The Invalidity of Enlightenment

[N0X23]

So as not to highjack and derail sschaula’s thread (Enlightenment - a state of stupor or constant thought?) any further, I have continued our conversation here.



Diebert van Rhijn

I'm not sure I can follow your step from failing to blaming. Blaming the system, or blaming yourself, both seem a bit pointless.

Blame my not be the right word, perhaps responsible. What is responsible for the defect?

You can only do what you have to do, considering all you know about this world. And if a meteor crashes down on you the second before you reached enlightenment, are you gonna blame someone for it?

I would, if they had spent the last 3000 some odd years, preaching and warning that there IS a meteor and come to find out there is NO meteor, it was all allegory and mythology.
I would hold them accountable and declare them as they are, charlatans.

You are treating all these ancient scriptures too much like some absolute source of authority.The journey must be your own and over time you might see how some of it is true and perhaps how some of it isn't. Why would it matter? You don't know who wrote the stuff, who translated it, who edited it. Do you think there were only enlightened sages involved in handling those texts? Aren't you only assuming something?

But it is these same scriptures that I first learned about Enlightenment.
So if we call their authority into question, then everything is suspect, especially Enlightenment.
So why should I doubt some claims of the scriptures and maintain some semblance of belief in other aspects? That makes no sense.
It still sounds like the same old song and dance bullshit, of perpetuating hope in something I have proven to myself to be false..

These scriptures have value when you start recognizing things in it you already know from experience. You seem to work from the other way around which leads eventually to frustrations.

But I did recognize many things in them, that is why I stated honestly and earnestly investigating their claims.
But there we go again, just like I stated earlier.
The fault is with the individual and not the system.
It’s my fault that I’m frustrated because the claims that these full-of-shit Gurus make, are misleading. I reject that whole-heartedly!

You might have become the victim of the system's 'hive mind' idea of gratification. You have grown impatient seeing no progress, experiencing still some dissatisfaction. How different is that with the story of Siddhartha Gautama? Sometimes you have to walk away from the traditional path to find it again. Maybe you should indeed reconsider everything, rejecting what you learned and tried. How else to get to the beginner's mind?

But this still implies that there is something to this whole fucking fairy-tale of Enlightenment.
Again, the proverbial carrot is dangled in front of the disgruntled seeker, with the intent of perpetuating false hope in a mythological fable.

Beginners Mind? It’s out right bullshit!
I had Beginners Mind before I started this fucking quest.
If Beginners Mind is the answer, why in the fuck did I even need to ask the question.
I stared searching because I suffered and was bound with stress and misery. So I need to get back to where I stated? For what?! To get back what I already had? Sound like the same ol' bullshit to me.

From the few that are looking for it, only the very rare individual finds. Most fail, most give up or embrace some placebo. Why would the most valuable treasure known to men be something different than the most impossible to obtain? Failure is the default. And if you're aiming to gain anything from succeeding, it might be indeed the wrong tree you're barking up.

If failure is the default then the fucking system is flawed.
If most give up fail and embrace placebos then Enlightenment is flawed and not the seeker.
Again, Enlightenment is, as I have claimed, 100%, absolute, contrived dogshit.

[sschaula]

You know, the story of the Buddhas was that he actually didn't believe enlightenment existed either. He tried and tried to find a way to avoid death, by doing yogic poses, fasting, saying mantras, covering himself with ashes, meditating. None of it worked for him.

He gave up his life to become enlightened. He left his royal life behind in order to get this one thing...it was that important to him.

Story goes, he told himself "I will lay under this tree until I die or reach enlightenment"...and so he layed and layed and layed. He was willing to give up his life to nature. Whatever nature chose to do with him, it'd happen, because he had no love for the things of life, like eating, having sex, being popular, etc. All he wanted was enlightenment and it seemed as if he wasn't going to get it, so his dedication was so severe that he just layed under a tree...in his mind for the rest of his life.

Then he became enlightened.

[Cory Duchesne]

Story goes, he told himself "I will lay under this tree until I die or reach enlightenment"...and so he layed and layed and layed. He was willing to give up his life to nature. Whatever nature chose to do with him, it'd happen, because he had no love for the things of life, like eating, having sex, being popular, etc. All he wanted was enlightenment and it seemed as if he wasn't going to get it, so his dedication was so severe that he just layed under a tree...in his mind for the rest of his life.

Then he became enlightened.

Sitting all of that time would obviously clear anyones mind profoundly if they had that kind of passion and initiative. Who can tolerate that kind of pain? Most of us cant sit still for 5 minutes without getting back on the computer, clicking the refresh button, and scanning for new comments in the brothel.

I think Siddartha's mind had significantly cleared up from sitting alone for so long, combined with his past indulgences and passions. He became clear enough that his speach became refreshingly simple and clear to his peers and thus he won followers. But I do not attribute this soley to one sudden burst of enlightenment. That is a fairy tale. It makes sense that if you deprive yourself of experience, naturally the mind will quiet down. If you go on a debauch rampage, your mind will be a swirling mess. The Buddha obviously had a slow, minimal life, and thus a simple, clear mind.

Why dont we all have very slow, minimal and simple lives, living as close to nature as possible?

Because we can't tolerate the pain, we are too anxious, impatient. We are high maintenance. We require a more than minimal ammount of sensation to keep us from going crazy.

[sschaula]

I see you illogically arguing. What if Siddhartha actually became enlightened? Then you'd be wrong.

Neither of us know the truth about what happened. I told the story as a point of view. If it were my point of view that Siddhartha was never enlightened, then I'd be a moron...because I'd be making things up that I had no clue about.

I think that my point was that he gave up completely and it happened. Various sages have said that enlightenment comes through surrendering.

I don't know, though.

[David Quinn]

The trouble is, Nox, reaching this conclusion has constituted an act of blind faith on your part. You don't really have any reasons to reach such a conclusion, other than being swayed by the evidence of your own personal failure.

