True stuff

[jupiviv]

A context is a place to come from or opening up a clearing for truth to show up in.

Truth cannot "show up" because it's always there.

[Dennis Mahar]

mostly it's covered up because it's perplexing.

nothing to grab on to.

gotta put some ground under the shoes.

unlikely to get a date on Saturday night unless you start spinning a web of pretense.

all 'acts' transparent (easily seen thru') makes Jack a lonely boy.

the loneliness of the long distance runner (geddit?)

[jupiviv]

Is there a soul on earth who's a man of "this shore"?
How sad to mistakenly stand on a wave-lashed quay!
Practice pursued with the roots to life still uncut
Is a senseless struggle, however long it lasts.

- Hakuin.

[Dennis Mahar]

Is there a soul on earth who's a man of "this shore"?
How sad to mistakenly stand on a wave-lashed quay!
Practice pursued with the roots to life still uncut
Is a senseless struggle, however long it lasts.

- Hakuin.

That, being an object appearing in the public domain is accessed by a subjective consciousness. Only a subjective consciousness already attuned to the experience 'this shore' can bring a measure to it and grade its excellence of distinction.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

"Roots to life still uncut"

If one remains with worldly desire and pursuits it is just as Hakuin says, a senseless struggle.
Only through ceasing clinging is there the peace of dissolution, completely empty of caring.
Its as Lao Tzu puts it, being blown to and fro, not-doing.

[Dennis Mahar]

The self is largely public.
The 'public self' conditioned in understanding and mood by herd orientation.
Since a kid its been conditioned in to who and what it should be publicly.

It shows up in public with all its caginess, its protection rackets, so yes withdrawal from public life sets up conditions whereby access to pre-theoretical being is enabled.
Nevertheless 'chop wood, carry water' involves a necessity for engaging public life.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yeah public self, walking on eggshells, having to cater for complete insanity. A game of control and attachment. Step out of line and people respond with bared teeth.

This mental agitation which creates constant 'needs' through conceptual clinging is a self-caused hell. Such as someone needing to be right or needing to be apologized too, people will lose all sense and run at you with a knife if the opposite of their need occurs - such as if you were to laugh at the wrong time.

It never occurred to you that knowing this gives a unique ability to get across this important message and help in this widespread issue?

Doesn't have to be an attachment or a rush, but wouldn't it be great to hand someone a life changing description which gets through to them and releases them from this agitation? It's really just a matter of the correct wording to put them on the right path.

[jupiviv]

That, being an object appearing in the public domain is accessed by a subjective consciousness. Only a subjective consciousness already attuned to the experience 'this shore' can bring a measure to it and grade its excellence of distinction.

You've misunderstood those profound words. Either one is aware of "the other shore", or of nothing at all. Therefore there is no question of measuring or grading - doing so is like standing on a wave-lashed quay waiting for the wind to blow hard enough.

Pay attention to the last two lines. The "root of life" lies deeper than you think. It is not sorrow but joy. And joy is deeper still than sorrow can be, to paraphrase Zarathustra.

Internet-assembled Buddhist jargon is not sharp enough to cut it.

[Dennis Mahar]

All I said was it was an excellent distinction that calls forth an already/always understanding by any one who already 'knows' it.
What you say about what I said or didn't say is your stuff not mine.
Let's be clear on that much at least.

Seeker,
the doctrine 'not-self' refers to that conditioned public self which is of a theoretical nature.
the mode of negation is coming to terms with that fabrication or artifice and deconstructing it which opens up pre-theoretical being.

I took a Walden Pond sabbatical in the late 70's; for 8 months I lived in a tent in the bush.
Human contact was a fortnightly trip to town, to the bank for cash and the shops for supplies and a small transistor radio.
After 4 months the public face was breaking down.
after 6 months I was merging with nature and after 8 months I had to get out because of a massive fright that I would disappear completely.
It took weeks to get the public self up and running smoothly again.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

after 6 months I was merging with nature and after 8 months I had to get out because of a massive fright that I would disappear completely.

I wonder in what context you mean exactly here for disappearing.

I can tell you didn't spend 8 months in the bush up and about the whole time, how much time would you spend eyes closed doing nothing?

[Dennis Mahar]

I'm talking about the encumbrance of the maintenance of the public self.
Most of the conversations the public self is involved in is reassuring others it is one of them, it has to present an appearance of being witty, urbane, up-to-date with latest trends, kind, caring, attentive, considerate, polite, smart, clever, sexy, looking good.

Withdrawing from that public self which is a daily maintenance project, for a considerable length of time, gets the experience of 'losing it', of it 'dropping off'.
one's facility in 'social graces' wanes and loses snappiness because 'social graces' looks extremely tedious and pointless even tho' it has a point of putting everyone else at ease.

Withdrawing from the pack mindfulness kicks in, a quiet contentment, an untrammeled mind.
'jumping for joy' as jup suggests is way over the top.

