GENIUS FORUMS

What if you're in a war zone?

What if we always are? Peace as illusion created by momentary deafness.

Shell shock.

Kunga wrote:Leyla...

Yes?

Kunga:

Who the fuck said that ?
You empty your mind of thoughts and thinking so you can see clearly.
When there are waves and ripples in a pond, you can't see the bottom.
Thoughts are concepts, concepts are dualistic.

You the are saying that with your belief that one has to stop conceptual thinking to be enlightened. The only concept that you have to stop thinking about to be enlightened is the concept of self. It's the thought of having a self that is dualistic, not the using of concepts. Is not a tree a tree? A dog a dog? Is not love, love? Pat the dog, cut down the tree, love bananas, where's the dualism? Another way of saying this is that thoughts in their pure form are impersonal things (nonduality), it is when we take them personally (apply a person to the thought/attachment/dualism) that we are being ignorant and suffer.

The purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
In order to realize THE TRUTH , you need to stop conceptual thinking.
In order to stop conceptual thinking, you need to quiet the mind.
Quieting the mind can entail many various methods.

Again, the only conceptual thinking that needs to be silenced is that of a self. How do you propose to realize what you call THE TRUTH without concepts?

People "get Enlightened" in various ways.
Enlightenment Is always there...like the sun, when clouds disappear....
Clouds are similar to thoughts, or defilements.

Was Buddha thinking about shit when he became Enlightened ?
NO. He was meditating. When you meditate properly thoughts disappear !

Thoughts are not defilements unless they are clung to as if they inherently exist. We're back to the dualistic notion of a self separate from thinking/reasoning. How the Buddha KNEW he was enlightened if concepts were not present to tell him so?

"In absolute samadhi, in complete falling away of body and mind, there is no reflection and no recollection. In a sense, there is no 'experience' because there is a complete merging of subject and object, or a perfect recognition of already existing non-separation. There is no way of describing what is or was going on."

You say there is no way of describing what is or was going on during absolute samadhi, and yet there is the explanation in plain view: "In absolute samadhi, in complete falling away of body and mind, there is no reflection and no recollection, etc." Regardless of what you hear via your inner ear, call it an insight, call it intuition, call it divine revelation, call it whatever you want, but if you don't reason its truth for yourself, you have memorized mantras, you do not have wisdom.

Leyla Shen wrote:

Whoever says that the purpose of enlightenment is to stop thinking is deluded.

Who the fuck said that ?

The purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
In order to realize THE TRUTH , you need to stop conceptual thinking.

MA said, " Whoever said : The PURPOSE of Enlightenment (is to stop thinking) is deluded. "

I NEVER said THE PURPOSE of Enlightenment was to stop thinking !!!!
I said the purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
And to realize THE TRUTH, conceptual thinking stops.
Why ? The word Enlightenment is a thought-concept for something that is inconceivable. It can only be intuitively realized, or known. The Tao that can be said, is not the Tao. Ineffable Silence.
Otherwise it would be easy to explain (Enlightenment), and easy to attain.
There are many mitigating factors that need to be in place before the "light-bulb" moment happens.

It's easy to intellectually think that everything is ONE.
Everything is energy.
Nothing inherently exists.
Everything is connected and interdependent.

You can read all the books, and think you know something intellectually.
You can THINK THINK THINK TILL YOU TURN PINK (LOL)
No, THINK TILL YOU'RE BLUE !!! LOL

Thinking about it intellectually can bring you close, but still isn't Enlightenment...otherwise we'd all be Enlightened by now.
But if everything is interconnected...and IT IS ALL ONE (All One what? ).
Then Buddha is no different than you or me. And if he got Enlightened, then ALL is Enlightened !!

Everything already is, and it always was, we just haven't realized it yet.
Once we realize what the fuck is going on......

Leyla Shen wrote:

Kunga wrote:Leyla...

Yes?

