The Sexes

[Kunga]

The mental health of someone who writes is also something that shouldn't be overlooked.....usually someone that is mentally ill has very ill thoughts about others. In all my readings of wise sages...I never got the feeling they were mentally ill

[Orenholt]

In only one of those lines does David use the word "women" instead of "woman", which is a point that you seem to have a hard time dealing with.. the use of the word "woman" is indicative of the embodiment of the cultural personality developed by society for women. Both men and women place high value in this personality, and more women than not try to be it as much as they can, it is a life goal for many of them. It is birthed from egotism and ignorance, and indeed worships our animalistic nature as biological creatures. I doubt that any of us "hate" women (or men) for it, it is simply the way nature has developed us. In not hating it, we can observe it in an honest fashion and make rational decisions regarding it's role in consciousness.

Woman/women/the feminine... it all refers to the same idea, people who are unconscious, and according to him, more often ARE biological females. Perhaps I take issue with it because I know it does not describe me or my female friends or lovers much other than the bodies we have been assigned and I dislike that association being made because it's not true for us.

I don't think that David Quinn necessarily "hates" women but I feel that he has some dislike toward them. It seems as though maybe he wrote that essay partially for himself to rid himself of HIS attachment to this idea of "woman" that he held in high regard. As I said in my original post it seems he's conflicted about women because of his relationship with his mother and feeling rejected by her.

I agree with most of what you've said, these things are contributing factors. But you have to admit, the fact that you are able to see through the BS and refuse to let it stand for you does two things, it admits that 1) the stereotype does indeed exist as a social construct, and 2)that you paint yourself as an exception to the stereotype. Your example doesn't speak for why most women fall for it.

1.) Yes, that's true but only because people try to make it true in their ignorance.
2.) Yes, I do think that I am something of an exception. I do have some vices that could be deemed "feminine" as anyone else but over all I do not accept what I was told to be. I think many women fall for it because they feel they have no choice because of "consensus reality" just as many boys become what they are because of "consensus reality". Perhaps most humans are submissive and sheep like by nature (to a degree) and it just so happens that a lot of men submit to society's will by being aggressive and competitive. Surely you don't think of the average frat boy smashing beer cans on his forehead as the male paradigm. He behaves stupidly because it's what his peers allow them to be. Just as women behave stupidly because it's what their peers allow them to be. I suppose more children have positive relationships with their parents until maybe the mid teen years when they are struggling to grow independent. I did not have a positive relationship with my parents early on. I saw my father as being the ruthless dictator and my mother as the weakling follower. I hated my father for his absurd threats of harm to myself and I certainly didn't want to be like my mother, damned to be under a man's thumb all my life. I figured if these were my only choices I'd rather be a leader than a follower. I think most little girls who have positive relationships with their parents see their father as a protector and want to find a man like him someday and their mother as a role model.

The mental health of someone who writes is also something that shouldn't be overlooked.....usually someone that is mentally ill has very ill thoughts about others. In all my readings of wise sages...I never got the feeling they were mentally ill

What are you implying?

[Kunga]

What are you implying?

Maybe iI should of said "state of mind" , as we evolve our views change.....when I read Quinns WOMAN , either it was me with my mentally il mind, or him with his mentally ill mind...but something was really menally ill to me, when i read it....lol. It was so hard for me to read, because it was filled with distortions and lies (it seemed to me), i was repulsed to read such hatred and......womanly gossip !!!!

I normally read non-fiction.
I don't like wasting my time reading junk.

[Getoriks]

I too at first got caught up in the little details of the psychological analysis. It took me some time to realize that it was not even about women, and furthermore, was not even about woman, but that it was about something much more magical. For most minds, Quinn's work, like all good spiritual works, requires successive readings over time, for there are several layers of meaning and purpose to the work. It is similar to how most minds initially think Plato's Republic is about politics, when really, it has nothing to do with politics at all, but is a secret guidebook for how to become enlightened. Likewise, Quinn's essay isn't really about the inferiority of woman when it comes to becoming enlightened, but a secret guidebook for how to become enlightened.

