Leaving the cities and returning to nature.

[Ryan Rudolph]

If there is a religious life, is it only for the man who has a sensitivity to the nature world? Man is destroying this beautiful earth at an incredible rate. What are intelligent men like yourself to do about it? Is the most intelligent action, not participating in the vulgar inefficient movement of the city?

Specialization has amplified our collective suffering, we have lost our sense of community in the big cities as well as traded in holistic skills such as growing food, making clothes, and building simple dwelling for specialized jobs, such as call center work, which amplifies our depression, alienation, and overall hatred of life, and human kind.

These hellish jobs only exist because man feels he needs luxury, pleasure and technology. I say the hell with it all….freedom is more important than computers and cell phones….

This hatred of civilization maybe the only thing that will free us from the bonds of culture. I suspect that the religious life entails an intimate connection with nature’s gardens, but how do we leave the city? It gives us such as sense of security….

It is like asking the question, how does a domestic dog leave its master after its been pampered the years when it should have been learning how to live on its own in the wild…

We are indeed in a grim predicament, you and I….

If I had the money, I would create an intentional community of philosophers in the country, and I would live on the land with no luxury or pleasure…

But unfortunately I have entered this world poor, with no or little connections, and working in the city is necessary for my survival at this stage of life because I own no land in the country….

However this is the path that appears incredibly liberating, and these are the thoughts I entertain, although I am careful not to invest too much hope and emotion into a fantasy such as this….

But if humanity is to survive and not destroy itself, I suspect that the most intelligent men must flee the cities in search of a better way….

What do you think? Are you prepared or preparing for a similar escape from the cities?

[Eternal_Tom]

I'd like to start a colony of thinkers somewhere.


except... what if they lay around all day thinking instead of working on getting food?

[Ryan Rudolph]

haha, then we have a problem Tom...

it appears that is the tragedy of many philosophers is that they become so focused on understanding the absolute truth, that they forget to aquire some sort of practical skill to in order to survive...

I found myself in that predicament, so I studied no till farming, and off the grid living with a friend of mine, and we are now planning our grand escape to free ourselves from the nightmare known as civilization...

but currently it is just a dream, and it has no reality to it, but I am still hopeful...

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Man is destroying this beautiful earth at an incredible rate. What are intelligent men like yourself to do about it?

Understanding the why and the values you speak of. Spreading the sparks of insight gained.

freedom is more important than computers and cell phones….

What is freedom to you? Following your 'bliss'? Doing what you love?

If I had the money, I would create an intentional community of philosophers in the country, and I would live on the land with no luxury or pleasure…

Philosophers would do very bad in any community, I'm afraid. In any case, the group dynamics alone would create a mini-society or civilisation. The things you run away from will, even in a watered down bare bone form, follow the little group.

But if humanity is to survive and not destroy itself, I suspect that the most intelligent men must flee the cities in search of a better way….

I do agree that this looks like the most sane option for humanity. And also for me personally I'd prefer a less urban environment right now, a more simple lifestyle if possible. Preparations are in progress but it's like swimming against the stream since most people seem to look for more complexity and dependencies with every step.

[Ryan Rudolph]

What is freedom to you? Following your 'bliss'? Doing what you love?

The reason I attack things such as computers and cell phones is because every technology, luxury and pleasure we have in society, man must labour and toil many more hours, and do jobs he hates that destroy his mind and body...

so freedom has to do with the prevention of self-inflicting suffering

I see a complete return to the land for mankind. No till farming with no machinery, and a very simplistic lifestyle.

I grew much of my own food this summer, and the key is mulching. I only had to work an hour a week to provide quite an abundance of food. if you mulch you do not need to weed or water.

it is a "do nothing" type of farming, much like buddhism.

much of humanity labour and toil is unecessary, we create our misery because of our preferences for pleasure, luxury and technology...

For any of you that want to read a interesting article from a japanese sage natural farmer named Masanobu Fukuoka, check out this link:

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC14/Fukuoka.htm

[Kevin Solway]

The reason I attack things such as computers and cell phones is because every technology, luxury and pleasure we have in society, man must labour and toil many more hours, and do jobs he hates that destroy his mind and body...