I was trying to give you an example (the blank space), of no conceptual thought. It is possible !
As far as the "Mirror, mirror...", you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I never said the purpose of Enlightenment was to stop thinking. ("Who the fuck said that").

Leyla Shen wrote:What if you're in a war zone?

I thought about this all day. No conclusive answer. First thing that popped into my head was to try and get out. If that wasn't possible...do whatever it takes to survive . Yes, you need to think of strategies. I wish I was a Ninja .

movingalways wrote:You the are saying that with your belief that one has to stop conceptual thinking to be enlightened. The only concept that you have to stop thinking about to be enlightened is the concept of self.

You are basically saying the same thing.

movingalways wrote:It's the thought of having a self that is dualistic, not the using of concepts.

ALL concepts are dualistic

All/nothing
Concepts/non-conceptual
Are/aren't
Dualistic/non-dualistic

movingalways wrote:Thoughts are not defilements

I said thoughts OR defilements (anger, hatred, past negative karma)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_04.html


Oh, and thoughts too can be defilements:

Lusting after a married man or woman.
Hate-filled thoughts

(you get the picture)

Kunga wrote:

Leyla Shen wrote:

Whoever says that the purpose of enlightenment is to stop thinking is deluded.

Who the fuck said that ?

The purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
In order to realize THE TRUTH , you need to stop conceptual thinking.

MA said, " Whoever said : The PURPOSE of Enlightenment (is to stop thinking) is deluded. "

I NEVER said THE PURPOSE of Enlightenment was to stop thinking !!!!
I said the purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
And to realize THE TRUTH, conceptual thinking stops.
Why ? The word Enlightenment is a thought-concept for something that is inconceivable. It can only be intuitively realized, or known. The Tao that can be said, is not the Tao. Ineffable Silence.
Otherwise it would be easy to explain (Enlightenment), and easy to attain.
There are many mitigating factors that need to be in place before the "light-bulb" moment happens.

It's easy to intellectually think that everything is ONE.
Everything is energy.
Nothing inherently exists.
Everything is connected and interdependent.

You can read all the books, and think you know something intellectually.
You can THINK THINK THINK TILL YOU TURN PINK (LOL)
No, THINK TILL YOU'RE BLUE !!! LOL

Thinking about it intellectually can bring you close, but still isn't Enlightenment...otherwise we'd all be Enlightened by now.
But if everything is interconnected...and IT IS ALL ONE (All One what? ).
Then Buddha is no different than you or me. And if he got Enlightened, then ALL is Enlightened !!

Everything already is, and it always was, we just haven't realized it yet.
Once we realize what the fuck is going on......

Leyla Shen wrote:

Kunga wrote:Leyla...

Yes?

I was trying to give you an example (the blank space), of no conceptual thought. It is possible !
As far as the "Mirror, mirror...", you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I never said the purpose of Enlightenment was to stop thinking. ("Who the fuck said that").

Leyla Shen wrote:What if you're in a war zone?

I thought about this all day. No conclusive answer. First thing that popped into my head was to try and get out. If that wasn't possible...do whatever it takes to survive . Yes, you need to think of strategies. I wish I was a Ninja .

What are you saying, Kunga?

Is there a difference between reasoned (redundant, but necessary given the circumstances) thinking and whatever it is you call "conceptual thinking"?

Leyla Shen wrote:Is there a difference between reasoned (redundant, but necessary given the circumstances) thinking and whatever it is you call "conceptual thinking"?

No (no difference)

All thinking is conceptual .

Can you think without concepts ?

Why do you have to stop thinking to "realize the truth" when the recognition of truth (not to mention appropriate/sane strategising) requires thinking?

Seems to me, Kunga, all that happens when one stops thinking is that they speak and act without making any sense whatsoever.

Leyla Shen wrote:Why do you have to stop thinking to "realize the truth" when the recognition of truth (not to mention appropriate/sane strategising) requires thinking?

Because THE TRUTH is inconceivable and non-conceptual. It's more related to intuition.