The logic is: "I have not reached enlightenment, therefore there is no enlightenment."

It doesn't matter how strongly you try to state the case, or how many fucks you put in there, it still rests on wishful thinking and shonky logic.

I think the core of your problem is that you are still seeking an egotistical heaven from the Truth. You are still looking for a bliss that your ego can comprehend and enjoy, and of course, no such thing exists in enlightenment. One really has to go in with the attitude of giving everything of oneself and expecting nothing in return. It is only then that the "real bliss" of enlightenment can arise, when you are no longer concerned in the slightest about what you are experiencing.

-

[Ryan Rudolph]

One common error that many of us make (myself included) is we believe one entity is the absolute truth, and we then allow ourselves to be inculcated with his meme.

Then we spread this meme thinking it is the truth when in actuality it is only a personality fragment of another imperfect being.

I have done the same thing, I have claimed enlightenment is a scam, adopted UG’s vulgarity, and Jiddu Krishnamurti’s romantic abstractions, and sung my song like a wise man.

I pranced around cursing like a sailor, negating everything, and using romantic abstractions such as love, freedom, eternity and all the rest of it as if I was sort of super being.

In effect I was using the other sage's meme as a drug to derive excitment, security, self-worth, self esteem and all the rest of it.

And of course I made absolutely no sense.

the truth is that I had been conditioned, programmed. I had allowed myself to be inculcated with another philosopher’s meme. This is deadly business, and it happens to the best of us.

Any sage on their own is useless.

I recently discovered that the key is seeing how each sage has subtle psychological traps that they themselves are not even aware of.

Cory Patrick is right, all that is real is suffering. If you are free from suffering, you have nothing to worry about, there is nothing to understand.

But if you are bored, anxious, restless, and there are delusions in the brain, you need to come to realizations/insights to overcome this.

Examples:

1. The fact that being programmed by a philosopher’s meme causes irrational thinking.

2. The fact that choice/control/personal will are an illusion.

3. The fact that attachment causes suffering.

4. The fact that solitude strengths one’s being.

5. The fact that logic can be used to see the relationship between things, aesthetically, psychologically and all the rest.

So if enlightenment is a state where the individual has understood all the possible causes of suffering, gone beyond the self, and ultimately became nothing, then I think it is a real thing, wisdom is real.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I'm not sure I can follow your step from failing to blaming. Blaming the system, or blaming yourself, both seem a bit pointless.

Blame my not be the right word, perhaps responsible. What is responsible for the defect?

Which defect? Of some product called 'enlightenment' that you plugged in the power grid and it didn't turn on for longer than a few fleeting moments?

You are treating all these ancient scriptures too much like some absolute source of authority.The journey must be your own and over time you might see how some of it is true and perhaps how some of it isn't.

But it is these same scriptures that I first learned about Enlightenment. So if we call their authority into question, then everything is suspect, especially Enlightenment.

Quite correct. Unlimited suspicion is the basis of all good philosophy. It shouldn't be concerned with unclear scriptures at all, unless they confirm the suspicions.

So why should I doubt some claims of the scriptures and maintain some semblance of belief in other aspects? That makes no sense.

Then try stop believing anything at all! You make it sound as a religion where faith and doubt are the main factors. Throw that all overboard and don't look back! Which you were already doing of course. Good for you.

Then again, won't you end up with another belief: that all those claims must have been false? Or the belief you know exactly where they were talking about when reading words like 'peace', 'dukkha' or 'craving'. Nox, how did you exactly interpret terms like 'cessation of suffering' when just being born and scheduled to die is already introducing dukkha, according to the same books?

The fault is with the individual and not the system.
It’s my fault that I’m frustrated because the claims that these full-of-shit Gurus make, are misleading. I reject that whole-heartedly!

You own your own frustration, you cannot dispute that. At the very least you bought it for a while, you naive believer!

Again, the proverbial carrot is dangled in front of the disgruntled seeker, with the intent of perpetuating false hope in a mythological fable.

Maybe the seeker is just not disgruntled enough yet to see how utterly false that hope has been and where it was based on. It's just a matter of not doing things half-way, including any disgruntle, despair or hopelessness.

[N0X23]

sschaula

You know, the story of the Buddhas was that he actually didn't believe enlightenment existed either. He tried and tried to find a way to avoid death, by doing yogic poses, fasting, saying mantras, covering himself with ashes, meditating. None of it worked for him.

From what I’ve read there isn’t a trace of historical fact that shows that the Shakyamuni clan actually existed. More than likely it’s the same as the Christians Jesus, being derived from Babylonian and Sumerian messianic prophet mythologies. And if that being the case this...
“Then he became enlightened”...is rendered worthless.


Quinn

The trouble is, Nox, reaching this conclusion has constituted an act of blind faith on your part.

You could not be further from the truth with this ignorant statement.
I am incapable of Faith.
That is why I, i-n-v-e-s-t-i-g-a-t-e-d the claims of Enlightenment and my conclusions are based on experimentation, experience and logic.

You don't really have any reasons to reach such a conclusion, other than being swayed by the evidence of your own personal failure.

But I didn’t fail. I succeed in proving that Enlightenment is invalid.

The logic is: "I have not reached enlightenment, therefore there is no enlightenment."

That is your claim. I never said or implied any such thing. As a matter of fact, by definition, I am Enlightened. But such erroneous claims, lets use Kevin’s’s chicanery for example....


Originally Posted by Parsifal
I see. And how does "seeing things as they really are" cease suffering?


Kevin wrote:
The ego is a false construction. Once things are correctly identified then all suffering that comes from the ego (eg, loneliness, boredom, jealousy, emotional hurt, fear, etc) disappear.

...are utter bullshit!
This is simply invalid in my case.
I know from my own thorough investigation into the ego, that the ego is inherently empty, not-self and/or a false construct.
I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer. It has not disappeared as this charlatan has typically declared.