There are guys who live in wilderness areas as hermits who cut themselves right out of the system, a disappearing act.
Going down that track frightened me as a possibility.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yeah it isn't necessary, a bit extreme, but would still be nice for them if that was their thing. Though unless you really can't get away, it's not hard to not care, they could just walk out the door to the nearest patch of grass and sit alone any time if other people were affecting them that much.

But really the path is taken "without having to look out the window."

[jupiviv]

All I said was it was an excellent distinction that calls forth an already/always understanding by any one who already 'knows' it.

There can't be any distinction between conventional and enlightened experience of reality. That's the point of that poem.

[Dennis Mahar]

There can't be any distinction between conventional and enlightened experience of reality. That's the point of that poem.

That itself is a distinction.
conventional world and world of the buddhas is the same world.

its a matter of distinction either way.
perception.

[Dennis Mahar]

There can't be any distinction between conventional and enlightened experience of reality. That's the point of that poem.

What is meant by distinction is this.

There is 2 ways to know.

by definitions which is the stuff in dictionaries which is assumed to be correct and names entities in a 'set in stone' or concrete manner.
that kind of knowing is parrot knowing.
like a trained monkey.
anyone can recite definitions off the cuff.
you can put a quote up in the public domain and most people will know the quote in the context of a definition.

Is that knowing.
not yet it isn't.

to distinguish a quote or experience it as a distinction is to 'get it'.

the first time a person distinguishes a quote it has the effect of 'newly coming into experience' and a radical shift in perception.
it is grokked in its fullness and doesn't really need explanation.

there are many quotes and some quotes have a measure of possibility for paradigm shifting generation than others.
I thought that quote is an excellent prospect for the purpose.

That's why emptiness needs to be precisely defined in language which is 1/2 the job,
then it has to be taken in, absorbed and grokked like a 100 watt light bulb turned on.

[Dennis Mahar]

seeker,

Yeah it isn't necessary, a bit extreme, but would still be nice for them if that was their thing. Though unless you really can't get away, it's not hard to not care, they could just walk out the door to the nearest patch of grass and sit alone any time if other people were affecting them that much.

But really the path is taken "without having to look out the window."

Well, you agree the 'public self' is an artificial construct, a theoretical self because society is a theoretical construct that a public self fits into. There are many forms of society and each ceaselessly undergoes change forcing the public self to change with it.
A non-theoretical self can arise far from the madding crowd.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I agree, all I mean is that one doesn't need to literally escape 'far away' to be far from the crowd.

[Dennis Mahar]

in the world not of it?

[jupiviv]

That itself is a distinction.
conventional world and world of the buddhas is the same world.

Linguistically, not ontologically.

the first time a person distinguishes a quote it has the effect of 'newly coming into experience' and a radical shift in perception.

What do you mean by "the first time"? When did the person begin?

there are many quotes and some quotes have a measure of possibility for paradigm shifting generation than others.

The great spiritual texts are just useful vocabulary. To my knowledge they can't generate any thoughts in the brain.

That's why emptiness needs to be precisely defined in language which is 1/2 the job,

It's being defined whenever language is used.

[Dennis Mahar]

is enlightenment spoken into existence?
a possibility for language.

you've got the fishbowl and the fish,
and the fish raise questions about the water,
a fish 'gets it' and speaks up.

[jupiviv]

a fish 'gets it' and speaks up.

If it has the power of speech, like humans, then it will use it.

[Dennis Mahar]

so language is in the grip of humans.
stands out from them as a way-shower as in Hakuin's homily.

It's used to describe on the one hand and yet what shows up are preferences, aversions, prejudices in the speaking when listened for.
It's got that unspoken injuction of 'here buddy, enrol in this, this is the way, get on board'.
so, a cool breeze of detachment is afforded in respect to it.

the question implicit in Hakuin's homily shakes down to:
who are you distinct from mind (the house of language).

[Dennis Mahar]

seeker,

Yeah it isn't necessary, a bit extreme, but would still be nice for them if that was their thing. Though unless you really can't get away, it's not hard to not care, they could just walk out the door to the nearest patch of grass and sit alone any time if other people were affecting them that much.

But really the path is taken "without having to look out the window."

Wherever you are appears as diorama-like.
a 3 dimensional theatre.

out in the bush alone for a time gets the experience of being 'swallowed up'.
the assumed cultural identities shed like a snake sheds its skin.
the emporer (ego) has no clothes.

in the big smoke with all the distraction the experience of being 'swallowed up' isn't palpable.
rest assured the culture 'swallows up' it's citizens.
total immersion til you see it.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Yeah but you don't have to be part of it, and when there is some diorama people you can treat them as such.
Retreats within and appears dull-witted, silenced.

[jupiviv]

It's used to describe on the one hand and yet what shows up are preferences, aversions, prejudices in the speaking when listened for.

Even prejudices, when consistent and clearly defined, have truth in them.

the question implicit in Hakuin's homily shakes down to:
who are you distinct from mind (the house of language).

I am my thoughts, which appear as language.