Check it Out! An enlightened woman.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:
Diebert wrote:Despite his birth as a donkey and being raised by Woman, a man can still struggle toward awakening.


Yes, a man can -- and does -- still struggle toward awakening, for as long as he struggles with manhood.
His manhood is his struggle for the higher. But any struggle toward women or Woman, is not manhood. You seem to take so literary the exoteric, humorous cover of the story.
LS: So, are “Woman” and “a woman” exactly the same?

DvR: No. One is a more general principle of human existence, the other one a biological category. Which one would be more real to you?

LS: As far as I am concerned, neither is necessarily any more nor any less real than the other, or the next thing. How about you?
Everything is equally (sur)real to you, you mean? How real is your valueing?
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

DvR: Despite his birth as a donkey and being raised by Woman, a man can still struggle toward awakening.

LS: Yes, a man can -- and does -- still struggle toward awakening, for as long as he struggles with manhood.

DvR: His manhood is his struggle for the higher. But any struggle toward women or Woman, is not manhood. You seem to take so literary the exoteric, humorous cover of the story.
It was supposed to be funny? Well, damn. I must have lost my sense of humour when I took my clothes off.

I guess it is pretty funny that a Master would feel sorrow over not having something which his title is apparently supposed to reflect. Nonetheless, I see more irony in it than humour!

LS: So, are “Woman” and “a woman” exactly the same?

DvR: No. One is a more general principle of human existence, the other one a biological category. Which one would be more real to you?

LS: As far as I am concerned, neither is necessarily any more nor any less real than the other, or the next thing. How about you?

DvR: Everything is equally (sur)real to you, you mean? How real is your valuing?
The other day I was lying on my bed and observed the architrave moving -- like a train -- from right to left at alternating speeds. An (non-drug induced) optical illusion. Whether the architrave moved or not is of less significance than the fact of my concluding it is an optical illusion.

Why is my moving architrave any less real to you than the notions of Woman and a woman?

Should I necessarily value conclusions about women more than I should value those about solid architraves?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote: Why is my moving architrave any less real to you than the notions of Woman and a woman?

Should I necessarily value conclusions about women more than I should value those about solid architraves?
I meant real in the sense of true or (therefore?) important to you. Surely you are not saying that understanding Woman and your moving architrave are equally true and important to you?

If your aim is to become wise, of course you necessarily value certain things above others. Above all truth. There's nothing more real and it won't disappear like the next optical illusion, or ourselves.
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

LS: Why is my moving architrave any less real to you than the notions of Woman and a woman?

Should I necessarily value conclusions about women more than I should value those about solid architraves?

DvR: I meant real in the sense of true or (therefore?) important to you. Surely you are not saying that understanding Woman and your moving architrave are equally true and important to you?
I think it would be more accurate to ask me whether understanding Woman and a woman is as equally real (true and important) to me as understanding an architrave and Illusion.

Whatever causal factors preceded both my observation of the moving architrave and the consequent conclusion, required both the fact of its moving appearance and the conclusion that it was an optical illusion. Is the truth that the architrave moved, or that it did not move -- and on what basis?

I can only conclude that the moving architrave was in fact an optical illusion if I make the assumption (premise) that all things that appear are illusory. If, on the other hand, I start with the premise that solid objects are real (true, important), then I would end up with an entirely different conclusion. Namely, that I was hallucinating -- since, by definition, a solid object does not move in the manner through which I observed one moving.

Similarly, I can only conclude that this thing called Woman and its relationship to a woman is dependent upon the same process.

Whatever causal factors precede both the observation of a woman as (the notion comprising) Woman and the consequent conclusion, require both the fact of the appearance of same and the conclusion that it is not an illusion. In other words, the solid object identified as woman encapsulates Woman (a solid, unmoving architrave) completely, necessarily, inherently and in an ultimately real (true, important) way. This is something we can, apparently, be certain about because there have been no great female philosophers -- and probably never will be. But, what -- exactly -- is a great philosopher? Does the great philosopher manifest only in lengthy materials he might produce?