I think the core of your problem is that you are still seeking an egotistical heaven from the Truth. You are still looking for a bliss that your ego can comprehend and enjoy, and of course, no such thing exists in enlightenment.

And how do you defend 3000 years of Enlightened sages claiming that it does?

Also what is it that seeks Enlightenment if not the ego?

But I am not seeking egotistical heaven from the Truth. I have found the Truth and it has done nothing for my stress bondage and suffering.
I am as miserable as I was living in ignorance.

Oh by the way David, I’ll ask you again. You wrote in response...The mind is no more a delusion than anything else is. As always, it is the false perception of mind, or indeed of anything else, which constitutes delusion.


How can there be a false perception of the mind? I cant even find the fucking thing. Can you?

[sschaula]

N0X,

If the Buddha didn't actually exist, then I suppose the story would be useless. Do you know either way? Like I said to Cory, I don't.

...the ego is inherently empty, not-self and/or a false construct.
I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer.

The ego is a false construct....yet "I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer."

Doesn't quite add up.

[David Quinn]

Nox wrote:

DQ: The trouble is, Nox, reaching this conclusion has constituted an act of blind faith on your part.

N: You could not be further from the truth with this ignorant statement. I am incapable of Faith.
That is why I, i-n-v-e-s-t-i-g-a-t-e-d the claims of Enlightenment and my conclusions are based on experimentation, experience and logic.

I'm sure they are. But have you really gone all the way with your investigation? Have you truly removed all of your delusions and mental blocks? Have you really pulled the entire ego out by the roots?

The fact that you are suffering and bitter suggests that you haven't.

DQ: You don't really have any reasons to reach such a conclusion, other than being swayed by the evidence of your own personal failure.

N: But I didn’t fail. I succeed in proving that Enlightenment is invalid.

What proof is this?

DQ: The logic is: "I have not reached enlightenment, therefore there is no enlightenment."

N: That is your claim. I never said or implied any such thing.

Your very first statement in this discussion was:

After years of intensive investigation, I am thoroughly convinced that Enlightenment is entirely, 100% ,unadulterated bullshit. Philosophical, New-Age, or otherwise. A dogmatic hang-over from the archaic past.

There is no way you could have reached this conclusion, other than via the logic I outlined above.

But such erroneous claims, lets use Kevin’s’s chicanery for example....

Parsifal: I see. And how does "seeing things as they really are" cease suffering?

Kevin: The ego is a false construction. Once things are correctly identified then all suffering that comes from the ego (eg, loneliness, boredom, jealousy, emotional hurt, fear, etc) disappear.

N: ...are utter bullshit!
This is simply invalid in my case.
I know from my own thorough investigation into the ego, that the ego is inherently empty, not-self and/or a false construct.
I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer. It has not disappeared as this charlatan has typically declared.

You may intellectually understand that the ego is empty, but it is clear that you haven't fully integrated this knowledge and wiped away the ego from every nook and cranny in your being. You are still holding back, preserving some of your ego in the process. That is why you are still suffering.

DQ: I think the core of your problem is that you are still seeking an egotistical heaven from the Truth. You are still looking for a bliss that your ego can comprehend and enjoy, and of course, no such thing exists in enlightenment.

N: And how do you defend 3000 years of Enlightened sages claiming that it does?

Who has claimed that enlightenment is a blissful heaven for the ego?

Also what is it that seeks Enlightenment if not the ego?

The ego might seek it, but it never reaches it. The ego is like a salt doll which seeks the sanctuary of the ocean.

But I am not seeking egotistical heaven from the Truth.

Your bitterness at not having found bliss and happiness in Truth suggests that you are.

At the moment, I don't see a person who calmly understands the Infinite and revels in its knowledge and freedom. I see someone who is lashing out in great pain.

Oh by the way David, I’ll ask you again. You wrote in response...The mind is no more a delusion than anything else is. As always, it is the false perception of mind, or indeed of anything else, which constitutes delusion.

How can there be a false perception of the mind? I cant even find the fucking thing. Can you?

Which kind of mind are you looking for?

-

[N0X23]

Diebert van Rhijn

Which defect? Of some product called 'enlightenment' that you plugged in the power grid and it didn't turn on for longer than a few fleeting moments?

The defect that is responsible for Enlightenment not curing what the sages claim it does.
Look, I didn’t invent fucking Enlightenment.
I turned to it when other methods have failed to alleviate my suffering and stress.
All the major proponents of Enlightenment make very definitive statements and promises, if one just perseveres. I did relentlessly, for years, just as they prescribe.
I eliminated my false perceptions of Reality.
I discovered the “Truth” under my own efforts, just like they prescribe, and nothing, I figured that it might take a while for this new knowledge to acclimate, but no, nothing, so I then re-traced my steps over and over, still searching, perhaps I missed something, nope I didn’t.
I am Enlightened and I still suffer.
The Truth is devastating, it will destroy you. It has nothing to do with the cessation of suffering as they claim.

Then again, won't you end up with another belief: that all those claims must have been false?

If I had simply theorized about their claims, then yes. But I have reached my Empirical conclusions based on first had experiences, not faith.

Nox, how did you exactly interpret terms like 'cessation of suffering' when just being born and scheduled to die is already introducing dukkha, according to the same books?

The elimination, the ending of suffering. But again, it is not my interpretation, it is theirs.

You own your own frustration, you cannot dispute that. At the very least you bought it for a while, you naive believer!

No I never believed. I am incapable of faith.

Maybe the seeker is just not disgruntled enough yet to see how utterly false that hope has been and where it was based on. It's just a matter of not doing things half-way, including any disgruntle, despair or hopelessness.

Oh of course, you're right, you're right, it must be because I didn’t try hard enough....riiiight.....

This again, is just another example of blaming the seeker for the short comings of this Spiritual fairy-tale.
This IS the bed-rock of Enlightenment!
It’s no different then the Catholics dogma of sin and shame.
Again, I reject this guilt-laden bullshit, entirely.. I will no longer fall victim to that neurotic and compulsive mentality.


sschaula

The ego is a false construct....yet "I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer."

