Some people

[Pottovski]

Some people fear to live and some people fear to die...
Don't you think they fear the same?

Isn't it fear of some kind of uncertan facts or possibilities?
Or do I mis something here?

[Cory Duchesne]

I don't know about 'uncertain' facts. But surely it is 'fact' that people fear most.

Is 'Uncertainty' a fact? I think people fear uncertainty more than anything. I am quite certain that how life will unfold is uncertain.

Most people are fools, and fools 'like' ideology, ideologies are used to escape the fact of uncertainty.

It's not easy to differentiate between fact and idea.

As for possibilites - -yes, I think people fear what is possible as well. They use unfactual ideology to protect themselves from what might be possible.

Athiests use their fancied ideology to protect themselves from the possiblity of life after death.

Religious people use their fancied ideology to protect themselves from the possibility of oblivion at death.

[outofthebox]

It isn't the livin or the dyin. It's the fear. I've learned to live fearlessly. Wasn't easy, it was forced upon me. No thing is better than fearlessness. Nothing.
A federal judge saw that in me and said that my absence of fear has created an excess of temerity in me. I told him it was temerity with discretion, so he had nothing to fear. I thought i saw a smile cross his face. Could of been gas though; he seemed to be full of hot air. I should repent of that last comment because he did throw out my federal conviction and dismiss the charge. They were false charges. I was looking at 12 years. Thge jury said guilty and I walked out of the court a free man. The local headline said that the judge "tossed my conviction in the trash can." A couple congressmen worked night and day to railroad me and I just walked. Fear was definitely knockin on the door when that jury said "guilty".

[Creative Fossil]

Fear is 100% necessary for our survival, with no fear we'd be wreckless and we'd risk death in being so.

[Pottovski]

Creative Fossil, I think you mix fear with adrenaline.. We need indeed some kind of fear to survive, but there is a difference between fear and fear..

Fear that gives you adrenaline is good, but fear that makes you shiver and make you lame.. I don't think that's necessary for our survival...

I think that on the moment you manage to understand your fear, it can be used well... and if you don't you're life will not improve.

[David Quinn]

A person who lives fearlessly is either a fully-enlightened Buddha, or dead.

-

[David Quinn]

Cory wrote:

Is 'Uncertainty' a fact? I think people fear uncertainty more than anything. I am quite certain that how life will unfold is uncertain.

Most people are fools, and fools 'like' ideology, ideologies are used to escape the fact of uncertainty.

One of the worst ideologies in the world is the firmly-held belief that "everything is uncertain". It springs from an even greater fear that people have - namely, a fear of mental clarity, of genuine knowledge, of truth.

Most people would far rather live in uncertainty than be aware of truth. Uncertainty is enjoyable to the ego. It makes life seem mysterious and exciting. It encourages people to want to comfort each other in the face of it, thereby facillitating a life of endless partying. It gives people an escape route from shouldering ethical responsibilities and moral demands. It provides an easy "anwer" for lazy people who lack the desire and courage to engage in thought.

It is no wonder, then, that the belief in uncertainty is one of the most popular mythologies of our times.

Once a person slides into the comfortable belief that "everything is uncertain" it is very difficult to pry him loose again. He is simply too comfortable in it, too certain of its "rightness", too much in love with the fact that he no longer has to think. Whenever I see this, I think: "Another soul has been sucked into that yawning blackhole, never to return again! When will it ever end?"

Athiests use their fancied ideology to protect themselves from the possiblity of life after death.

Religious people use their fancied ideology to protect themselves from the possibility of oblivion at death.

These are broad generalizations, Cory. It very much depends on the intelligence and character of the person involved. Ideologies can indeed be used as fortresses to protect oneself from unpleasant truths, but they can also be used as scaffolding and ladders which lead into the Infinite. They can be used as a way of attaining real wisdom and knowledge.

