a few questions

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway »

Sapius wrote:
ksolway wrote:
Sapius wrote:So, would you say that number 1, or any other thing defined, exists inherently?
No. Defined things are dependent on being defined.
...hence that makes it timeless? Like Ultimate Reality? Ultimate Truth?
If a thing is defined in such a manner that time isn't able to change it, then it can be said to be timeless - such as the number one. This is the case even though it might only take a fraction of a second to make the definition, and the definition might never be made ever again.
Like Ultimate Reality? Ultimate Truth?
Yes, it can be put in the same "timeless" category.
hades
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Post by hades »

theres no 3rd option to existance, if you think there is, define it and prove it...and how does it exist?
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

It rests on the notion of existence and how existence is relative. There's no such thing as absolute existence because all things (existences) have causes.

The Totality is absolute because by definition there isn't anything that it could be relative to (that could cause it) so the Totality can't be an existent thing. Yet it's not non-existent either because non-existence only applies to things that could possibly (in a logical sense) have existence.

So there you have it.

Existence means "caused" and non-existence means "uncaused". Since the Totality is causation itself, it's beyond these two.
hades
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Post by hades »

Matt Gregory wrote:There's no such thing as absolute existence because all things (existences) have causes.
translation : everything isn't absolute because it is caused.
The Totality is absolute because by definition there isn't anything that it could be relative to (that could cause it) so the Totality can't be an existent thing. Yet it's not non-existent either because non-existence only applies to things that could possibly (in a logical sense) have existence.
translation : everything (aka totality) is absolute because its not caused.

So there you have it.

What?
Existence means "caused" and non-existence means "uncaused". Since the Totality is causation itself, it's beyond these two.
translation : everything is neither caused nor uncaused, it is causation...



Conclusion : The patients appear to be lost and incoherent.
I will prescribe some anti-psychotics followed by 300mg of rationality via injection into the brain.
Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway »

hades wrote:
Matt Gregory wrote:There's no such thing as absolute existence because all things (existences) have causes.
translation : everything isn't absolute because it is caused.
Every thing is caused but everything is not caused.
hades
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Post by hades »

ksolway wrote:
hades wrote:
Matt Gregory wrote:There's no such thing as absolute existence because all things (existences) have causes.
translation : everything isn't absolute because it is caused.
Every thing is caused but everything is not caused.
That makes less than no sense at all.
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Something can't be caused outside of causation. The realm of causation is outside of causation because a realm can't be subject from the outside to what is fully contained within it.

It's very elusive but I think you'll get it, Hades.
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

David wrote;
How certain am I about it? (Cause & Effect) Well, since it is a purely defintional truth, with no reliance on empirical data in any way, I am 100% certain.


I'm not quite clear on the 'purely definitional truth' part.

What is it that you are defining? Would you not show me a point of reference? How can a definition stand true without a reference? Do you simply discard sense perception once you find yourself capable of abstract though?

How can you rely 100% on a definition that is initially guided by perception, which you agree that we cannot be 100% sure of?
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

hades wrote:
ksolway wrote:
hades wrote:
Matt Gregory wrote:There's no such thing as absolute existence because all things (existences) have causes.
translation : everything isn't absolute because it is caused.
Every thing is caused but everything is not caused.
That makes less than no sense at all.

I'm not an academic, so in simple terms it would mean that things come and go (C&E), but the process of coming and going (causation = Totality) is permanent, and that the Totality, that is, the process of causation, could never have been caused from an "outside" source, because there cannot be an "outside" to that which includes all that there is.

So the "process" (Totality) itself has no particular form, hence could be called an "emptiness", (since we need to define it as something if we have to communicate) although full of things that the Totality is actually unaware of, hence empty from the 'process' POV.

That's how I see it.
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Post by bert »

David:
bert wrotre:

Quote:
I too know of his truth,hence I do not value it as Truth as he does.

Don't deceive yourself. You make it plain in your behaviour on this forum that you have no idea what Kevin means when he uses the word "Truth".
Kevin:
Truth is the manner in which all things exist - lacking inherent existence. Enlightenment involves having this knowledge, and living in accordance with it.
When I fail to see myself in all things,then shall I prey for enlightenment.
If existence was truly alogical, then you would have no way of formulating any conclusions about existence at all - not even the conclusion that existence is alogical.


I said:Allogical to any 'logic' we know!

The 'evidence' of all things is consciousness that is personal.Most of our unitary knowledge from experience has become unconscious and functions automatically.It is not normally presented to perception except when we are distressed or inspired.There are divergent ways to knowledge,and many kinds of knowledge and truth.Only effort towards truth discloses thruth.There are no conclusions - though things evolve,devolve and involve - things are ever complete(as if),the 'as now' always is.


(this took me quite some time)
If you really believed this, then why are you writing on a public forum urging people to develop in a particular way.

