Drawing the Line Between Truth and Lie

[Leyla Shen]

I wasn't referring to his theism when I wrote that he brings plenty to the table. He contributes constructively on a range of topics. You, however, judge him primarily based on one of his beliefs: your rabid anti-theism colours your reaction to him.

No, I judge him solely based on quality and not quantity.

I'm not a one-issue poster either.

You flatter yourself. Really. You are so one-dimensional it sticks out like a throbbing big toe!

More than that, you assert a sense of superiority over him.

With good reason—something neither of you will likely understand.

Your condescending attitude does you no credit, not that you care –

Correct. If I were looking for approval, I’d be more like you—running about defending people’s feelings, thinking I’ve achieved something. You know, spreading “the love and kindness…”

…you don your insulting demeanour with pride.

It has nothing to do with pride. I think what passes for sensible and acceptable human discourse is utterly tragic!

Two ways to get Leyla foaming at the mouth and hurling obscenities at you:
* indicate that you take the possibility of God seriously
* describe muslims in anything but glowing terms.

You should be more honest, but at least you're lying in an appropriately titled thread! There’s only one way to attract my wrath and that is to be blatantly and consistently idiotic on the same topic. Therefore, the subjects vary, but yes, one of them is the matter of taking seriously the existence of an omnibenevolent alien God. You will find, however, that such a believer is, in fact, impossible to reason with.

Insofar as the second subject goes, well—you’re clearly unable to separate your emotion from reason, again. Ask my nephew what I think of Islam. As a Muslim convert, who I have debated on the matter, he’s in a far better position to tell the truth about my position on it than you are. I have much to say about Muslims, but I won’t feed a bunch of ignorant, literalist Christians who think they’re above them with it.

You know me far less well than you think you do. But that’s not surprising, since your only yardstick is whether someone makes you and others feel good!

Keep hoping.

One way to get Leyla offended and up in arms:
* criticise Marx.

Then wait for her to call you emotional.

Wrong again. I’m dying for someone to actually criticize the man’s thinking and philosophy coherently and without contradiction!

Still waiting….

[Leyla Shen]

Thanks for the info, guest.

You see? Right there is utter puke material!

Oh, Father, why hast thou forsaken me-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e!!

[brokenhead]

Correct. If I were looking for approval, I’d be more like you—running about defending people’s feelings, thinking I’ve achieved something. You know, spreading “the love and kindness…”

You seek attention, Leyla.

Just like any other woman.

So you put quotes around "the love and kindness" like you don't want to touch it. You know there's nothing funny about peace, love, and understanding.

Or do you?

Ask my nephew what I think of Islam.

This is inellectual nonsense. Why should I or anyone else ask someone else what you think of Islam? Do I know your nephew? How would I even go about asking him anything? Can't you speak for yourself?

As a Muslim convert, who I have debated on the matter, he’s in a far better position to tell the truth about my position on it than you are.

The poor guy has to listen to you? I'm on his side already.

I have much to say about Muslims

Now there's a shocker.

You know me far less well than you think you do. But that’s not surprising, since your only yardstick is whether someone makes you and others feel good!

I feel great. What's it to you?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

• • • • • • Lie is the spin of Li f e

• • • • • • Truth just points it out

[Leyla Shen]

Unlike you, I always speak for myself, brokenhead. That's the difference between you and me. It's called integrity--character and, to be REALLY clear, I have them, you don't.

This is inellectual nonsense. Why should I or anyone else ask someone else what you think of Islam? Do I know your nephew? How would I even go about asking him anything? Can't you speak for yourself?

Man, you are insane. Just how many personalities do you have in there to answer for, eh? You're getting them all mixed up.

[brokenhead]

Unlike you, I always speak for myself, brokenhead. That's the difference between you and me. It's called integrity--character and, to be REALLY clear, I have them, you don't.

This is inellectual nonsense. Why should I or anyone else ask someone else what you think of Islam? Do I know your nephew? How would I even go about asking him anything? Can't you speak for yourself?

Man, you are insane. Just how many personalities do you have in there to answer for, eh? You're getting them all mixed up.