Soren Kierkegaard, for example, used the New Testament intelligently as a way to climb up into the Infinite and enlightenment. There is enough wisdom in the New Testament to enable a person to do this. Kierkegaard was able to push this wisdom to such an extent that he ended up leaving Christianity far behind and formed a direct relationship with God instead.

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[propellerbeanie]

A person who lives fearlessly is either a fully-enlightened Buddha, or dead.

-

More non sense David. Bravery is the one human quality required for all endeavors, and was as essential for primitives as it is for everyone today. And we see terror stickened people in all walks of life, and all know of the panic attack. To disregard fear, as all do who are considered fearless, is common to life and not to death. If I understand Buddha at all it is to see that the disregard of fear is no licence to spread fear to others, but is rather the courage to face life and death with equanimity.

[Cory Duchesne]

David Quinn wrote

One of the worst ideologies in the world is the firmly-held belief that "everything is uncertain". It springs from an even greater fear that people have - namely, a fear of mental clarity, of genuine knowledge, of truth.

Yes, there are certain qualities and attitudes of uncertainty that are cowardly and dull. But like you said, it all comes to down to the quality and intelligence of the character.

Isn’t certainty equally as bad? Just look at Die hard religious fanatics or someone like Hitler.

I agree that people severely ‘cop-out’ of responsibility by taking the enigmatic ‘I don’t know’ position. Certainty and uncertainty, positive and negative, both serve as an escape. Besides, people who subscribe to the ‘I don’t know’ attitude, do so out of certainty. Can’t one simply be attentive, watchful, and simply deal with the facts of life as they arise, rather than build up an abstract system of thought to be certain of and hide in?

Some of the most certain people I know are also the most reprehensible and cowardly. Whereas, I certainly have met my fair share of wishy-washy, cowards who prefer to abide in a pretentious ‘unknowingness’.

One can be certain that life is determined, however, it remains uncertain as to how the future will unfold.

Uncertainty is enjoyable to the ego.

Maybe that’s why man finds gambling so enjoyable?


Oh yeah, one last thought: when one has realized with absolute certainty the truth, does risk-taking come to an end? Risk-taking implies leaping into a particular direction without being certain, does it not?

[David Quinn]

propellerbeanie wrote:

DQ: A person who lives fearlessly is either a fully-enlightened Buddha, or dead.

pb: More non sense David. Bravery is the one human quality required for all endeavors, and was as essential for primitives as it is for everyone today.

For those who are neither fully-enlightened Buddhas nor dead, that is certainly true. But a person who needs to be brave isn't leading a fearless existence. On the contrary, his bravery is an attempt to overcomes his fears.

If I understand Buddha at all it is to see that the disregard of fear is no licence to spread fear to others, but is rather the courage to face life and death with equanimity.

Well, a Buddha doesn't have any need for courage, nor does he have to make any efforts to face life and death with equanimity. This is because he is entirely without fear.

He is without fear because he no longer belives in the existence of his self. He knows that nothing can harm him, as there is no "him" to begin with.

-

[David Quinn]

Cory,

DQ: One of the worst ideologies in the world is the firmly-held belief that "everything is uncertain". It springs from an even greater fear that people have - namely, a fear of mental clarity, of genuine knowledge, of truth.

C: Yes, there are certain qualities and attitudes of uncertainty that are cowardly and dull. But like you said, it all comes to down to the quality and intelligence of the character.

Isn’t certainty equally as bad? Just look at Die hard religious fanatics or someone like Hitler.

Yes, being certain of something which isn't true is just as bad as immersing oneself in the false belief that everything is uncertain. In fact, these two are identical, since those who are certain that everything is uncertain are guilty of "being certain of something which isn't true".

The important thing is knowing how to question everything with skill and having a burning desire to get to the very root of things. That way, one can reach certainty with respect to what is absolutely true in life, while remaining uncertain about everything else.

DQ: Uncertainty is enjoyable to the ego.

C: Maybe that’s why man finds gambling so enjoyable?

