Irrationality: a natural inclination?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Nox23 wrote in response to Jamesh in the Neo-Objectivism thread:

The amount of War, genocide, homicide, suicide, infanticide, misogyny, terror and destruction, generated by people’s blind faith in their archaic superstition and mindless rituals, is the single greatest example of man’s natural inclination to be pornographically irrational.

And yet, is there any indication that the so-called 'great accomplishments' like state, science, the arts and philosophy would have been able to exist without such shadows as listed above? They look to me like inevitable parts of the great pie called raised consciousness. Humans greatest 'irrationality' is keep on denying a major part of the pie, denying how everything is tied together, with all trials, demons and errors included.

[N0X23]

DHodges wrote in the NickO thread:

I don't think religion is the cause of war, homicide, etc. Religion is what people construct so that they can rationalize those things. If not for religion, they could come up with some other excuse, no doubt. There's always politics, and jealousy.

I’m not implying that Religion is the singular cause of these events, it is just one of the greatest irrational motives.

There are legitimate and rational reason for war, suicide, misogyny...etc. Religion just doesn’t happen to be one of them.


If a village goes to war to protect their families and way of life from invading hostiles, I would consider this rational reasoning, now if a nation declares war on another because they do not recognize, patronize or hold a belief that runs counter to their superstitious fairytales, I would consider that highly irrational.
A man commits suicide to end his suffering after years of debilitating pain from disease, this is rational, if a man blows himself to shit, because he believes he is doing "God's Will" and will be greatly rewarded in Heaven, then this is irrational.

What came first? Did their religion say to kill witches because they caused storms - or did someone make that up, to have a scapegoat, to have someone to kill?

I would say Religion. Apparently they already harbored their irrational fears of the Pagans, since they were believed to be evil, possessed with nefarious, magical, "witch" powers.

[N0X23]

Nox23 wrote in response to Jamesh in the Neo-Objectivism thread:

The amount of War, genocide, homicide, suicide, infanticide, misogyny, terror and destruction, generated by people’s blind faith in their archaic superstition and mindless rituals, is the single greatest example of man’s natural inclination to be pornographically irrational.

And yet, is there any indication that the so-called 'great accomplishments' like state, science, the arts and philosophy would have been able to exist without such shadows as listed above? They look to me like inevitable parts of the great pie called raised consciousness. Humans greatest 'irrationality' is keep on denying a major part of the pie, denying how everything is tied together, with all trials, demons and errors included.

I’m not denying any aspect of the Pie, or even implying a moral judgment of right or wrong.
The above mentioned shadows are simply tools.
It is the Relgious induced perversions, that cause the tool to be used for irrational purposes.

So we should leave the malignant tumor in the child’s intestines because we do not want to irrationally deny any aspect of the pie?

Irrational actions, caused by hysterical beliefs, committed by psychotic zealots, are cancerous and should be combated.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I’m not denying any aspect of the Pie, or even implying a moral judgment of right or wrong.

I expected nothing less from you, based on reading your posts in general.

The above mentioned shadows are simply tools.
It is the Religious induced perversions, that cause the tool to be used for irrational purposes.

Which purposes for these same tools would you call rational? And how do you see the 'natural inclination' to these irrational purposes in this context or is it only the pornographic way of displaying? How can something be perversion as well as natural inclination? Or have I misunderstood?

So we should leave the malignant tumor in the child’s intestines because we do not want to irrationally deny any aspect of the pie?

Tough one: playing on the quite natural instinctive attachment to and compassion for the vulnerable ones and the ones near to us. Another piece of pie.
Apart from that: for every child that is helped, others have to do without. The lucky child got the top cream of the pie, the unlucky one had to eat the rather sour bottom. Some believe in a future distribution of wealth in such a way that every citizen of Earth can get enough food and medical attention to avoid such situations of having to choose who to help. It's my belief that the amount of control needed to reach such utopia will create more evil than it can solve.