Hey, guest_of_logic! See? I can get Leyla all riled up without putting down Islam. All you have to do is be logical and rational with her and off she goes.

[Leyla Shen]

Hm, yeah--OK. Yay. Woohoo.

(Your powers of observation are as flaccid as your mind...)

[brokenhead]

Hm, yeah--OK. Yay. Woohoo.

(Your powers of observation are as flaccid as your mind...)

So Leyla, how do you view Islam?

[Leyla Shen]

Essentially the same way as I view Christianity--as an opiate for the people. Will you give me something relevant and substantial now, I wonder?

[brokenhead]

Wonder no longer.

Have you experienced opiates? Since you just brought it up.

[Carl G]

No, brokenhead. The truth is, your own mind lacks life-giving vitality, wishing to draw it from others.

Utter drivel. Broke brings plenty to the table. You just have a prejudice against theists.

I'm curious, what does Broke bring to the table? Seriously.

[guest_of_logic]

I'm curious, what does Broke bring to the table? Seriously.

Insightful, thoughtful, helpful, knowledgeable posts on philosophical/scientific issues, such as this post in the Causality and Acausality thread.

Interesting socio-political commentary, like this rant in the Should all drugs be legalized? thread.

Interesting descriptions of his past and current life experiences, such as his drug addiction and reform.

A sane, human counterpoint to the view of certain folk on this forum that love should be rejected because of the possibility of hatred.

Probably other stuff that off the top of my head I'm forgetting.

I don't agree with everything that broke writes, with every position that he holds and with every tactic that he uses - in fact there are probably only a very few posts in which I could not find something to criticise (no doubt he would say the same of me) - but I do think that his overall contribution is valuable.

What real support is there for the notion that his mind "lacks life-giving vitality, wishing to draw it from others"?

[Leyla Shen]

What real support is there for the notion that his mind "lacks life-giving vitality, wishing to draw it from others"?

Oh, that's easy. Aside from the example earlier given, there's also the fact that other dead people rally around him in times of need...

~

Have you experienced opiates? Since you just brought it up.

I've had a couple of mean doses of morphine. Plenty of poppy seeds.

Are you planning on making a connection, or waiting for me to do it for you?

[Carl G]

I'm curious, what does Broke bring to the table? Seriously.

Insightful, thoughtful, helpful, knowledgeable posts on philosophical/scientific issues, such as this post in the Causality and Acausality thread.

Interesting socio-political commentary, like this rant in the Should all drugs be legalized? thread.

Interesting descriptions of his past and current life experiences, such as his drug addiction and reform.

A sane, human counterpoint to the view of certain folk on this forum that love should be rejected because of the possibility of hatred.

Right, interesting stuff. I don't know why I keep getting the impression that Broke is somewhat of an empty head, that his thinking is shallow, and that he seems to be here mostly for self-amusement, to show himself how clever he is. Again, just a recurring impression, with no evidence to back it up. Must be me. Thanks for proving it wrong.

[Leyla Shen]

Religion & faith--opiate of the people. How science will save you....

[brokenhead]

Religion & faith--opiate of the people. How science will save you....

First, let me point out that this is the title which you gave to the link. The title of the article you have linked to is somewhat less biased: More Faith, Less Pain: Religious Experiences And Pain Resistance Linked

So you've had some mean doses of morphine. Presumably, then, you remember the experiences and know what it is like to be opiated. Yet you have never had a religious experience so you cannot compare the two first hand. Therefore, you must use Google - just put in the search words "opiate" and "people," sift through a few of the search results, and post a link here as your response.

You should be aware that I know how to use search engines as well.

I was asking, rather, why you would take it upon yourself to lecture your nephew, who sounds like he is quite capable of making serious decisions for himself, about something you of which you are largely ignorant.

You respond, typically, with nothing personal and then say that I do not begin to know you. Whose fault is that? "Religion is the opiate of the masses" is clearly not your view of religion: it is Karl Marx's view. The link above is also not your view of religion, since it is not about religion but rather the mind-body connection, and it is merely something you found on the web.