That's an interesting point. People only find gambling enjoyable when they are feeling secure and certain in the rest of their lives. They are looking for a little excitement to spark up their secure, rock-solid existence.

However, if they were to become addicted to gambling and began losing heavily, it would generate wider consequences and undermine the security of the rest of their existence. The fun would be replaced by anxiety and despair.

Similarly, when those who proclaim the belief that "everything is uncertain" display their evident pleasure in such a belief - as they always do - it indicates that they are certain and secure in the rest of their psyche. In other words, it indicates that their belief in universal uncertainty is fake.

Oh yeah, one last thought: when one has realized with absolute certainty the truth, does risk-taking come to an end? Risk-taking implies leaping into a particular direction without being certain, does it not?

Realizing the absolute certainty of Truth is only the beginning. The real task is summoning up the will to give oneself entirely over to it and having one's mind, personality, and indeed one's very life, completely transformed by it. This is a huge gamble to take.

Is the Truth really worth it? Is it worth giving up everything for? If I go towards it, will I ever be able to come back? If I become increasingly more truthful, how will society treat me? Will everyone abandon me? Will I be persecuted? Will they kill me? Is the Truth really worth all that?

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[SBN Charles]

Some people fear to live and some people fear to die...
Don't you think they fear the same?

Isn't it fear of some kind of uncertan facts or possibilities?
Or do I mis something here?

How can people fear to live when life can only be comprehended by being dead, thus you cannot fear what you do not understand.

[propellerbeanie]

Some people fear to live and some people fear to die...
Don't you think they fear the same?

Isn't it fear of some kind of uncertan facts or possibilities?
Or do I mis something here?

How can people fear to live when life can only be comprehended by being dead, thus you cannot fear what you do not understand.

Which is to say that the dead can comprehend. Rather when the thing can be seen in its totality, and can be understood while alive a person -even while old and approaching an individual end, can be happy and fearless.
People can fear what they do not understand, and fear what they do understand. Sometimes people fear for good reasons or poor. It is not conditions which end fear, but that fear is overcome by courage. I know people who fear poverty, but no amount of money ends their fear. Nor do they enjoy their money. If they could only look at the poor and realize that poverty does not make them less human even while making them more animal, then they might find the courage to banish their fear.

[propellerbeanie]

propellerbeanie wrote:

DQ: A person who lives fearlessly is either a fully-enlightened Buddha, or dead.

pb: More non sense David. Bravery is the one human quality required for all endeavors, and was as essential for primitives as it is for everyone today.

For those who are neither fully-enlightened Buddhas nor dead, that is certainly true. But a person who needs to be brave isn't leading a fearless existence. On the contrary, his bravery is an attempt to overcomes his fears.

If I understand Buddha at all it is to see that the disregard of fear is no licence to spread fear to others, but is rather the courage to face life and death with equanimity.

Well, a Buddha doesn't have any need for courage, nor does he have to make any efforts to face life and death with equanimity. This is because he is entirely without fear.

He is without fear because he no longer belives in the existence of his self. He knows that nothing can harm him, as there is no "him" to begin with.

-

This reminds me of the story of Richard the lion hearted from Boswell's life of, seeing a grave stone stating that the man below never knew fear. To which Richard remarked: He must never have snuffed out a candle with his fingers.
If you know it will hurt, you fear. At its most basic that is fear. To suggest that enlightened Buddhas have no self, nor sense of pain is simple. Proving it is difficult. Who do they feed when they eat?

[Pottovski]

[/quote]
Well, a Buddha doesn't have any need for courage, nor does he have to make any efforts to face life and death with equanimity. This is because he is entirely without fear.




I don't think a Buddha is entirely without fear. I think he know his own fear and knowing this, the fear can't harm him anymore.

It looks quite simple, but it's extremely difficult to reach this stage.. I don't believe anyone can reach this stage, because we're all human of flesh and blood.. Everyone makes mistakes, no matter how much someone knows about him or herself..