I agree that much of the work people do is useless, yet sometimes much work is required to achieve certain things.

I am thankful for computers and the Internet, since it enables me to live in a remote area and still be able to communicate with the world.

It is also important that we soon begin colonizing space. That will require a great deal of work and money. At the moment we have all our eggs in one basket - which is not wise.

It is fortunate for the few wise people that the deluded people are doing much of the work - largely by chance.

I see a complete return to the land for mankind. No till farming with no machinery, and a very simplistic lifestyle.

I think we will have to have a drastic reduction in human population before that can happen.

it is a "do nothing" type of farming, much like buddhism.

Buddhism's not really about "doing nothing", it's about not doing anything deluded.

Even if everyone in the world became wise, we will still need to develop technology, space programs, weapons, etc.

Our world could one day come under attack, and if we want to survive we may have to fight.

[Ryan Rudolph]

drastic reduction in human population

yes, indeed. However nature has ways of balancing out imbalances. However, the intelligent must take the first steps to move away from the disorder within the inefficient cities….

It is also important that we soon begin colonizing space.

Why is colonizing space so important? I think I missed that meeting, I don’t follow

I am thankful for computers and the Internet, since it enables me to live in a remote area and still be able to communicate with the world.

The internet is debatable. It is useful, but I feel we have way too many forms of communication, and each type creates a burden on man. We should only have one type of communication.

I just wouldn’t want to be the poor chap slaving in a factory for 12 hours a day putting together electronic parts such as motherboards and processors for a computer.

Every object in society creates a burden.

Our world could one day come under attack, and if we want to survive we may have to fight.

Who will attack us besides other confused human beings?

[Kevin Solway]

It is also important that we soon begin colonizing space.

Why is colonizing space so important? I think I missed that meeting, I don’t follow

Since we have have all our eggs in one basket - namely this earth. Anything could happen to it. It could be hit by a comet, or it could develop some kind of virus which kills the whole human race, or it could simply explode for some unknown reason.

If we spread our "eggs" in different baskets we have more chance of surviving in the long-run.

Our world could one day come under attack, and if we want to survive we may have to fight.

Who will attack us besides other confused human beings?

There are probably countless other forms of life throughout the Universe. Some of them might be much more ignorant than us, while possessing superior technology. They might decide to colonize our earth, in much the same way that Europeans decided to colonize the Americas and Australia, etc.

[Ryan Rudolph]

There are probably countless other forms of life throughout the Universe. Some of them might be much more ignorant than us, while possessing superior technology. They might decide to colonize our earth, in much the same way that Europeans decided to colonize the Americas and Australia, etc.

More ignorant than us! We could be in a lot of trouble then.

Let’s look at the bright side, lets say these beings do invade us with their superior technology and their limited brains…. I suspect they would probably enslave us to do all the toil for them such as picking cotton, washing dishes, whipping their asses and what not.

So these alien creatures would have incredible leisure, and in their spare time, I suspect they would indulge in all sorts of luxury and pleasure…

However, the tragedy for these alien creatures is that their suffering would become amplified, and they would seek wisdom as a means to free themselves…

So as these alien creatures wise up, they would begin to feel pity for the enslaved humans around them. And choicelessly they would free them, and expose them to the wisdom in which they gained from their dark fall into suffering.

So in the end we would two different species on earth, which would emanate from that same intelligence….

However this would only happen if an ignorant species with superior technology are able to find their way across countless galaxies to our planet from hundreds of light years away…

The probability is fairly low. We can’t even land a man on mars. We can put a robot there, but only for a short time, after years of preparation.

If we spread our "eggs" in different baskets we have more chance of surviving in the long-run.

Lets go into this colonizing idea. There are a few obstacles. First of all the technology we have developed is not sufficient for the task. Hundreds of light years away is a long distance. I suppose a possible solution is we could order the Japanese to work much harder than they are now. Instead of 14 hours a day labour, lets push that up to 18 hours a day to expedite the rate in which technology is discovered.