I never said that people have to listen what I say.I do believe that I'm at my best when I can "help" people - inspire them.
For 'all my teachings' I say:May I ever blush.

I do not believe in brotherhood:man his behaviour is too bloody for words.

but People can be friends,if that alone isn't wonderful?


sevens:
Bert!

I have nothing to say to you!

You make me smile.
Good for you...
Are you overtaken by beauty?
That you say this doesn't really come as a surprise.
Some things may strike us in a common way,and lead to mutual interests.

Shall we have a drink?
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Just when I was getting used to their absence:
I said:Allogical to any 'logic' we know!
Those damned quotation marks, again.

Do me a favour, please explain the meaning of the above sentence without using the word "logic" in quotation marks.

To me, as it is, it means this:

I said: allogical to any logic we actually don't know or that does not in fact exist.

Yet here you are, coming to apparently logical conclusions about something -- or not?

Yes, I think you will need that drink!
sevens
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Rum and Coke

Post by sevens »

Bert,

Drinks on me.

Yes, beauty can overwelm me.

In all forms, I see it.

And with that, I have no shame.
hades
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Post by hades »

Can't we say that totality/Everything is caused to exist by every thing that exists.

The totality is the sum of its parts.

If we subtract all the particular things that exist, then the whole is no more.
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

<walks out with his head hung low>
hades
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Post by hades »

lol


how do u know anything exists if u dont rely on experience and sense perception....if u ignore all your senses then you are left with a void and you can't even use words or thoughts to make up any logic, and the logic will lack semantics...meaning...
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

hades wrote: how do u know anything exists if u dont rely on experience and sense perception....if u ignore all your senses then you are left with a void and you can't even use words or thoughts to make up any logic, and the logic will lack semantics...meaning...
Does tomorrow exist? Can you show your senses to make sure? And if you claim it's similar to this day, how do you experience a 'today' exactly?

But even when you'd die today, the sun will still rise tomorrow, abstract concept or not.

And infinitely more inevitable is the Infinite.
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Post by bert »

Leyla,

alogical to any reasoning faculty we know.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Hades wrote:
Can't we say that totality/Everything is caused to exist by every thing that exists.

The totality is the sum of its parts.

If we subtract all the particular things that exist, then the whole is no more.
Not really. If all the particular things that existed were subtracted, then what would be left - e.g. a void, or nothing at all - would still be the Totality. The existence of the Totality doesn't depend on what kind of things exist, or whether things exist at all. It isn't subject to causal conditions in this way.

The Totality differs from ordinary things. It's not like a car, which is dependent upon external components - wheels, engine, door panels, windscreens, etc - being fitted together to form its body. In the case of the Totality, the component parts are never external, and they never have to be arranged in a particular way. The Totality remains the Totality, no matter what happens.

Also keep in mind that the Totality is not really a "totality" as such - as in, a collection of discrete objects. Rather, it is a seamless unity. It doesn't really have any "parts".

how do u know anything exists if u dont rely on experience and sense perception....if u ignore all your senses then you are left with a void and you can't even use words or thoughts to make up any logic, and the logic will lack semantics...meaning...

No one here is ignoring sense-perceptions. All that is happening is their limitations are being acknowledged.

It is true that logic needs meaningful information in order to produce meaningful conclusions. However, meaningful information can either come in the form of sense data or well-crafted abstract definitions. And it is only through the latter that we can find ultimate knowledge and certainty.

This is reality, and it can never be changed. If we have any love of truth of all, then we need to accept it.

-
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

bert: Existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know,so it is irrational to attempt to rationalize,except in cases of our own prejudices which inform our mentation.

DQ: If existence was truly alogical, then you would have no way of formulating any conclusions about existence at all - not even the conclusion that existence is alogical.

bert: I said:Allogical to any 'logic' we know! (alogical to any reasoning faculty we know.)

The 'evidence' of all things is consciousness that is personal.Most of our unitary knowledge from experience has become unconscious and functions automatically.It is not normally presented to perception except when we are distressed or inspired.There are divergent ways to knowledge,and many kinds of knowledge and truth.Only effort towards truth discloses thruth.There are no conclusions - though things evolve,devolve and involve - things are ever complete(as if),the 'as now' always is.
Bert, “all things lack inherent existence” is a rational, logical conclusion -- and an absolute truth.

Existence is a logical conclusion “to [of] a reasoning faculty we know.” The only thing irrational in attempting to rationalise existence is not realising that any attempt to do so first assumes logically that existence is. Anything else you may be alluding to is not, therefore, existence.

The evolution, devolution and involution of things does not change the truth of Emptiness. Neither does the possibility that most experiential knowledge -- more things to know -- is subconscious.