Doesn't quite add up

.

There are two classifications of truth.
One is a mundane truth, and applies to common things that occur in our daily lives. The second is Transcendent and/or Ultimate Truth and applies to such concepts as the boundless nature of God, or the hidden Void of Totality.

“I” is simply a figure of speech.
Such as you saying “Doesn't quite add up.”, of course it doesn’t “add up”, they’re letters and words, not numbers. They will never “add up” unless we assign a numerical value to my words and that would be absolutely pointless.


Quinn

I'm sure they are. But have you really gone all the way with your investigation? Have you truly removed all of your delusions and mental blocks? Have you really pulled the entire ego out by the roots?

Yes. I am sure. No doubt remains.

The fact that you are suffering and bitter suggests that you haven't.

I am not bitter and ALL humans suffer in one form or another.
It is the very unsatisfactory impermanent nature of Life that causes misery and stress, not the ego.
The ego neither exists nor does not exist.
There is no tangible ego to be pulled up by it’s roots, that is simply conceptual bullshit.
And even if there were, any attempt to permanently eliminate the ego would stand in complete contradiction to the transitory nature of the Universe. A permanent state, in any form, is a logical fallacy, this includes Enlightenment.

What proof is this?

Empirical.

There is no way you could have reached this conclusion, other than via the logic I outlined above.

And yet, I did. Again this is your ignorance, not mine. I am, by definition, Enlightened.

You may intellectually understand that the ego is empty, but it is clear that you haven't fully integrated this knowledge and wiped away the ego from every nook and cranny in your being. You are still holding back, preserving some of your ego in the process. That is why you are still suffering.

More conceptual metaphorical bullshit!
Honestly David, are you serious?!
This is a perfect example of the metaphorical garbage that these sages expect us to swallow. And when one refuses to ingest this rancid slop, we are chastised and reprimanded, and accused of still being contaminated with this concept of an “ego”.
What other type of Understanding is there besides fucking intellectual? How else should I integrate this knowledge besides understanding it?
By putting it in my fucking pocket?
Come on, get real, David.
Again,you speak about the ego as if it were tangible, an object, something one can actually grasp and remove. As if it were dogshit on the bottom of one shoe that could actually be scrapped off, cleaned from every nook and cranny of sole of the shoe. The ego is a fucking abstraction!

Who has claimed that enlightenment is a blissful heaven for the ego?

There agin is the crux of my argument. I have “eliminated” the idea of an ego, an individual inherently existing separate from Nature. There is no longer a sufferer, but there is still suffering. Enlightenment doesn’t fucking work.

The ego might seek it, but it never reaches it. The ego is like a salt doll which seeks the sanctuary of the ocean.

The ego is like this, the ego is like that, nothing but more empty abstractions, worthless concepts. I’ve heard it all before....

Your bitterness at not having found bliss and happiness in Truth suggests that you are.

Again, I’m not bitter. I am just calling bullshit.

At the moment, I don't see a person who calmly understands the Infinite and revels in its knowledge and freedom. I see someone who is lashing out in great pain.

See that’s my point. I DO understand the Infinite, implicitly and yet I do not revel in it’s knowledge, it does not bring me, calm and freedom.
Again, you speak of calm and freedom in one breath, the very things that I am after, and yet in the preceding breath, you attempt to belittle me because I seek those qualities, you accuse me of grasping for a imaginary heaven for the ego.
You fuckers are all the same, double-talking con-men!

Which kind of mind are you looking for?

Answer the question, David.

[Ryan Rudolph]

NOX23 wrote:

I am Enlightened and I still suffer.

perhaps it works something like this, when one is alone in solitude, there is very little suffering, if there is no attachment.

However when one is surrounded by frightened, attached unstable human beings, you feel what they feel because you are in their emotional field.

so in affect, there is no complete ending of suffering, I agree. but there is an drastic decrease in self-inflicted suffering.

perhaps this is why the wise prefer to be alone, it is less painful.

[alex]

Nox23 - This is interesting! Here is my crappy advice.

What is responsible for the defect?

Enlightenment and spiritual leaps are very difficult to convey. And I don't think everyone is even talking about the same thing. The words aren't exact.

So if we call their authority into question, then everything is suspect, especially Enlightenment.
So why should I doubt some claims of the scriptures and maintain some semblance of belief in other aspects? That makes no sense.

This is surprising. How can you regard all scriptures as equally valid? Don't you discern between them?

Beginners Mind? It’s out right bullshit!
I had Beginners Mind before I started this fucking quest.

But I don't think that is what beginner's mind means.

If Beginners Mind is the answer, why in the fuck did I even need to ask the question.
I stared searching because I suffered and was bound with stress and misery. So I need to get back to where I stated? For what?! To get back what I already had? Sound like the same ol' bullshit to me.

Jed McKenna says, "No belief is true." Some Chinese guy I can't remember said to let your mind be like a pearl, rolling about on a large piece of glass.
Don't allow it to alight on anything.
Hawkins says, "Altho nonattachment may seem like a point of view, it is really not a positionality but a nonpositionality."

Try taking no position. Is that the mind you had when you started seeking?

You say you are incapable of faith. Yet I see in you a lot of emotion and a lot of belief. Emotions and beliefs are impediments in my opinion. Faith comes from experience. Not mental faith in some teaching about this or that. That's belief, largely unfounded belief. Faith is trust, and you can only trust that which you have experienced.

Spiritual progress is accompanied by joy. Suffering and frustration signal you're stuck. Try a new approach? Stop seeking happiness/enlightenment and instead try to learn how this universe works. That way you put curiosity about truth first, and take the attention off yourself.

Find ways to take attention off of yourself.

Hawkins, "The spiritual student if often seeking to transform, overcome, or slay the ego when all that is necessary is to simply abandon it. This requires the development of trust, faith, and confidence in the Reality of God."

