Reality

[sevens]

Anyone here familiar with Robert Anton Wilson:

http://www.rawilson.com/trigger1.shtml

Good read.

[David Quinn]

Another flake, of course.

On the surface, it seems that Wilson is merely promoting the standard array of postmodernist beliefs. He seem to be just another clone of our age. But when you analyze it futher, you can see that he is actually promoting the traditional religious mentality which has already wreaked so much havoc in our world. Behind all the New Age glamour, he is a standard medieval priest.

For example, Wilson writes:

My own opinion is that belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more certitude one assumes, the less there is left to think about, and a person sure of everything would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically dead under current medical standards, where absence of brain activity is taken to mean that life has ended.

This is typical postmodernist drivel, of course, and not even Wilson himself believes in it. For within seconds, he begins presenting his own litany of certitudes. For example, he reveals that he is certain that:

- "reality" is always plural and mutable.

- quantum physics has undermined that Platonic iron-bar "reality" by showing that it makes more sense scientifically to talk only of the inter-actions we actually experience (our operations in the laboratory) ....

- the only "realities" (plural) that we actually experience and can talk meaningfully about are perceived realities, experienced realities, existential realities -- realities involving ourselves as editors -- and they are all relative to the observer ....

- our models of "reality" are very small and tidy, the universe of experience is huge and untidy, and no model can ever include all the huge untidiness perceived by uncensored consciousness.

and so on.

So what are we to make of all these dogmatic certainties of his? That he is a hypocrite? That he is completely unconscious of his own thought-processes? That he is only interested in speaking to gullible people who will lap up his words without hesitation?

He is plainly not the slightest bit interested in truth. Indeed, we get to the heart of his "philosophizing" with this:

Since we all create our habitual reality-tunnels, either consciously and intelligently or unconsciously and mechanically, I prefer to create for each hour the happiest, funniest, and most romantic reality-tunnel consistent with the signals my brain apprehends.

So, in other words, his basic aim in life is to utilize his imagination and project the happiest conceptualizations possible onto his experiences. Truth means nothing to him. Happiness is everything. This is the Christian mentality in a nutshell. He is promoting the very same conditions for Christianity, and all the other equally evil religions, to flourish - all for the sake of his personal happiness in the moment.

With "visionaries" such as these, it's no wonder that the human race is going down the gurgler.

-

[sevens]

Fundamentally, he's "preaching" the same frame of mind that you are, David.

A = A, All is Illusion...

Except, he is more interested in using the entire spectrum of the brain. He is intent on opening the reader's mind to the real nature of the universe: a similiar Enlightenment to your own. He sees that with intelligence, both women and men, can attain infinite light. Yeah, he too, sounds like myself.

Imagine if everyone were able to live their dream. Imagine if everyone were able to transcend the evils of the earth's karma.

[David Quinn]

He speaks small-time truths that any thinker worth his salt would already thoroughly understand in his teens, just as I did. The difference between us is that I pushed forward into even greater truth, using the rungs of logic and certainty, whereas he simply uses these small-time truths to create egotistical heavens for himself.

Because of this, we have nothing to do with each other. I repudiate him utterly.

Imagine if everyone were able to live their dream.

<shudder>

If everyone's dreams were unleashed, there would be even more violence, war and rape than there currently is.

Imagine if everyone were able to transcend the evils of the earth's karma.

Who on earth dreams this? Virtually nobody. You're in cloud cuckoo land, mate.

People only have eyes for the pleasures of evil and karma. To them, that's life. The last thing they want to do is transcend karma. You might as well ask them to slit their throats and be done with it.

-

[bert]

Reality is what matters.
The truth is not necessary;what is true for you is more necessary than truth.

Our lives are spend in finding the solution.

He who entirely loves himself doesn't offend like other people do.He is akin to the great purpose.He wouldn't take much interest in violence.He spends his time in making greater realities for himself by giving up all he believes.
Hate,jealousy,etc. are conditions of love,even as virtue ,greed,etc.are conditions of not pleasing oneself.
There is no sin more sickening than love,hence it has the most devotees.
Being akin to the great purpose,his actions explained for him,good seen of his evil,without knowing,everyone satisfied with his will.

No mistake:What is simple has no duality,happines is wisdom.

_______

Wilson, a great man.

[sue hindmarsh]

Wilson, a great man.

Bert, did you forget the question mark?

Or, do you really believe Wilson is a “great man”?

Sue

[bert]

Wilson, a great man.

Bert, did you forget the question mark?

Or, do you really believe Wilson is a “great man”?

Sue

2 Books of him I own:
-prometheus rising
-quantum psychology

Both I rate high.

[David Quinn]

He's okay if you are content to splash around the shoreline and collect colourful shells. He's not much good if you want to sail over the horizon and explore lands beyond.

Once, Gautama measured out three thousand chiliochosms (each containing a myriad worlds), a Bodhisattva suddenly appeared and passed over them in a single stride. Yet even that prodigious stride failed to cover the width of one pore of the Buddha's skin! Now what sort of mental attainments have you that will help you to study the meaning of that?

-

[DHodges]

My own opinion is that belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more certitude one assumes, the less there is left to think about, and a person sure of everything would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically dead under current medical standards, where absence of brain activity is taken to mean that life has ended.