How do you know that's the truth?

Leyla Shen wrote:Seems to me, Kunga, all that happens when one stops thinking is that they speak and act without making any sense whatsoever.

And then there are those that think too much, and still sound and act like idiots.

Not by my definition of thinking. I think you should reassess yours.

Leyla Shen wrote:How do you know that's the truth?

Can you explain how a strawberry tastes ?
Can you explain what an orgasm feels like ?

Will it do justice ?


http://www.purifymind.com/BuddhahoodSutra.htm

http://flatbedsutra.com/flatbedsutrazenblogger/?p=2414

Because THE TRUTH is inconceivable and non-conceptual. It's more related to intuition.

How do you know that's the truth?

Leyla Shen wrote:

Because THE TRUTH is inconceivable and non-conceptual. It's more related to intuition.

How do you know that's the truth?

Because others have experienced it and said that. I have no reason to doubt it. To give an example :

Can you see the whole universe ? Wouldn't it be hard to conceive of something you have no idea how incredibly infinite it is ?

Yet you know there is something called THE UNIVERSE, as everyone talks about it. It's "common knowledge".

There's a "ring of truth" to it. It's been photographed, studied, explored....

movingalways wrote:
You the are saying that with your belief that one has to stop conceptual thinking to be enlightened. The only concept that you have to stop thinking about to be enlightened is the concept of self.

Kunga: You are basically saying the same thing.

No I'm not. You said clearly and plainly that one has to stop conceptual thinking to be enlightenment. Check your previous posts. I am saying that one does not stop conceptual thinking when one no longer thinks of self.

Is it not the self who desires enlightenment to be something special, amazing and wonderful, like Dorothy's yellow brick road on the way to see the Wizard? Wisdom (no thought of self) is not special, is not amazing, is not wonderful, which is why so many prefer to remain as Dorothy was before she wakes up.

movingalways wrote:
It's the thought of having a self that is dualistic, not the using of concepts.

Kunga: ALL concepts are dualistic

All/nothing
Concepts/non-conceptual
Are/aren't
Dualistic/non-dualistic

They are only dualistic when your mind is not singularly focused on what is (actually) happening right here, right now. For example, you encounter a dog lying on the road whimpering in pain. Even though cats exist, the dog is not a cat, even though sitting exists, the dog is not sitting, even though couches exist, the dog is not on a couch, even though dogs bark for joy, the dog is not barking for joy. In the land of Oz, in the land of what the self wishes would be so, one might wish the dog was barking for joy and poof, click your magic slippers together and it would bark for joy, but in the land of actuality, in the truth of the moment, the dog is whimpering in pain. The question is as it always is: what will you do? And keeping my question relevant to the subject matter of this thread, how does being in bliss effect or affect your will to do something because of your encounter with the dog in pain?

movingalways wrote:
Thoughts are not defilements

Kunga: I said thoughts OR defilements (anger, hatred, past negative karma)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_04.html

You are cherry picking my words. My thought in its completeness: Thoughts are not defilements unless they are clung to as if they inherently exist." Anger, hatred and past negative karma are all examples of clinging to inherent existence. You can stop giving me links, as I do not read them. Quotes to support your reasoning, yes, but other than that, I am interested only in your reasoning. It is my experience that when one stops being dependent on the words of others that they find the truth they seek.

Kunga: Oh, and thoughts too can be defilements:

Lusting after a married man or woman.
Hate-filled thoughts

(you get the picture)

Again, these are thoughts of having a self, of attachment, of inherent existence so yes, they defile because of ignorance. Until, of course, the defilement of ignorance is removed with wisdom.

It's called a logical abstraction, Kunga, not an "inconceivable, non-conceptual intuition", whatever that is—I mean, really, how else would you know?

Since, like your notion of "the infinite", if whatever it is you are referring to is an "inconceivable, non-conceptual intuition" but not a logical abstraction, you necessarily have every reason to doubt "it" (whatever "it" is) since it's an inconceivable, non-conceptual intuition.