Now obviously Plato's Republic does contain political truths about democracies, oligarchies, and so forth, and the value of these should not be overlooked, and obviously Quinn's Exposition does contain psychological truths about the very real inferiority of woman when it comes to becoming enlightened, and the value of this should not be overlooked. But if these learned observations are all one takes from these works, then one is nothing more than a goofy scholar, a blind moron. They do not realize that these works are not really talking about the politics of the states, or about the psychology of the sexes, but that they are talking about something much, much more important: enlightenment, eternal truths, great spiritual freedom, and furthermore, that they are talking to you personally, and telling you how to reach that higher place.

I offer these essays as a guide to those who wish to be free of woman in their attempt to live the philosophic life. Woman is a plethora of contradictions, an infinity of finitudes, which must be understood if one is to succeed in relinquishing the ego. For the study of woman (and man) is really the study of the ego and how it manifests in the world.

This work is not a scientific or philosophical thesis aimed at converting all and sundry with irrefutable evidence. It is written only for those few individuals who have cultivated a serious interest in ultimate truth. Everyone else are advised to read no further. But it will be these few precious individuals, male or female, who upon reading these lines will clasp their hands with a joy of having met a long-lost friend.

[Kunga]

I offer these essays as a guide to those who wish to be free of woman

I love being who I am.
I am a perfect blend of male/female attributes.

[Dan Rowden]

Sadly I won't have any time to address this thread for another day or so, but what Getoriks posted is very important. Also, David Quinn most certainly doesn't have any hatred for "woman". What concerns him, and me, is the effects the feminine dimension of consciousness has on people and how pervasive it is. It's also easy - and dangerous - to think the content of the paradigm doesn't fit with one's personal experience when one may have limited that experience to people who don't fit it that well (i.e. one has tended to hang out with those who are already a little above the average in terms of awareness). There is also the fact that it takes a fair amount of philosophical development to begin to recognise it for what it is and where it properly applies. It's about consciousness and enlightenment and nothing else. Applying the ideas to society more broadly can be useful and instructive to a degree, but it's wrong to get stuck in that mode and thinks it's about some tedious "gender conflict" sort of poppycock.

At bottom, it's about you and no-one else.

[Kunga]

What concerns him, and me, is the effects the feminine dimension of consciousness has on people and how pervasive it is

Would it have anything to do with all the violence in this world ?

[Pincho Paxton]

This thread is growing faster than a thread by a man.

That's one Paradox of the thread itself.

[Kunga]

This thread is growing faster than a thread by a man.

That's one Paradox of the thread itself.

If you can figure out the Growing Universe Pincho.....you should be able to figure this growing little thread :)

(holes & fillers)

[Orenholt]

Dan Rowden and Getoriks,

I understand that he's saying that these certain characteristics and behaviors are the problem but why assign them to a gender/sex?
He could have just as easily said "African American minds" instead of "feminine minds" and surely he would be called a white supremacist.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I too at first got caught up in the little details of the psychological analysis. It took me some time to realize that it was not even about women, and furthermore, was not even about woman, but that it was about something much more magical. For most minds, Quinn's work, like all good spiritual works, requires successive readings over time, for there are several layers of meaning and purpose to the work. It is similar to how most minds initially think Plato's Republic is about politics, when really, it has nothing to do with politics at all, but is a secret guidebook for how to become enlightened.

Could you provide a pointer here or elsewhere in a new thread on how to read Plato's Republic as a magical guidebook to enlightenment? Quinn gave a proper introduction to his work but Plato didn't really.

[Dennis Mahar]

I understand that he's saying that these certain characteristics and behaviors are the problem but why assign them to a gender/sex?

Yeah, it's a mistake.

The correct distinction is:

void and drama
or

stillness and agitation or such descriptors as a way of being-in-the-world.

[Dan Rowden]

What concerns him, and me, is the effects the feminine dimension of consciousness has on people and how pervasive it is

Would it have anything to do with all the violence in this world ?

The violence in the world is a symptom/expression of it, yes.

[Kunga]

What concerns him, and me, is the effects the feminine dimension of consciousness has on people and how pervasive it is

Would it have anything to do with all the violence in this world ?

The violence in the world is a symptom/expression of it, yes.

I don't associate violence with femininity...it's more of a male/masculine phenomena .

