Is Choice an Illusion?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Quinn wrote:

Logic can be used in other ways too. For example, it can be used to clear away what we are not, leaving exposed our true nature

I don’t need systematic logic to see what I’m not. Whole Observation is the only tool necessary there. And I need symbols to communicate that observation if I wish to tell someone, and I need to be able to arrange those symbols in a manner that makes sense, so the intellect is necessary. However observation is primary.

For instance: I observe that I'm attached to the sexual experience because I feel anxiety when the experience is gone, so I deprive myself of the sexual experience until the anxiety subsides.

So one needs to be able to observe the relationship between things, which only requires clear observation.

Moreover one also needs a subtle understanding of the english language to be aware of phenomena that are occuring. One is only able to observe something if the language is understood first, so language is vitally important for clear observation or insight to occur.

Quinn wrote:

It is an illusion borne out of the reawakening of infant consciousness.

I don’t know about your infant consciousness, but what I do know is the intellect itself is limited because thought is limited, and because logic is used by thought, it is also limited. Thought is not the instrument to touch god, that is the only point I’m trying to make.

Quinn wrote:

The path to enlightenment also leads us away from the rigid structures of adult-consciousness, but in the opposite direction to infant consciousness. One transcends adult-consciousness through heightened rationality and clarity of insight, rather than through trying to put an end to one's higher faculties and resting in an animal-type consciousness

I don’t see adult, infant, uncle, aunt or any sort of animal consciousness there. What is see is that humans are either deluded or they have a clear mind. There’s no layers, levels, ladders to climb, or any of that.

You either believe that the intellect/thought can show you the nature of reality or you don’t.

And you've either conditioned culturally, or conditioned by pleasurable things or your not.

Its fairly black and white.

Quinn wrote:

And yet, my own knowing, borne out of intellectual activity, is limitless

I don’t understand this limitless of knowing, what are you limitless in knowing?

Quinn wrote:

If I were to define a spaceship as a children's tricycle, then I would naturally reach the conclusioin, using logic, that space ships can never fly up into outer space.

Again this example can be resolved using whole observation. I'm able to understand the essence of the spaceship without logic. If I watch the discovery channel, I will quickly learn that a spaceship is able to fly into space because I observe the function it serves by watching it fly into space. Notice no logic there. Only observation.

[Beingof1]

DavidQuinn000:

What logic can do is take us to the very brink of Truth, from which we can make the leap of faith. Only in that sense is the Truth beyond logic.

Or rather, logic can take us to the threshold of Truth and then it can reveal that the threshold is not really there, which results in enlightenment. So really, even the leap of faith involves an act of logic.

This thought stimulated my own.
Gratitude.


cosmic_prostitute:

And I need symbols to communicate that observation if I wish to tell someone, and I need to be able to arrange those symbols in a manner that makes sense, so the intellect is necessary. However observation is primary.

I agree that observation is primary and I think you make a very good observation of that experience ;).

Does the intellect serve any other purpose other than communication with others?
[/quote]

[David Quinn]

cosmic_prostitute wrote:

DQ: Logic can be used in other ways too. For example, it can be used to clear away what we are not, leaving exposed our true nature

cp: I don’t need logic to see what I’m not. Observation is the only tool necessary there. And I need symbols to communicate that observation if I wish to tell someone, and I need to be able to arrange those symbols in a manner that makes sense, so the intellect is necessary. However observation is primary.

That is only true for those whose minds are free of attachments, fears and mental blocks. Short of this, one's observations will be distorted.

For instance: I observe that I'm attached to the sexual experience because I feel anxiety when the experience is gone, so I deprive myself of the sexual experience until the anxiety subsides.

So one needs to be able to observe the relationship between things, which only requires clear observation.

How do you know that the anxiety is linked to the sexual experience? It could be linked to something else, to something only peripherally associated with the sexual experience. For example, it could be linked to a subconscious desire for social status, or a desire for your mother's approval, or a desire to repeatedly smell a particular kind of pheronome.

Simple observation is not enough. It needs to be infused with intelligence and logical activity.

Moreover one also needs a subtle understanding of the english language to be aware of phenomena that are occuring. One is only able to observe something if the language is understood first, so language is vitally important for clear observation or insight to occur.

What do you mean? You seem to be stating a case for logic here.

DQ: It is an illusion borne out of the reawakening of infant consciousness.

cp: I don’t know about your infant consciousness, but what I do know is the intellect itself is limited because thought is limited, and because logic is used by thought, it is also limited. Thought is not the instrument to touch god, that is the only point I’m trying to make.

How do you know that thought cannot touch God? By what means have you arrived at this conclusion?

DQ: The path to enlightenment also leads us away from the rigid structures of adult-consciousness, but in the opposite direction to infant consciousness. One transcends adult-consciousness through heightened rationality and clarity of insight, rather than through trying to put an end to one's higher faculties and resting in an animal-type consciousness

cp: I don’t see adult, infant, uncle, aunt or any sort of animal consciousness there. What is see is that humans are either deluded or they have a clear mind. There’s no layers, levels, ladders to climb, or any of that.

The fact still remains that any attempt to disable the intellect and undermine the higher faculties will only result in the mind degenerating into a more primitive type of consciousness. The mind will, to some extent, slide back towards infancy, the animal kingdom and the Great Unconscious.

You either believe that the intellect/thought can show you the nature of reality or you don’t.

And you've either conditioned culturally, or conditioned by pleasurable things or your not.

I already know, through my own wisdom and experience, that thought can reveal the nature of reality to the human mind. And what's more, I already know that there is no other way it can be revealed.

DQ: And yet, my own knowing, borne out of intellectual activity, is limitless

cp: I don’t understand this limitless of knowing, what are you limitless in knowing?

The fundamental essence of all things. The nature of God, which is the same everywhere.


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[Pye]

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Choice is too often, and mistakenly, confused with "free will." This is where many determinists and causalists err. From their position, choice cannot exist because it cannot be a free choice, or, an inherent one if you prefer. If it is not free, then it is not choosing, so the thinking goes.

Choice is most definitely a real and living phenomenon for the human being. That all choices are conditioned, or, determined does not take the existence of such a phenomenon away, anymore than breathing would be negated for its conditioned or determined appearance. Humans exercise choice as (un)freely as they breathe. It is most assuredly conditioned, caused, determined, whatever, but it is real, in the sense contained above.

What is often left out of the mix is an understanding of awareness. When one is all-up about their caused condition, one often forgets that awareness is also a cause of many things. Whether this awareness is caused by a person or thought or condition outside of us, or one mutating, combining, developing within, awareness has all the power to inform and direct our choices. In this sense, we are not flotsam and jetsome pushed around by evolution or the hands of god, sitting ducks waiting for divine intervention to help our consciousness-raising along. Awareness is consciousness-raising. It does not matter that you will always make the only choice you can in any given situation, based on one's point of awareness (or lack thereof) each time. Awareness is a replicating cause, and in this, the greatest possible condition and conditioning for a human being. The only open-ended one.

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