You're talking nonsense. Really, I don't know why you bother talking at all.

You really need to stop clinging to the concept of enlightenment as a feeling akin to orgasmic bliss.

Kunga wrote: MA said, " Whoever said : The PURPOSE of Enlightenment (is to stop thinking) is deluded. "

I NEVER said THE PURPOSE of Enlightenment was to stop thinking !!!!
I said the purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
And to realize THE TRUTH, conceptual thinking stops.
Why ? The word Enlightenment is a thought-concept for something that is inconceivable. It can only be intuitively realized, or known. The Tao that can be said, is not the Tao. Ineffable Silence.
Otherwise it would be easy to explain (Enlightenment), and easy to attain.
There are many mitigating factors that need to be in place before the "light-bulb" moment happens.

It is true that one cannot BE a strawberry or a dog or a tree. This realization is the Tao of ineffable silence.

The mind that thinks of strawberry or dog or tree is itself also of the Tao, the Tao that is not silent, the Tao that is spoken.

They are different aspects of the Tao. You are the thinking aspect.

Believe it or not, this simple truth of the Tao that does not conceptualize and the Tao that does conceptualize is the light bulb moment.

This simple truth of the two aspects of the Tao is easy to understand but not easy to accept. Why? Because the self wants to be more than "just" the thinking will of the Tao. The self wants more, always more...

movingalways wrote:They are different aspects of the Tao. You are the thinking aspect.

Believe it or not, this simple truth of the Tao that does not conceptualize and the Tao that does conceptualize is the light bulb moment.

This simple truth of the two aspects of the Tao is easy to understand but not easy to accept. Why? Because the self wants to be more than "just" the thinking will of the Tao. The self wants more, always more...

Great stuff Pam. "It" wants more and loves to downplay even the most natural, gently structured type of thought as being some kind of hindrance to the desired state. It's a strange opposition to some "other self" - perhaps more like an allergic reaction as I'm sure many people are pretty tired of chasing down fruitless lines of thought with all its worries, loops and alienation. While it's understandable to distrust the ability of the mind to deceive (but that would be all of it and not just reasoning though) -- there's still available this great ability of the mind to reason proportionally, naturally, unforced and seemingly spontaneous, like undisturbed breathing, light or heavy it may be.

movingalways wrote:

Kunga wrote: MA said, " Whoever said : The PURPOSE of Enlightenment (is to stop thinking) is deluded. "

I NEVER said THE PURPOSE of Enlightenment was to stop thinking !!!!
I said the purpose of Enlightenment is to realize THE TRUTH .
And to realize THE TRUTH, conceptual thinking stops.
Why ? The word Enlightenment is a thought-concept for something that is inconceivable. It can only be intuitively realized, or known. The Tao that can be said, is not the Tao. Ineffable Silence.
Otherwise it would be easy to explain (Enlightenment), and easy to attain.
There are many mitigating factors that need to be in place before the "light-bulb" moment happens.

It is true that one cannot BE a strawberry or a dog or a tree. This realization is the Tao of ineffable silence.

The mind that thinks of strawberry or dog or tree is itself also of the Tao, the Tao that is not silent, the Tao that is spoken.

They are different aspects of the Tao. You are the thinking aspect.

Believe it or not, this simple truth of the Tao that does not conceptualize and the Tao that does conceptualize is the light bulb moment.

This simple truth of the two aspects of the Tao is easy to understand but not easy to accept. Why? Because the self wants to be more than "just" the thinking will of the Tao. The self wants more, always more...

The self is fine with being the thinking will of the Tao. It is a very prestigious title. The self can settle for less. Diebert is fine with being an intelligent man, for example.

What the self is not fine with is being a misconception.

Leyla Shen wrote:You really need to stop clinging to the concept of enlightenment as a feeling akin to orgasmic bliss.

How did you come to that conclusion ?