That fact that you seem to deify this unconsciousness -- its power, influence and apparently its ability to be excluded somehow from Emptiness -- is more telling of your own prejudices and reasoning faculty than anything else.
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Post by bert »

Bert, “all things lack inherent existence” is a rational, logical conclusion -- and an absolute truth.
that only impacts have meaning is also true,leyla.

thanks for your post.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Sapius wrote:
DQ: How certain am I about [cause & effect]? Well, since it is a purely defintional truth, with no reliance on empirical data in any way, I am 100% certain.

S: I'm not quite clear on the 'purely definitional truth' part.

What is it that you are defining?
The statement essentially is, "all things have causes", so we need to define "thing" and "cause".

This is how I define them:

- A "thing" is less than the Totality. In other words, a "thing" refers to any phenomenon which does not extend to the totality of all there is.

- A "cause" is anything which is necessary for something else to exist.

Now since the existence of what is less than the Totality will necessarily depend on the existence of the rest of the Totality, it automatically follows that all things have causes. No thing can ever arise by itself in the absence of other things.

Would you not show me a point of reference? How can a definition stand true without a reference? Do you simply discard sense perception once you find yourself capable of abstract though?
By the way I have defined it above, a "thing" necessarily refers to all phenomena in the Universe. That is the empirical connection right there.

The beauty of this definition is that it refers to all empirical realities out of logical necessity, and yet, at the same time, its validity isn't dependent on any specific empirical evidence. No matter what kind of empirical evidence is before us, a "thing" will always (a) remain less than the totality of all there is, and (b) refer to all phenomena in the Universe.

How can you rely 100% on a definition that is initially guided by perception, which you agree that we cannot be 100% sure of?
Because abstract thought has the ability to free itself from the constraints and uncertainties of the empirical realm. It can take hold of the raw material of empirical data and transmute it into logical knowledge through a skillful philosophic process. It's a form of logical alchemy, if you will.

-
bert
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Post by bert »

Bert, “all things lack inherent existence” is a rational, logical conclusion -- and an absolute truth.
How did you come to this conclusion from beginning till end,explain.
Existence is a logical conclusion “to [of] a reasoning faculty we know.” The only thing irrational in attempting to rationalise existence is not realising that any attempt to do so first assumes logically that existence is. Anything else you may be alluding to is not, therefore, existence.
You answer ,i think,in error:
It is not said that :existence is an alogical conclusion,but that existence is alogical.So you have to say:existence is logical to any/a reasoning faculty we know.
The evolution, devolution and involution of things does not change the truth of Emptiness. Neither does the possibility that most experiential knowledge -- more things to know -- is subconscious.
We may see the same thing by the labour of time differently,did you never experience that?
Do you understand everything that you read from the first time as it is,never changing?Your conception as you enter familiar places is always the same?
Do you deny the 'flesh'?

Not subconscious,but unconscious.
The subconscious is the epitome of all experience.
The unconscious what we do not realise.
To my experience you can only think of one thing at a time.Am I wrong?
That fact that you seem to deify this unconsciousness -- its power, influence and apparently its ability to be excluded somehow from Emptiness -- is more telling of your own prejudices and reasoning faculty than anything else.
What am i reasoning?

My consciously control my hands,my hart bouncing,my walking,my eyelids blinking,my ... ????
all these things are done for me.My subconscious takes care of me.If things become more conscious to me - when I experience more of myself sensationally - my unconsious is triggered (and becomes conscious)to supply new conceptions.A more unitarian experience overcomes me.And I understand things better .
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Post by Leyla Shen »

bert wrote:
Bert, “all things lack inherent existence” is a rational, logical conclusion -- and an absolute truth.
that only impacts have meaning is also true,leyla.
In that case, since your above statement had no impact on me, it has no meaning.

You might want to try punching me in the head instead. However, you're likely to get kicked in the balls before you make it.
thanks for your post.
You're welcome.
sevens
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Data Flux

Post by sevens »

Bert :

You're referring to the flux of subconscious experience, correct? The ability for the creative dionysion impetus to blossom, and burn the shackles of encroaching logical referendum. Both sides of the brain, all the day.
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

bert,

Firstly:
LS: Existence is a logical conclusion “to [of] a reasoning faculty we know.” The only thing irrational in attempting to rationalise existence is not realising that any attempt to do so first assumes logically that existence is. Anything else you may be alluding to is not, therefore, existence.

bert: You answer ,i think,in error:
It is not said that :existence is an alogical conclusion,but that existence is alogical.So you have to say:existence is logical to any/a reasoning faculty we know.
To conclude that existence is alogical is to assume that one exists separately from it. As if existence is “something over there” and apart from us.

Therefore, the claim that existence is alogical is illogical.

Secondly:
LS: The evolution, devolution and involution of things does not change the truth of Emptiness. Neither does the possibility that most experiential knowledge -- more things to know -- is subconscious.

bert: We may see the same thing by the labour of time differently,did you never experience that?
Do you understand everything that you read from the first time as it is,never changing?Your conception as you enter familiar places is always the same?
I think you confuse knowledge and data (information about specific things) with absolute truth/s.
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