Why do you say that you are enlightened by definition?

..are utter bullshit!
This is simply invalid in my case.
I know from my own thorough investigation into the ego, that the ego is inherently empty, not-self and/or a false construct.
I have correctly identified all suffering that comes from the ego and I still suffer. It has not disappeared as this charlatan has typically declared.

Who is it then, that suffers?

How can it be that you don't exist but want to experience bliss?

Also what is it that seeks Enlightenment if not the ego? [/quote]That's why I think the best bet is to try to remove concepts and positionalities, don't focus on emotion, especially negative emotion. These constrict and you want to expand. Focus your attention and inquiry on Reality, God, the Unvierse, Tao or whatever you like to call it.
I think that most spiritual concepts are all but impossible to convey. I don't accept that the ego is entirely a mirage, but that it is constricted by fears and ideas. The constriction causes the suffering, and the narrow identification is what is false.

The Truth is devastating, it will destroy you.

What truth is that?

Oh of course, you're right, you're right, it must be because I didn’t try hard enough....riiiight.....

Maybe you tried too hard.

It is the very unsatisfactory impermanent nature of Life that causes misery and stress, not the ego.

I can agree to the extent that fear is the cause. In my opinion, there can be no relaxation, calm and freedom until we know ourselves to be immortal.

[Pye]

*

To add to the pile: I don't know, NOX, but if I were so very consciously suffering over the suffering of some fucking bullshit ideology that shackles and cons human being, I think I'd be expending my best outrage and invective toward the archaic and brutal mentality of fundamentalist Islam; or the psychic violence to self and others of fundamentalist Christianity; or the giant human reaper of Capitalism . . . . stuff like that. Whether you can find it, or lose it, or raise it, you will still be using this mind.

.

[David Quinn]

Nox wrote:

DQ: I'm sure they are. But have you really gone all the way with your investigation? Have you truly removed all of your delusions and mental blocks? Have you really pulled the entire ego out by the roots?

N: Yes. I am sure. No doubt remains.

You are deceiving yourself.

DQ: The fact that you are suffering and bitter suggests that you haven't.

N: I am not bitter and ALL humans suffer in one form or another. It is the very unsatisfactory impermanent nature of Life that causes misery and stress, not the ego.

It is a combination of the two. Impermanence can only cause suffering when a person is attached to things. When a particular thing he is attached to disappears, he experiences loss, which is the cornerstone of all suffering. This is egotism.

By contrast, for a person who is completely without ego - i.e. who is completely free of all attachments - impermanence cannot take anything away from him, and thus he can never experience loss or suffering.

The fact that you are still suffering demonstrates that you are still attached to things and thus still dwelling in egotism.

The ego neither exists nor does not exist.
There is no tangible ego to be pulled up by it’s roots, that is simply conceptual bullshit.

Your attachments are very real, and the suffering they are creating is also very real.

And even if there were, any attempt to permanently eliminate the ego would stand in complete contradiction to the transitory nature of the Universe. A permanent state, in any form, is a logical fallacy, this includes Enlightenment.

The mode of complete non-attachment is a permanent, static state which is perfectly consistent with the flowing, everchanging nature of the Universe. The unattached person is fully immersed in the flow of Nature, yet always remains unattached.

DQ: You don't really have any reasons to reach such a conclusion, other than being swayed by the evidence of your own personal failure.

N: But I didn’t fail. I succeed in proving that Enlightenment is invalid.

DQ: What proof is this?

N: Empirical.

The empirical evidence of your own failure doesn't constitute proof. You need to come up with something a bit more objective.

For example, you would have to demonstrate that nobody in the entire history of the Universe has ever reached enlightenment and transcended suffering. Simply extrapolating from your own case isn't good enough.

DQ: You may intellectually understand that the ego is empty, but it is clear that you haven't fully integrated this knowledge and wiped away the ego from every nook and cranny in your being. You are still holding back, preserving some of your ego in the process. That is why you are still suffering.

N: More conceptual metaphorical bullshit!
Honestly David, are you serious?!
This is a perfect example of the metaphorical garbage that these sages expect us to swallow. And when one refuses to ingest this rancid slop, we are chastised and reprimanded, and accused of still being contaminated with this concept of an “ego”.

I am serious. This is a very important point. You're like a person who has studied musical theory and mastered the terminology, yet can still only play chopsticks on the piano. Your knowledge is still largely in the theoretical stage; it hasn't yet bedded down and transformed you inside and out.

The path to perfection is essentially twofold: (1) the intellectual path to enlightenment, and (2) the perfecting of one's entire being in the light of this enlightenment. You have, at best, only achieved the first part (although I dispute even this, as I think your understanding is still lacking). This first part is only the very first step of the way. The next step is to begin reprogramming one's brain, so to speak, and use the knowledge of enlightenment to wipe away all the pathways which generate deluded behaviour. You haven't yet done this.

One gets the impression that you have a lot of unresolved issues inside you which stem from a past hurt - possibly a childhood trauma. One also gets the impression that you have been trying to seek enlightenment as a means of escaping the effects of this trauma, as a substitute for facing this hurt more directly via psychotherapy. What often happens in these situations is that the person's intellectual understanding of Reality, while very good, hasn't really penetrated to the depths of their psyche. So while their consciousness might be aware of the Truth to some degree, the deeper part of their psyche still knows nothing about it. The false pathways in the brain caused by the trauma haven't yet been eliminated by their enlightened knowledge. And so they continue to suffer.

What other type of Understanding is there besides fucking intellectual? How else should I integrate this knowledge besides understanding it?
By putting it in my fucking pocket?
Come on, get real, David.
Again,you speak about the ego as if it were tangible, an object, something one can actually grasp and remove. As if it were dogshit on the bottom of one shoe that could actually be scrapped off, cleaned from every nook and cranny of sole of the shoe. The ego is a fucking abstraction!