Whilst this conclusion about women might possess the truth of a particular appearance on some basis of evidence such as “great philosophy,” that truth is in no way of comparable magnitude to ultimate truth (a truth that is true in all possible worlds) -- which is fundamental to it and, thus, of more significance. One could hardly dispute the lack of such evidence and remain credible -- just as would be the case with proclaiming architraves can, in fact, be seen to move through the eyes. Indeed, for anyone to be wise then -- man or woman alike -- it would be necessary to produce great works of philosophy in a manner deemed to be “great philosophy.” And so, until then, we are -- each one of us -- a woman, and probably always will be. And (taken down to its bare bones) the point of this, really, is what?
DvR: If your aim is to become wise, of course you necessarily value certain things above others. Above all truth.


Yes. But I reckon once one is wise, one no longer necessarily and/or obsessively values any thing. Instead, one simply becomes Truth (so to speak), and deftly manifests it by whatever means necessary to it -- which, when it comes to appearances, will always be determined by exactly what it is that appears.
DvR: There's nothing more real and it won't disappear like the next optical illusion, or ourselves.
Precisely. In fact, I think I’d even venture to say that the only things which appear to exist with any great deal of zeal and fervor are lies.
sevens
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Appearence

Post by sevens »

Through the fundamental equation, A equals A (biological male = biological female, for instance) it is possible to arrive at worlds that exist apart from the contraints of archetypal information - the data that exists in, and around us. This is one of the formulas -- understandings -- of Zen Enlightenment. At a plateau, one realizes that through the void of space and time, each thought carries with it, the next experience. Any experience. and Any information.

It is crucial to realize, that nothing exists apart from the illusion you construct in your mind. Energy vs. Energy.

X = X (variable factor construct)

The apparent illusion of the architrave in motion, is real. What's really at its core, even more so. This is where imagination is to be realized, as a vital component of what we label reality. And through discovering that, you build upon your abyss (X), inversely -- leading you into newer and newer abstract realms of thought.

The appearence of the architrave in motion existed at one point in time, and then vanished at another. The architrave that you experienced, lives eternally -- in "time."

We are all Time.

(Circular, Linear, Non-Linear, Vertical = In-finite)
Leyla Shen
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US & THEM

Post by Leyla Shen »

sevens wrote:
Through the fundamental equation, A equals A (biological male = biological female, for instance)…
You continue to bastardise the philosophical significance of A=A.

A biological male is a biological male. A biological female is a biological female. To take this to the next step which you are mistakenly equating with the Law of Identity, is to be nothing less than lazy about definitions and logic since, if you mean to suggest there is no difference between a biological male and female you would have to state the definitions for both as well as the logic that leads to the conclusion that they are in fact the same thing, and not two different things.

How do you do this?

How do you get (for example) from the point that a body with a penis and a majority of male hormones is the same as a body with a vagina and a majority of female hormones?
At a plateau, one realizes that through the void of space and time, each thought carries with it, the next experience.


What is the void of space and time, exactly?
It is crucial to realize, that nothing exists apart from the illusion you construct in your mind. Energy vs. Energy.
Is this not then necessarily a part of the illusion you have constructed in your own mind? If nothing exists apart from “the construct in your own mind,” (whatever that is) what is “your own mind”?

That is the only crucial thing to realise about it.

You cannot force something to add up which does not add up. Well, you can in a way, but just where that takes you is another matter entirely…

If the illusions you have constructed in your own mind are the only thing that exists, who the hell are you talking to and why?

From this, I think you are so hung up "in your own mind" that you don’t care to understand the ideas of others. What is self-contradictory about this, however, is that you continue to promote your own to them as if they exist. What’s with that? Are you merely talking to yourself? Who or what is it that you hope to change and/or enlighten if nothing else exists but your own illusions?

I think you have missed my point, therefore.
sevens
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You and I

Post by sevens »

Leyla Shen wrote:sevens wrote:
Through the fundamental equation, A equals A (biological male = biological female, for instance)…
You continue to bastardise the philosophical significance of A=A.

A biological male is a biological male. A biological female is a biological female. To take this to the next step which you are mistakenly equating with the Law of Identity, is to be nothing less than lazy about definitions and logic since, if you mean to suggest there is no difference between a biological male and female you would have to state the definitions for both as well as the logic that leads to the conclusion that they are in fact the same thing, and not two different things.