I suppose the suicide rate will increase there, but we need the sacrifice right? We need to create a better life for ourselves somewhere in far off galaxy….

Another thing I considered is that If a planet is thriving with life, wouldn’t one think that by colonizing another planet, we would have to invade another species?

How would those beings feel to see a confused ignorant species like us coming with our superior technology?

They’d be afraid wouldn’t they?

[David Quinn]

Intellectual debate is a sign of immaturity. It is only a violent mind that desires to battle with people and prove himself as a sage, king, god or whatever he is trying to be…

Cosmic gossip is just as superficial as any other gossip. Playing with big words only delays a biological transformation…

Every moment you spend in intellectual debate is another moment wasted.

-

[Ryan Rudolph]

This exploration with Solway is not an intellectual debate, it is a dialogue. Let me define each one.

An intellectual debate occurs when a party engages in an argument by discussing opposing points, but there are no opposing points when discussing the absolute truth, there is only truth. Also each person usually has invested a lot of emotion into their opposing point, and they lack sensitivity of the others present awareness. This is why dialogue is so much more effective because there is concern and caution.

You just cannot storm into a message board as I did in the opening post and start hacking everyone with a dull rusty sword of truth.

Some may require gentle pokes, and others shouldn’t be poked at all in their present state.

My opening post was an overly emotional rant, which gave much gratification, but was not written out of a state of stillness.

It was written from a state, which was aggrieved by the word genius, only because I had been pulled from an unknowing state into a self conscious state, which is quite painful, and the first instinct is to attack the cause of that pain, which is the word genius.
It is a word I still have disdain for, it feels vain, lofty and redundant. If a wise man is in an unknowing state, isn’t using the label genius a contradiction? It implies that the individual is certain that they have reached a state of perfection. I question whether there is anything to be certain of. I question whether one is aware that they are in a state of perfection. Is it only a self-conscious being that is aware of such a thing? Isn’t nonexistence the state of the sane?

So my opening post is an attack on that word. It is the cosmic prostitute gratifying himself by ejaculating on not just the word genius, but into the face of anyone who claims to be one.

And everything returns to a state of stillness….a state of nonexistence…

Ejaculate: 1. To utter suddenly and passionately; exclaim
2. To eject or discharge abruptly, especially to discharge (semen) in orgasm.

[Jamesh]

Intellectual debate is a sign of immaturity. It is only a violent mind that desires to battle with people and prove himself as a sage, king, god or whatever he is trying to be…

The fundamentalist religionists say the same thing - the empirical detail just doesn't count.

Of course it depends on what one means by "intellectual debate". Debates about fine details are generally considered an intellectual debate, and in such circumstances I would agree with David, but are we really talking about fine details here...nahh we are talking in generalisations which can still be intellectual (as in using the mind creatively which is a truer definition of intellectual).

I'm commenting here because it is the fundamentalism in the QRS's teachings (and all such spiritual teachings) that turn me right off the whole idea of enlightenment.

[kjones]

Intellectual debate is a sign of immaturity. It is only a violent mind that desires to battle with people and prove himself as a sage, king, god or whatever he is trying to be…

The fundamentalist religionists say the same thing - the empirical detail just doesn't count.

That's not what David's on about, Jamesh. You know it, or you wouldn't leap on an irrelevant argument.

Why ignore that discomforting intuition that a very simple answer is staring you in the face? It doesn't get any simpler, in any case whatsoever. Face the fundamentalism of Reality.

I like that: "Die already..."

What can your worry possibly add to Reality ?

[Kevin Solway]

However this would only happen if an ignorant species with superior technology are able to find their way across countless galaxies to our planet from hundreds of light years away…

They may be able to purchase the technology and expertise from someone else.

If we spread our "eggs" in different baskets we have more chance of surviving in the long-run.

Lets go into this colonizing idea. There are a few obstacles. First of all the technology we have developed is not sufficient

We already have sufficient technology to live in space - large communities in orbit for example. But at the moment travelling to other star systems is problematic. However, the way we get there is to try.

Another thing I considered is that If a planet is thriving with life, wouldn’t one think that by colonizing another planet, we would have to invade another species?