Think of the ego as a false network of neuronal pathways in the brain which causes a person to behave deludedly, and you will see that it is indeed tangible and real.

Your attempts to reduce the ego down to utter insignificance ("just an abstraction") would suggest that a big part of you is trying not to attend to the hurt inside you. In effect, you are having a tantrum because you were hoping for a quick easy fix through "enlightenment". Now that you see that it doesn't work like that, you are having a spaz attack, in which you are blaming everyone else except yourself.

DQ: Who has claimed that enlightenment is a blissful heaven for the ego?

N: There agin is the crux of my argument. I have “eliminated” the idea of an ego, an individual inherently existing separate from Nature.

Eliminating the "idea" of the ego is not enough. You are like a cancer sufferer who has tried to cure his cancer by seeing that it lacks inherent existence. What did you expect? That the cancer would magically disappear?

N: Oh by the way David, I’ll ask you again. You wrote in response...The mind is no more a delusion than anything else is. As always, it is the false perception of mind, or indeed of anything else, which constitutes delusion.

How can there be a false perception of the mind? I cant even find the fucking thing. Can you?

DQ: Which kind of mind are you looking for?

N: Answer the question, David.

The question needs clarifying. The "mind" can mean different things to different people. What do you mean by it?


-

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Look, I didn’t invent fucking Enlightenment.

Basically that's exactly what I think serious thinkers should do: invent it, derive it, conclude it for yourself. Not copying meaning over from somewhere or someone else. It's hard to avoid being influenced by what one hears, sees or is shown through our lives by others. But that's what it's all about: getting rid of all that. If there's any 'absolute' truth anywhere it will stick out, unavoidable and untainted by anyone else.

I turned to it when other methods have failed to alleviate my suffering and stress.

Only self-knowledge or professional help might tell you why you are stressed or in pain. With that knowledge you can find out how to alleviate it as far as possible. But enlightenment I'd regard as something different altogether even though it leads through self-knowledge.

I eliminated my false perceptions of Reality.
I discovered the “Truth” under my own efforts, just like they prescribe, and nothing, I figured that it might take a while for this new knowledge to acclimate, but no, nothing, so I then re-traced my steps over and over, still searching, perhaps I missed something, nope I didn’t.
I am Enlightened and I still suffer.

So we have a simple choice here: or Enlightenment is bullshit, or your claim of being enlightened is bullshit and in error. The first possibility I think is impossible to prove but the second shouldn't be too hard to test with some cold hard reasoning.

The Truth is devastating, it will destroy you. It has nothing to do with the cessation of suffering as they claim.

If you would be really destroyed how can there be suffering that involves you? Which value or moral system is there in place to make this specific distinction between wanted and unwanted events?

Nox, how did you exactly interpret terms like 'cessation of suffering' when just being born and scheduled to die is already introducing dukkha, according to the same books?

The elimination, the ending of suffering. But again, it is not my interpretation, it is theirs.

But if their interpretation is that being born, having a decaying body is already a part of the suffering or frustrations (dukkha dukkha), how could you ever escape it? You are still alive and are just suffering according to their definition of what it is that suffers. Where is the contradiction?

No I never believed. I am incapable of faith.

I don't believe that. Humans operate by means of it all the time. Trust, loyalty, principles, unproven assumptions ... did you manage to function without those?

Oh of course, you're right, you're right, it must be because I didn’t try hard enough....riiiight.....

No, what I said is that you seem too naive about yourself, still a believer of some sorts. Not because you didn't find enlightenment, but because of your reasoning right here and now. This is not about blaming anyone, it's about trying to make proper judgements.

[Beingof1]

Nox,
I think you know after our last meeting at the other forum I am the real deal. I say this so as to build your faith in what I am going to say to you.

I do not want your money, devotion, or admiration. I want you to find release, that is my hearts desire concerning you sir. There is innocence, purity, and light inside of you. You are the answer and not me.

Your pain is very deep and its like being in a black cloud. It is almost stifling and has a choking sensation. It seems like no one cares at all.
Here comes the light bro.

Acknowledge the pain caused by the perpetrators of abuse - and there are more than one I know, from your childhood through maturity.

Refuse revenge and any thought of inflicting harm as repayment.

Pray or wish good will to the person who hurt you. When you are ready send compassion to the offender.

This releases you from the addictive vampire bite so to speak.

It would be overwhelming to forgive everyone all at once. Resolve in your mind to forgive not one person, but one injury of cruelty or lack of caring. Stick to one until you are released from its snare.

Every day resolve to forgive yourself of one memory that you feel guilt, shame, or remorse to.

When you forgive you will experience a release and a sensation of freedom mixed with joy. An experience of peace and comfort.

This is enlightenment in small doses if you will.

You have a very keen intellect and are more observent then almost anyone around you. You are skillfull in body language and reading between the lines of chit chat.

The reason is you have been seeking a reason to care about other human beings. It was your heart trying to find value in the thing you despised. Don`t forgive because they deserve it.

Forgive so you can experience wholeness and you will find the value you so desperatly looked for in your self.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

When you forgive you will experience a release and a sensation of freedom mixed with joy. An experience of peace and comfort.

Forgive so you can experience wholeness and you will find the value you so desperatly looked for in your self.

Of course it's inevitable that whenever a junkie appears to rear its head, some dealer comes along to push her junk.

This is a fine demonstration of the defect that NOX23 claims to have witnessed in the 'enlightenment industry' since the first sage speaking out. It's an unavoidable side-effect that has to be seen for what it is. The greatest fires produce the most suffocating smoke; the brightest lights throw the largest shadows.

[Cory Duchesne]

Being of 1 wrote:

Acknowledge the pain caused by the perpetrators of abuse - and there are more than one I know, from your childhood through maturity.

Beingof1, It is suspicious of you that you don't address the common problem of human beings suffering simply for their own misdeeds. You speak as if you assume each person is suffering because of what 'other' people did. It's our own misdeeds that bring us the most suffering. Things that happen against us arent nearly as bad as our own ignorant decisions.