How do you do this?

How do you get (for example) from the point that a body with a penis and a majority of male hormones is the same as a body with a vagina and a majority of female hormones?
At a plateau, one realizes that through the void of space and time, each thought carries with it, the next experience.


What is the void of space and time, exactly?
It is crucial to realize, that nothing exists apart from the illusion you construct in your mind. Energy vs. Energy.
Is this not then necessarily a part of the illusion you have constructed in your own mind? If nothing exists apart from “the construct in your own mind,” (whatever that is) what is “your own mind”?

That is the only crucial thing to realise about it.

You cannot force something to add up which does not add up. Well, you can in a way, but just where that takes you is another matter entirely…

If the illusions you have constructed in your own mind are the only thing that exists, who the hell are you talking to and why?

From this, I think you are so hung up "in your own mind" that you don’t care to understand the ideas of others. What is self-contradictory about this, however, is that you continue to promote your own to them as if they exist. What’s with that? Are you merely talking to yourself? Who or what is it that you hope to change and/or enlighten if nothing else exists but your own illusions?

I think you have missed my point, therefore.
1. Mind is mind.

2. That which you are experiencing right now - devoid of thing and such.

3. The vital communion between the sub and pre-conscious mind.

4. More Truths than Truth can define...
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

And what the hell is this supposed to be?

A meaningful conversation?

We've gone from the idea of "your own mind" to "mind is mind."

Let's start with one question at a time:

Tell me clearly, what is "your own mind"?

OK, maybe two (can't help myself):

How can a non-thing be experienced?
sevens
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Long Distance Call.

Post by sevens »

Leyla Shen wrote:And what the hell is this supposed to be?

A meaningful conversation?

We've gone from the idea of "your own mind" to "mind is mind."

Let's start with one question at a time:

Tell me clearly, what is "your own mind"?

OK, maybe two (can't help myself):

How can a non-thing be experienced?
It's important to keep in mind the context of the argument -- rebuttal.

Your own mind is your mind: mind is mind. What can throw us off, is our own feminine mindedness.

A non-thing is experienced in the state of mind, that is the void - flux.
sevens
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Post by sevens »

Your buddha-nature is your mind.

When you can see through ego, you can see through to mind.

When you can see through fear, you can see into your nature.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote: In other words, the solid object identified as woman encapsulates Woman (a solid, unmoving architrave) completely, necessarily, inherently and in an ultimately real (true, important) way. This is something we can, apparently, be certain about because there have been no great female philosophers -- and probably never will be. But, what -- exactly -- is a great philosopher? Does the great philosopher manifest only in lengthy materials he might produce?
A great philosopher is always pointed, and to the point. Could you rewrite all that stuff about architraves in only three lines? It takes courage as much as skill to leave out words; the risk to be misunderstood. But then: when understood, the understanding can now go way deeper.
Indeed, for anyone to be wise then -- man or woman alike -- it would be necessary to produce great works of philosophy in a manner deemed to be “great philosophy.” And so, until then, we are -- each one of us -- a woman, and probably always will be. And (taken down to its bare bones) the point of this, really, is what?
There's no book of rules to dictate what is a 'great work of philosophy' and what's not. To judge this for oneself, as opposed to parroting or worshipping, one needs to become capable of 'great work' first. A catch 22?

And what do you mean with 'each one of us'. Are we a herd? Are you its spokessheep?
DvR: If your aim is to become wise, of course you necessarily value certain things above others. Above all truth.

LS: Yes. But I reckon once one is wise, one no longer necessarily and/or obsessively values any thing. Instead, one simply becomes Truth (so to speak), and deftly manifests it by whatever means necessary to it -- which, when it comes to appearances, will always be determined by exactly what it is that appears.
But what causes the valuing on the road to this wisdom or the state of being wise you refer to? And why would it stop after having arrived? Doesn't one simply 'become value' or at least valuable for the world so it can follow?
Leyla Shen
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WHERE'S LITTLE GRASSHOPPER?

