is if its even possible for an intelligent person to commit suicide as the body and mind starts to decay.

Moreover I’ve been thinking that committing suicide is a huge act of will and individuals only resort to it if there is intense suffering so I suppose without the suffering it wont happen anyway.

Its probably something that isn’t worth coming to a conclusion because it wont be my choice whether or not suffering in the body or mind cause one to commit suicide.

I suppose all those individuals you mentioned didn’t commit suicide because life was still tolerable.

[MKFaizi]

I was considering both. But as you suggest the difficult argument is if its even possible for an intelligent person to commit suicide as the body and mind starts to decay.

It was not evident that you were considering medical brain death from the inception of your discussion.

In your discussion of Socrates, you were contemplating when a human being should decide to stop his life on the basis of decline.

Should Stephen Hawkings have killed himself because of his infirmities? Do you know of him?

Moreover I’ve been thinking that committing suicide is a huge act of will and individuals only resort to it if there is intense suffering so I suppose without the suffering it wont happen anyway.

I cannot equate a huge act of will with suffering. I thought that you were addressing the idea of suicide as a conscious act that has nothing to do with suffering. I wonder if a person who is suffering can be said to have much will. I don't think so. I know that there is suffering of such magnitude that one succumbs to suicide. I think that is an illness.

I thought that you were attempting to discuss rational suicide -- a rational decision to die when one has outlived one's usefulness. I thought you were thinking of the willful taking of one's own life that has nothing to do with suffering.

Its probably something that isn’t worth coming to a conclusion because it wont be my choice whether or not suffering in the body or mind causes one to commit suicide.

I am having some trouble comprehending how suicide could not be your choice.

Indeed, if the discussion is not worth coming to a conclusion, why did you start it? To attract women?

In absolute honesty -- not trying to be funny -- I am starting to feel like I am having a conversation with a robot. What are your options? If I hit 2, 5,4,3,1 -- will I likely make human contact? What if I say, "Humanoid, humanoid, humanoid," over and over again?

Beetlejuice? If I say Beetlejuice three times, will you constitute?

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice.

Anything there?

Hello? I must be going.

I suppose all those individuals you mentioned didn’t commit suicide because life was still tolerable.

Have you ever heard of Nietzsche?

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

I mean, damn.

Faizi

[Ryan Rudolph]

MKFaizi wrote:

In your discussion of Socrates, you were contemplating when a human being should decide to stop his life on the basis of decline.

Sometimes I go off topic, but some of other ideas explored relate to the original.

however I do realize that sometimes I get a little scatterbrained, some of these posts were written directly after a three hour university exam so my brain was a little fuzzy (unable to remember anything), but bear with me I'm moving towards a point.

It is beneficial to how explore how irrational suicide is caused by intense suffering and then slowly move into the realm of rational suicide. To see the relationship between the two serves a certain purpose.

So someone who commits suicide based on suffering is not rational at the time, but it is still an angle worth exploring and it resonates with the first idea.

MKFaizi wrote:

I thought that you were attempting to discuss rational suicide -- a rational decision to die when one has outlived one's usefulness. I thought you were thinking of the willful taking of one's own life that has nothing to do with suffering.

Lets consider some of these individuals that you mentioned.

Nietzsche – yes
Stephen Hawking - no
Beethoven – no

Stephen Hawking and Beethoven were still able to think and function in the world so I would say no to rational suicide, but Nietzsche on the other hand went completely insane so I would say yes for rational suicide.

However I wonder why Nietzsche didn’t choose to commit suicide?

Was he aware that he was growing insane? Perhaps he wasn’t.

So in Nietzsche’s case if there wasn’t awareness of his degenerating mind then suicide would have not even been an option for him.

The point I'm slowly trying to make is that with irrational suicide such as with Kurt Cobain, it wasnt his choice for him to commit suicide. The man had stomach ulcers, drug damage to the brain, an insane wife, he was in contradiction heavily and unable to find any clarity so sucide was not his choice, it was simply caused by the suffering/confusion.

However with Nietzsche there may have been the possibility of rational sucide if he was in fact aware that he was going insane, but I suspect he ultimately lacked this awareness.

[DHodges]

Should Stephen Hawkings have killed himself because of his infirmities? Do you know of him?

I, for one, would rather end up dead than end up in Stephen Hawking's physical condition.

[La Verdad]

I reckon that will be his cure.

As long as a man can still get it up, he's all right.

Is a flaccid dick grounds for suicide?

I have seen men very close to death ask for Viagra. Incredible.

Faizi

I personally think, whatever reason justifies it for the person commiting suicide is proper grounds.
In the Roman Empire, slaves were property, and even they were legally allowed to commit suicide. Life should not be a prison.

Thought you'd get a kick out of this though :P

Man Kills Self Over Genital Size
An 18-year-old Singaporean student committed suicide last month because he was convinced his penis was too small, a report said on Wednesday.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242 ... 180021.htm