Irrational actions, caused by hysterical beliefs, committed by psychotic zealots, are cancerous and should be combated.

Hmm. That statement sounds quite zealous in itself :)

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Nox, the news of today brought me an example with which I can highlight one of my questions to you or anyone else interested, about your statements:

The amount of War, genocide, homicide, suicide, infanticide, misogyny, terror and destruction, generated by people’s blind faith in their archaic superstition and mindless rituals, is the single greatest example of man’s natural inclination to be pornographically irrational.

(...)

The above mentioned shadows are simply tools.
It is the Religious induced perversions, that cause the tool to be used for irrational purposes.

Some examples from mainstream news:

1. 345 are reported dead in a 'hajj stampede' in Mecca during a symbolic stoning ritual. That would count as a religion induced perversion I assume?

2. Iraqi civilian 'accidental' casualties resulting from military intervention since invasion: 30,000 minimum (half of it caused directly by US military).

Now in the first example it's easy to see a religious link, though some would say Islam, just like in many other societies became one with the social and cultural forces, as such just plain mass behavior more than anything else, using religious ceremonies as available outlet.

The second example looks like a bizarre perversion as well, knowing the stated goal was liberation from a dictator who killed only such numbers during a 30 year harsh rule, while providing at least some basics of unity, safety and welfare for the rest. But the religious ideals of the invading forces are less clear. It seems more driven by ideology and business sense, shrouded in rationality and humanitarianism.

This illustrates my own view that "blind faith in archaic superstitions" do not generate anything. But it might blind people for the realities underlying their actions which are far more mundane but very hard to shallow. Seeing these realities would people make see the price they are paying for having what they have and it would threaten everything they think they are.

[Rhett]

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If a village goes to war to protect their families and way of life from invading hostiles, I would consider this rational reasoning,

now if a nation declares war on another because they do not recognize, patronize or hold a belief that runs counter to their superstitious fairytales, I would consider that highly irrational.

In what scenario do you imagine a nation's "superstitious fairytales" to not impact upon other nations?

And would you rule out declaring a war of knowledge as irrational?

.

[N0X23]

Which purposes for these same tools would you call rational?

I’ll use the example I gave to Dhodges, above.

If a village goes to war to protect their families and way of life from invading hostiles, I would consider this rational reasoning, now if a nation declares war on another because they do not recognize, patronize or hold a belief that runs counter to their superstitious fairytales, I would consider that highly irrational.
A man commits suicide to end his suffering after years of debilitating pain from disease, this is rational, if a man blows himself to shit, because he believes he is doing "God's Will" and will be greatly rewarded in Heaven, then this is irrational.

How can something be perversion as well as natural inclination? Or have I misunderstood?

It is man’s natural inclination to believe that he exits, although he assumes that he exists independently from his environment, this ignorance induced alienation is a perversion of existence and reality.
Now due to this perversion he suffers.
So he begins to seek freedom from this suffering and due to this perversion, he believes that the end of suffering can be accomplished thru the reenforcement of his ignorance.

The idea of the self is a by-product of ignorance.
Religion is the celebration and worship of the self.
Semantically speaking, just by averaging the ratio of those rational seeking Wisdom, versus those irrationally perpetuating their delusion and suffering, one can see it is man’s natural inclination is to be irrational.

In what scenario do you imagine a nation's "superstitious fairytales" to not impact upon other nations?

None. All actions have far reaching consequences.

And would you rule out declaring a war of knowledge as irrational?

A subjective declaration of War against ones own ignorance, would be quite rational.

[Rhett]

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Rhett: And would you rule out declaring a war of knowledge as irrational?

Nox: A subjective declaration of War against ones own ignorance, would be quite rational.

That is sensible for most.

But can you tell me where the subjective ends and the objective begins?

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[N0X23]

But can you tell me where the subjective ends and the objective begins?

That particular question might best be directed towards the likes of NickOtani. ;)