Do I solve this problem of suffering by forgiving myself and others? I say no, that is a crock.

If you truly understand, then you see that there is no self to forgive, you see that there was no one there making choices to begin with. To forgive someone for being something that they had no choice to be is silly. Forgiving yourself for being something you had no choice to be is equally silly. Suffering can only be resolved by seeing the non-existence of self. To understand is to bring an end to the illusion of the forgiver and forgiven. In my experience, people that preach forgiveness are arrogant, self-righteous, pretenders. They are peddling a petty game.

[sschaula]

The tallest statue falls the hardest.

[Cory Duchesne]

Sschaula wrote:

The tallest statue falls the hardest.

Yes, of course. There is simply 'the way it is', or better, simply 'the way' To understand 'the way', is to see forgiveness as an absurdity.

How could things be other than they way they are? They cant be. To forgive something or someone for being what it, he, or she has no choice to be is too silly.

[Beingof1]

Diebert van Rhijn:

This is a fine demonstration of the defect that NOX23 claims to have witnessed in the 'enlightenment industry' since the first sage speaking out. It's an unavoidable side-effect that has to be seen for what it is. The greatest fires produce the most suffocating smoke; the brightest lights throw the largest shadows.

Lets see what is not so we can not see at all?
If there is light best to ignore it?

Its easier to believe the no-self and therefore 'nothing' ever really happened. That is until this pesky thing called memory kicks in - but we can deny that to, and drift away into a world we can create in our minds.

Only self-knowledge or professional help might tell you why you are stressed or in pain. With that knowledge you can find out how to alleviate it as far as possible. But enlightenment I'd regard as something different altogether even though it leads through self-knowledge.

What is self-knowledge? What will you find in seeking?

No, what I said is that you seem too naive about yourself, still a believer of some sorts. Not because you didn't find enlightenment, but because of your reasoning right here and now. This is not about blaming anyone, it's about trying to make proper judgements.

What 'proper' judgment? Judgment concerning what?


Cory Patrick:

Beingof1, It is suspicious of you that you don't address the common problem of human beings suffering simply for their own misdeeds. You speak as if you assume each person is suffering because of what 'other' people did. It's our own misdeeds that bring us the most suffering. Things that happen against us arent nearly as bad as our own ignorant decisions.

Read my post agin - then tell me if you still see this.

Do I solve this problem of suffering by forgiving myself and others? I say no, that is a crock.

Then why did you say just above that I spoke only of 'others'?
What are you defending? - hmmm

Right; we pretend it never happened, that way we can stuff it down so deep it will never resurface as the direct memory, but as another 'problem' such as anger and resentment.

If you truly understand, then you see that there is no self to forgive, you see that there was no one there making choices to begin with.

Do we escape by believing our pain is not really there?

Do you look both ways before crossing the street?
If so - why?

Suffering can only be resolved by seeing the non-existence of self. To understand is to bring an end to the illusion of the forgiver and forgiven.

Yup - thats what I said alright.

In my experience, people that preach forgiveness are arrogant, self-righteous, pretenders. They are peddling a petty game.

Of course - its easier to avoid the real solution and pretend to be whole through platitudes.

Rather than diving in and deciding to eliminate suffering, we should just ignore it instead and grip our pain till denial kicks in?

Forgiveness is the 'hard' work that most everyone wants to avoid. Its easier to stick one`s head in the sand and pretend like nothing ever happened.

How could things be other than they way they are? They cant be. To forgive something or someone for being what it, he, or she has no choice to be is too silly.

And to deny your own experience is the problem with the human race.
Everyone does that - they avoid the 'pain' through denial.

sschaula:

The tallest statue falls the hardest.

That helped bring understanding and wholeness.


Ah - why is he back? Is he unstable?

[N0X23]

cosmic_prostitute

perhaps this is why the wise prefer to be alone, it is less painful.

I’m quite sure you don’t need to be Enlightened to live in the peace born of seclusion. I need a solution that will work for a real person, functioning in the real world, not this mental masturbation for some introvert living on a mountain.

alex

This is surprising. How can you regard all scriptures as equally valid? Don't you discern between them?

I don’t care about the source of the scripture, if it helps me, so be it. I’m not looking for a Religion.

Jed McKenna says, "No belief is true."

So Jed’s belief that “no belief is true”, is itself true?

Paradoxical double-speak, meant to confound and impress the gullible seeker.
No thanks, Alex.

Who is it then, that suffers?

There is no “who”. There is no perceiver, just the act of perception.

What truth is that?

That ALL things lack inherent existence.

Pye

To add to the pile: I don't know, NOX, but if I were so very consciously suffering over the suffering of some fucking bullshit ideology that shackles and cons human being, I think I'd be expending my best outrage and invective toward the archaic and brutal mentality of fundamentalist Islam; or the psychic violence to self and others of fundamentalist Christianity; or the giant human reaper of Capitalism . . . . stuff like that. Whether you can find it, or lose it, or raise it, you will still be using this mind.

The very idea of Enlightenment is just as psychological and physically violent and brutal as any of the other dogmatic absurdity of volitionally perfecting the imperfect. It’s literally war against ones sense of self and everything that arises dependent on this ignorant perception.
There is nothing calm, reassuring or peaceful about Enlightenment, nothing.


DavidQuinn

You are deceiving yourself.

Right, right, of course I am.
How exactly am I deceiving myself and who is it that is being deceived?

And how is it that I am deceiving myself, and yet your Empirical assessment of your state is 100% accurate? What makes you so fucking special, David?!

The fact that you are still suffering demonstrates that you are still attached to things and thus still dwelling in egotism.

ALL humans suffer. The Buddha suffered from crippling migraines and look at how Unenlightened the Son of God acted when he was hanging on the cross.
There is no sufferer, just the act of suffering. Enlightenment does not cure anguish and stress. It is simply an allegorical teaching of social constructs and mythological morality. Just like any other Religion.