But have you actually read this article your link leads to? It seems to speak about the power of faith in helping people endure physical pain. Presumably this would also help with psychological pain. Maybe reading the memoirs of Auschwitz survivors would bear out faith's power over the physical and mental horrors the world at its worst has to offer.

I no more believe in Jesus' virgin birth than I do in my own. Mary as an icon has no particular significance for me. But I'm not about to throw out her baby with the birth-water, so to speak. Just as I was never remotely convinced those little sour wafers at Catholic Mass are somehow "God" after an elderly, sexual deviant in funny robes mumbled incomprehensible syllables over them, yet I didn't let that "prove" to me that there is - and can - be no God.

You have to do better than that, Leyla. I sense your nephew has somehow made a dent in that iron head of yours. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing you reject Christianity because it was what you were most exposed to growing up. Your nephew, on the other hand, may also be rejecting traditional Christianity and espousing what seems to him to be a more whole established religion. I would hasten to agree with him. According to the Koran, all Allah's messengers are equal. It is not for us to judge or rank Mohammed and Jesus, as that would imply we are on the same footing with the one who has sent them. This is blasphemous. As you know, the main schism between the Jews and Islam - who both trace their roots back to Abraham - is that the Jews killed Jesus. Zionism only exacerbates the rift.

Can you leave Marx out of it and say in your own words and voice how Christianity and Islam are alike and how they differ? What has been your experience? There surely must have been some in addition to reading Marx.

[guest_of_logic]

You are so one-dimensional it sticks out like a throbbing big toe!

That I have a recognisable personality, character, style and set of values does not make me one-dimensional.

guest_of_logic: More than that, you assert a sense of superiority over him.

Leyla: With good reason—something neither of you will likely understand.

I understand that your sense of superiority gives you an emotional pay-off. You relish the opportunity to condescend, ridicule and generally insult and lambast those you deem inferior. It's not particularly enlightened or "superior" behaviour.

If I were looking for approval, I’d be more like you—running about defending people’s feelings, thinking I’ve achieved something. You know, spreading “the love and kindness…”

Your insinuation that there's something undesirable about love and kindness is particularly ironic given that you chose to become a mother. I can think of few roles that require the exercise of love and kindness more than mothering children. Oh, but let me guess - there's no love and kindness in your house, just a healthy dose of logic and criticism.

As for "defending people's feelings", if that were my sole motivation, then I wouldn't have known what to do. Saying nothing might have left broke with bruised feelings, saying something might have caused you annoyance. My actual choice was based on fairness: I considered what you wrote to be unfair.

guest_of_logic: you don your insulting demeanour with pride.

Leyla: It has nothing to do with pride. I think what passes for sensible and acceptable human discourse is utterly tragic!

I think that what you think is acceptable human discourse is utterly tragic: condescension, insult and ridicule - it's hardly an effective or appropriate means of encouraging a reasonable exchange of opinions and arguments.

Two ways to get Leyla foaming at the mouth and hurling obscenities at you:
* indicate that you take the possibility of God seriously
* describe muslims in anything but glowing terms.

You should be more honest, but at least you're lying in an appropriately titled thread!

It's called exaggerating for rhetorical effect, and you should be intelligent enough to recognise the device. The fact is that you're excessively sensitive to negative characterisations of muslims (mostly in a social and political sense - I understand that you find fault with the religion), particularly from westerners.

There’s only one way to attract my wrath and that is to be blatantly and consistently idiotic on the same topic.

Your recognition of idiocy is imperfect, and you sometimes make mistakes, but you're so invested in your superiority that you bluster over your mistakes, failing to acknowledge them - you clearly have an emotional agenda, and the irony is that, as I predicted ("wait for her to call you emotional"), you accuse others of it:

Insofar as the second subject goes, well—you’re clearly unable to separate your emotion from reason, again.

My emotions have nothing to do with it; your attempt to throw my argument back at me (it's not me who's emotional, it's you!) is misplaced. I've observed you in discussions where muslims are at issue and you clearly react above and beyond what the occasion demands - it's an emotional topic for you. I'm not the only person who's noticed it.

You will find, however, that such a believer [in the existence of an omnibenevolent alien God] is, in fact, impossible to reason with.