If you are never willing to reach a conclusion about anything, you must keep thinking about each thing forever. If you can reach a certain conclusion, you can move on, build on that, think new things. It's actually very freeing to be able to come to conclusions about things; to be able to leave them behind, move on to something new, or build on your conclusions.

I haven't read that much of Wilson other than the Illuminatus! trilogy, but I enjoyed that very much, and I've read it more than once. I thought it was very well written. But it's a novel.

[David Quinn]

Dave Hodges wrote:

If you are never willing to reach a conclusion about anything, you must keep thinking about each thing forever. If you can reach a certain conclusion, you can move on, build on that, think new things. It's actually very freeing to be able to come to conclusions about things; to be able to leave them behind, move on to something new, or build on your conclusions.

That's right. The refusal to open one's eyes and recognize truth is itself a form of stagnation. And as you say, you cannot alter your mind and make it receptive to the deepest truths if you refuse to recognize and build on the more obvious truths.

-

[sevens]

By living in emptiness, you attain your mind.

No number is required.

Boundless.

I understand why the Buddha never uttered a word.

[bert]

IN the most remarkable simplicity there is no beginning or end of wisdom or of anything,so how can it be related to conception and intelligence?

[sevens]

http://nii.net/~obie/8circuit.htm

Another excellent source.

[sue hindmarsh]

Bert wrote:

IN the most remarkable simplicity there is no beginning or end of wisdom or of anything,so how can it be related to conception and intelligence?

Using our intelligence, we can see how everything has no beginning and no end, and of course “everything” includes the concepts of ‘intelligence’ and ‘conception’. These concepts are not made useless, or found to be corrupt in any way, because of their reality. They are only made useless, and are corrupted, when you don’t understand their true reality.

Sue

[Matt Gregory]

What if "reality" were defined as "what is consistent about experience"? Would that exclude anything real?

[sue hindmarsh]

Matt,

Can you expand on what you are trying to get at above?

For example: What do you consider "real"?

Sue

[Matt Gregory]

"Real" is anything in reality. It seems to me that "what is consistent about experience" is the same as "everything".

This is just a step towards my real goal. I'm still trying to figure out what the relationship is between absolute truth and consciousness and how it's possible that absolute truth can be understood by the human mind.

For example, we can see that A=A is absolutely true, but I don't see how it's possible that we can see this. It's only memory that gives us the principle of identity, but I don't understand why memory has this seemingly special relationship to reality.

[bert]

The imagination learns that the idea is its compulsion.
So you can only invest believe in one thing - the imagined.

The centre of belief is love for one's self,projecting environment for fulfilment but allowing its distortion to simulate denial...,but you can not go further than the centre,so you multiply(believe).

(greater certainties begin where logic ends.)

[Matt Gregory]

Where does logic begin and end?

I don't understand the rest of your post.

[sue hindmarsh]

Matt wrote:

"Real" is anything in reality. It seems to me that "what is consistent about experience" is the same as "everything".

This is just a step towards my real goal. I'm still trying to figure out what the relationship is between absolute truth and consciousness and how it's possible that absolute truth can be understood by the human mind.

For example, we can see that A=A is absolutely true, but I don't see how it's possible that we can see this. It's only memory that gives us the principle of identity, but I don't understand why memory has this seemingly special relationship to reality.

When I read your post, I was reminded of that old song, “Just a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down”, because it sounds as if you are looking for ‘some thing’ to make the understanding of A=A easier to digest. You understand that everything is caused, but you also want to hold on to a few things and pretend they have a separate existence, because it is easier that way. For example; you know that “memory”, “consciousness”, “mind” and the “I” all don’t exist independently, but you’re still trying to keep all these separated from Reality in the hope of discovering some hidden significance or unlocking their deeper reality. Immediately you can see the contradiction in your thinking, that is – you already know all you need to know to be able “see” how Reality works, but it still isn’t enough for you.

You may just like to make up new puzzles to entertain yourself – if that is the case, then Reality won’t satisfy you for very long, because, as you know – it is very simple.

* * *

Think, just for a moment, about how “memory” could have a special relationship with Reality, or for that matter, with anything? Try and discover its 'truth' from a psychological or physical perspective. Immediately you are faced with insurmountable problems; problems that you could spend a life-time trying to solve.

Instead, use what you know to be true, and apply it to those things that are causing you concern.

* * *

Matt, it seems silly to even be saying any of this stuff to you, because you obviously have the intelligence to be able to work this out for yourself – why don’t you?

Sue

[sue hindmarsh]

Bert wrote:

(greater certainties begin where logic ends.)

Bert,

You are a great thinker - considering you are a pussy cat.

Yes, Bert, “greater certainties begin where logic ends” - only when you are an animal.

Sue

[bert]

Where does logic begin and end?

I don't understand the rest of your post.

when the compulsion of some belief invested in one idea leads to some supposed other truth by the faculty of reason.

logic refutes its own syllogisms

[bert]

Bert wrote:

(greater certainties begin where logic ends.)

Bert,

You are a great thinker - considering you are a pussy cat.

Yes, Bert, “greater certainties begin where logic ends” - only when you are an animal.

Sue

All geniuses have 'active' subconsciousnesses

[sevens]

Buddha lives through the subconscious mind -- Dreaming while awake.