Post by Leyla Shen »

sevens wrote:
It's important to keep in mind the context of the argument -- rebuttal.
I see. Just like I said to you yesterday when -- after we further discussed the issue -- you said you had not understood what I had written before you replied? You mean that sort of thing?
Your buddha-nature is your mind.

When you can see through ego, you can see through to mind.

When you can see through fear, you can see into your nature.
Yes, yes, I know.

Everthing is --

Meta. Light.

You, me, us them -- meta-four. Sleepy pink day-zees all,

a round. De-ream.

Void.

--

Further to our discussion about fear yesterday, can one still be afraid if one sees through fear?

Are you saying Buddha Nature -- being the mind, as you state above -- is the creator of fear, then?
sevens
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In The Park

Post by sevens »

Buddha-Nature is beyond words.

It is. Pure perception.

It is. Always present.

You transcend conceptual and symbolic thought,

And arrive at the Void.
sevens
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Tomorrow Never Knows

Post by sevens »

Turn off your mind, relax, and float down stream. It is not dying.

It is not dying.

Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.

It is shining.

That you may see the meaning of within, it is being.

It is being.

*

That love is all. That love is everyone. It is knowing.

It is knowing.

That ignorance, and hate - they mourn the dead. It is believing.

It believing.
sevens
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Post by sevens »

Buddha-Nature is always present.

Ego causes delusion, ignorance, and fear.
sevens
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Post by sevens »

The construct you have, in your mind, is exactly what you are experiencing at this moment.

Buddha-Nature, like logic, can be a tool with which to explore different realms of being [different constructs with which to interpret what you're experiencing]

Buddha-Nature allows you to receive light from the hidden void. The void that is all around. With light at your disposal, you can create within an inner-light spectrum.
Last edited by sevens on Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sevens
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Definition

Post by sevens »

Female: Biological.

Male: Biological.

Intelligence: Biological.

Wisdom: X.

Wisdom corrupted: History.

- - -

It is in history, that we never learn.
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

DvR: A great philosopher is always pointed, and to the point. Could you rewrite all that stuff about architraves in only three lines? It takes courage as much as skill to leave out words; the risk to be misunderstood. But then: when understood, the understanding can now go way deeper.


Of course I could edit what I wrote and make it tighter -- remove any unnecessary padding. I cannot imagine anyone communicating in any way without the intention of making something understood. I don’t see anything rationally courageous in the act of leaving out words that communicate what one is actually trying to communicate, for instance.

I could probably turn it into a koan.

So, insofar as courage and the fear of being misunderstood goes, it is solely a matter of skill. It can, however, take a great deal of courage to write honestly and straight from the core.
LS: Indeed, for anyone to be wise then -- man or woman alike -- it would be necessary to produce great works of philosophy in a manner deemed to be “great philosophy.” And so, until then, we are -- each one of us -- a woman, and probably always will be. And (taken down to its bare bones) the point of this, really, is what?

DvR: There's no book of rules to dictate what is a 'great work of philosophy' and what's not. To judge this for oneself, as opposed to parroting or worshipping, one needs to become capable of 'great work' first. A catch 22?
Not really. Catch 22 is the product of a dualistic mindset. The chicken and the egg problem. If one considers the complex nature of causality, one stops seeing the chicken as simply a chicken and the egg as simply an egg. One, for example, may begin to consider the DNA strand and see that they are different forms of the same thing. What came first becomes irrelevant to the task at hand.
DvR: And what do you mean with 'each one of us'. Are we a herd? Are you its spokessheep?
Well, that depends largely upon who you are.
DvR: If your aim is to become wise, of course you necessarily value certain things above others. Above all truth.

LS: Yes. But I reckon once one is wise, one no longer necessarily and/or obsessively values any thing. Instead, one simply becomes Truth (so to speak), and deftly manifests it by whatever means necessary to it -- which, when it comes to appearances, will always be determined by exactly what it is that appears.

DvR: But what causes the valuing on the road to this wisdom or the state of being wise you refer to?


The assumption of some degree of wisdom.
DvR: And why would it stop after having arrived?


It wouldn’t.
DvR: Doesn't one simply 'become value' or at least valuable for the world so it can follow?
Only in the eyes and minds of others who are on the same path.
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