Actually, I will find many instances of conversions of believers to atheism. You simply have an emotional need to project as much inferiority onto believers as possible - it enhances your own sense of superiority.

But that’s not surprising, since your only yardstick is whether someone makes you and others feel good!

It's ironic that just before that you wrote "You know me far less well than you think you do."

One way to get Leyla offended and up in arms:
* criticise Marx.

Then wait for her to call you emotional.

Wrong again.

I've just reviewed your posts on Marx and I've found that I've misremembered: there's no reaction that can reasonably be characterised as being "offended and up in arms", so I withdraw that comment.

I’m dying for someone to actually criticize the man’s thinking and philosophy coherently and without contradiction!

I'm not really the man for the job, having not read any of Marx. I do think though that a legitimate criticism is that - as far as I know - all attempts thus far to implement his philosophy have failed dismally. Perhaps though you can point me to a success story...

[sue hindmarsh]

Leyla wrote: If I were looking for approval, I’d be more like you—running about defending people’s feelings, thinking I’ve achieved something. You know, spreading “the love and kindness…”

guest_of_logic wrote: Your insinuation that there's something undesirable about love and kindness is particularly ironic given that you chose to become a mother. I can think of few roles that require the exercise of love and kindness more than mothering children. Oh, but let me guess - there's no love and kindness in your house, just a healthy dose of logic and criticism.

Guest, I entirely agree with your sentiment that children need love and kindness. Only thing is, I question if women are capable of providing love and kindness to children, or for that matter, to any living creature.

Below is a conversation between two young mums I recently overheard at a café I frequent. I repeat it here because it gives a peek inside the 'mother-mind', and the mind of women in general.

Mum 1: Children are so easy to love compared to men.
Mum 2: Yes, children just love you for who you are. They don't care about how you look, or anything...
M 1: They’re great that way. Oh! Did I tell you that Chas and I got Jack into Prep at BBC*?
M 2: Did you?! We haven't heard back from them yet, but Brody is sure to get a place.
M 1: Of course he will. He’s such a lovely, intelligent little boy. It would be a real shame if he missed out.
M 2: We’re not worried...Did I tell you that Mandy’s cello teacher told us that though she’s only four, she’s advancing very quickly?
M 1: That's just great. You know we've tried everything to get Sophie interested in an instrument, but she refuses to even try one.
M 2: She'll regret it in the future. But you can’t force them.
M 1: You know me; I'll talk her round.
At this point I was passing their table on my way out of the café. Both women were smiling broadly at one another over their raised coffee cups. As I reached the door, I heard M 2 ask M 1: How’s Chas’ work? As I stepped onto the street I just caught M1 reply: Work! That's all he does! He's so selfish…

*BBC is a private boy’s school

[sue hindmarsh]

Leyla wrote: If I were looking for approval, I’d be more like you—running about defending people’s feelings, thinking I’ve achieved something. You know, spreading “the love and kindness…”

guest_of_logic wrote: Your insinuation that there's something undesirable about love and kindness is particularly ironic given that you chose to become a mother. I can think of few roles that require the exercise of love and kindness more than mothering children. Oh, but let me guess - there's no love and kindness in your house, just a healthy dose of logic and criticism.

"Logic and criticism" sounds like a much healthier mix than the love and kindness women (and men) usually give their children.

Raised with logic, the child would know that it was understood and respected. With such a sturdy base to grow up upon, the child would become capable of discerning and discriminating with much less fear than those children traumatized by their loving parents.

Leyla's valuing of logic shows that she has a great love and feeling of kindness for her children - and also for the rest of humanity.

[brokenhead]

Insofar as the second subject goes, well—you’re clearly unable to separate your emotion from reason, again.

My emotions have nothing to do with it; your attempt to throw my argument back at me (it's not me who's emotional, it's you!) is misplaced. I've observed you in discussions where muslims are at issue and you clearly react above and beyond what the occasion demands - it's an emotional topic for you. I'm not the only person who's noticed it.