Buddha's exists in the mind of others, you're a Buddha when other people say/think you are... Every person knows fear, but not everyone seems to manage there own fears. Maybe a Buddha controls it a bit better and is in that way enlightened.

[Cory Duchesne]

This reminds me of the story of Richard the lion hearted from Boswell's life of, seeing a grave stone stating that the man below never knew fear. To which Richard remarked: He must never have snuffed out a candle with his fingers.
If you know it will hurt, you fear. At its most basic that is fear. To suggest that enlightened Buddhas have no self, nor sense of pain is simple. Proving it is difficult. Who do they feed when they eat?

Avoiding the burn of fire is not fear, it is a very basic form of intelligence.

If I am walking on a path and I see a poison snake, a rattler, I avoid the rattler snake, I keep my distance. This is not fear, this is one of the most basic form of intelligence.

Have you ever heard of the Berkley student who took a huge dose of LSD to expand his consciousness and ended up jumping off the top story of a building?

He tried to expand his consciousness out of a fear of 'missing' out on 'more'. He jumped off the building because his most basic form of intelligence was impaired.

[propellerbeanie]

This reminds me of the story of Richard the lion hearted from Boswell's life of, seeing a grave stone stating that the man below never knew fear. To which Richard remarked: He must never have snuffed out a candle with his fingers.
If you know it will hurt, you fear. At its most basic that is fear. To suggest that enlightened Buddhas have no self, nor sense of pain is simple. Proving it is difficult. Who do they feed when they eat?

Avoiding the burn of fire is not fear, it is a very basic form of intelligence.

If I am walking on a path and I see a poison snake, a rattler, I avoid the rattler snake, I keep my distance. This is not fear, this is one of the most basic form of intelligence.

Is there a difference between the perception of danger, or the forsight of pain -and fear? To see danger is to feel fear, and much of our intelligence is given to rationalizing fear out of existence in the face of danger. It is natural to fear, and unnatural to reason. Children are born ready to startle, and a cool demeanor demands a cool (rational) head, or few drinks which no child yet has been born with. We are made human by the ability to control our fear, and made blind and inhuman with our ability to control all of our emotions with the same techniques used on fear.

[Cory Duchesne]

P. Beanie wrote,

Is there a difference between the perception of danger, or the foresight of pain -and fear? To see danger is to feel fear, and much of our intelligence is given to rationalizing fear out of existence in the face of danger. It is natural to fear, and unnatural to reason. Children are born ready to startle, and a cool demeanor demands a cool (rational) head, or few drinks which no child yet has been born with. We are made human by the ability to control our fear, and made blind and inhuman with our ability to control all of our emotions with the same techniques used on fear.

There is fear that is based on animal conditioning. This is good and natural. The problem begins when this healthy, natural, intelligent fear becomes absorbed and addicted to explanations (reasoning). The former is good and natural, and later is vice.

I can remember my first day at school. I cried and resisted. I didn’t understand why I was suddenly being thrown into a big building with a bunch of kids I didn’t know. I had no problems socializing when a person was introduced to me in a setting I was comfortable in. But a huge building with hundereds of kids I didn’t know? Perhaps my fear was natural, healthy, intelligent, good. My parents trying to shoo me out the door and onto the bus were acting on an explanation rooted in fear (or a fear rooted in explanations), while I was rebelling without reason or explanation. Before long I was cursing like a sailor.

Flash forward to high school: there were reasons why people were cool and un-cool. It was ‘reason’ (however feeble and irrational) that differentiated the cool from un-cool. I began smoking weed and drinking alcohol. I did so out of a fear that was generated and rooted in explanations and reasons (however irrational).

The natural fear and the unnatural are not divided. The natural fear becomes absorbed, attached and addicted to (irrational) explanations.

Realization is not an act of reason. However, by realizing, one can wield reason responsibly.