Your attachments are very real, and the suffering they are creating is also very real.

How can the real come from the illsorary?
And if they are real, as you are implying, then they have independently arises thru their own accord, and this being the case, they can not be annihilated. This only strengthens my declaration that Enlightenment can NOT cure these human ailments.

The mode of complete non-attachment is a permanent, static state which is perfectly consistent with the flowing, everchanging nature of the Universe. The unattached person is fully immersed in the flow of Nature, yet always remains unattached.

Non-attachment is dependent on attachment, it is dependently caused, it is therefore impermanent and unsatisfactory, which results in the perpetuation of human suffering. That which is dependent and intrinsically empty is not permanent.

The empirical evidence of your own failure doesn't constitute proof. You need to come up with something a bit more objective.

Again I did not fail, that is your ignorance, not mine.

For example, you would have to demonstrate that nobody in the entire history of the Universe has ever reached enlightenment and transcended suffering. Simply extrapolating from your own case isn't good enough.

I have to do NO such thing. Those are your requirements, not mine, they are entirely irrelevant to me. All that matters is what I can prove too myself, that’s it.

I am serious. This is a very important point. You're like a person who has studied musical theory and mastered the terminology, yet can still only play chopsticks on the piano. Your knowledge is still largely in the theoretical stage; it hasn't yet bedded down and transformed you inside and out.

Ass-backwards bullshit.
I did graduate from the theoretical and applied Enlightenment to a real world situation and it failed, fucking miserably.

One gets the impression that you have a lot of unresolved issues inside you which stem from a past hurt - possibly a childhood trauma.

Well according to Eastern thought the causes of our unresolved issues are as infinite as the Universe itself. But no, my childhood, was pretty uneventful. Nothing out of the ordinary, at all.

One also gets the impression that you have been trying to seek enlightenment as a means of escaping the effects of this trauma, as a substitute for facing this hurt more directly via psychotherapy.

I have delved into the depths of my psyche I am not running from any of my demons. I attack them head-on.

I like how you recommend psychotherapy though.
You are only strengthening the fact that Enlightenment does not cure the mental anguish that the sages claim it does.
See?
You know as well as I do that the claims of Enlightenment are utter bullshit!

So while their consciousness might be aware of the Truth to some degree, the deeper part of their psyche still knows nothing about it.

So the deep part of the psyche are separate from consciousness?

Think of the ego as a false network of neuronal pathways in the brain which causes a person to behave deludedly, and you will see that it is indeed tangible and real.

Bullshit! The ego is real and tangible, riiiight. And you can also shake hands with your shadow...

Your attempts to reduce the ego down to utter insignificance ("just an abstraction") would suggest that a big part of you is trying not to attend to the hurt inside you. In effect, you are having a tantrum because you were hoping for a quick easy fix through "enlightenment".

No, I have already tried the quick fixes and I know for a fact that they do not work. I knew Enlightenment would be the most difficult thing that I have tried to date.
I did at first try to reduce my ego thru suppression.
I then tried to eliminate the ego through, oppression
I then tried to resolve the ego thru contemplation an concentration, nothing.

That is all that I am doing is attending to the hurt inside of me, your interpretation of my situation is fucking waaay of base, on almost every single count. So much for seeing all things accurately and truthfully thru the logical perfection of your Enlightenment, David.

Now that you see that it doesn't work like that, you are having a spaz attack, in which you are blaming everyone else except yourself.

And yet another ignorant and inaccurate accusation.
I am doing nothing of the sort. Again, I am calling these shit-talking sages on their lies.

Eliminating the "idea" of the ego is not enough. You are like a cancer sufferer who has tried to cure his cancer by seeing that it lacks inherent existence. What did you expect? That the cancer would magically disappear?

The ego is nothing like a mass of flesh, or rouge cancer cells, nothing.
The ego is a mental phenomenon, a though induced construct.
You can not hold a thought in your hands.
You can hold a tumor, though.
And as far a comparable success rates go, Enlightenment is a fucking joke compared to real world techniques, like chemotherapy and neurosurgery. Once again nothing but hollow metaphors that don’t do shit for actual problems in real life.
At least if I had cancer I could do something that might actually give some realistic results. And not this Enlightenment bullshit.

[sschaula]

I think it's great that enlightenment is in question. I don't personally know if it exists or not. I can only guess...so basically it may as well be non existant to me. I'm very glad that N0X has stirred things up in this way.

The only thing I have a problem with is when he's typing emotionally (in anger or rage) and he says stupid things like this:

How exactly am I deceiving myself and who is it that is being deceived?

Anyone can see he's can't grasp the ego. It grows so big that it seems impossible to pop it, and it becomes so small that you can't even find it in order to pop it. These kinds of statements of his are the only problem I have with him. If he'd start using logic in the midst of this chaotic topic, he wouldn't contradict himself so much. If someone thinks they're in suffering, of course they're still in delusion. It's just good to question every belief. Here at Genius, there's the belief enlightenment exists....supreme enlightenment which blows your mind. Yeah, I've never seen it. May as well not pine for such a thing. It's like wishing I could keep a unicorn in my garage. For one, unicorns don't exist. Also.....I don't have a garage! I live in an apartment.

Basically, N0X's honesty or role playing (whichever one it is) is a good thing for this forum.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The tallest statue falls the hardest.

And the driest retorts are the funniest :)

I can only guess...so basically it may as well be non existant to me.

There's logic in that. But when viewing human nature you can also see that if there would be no great prize for the ego involved, generally he won't risk running such a dangerous all-or-nothing race at all. And in this case knowing the exact nature of the prize is the ultimate prize. Only few start the race knowing that though but then again, how many actually finish it?

Basically, N0X's honesty or role playing (whichever one it is) is a good thing for this forum.

I just wish that whatever the game is, some better rationalities would be used. It's now so easy to dismiss the whole thing based on serious leaps in logic that indicate strong emotions or attachments taking hold.