We do that already. The existence of every single human being prevents other life from existing.

[kjones]

If we spread our "eggs" in different baskets we have more chance of surviving in the long-run.

We already have sufficient technology to live in space - large communities in orbit for example. But at the moment travelling to other star systems is problematic. However, the way we get there is to try.

The existence of every single human being prevents other life from existing.

Taking this invasion of species to a pertinent level: if one drop of wisdom can transform an ocean of ignorance, how many different drops of wisdom are needed to transform it in the long-run?

How can each droplet's current technology help it make itself a bigger and more effectively colonising drop? How does it best prevent ignorant droplets from propagating?

Do we hitchhike onto a Vogon constructor fleet? I'd say that's a very chancey option - one might get thrown out the hatch without a life support system, because of....speaking truthfully. Or do the wise droplets create Vogon-like political power, infiltrating and invading our "own" political systems? The latter would be very difficult for any but the most enlightened droplets. Tenzin Gyatso is an example of a person who succumbed to the political throne's temptations.

It's easier to hitchhike, and perhaps from that position, help the driver navigate.


Kelly

[David Quinn]

James wrote:

DQ: Intellectual debate is a sign of immaturity. It is only a violent mind that desires to battle with people and prove himself as a sage, king, god or whatever he is trying to be…

J: The fundamentalist religionists say the same thing - the empirical detail just doesn't count.

I was directly quoting cosmic_prostitute from "the word genius is stupid" thread. Just playing around with another person's fundamentalism - which he has since recanted, it seems.

I'm commenting here because it is the fundamentalism in the QRS's teachings (and all such spiritual teachings) that turn me right off the whole idea of enlightenment.

I don't think enlightenment cares, James.

-

[David Quinn]

cosmic_prostitute wrote:

My opening post was an overly emotional rant, which gave much gratification, but was not written out of a state of stillness.

It was written from a state, which was aggrieved by the word genius, only because I had been pulled from an unknowing state into a self conscious state, which is quite painful, and the first instinct is to attack the cause of that pain, which is the word genius.

Fair enough. It sounds as though you have been burnt in the past by a guru or a self-proclaimed genius. Were you once heavily involved in a religious community?

-

[Ryan Rudolph]

Yes, I’ve had experiences where one individual in the relationship feel they are at a superior state, and they brag to the group of what they have.

This makes the ‘meek unknowing’ who are unaware of the dynamic incredibly self-conscious.

The ego returns and asks “well, if he knows what he is, what am I?

This is a state of confusion and insecurity.

The problem is that the confidence of the other man weakens the person who feels insecure more so, and the confident man is easily able to dominant the group through sadistic attacks aimed at the others egos, but with no or little sensitivity. The result is you end up with one sadistic individual who feeds off the psychological energy of many masochistic followers.

A good example of one of these dynamics in action are the poor people surrounding American guru Andrew Cohen. However he may be wiser now, but the last time I checked in on him, he’s quite the monster.

His approach to followers is vicious slashing to their ego no matter what their current psychological state. I feel this is immoral. Some of his followers are such low quality minds that they have no chance of waking up, so who is he to do such a thing? and to make money at the same time? I find the whole thing appalling. Cohen is the classic Dracula, and Wilber makes a great ghoul sidekick. If I was the casting director for the sequel to Jim Carrey’s dumber and dumber, I’d definitely cast these two clowns.

This is why there needs to be sensitivity into the others current emotional/psychological state.

[Lennyrizzo]

Boy-Martian: Gee, where is everyone? Signs of inteligent life abound but the smartest thing here is in the ocean!
Girl-martian: Must be they tried to move out for some reason, and got zapped in the process.
Boy-martian: That explains that huge space station full of dead earthlings we saw on the way out here. Pity they hadn't waited to be discovered by a superior race.
Girl-martian: Yeah, we got a shit-load of planets in our solar system they could have lived on. Oh well, lets keep looking, got to be more life out there. If we don't find some new blood to help us out the chief is going to be pissed.
Boy-martian: OK, but i drive this time!