Another thing I have noticed about Leyla: whenever she accuses her interlocutor of something - such as being emotional - it's a dead giveaway that it's precisely what she is "guilty" of doing herself. I'm sure guest is quite capable of emotion, but he does not seem to use them in his discourse, either as an attack, a defense, or in substantiation of a position.

[brokenhead]

"Logic and criticism" sounds like a much healthier mix than the love and kindness women (and men) usually give their children.

I understand what you are saying here, Sue, and I agree with it as far as it goes. As long as you are not implying that logic and constructive criticism are mutually exclusive with love and kindness.

If you are a one- or two-dimensional thinker, you will observe a couple of shallow, idiot mums having coffee somewhere, and decide that this is proof that the TLC of all mothers and fathers is suspect. You wouldn't be claiming that, would you?

Raised with logic, the child would know that it was understood and respected. With such a sturdy base to grow up upon, the child would become capable of discerning and discriminating with much less fear than those children traumatized by their loving parents.

I guess you are.

Again, love and truth and consistency are in no way incompatible. Which is not to say all parents are equally adept at parenting. Logic would mean nothing if not accompanied by love. And once you understand the true nature of love, you might even see that it circumscribes logic and subsumes it, includes and transcends it.

Leyla's valuing of logic shows that she has a great love and feeling of kindness for her children - and also for the rest of humanity

Doesn't humanity include "idiots"and "sheep" like guest and myself?

[guest_of_logic]

Sue, I'm not sure what the conversation that you shared is supposed to prove. Please lay it out for me explicitly.

As far as love and kindness versus logic and criticism whilst mothering (or parenting in general) goes, I'm all for an appropriate mix of the four.

[sue hindmarsh]

guest_of_logic,

Please see my following post to brokenhead. It may answer your questions. Or it may create many, many more. : )

[sue hindmarsh]

brokenhead wrote:

Sue: "Logic and criticism" sounds like a much healthier mix than the love and kindness women (and men) usually give their children.

I understand what you are saying here, Sue, and I agree with it as far as it goes. As long as you are not implying that logic and constructive criticism are mutually exclusive with love and kindness.

They are “mutually exclusive” in that logic (truth) uncovers the hatred and selfishness behind love and kindness.

If you are a one- or two-dimensional thinker, you will observe a couple of shallow, idiot mums having coffee somewhere, and decide that this is proof that the TLC of all mothers and fathers is suspect. You wouldn't be claiming that, would you?

Yes, those mums are “idiots”, but they're no different from the millions of other loving parents who value their relationship with their children over a relationship with truth.

Again, love and truth and consistency are in no way incompatible.

Truth and consistency go hand in hand; for when you value truth, you also value living consistent to it. Love is the odd one out. It is useful in focusing the mind on truth. But its usefulness becomes its undoing, as truth inevitably exposes it as a lie.

Which is not to say all parents are equally adept at parenting.

All parents that value love and kindness (i.e. hatred and selfishness) over logic are equally guilty of child abuse.

Logic would mean nothing if not accompanied by love.

Without the driving passion to be logical (truthful) in all things, one stays trapped in ignorance. But once you’re firmly on the road to truth, love is left behind on the road side with all the other rubbish.

And once you understand the true nature of love, you might even see that it circumscribes logic and subsumes it, includes and transcends it.

Yes, I do see that the true nature of love restricts, smothers and transcends logic in a wholly negative way. But love can never “include” logic in its operations, for logic strips bare all of love's subterfuges.

Sue: Leyla's valuing of logic shows that she has a great love and feeling of kindness for her children - and also for the rest of humanity

Doesn't humanity include "idiots"and "sheep" like guest and myself?

Well, guest and you haven’t shown (as yet) any interest in taking spirituality seriously – so you two can’t really be classed as ‘humans’. But Leyla’s posts about her own longing to become human will be read by other people also wanting the same thing. And it is in this way that her love of truth becomes love for humanity.

[sue hindmarsh]

guest_of_logic wrote:

Leyla: No, brokenhead. The truth is, your own mind lacks life-giving vitality, wishing to draw it from others.

Utter drivel. Broke brings plenty to the table. You just have a prejudice against theists.

Only a fool wouldn't.