Realization erradicates the tyranny of mere explainations that ravage the intelligence of the body, and thus regenerates the natural physical sensitivity of the organism, restablishing the accuteness of a healthy natural fear which I see as the most basic form of intelligence, and perhaps the foundation of wisdom.

[David Quinn]

Pottovski wrote:

DQ: Well, a Buddha doesn't have any need for courage, nor does he have to make any efforts to face life and death with equanimity. This is because he is entirely without fear.

P: I don't think a Buddha is entirely without fear. I think he know his own fear and knowing this, the fear can't harm him anymore.

Your sights are far too low. A Buddha is definitely beyond all fear. If a person is no longer attached to anything at all, not even to his own life, then nothing can ever threaten or harm him. The world could do anything at all and it wouldn't touch him.

Just as a man with no possessions can never be robbed, owing to the fact that he posseses nothing that can be taken away from him, a Buddha can never experience injury or death. He is the ALL - so when is he ever lacking?

Buddha's exists in the mind of others, you're a Buddha when other people say/think you are...

Even if they lack the expertise to make such a judgment?

Only a person who knows what enlightenment is, and is intimately familiar with it, is capable of judging who might be a Buddha and who isn't. That normally means, of course, that the enlightened person has to judge his own claims of enlightenment, as it would be very rare for him to find someone else who can do it.

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[propellerbeanie]

So now you are enlightened. What are you to do with it, or is enlightenment only another excuse to do nothing?

[N0X23]

propellerbeanie

Bravery is the one human quality required for all endeavors.

That is, all except cowardice.

[propellerbeanie]

propellerbeanie

Bravery is the one human quality required for all endeavors.

That is, all except cowardice.

Cowardice is not an endeavor, but a condition.

Do you know that every cornerstone was once an alter covered with blood sacrificed to a god to buy with a life permission to build and establish residence. It was courge that was wanted, and courage that was bought. Even that childhood song about London bridge falling down is about the sacrifice of a fair lady who, as it turned out, may not have been fair enough. Courage is hard to come by.

[N0X23]

Cowardice is not an endeavor, but a condition.

Fear is a condition, cowardice is an act of will, intent on a particular goal, also known as an endeavor. To turn tail and run, is no different then to stand ground and do battle. Fight and flight are identical in their source, self-preservation. Courage and cowardice, are both endeavors and products of fear.

Do you know that every cornerstone was once an alter covered with blood sacrificed to a god to buy with a life permission to build and establish residence. It was courge that was wanted, and courage that was bought. Even that childhood song about London bridge falling down is about the sacrifice of a fair lady who, as it turned out, may not have been fair enough. Courage is hard to come by.

Irrelevant ,mystical mumbo-jumbo.

[propellerbeanie]

Cowardice is not an endeavor, but a condition.

Fear is a condition, cowardice is an act of will, intent on a particular goal, also known as an endeavor. To turn tail and run, is no different then to stand ground and do battle. Fight and flight are identical in their source, self-preservation. Courage and cowardice, are both endeavors and products of fear.

Oh yes, I can hear it now: I will to be a coward, My kingdom for a farce!
You sound like someone who never had to stand pat. Courage and cowardice have only the symmatry of opposites. They are human qualities, one a virtue and the other a vice, and the only quality cowardice has of the will is the lacking of it.

Do you know that every cornerstone was once an alter covered with blood sacrificed to a god to buy with a life permission to build and establish residence. It was courge that was wanted, and courage that was bought. Even that childhood song about London bridge falling down is about the sacrifice of a fair lady who, as it turned out, may not have been fair enough. Courage is hard to come by.

Irrelevant ,mystical mumbo-jumbo.

I suppose so, unless you are the baggage disposed of to ensure success. Who would do such a thing? Friends? Masters? Perhaps they want you to cry out to entertain the gods. What if they want you brave? Would you be brave having no alternative?

[N0X23]

They are human qualities, one a virtue and the other a vice, and the only quality cowardice has of the will is the lacking of it.

So cowardice is a habitual and unconscious act?