[Dan Rowden]

Yeah, I knew you were going there, and it's wrong to do so. Tell me, are soldiers inherently more psychologically violent because they're the ones whose duty it is to enact violence on everyone else's behalf?

[Kunga]

Yeah, I knew you were going there, and it's wrong to do so. Tell me, are soldiers inherently more psychologically violent because they're the ones whose duty it is to enact violence on everyone else's behalf?

No, it's not wrong to expose the truth. You know yourself that men/males/masculinity entails having the hormone testosterone, and that testosterone is what aggression, and dominance comes from. Females being more passive and non-aggressive are less prone to violence. So how can femininity be the cause for violence ?

You were afraid I'd go there because you are having a hard time wiggling out of this one....lol

[Bobo]

There's a difference between being unable of being violent and opposing violence.

[Dan Rowden]

Firstly, Kunga, you didn't answer my question. Secondly, when I get to addressing this thread properly I'll take your argument by its scrawny throat and rip it to shreds right in front of you.

[Kunga]

Firstly, you didn't answer my question. Secondly, when I get to addressing this thread properly I'll take your argument by its scrawny throat and rip it to shreds right in front of you.

Yes, I did answer your soilder question with the statement I made about testosterone....that was my way of addressing it. Why do they have men in the infantry instead of women ????

Men are more violent and agressive (only because of the male hormone testosterone) ....lol...you funny honey bun

[Dennis Mahar]

the cause of violence is ignorance pure and simple.

[Kunga]

the cause of violence is ignorance pure and simple.

true...but don't you think hormones have something to do with it ?

[Getoriks]

Could you provide a pointer here or elsewhere in a new thread on how to read Plato's Republic as a magical guidebook to enlightenment? Quinn gave a proper introduction to his work but Plato didn't really.

Sometimes when I say that the Republic is not really about politics, an academic or an academically trained mind will reply, "Well, yeah, I agree. It's at least half, if not primarily, about ethics." And while that is a little bit closer, it's still no where near the truth of the matter. I gave the Republic a couple superficial readings during my very late teens, but it was not until my very early twenties while bored on a vacation in Mexico that I was laying in a hotel room giving it a more in-depth read. It was then that I started to gain a vague sense that there was something very odd and mysterious, perhaps even mystical and Zen-like, about the dialogue.....

About a year later, after much searching, I finally found two Plato experts (and sages?) who really helped: Pierre Grimes of openingmind.com and Norman D. Livergood of hermes-press.com and a few years after that, found this community.

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A lecture by Grimes:

Wisdom Literature in the Platonic Tradition
Copyright 1997 Pierre Grimes
Pierre Grimes, PhD
Plato's Republic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWuTir0L ... 1FEF60AD66
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An essay by Grimes:

The Dialectic in Plato's Republic

Philosophical Midwifery as a mode of psychotherapy is based, in part, upon Plato's rationalism and his dialectic, both of which are explored in depth in his Republic. In the Republic, he builds an imaginary city-state as a contemplative model for the philosopher's "ascension to reality" (521D), producing in him "the image and likeness of God" (501C), it is this ascent that is called true philosophy [spiritual, not academic] (52D) whether the political reality of that city-state exists now or in the future is of no concern to the philosopher (592B).

http://openingmind.com/pdfs/010_The_Dia ... _Plato.pdf

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An essay by Livergood:

Reading As Dialectical Interchange

The material you study suddenly or slowly begins to seem entirely new to you -- as though you've never read it before or at least never understood it before. You begin to have "insight" into its real, deeper meaning. When re-reading a philosophical masterpiece, you experience it is an entirely new book. You can hardly believe that there is all this startling new meaning in a work you believed you had previously so thoroughly, so exhaustively mined. Of course, the newness is in your capability of comprehension which has evolved and expanded in the interim. This is so much the case, that one test of your continuing spiritual growth is the new and enlarged meaning you uncover at each reading of a masterpiece. If a philosophical masterwork seems to have no new meaning, if it seems stale and lackluster, confined to meaning you had previously discovered, then there is likely some blockage present in your spiritual development.

http://www.hermes-press.com/reading_dialectic.htm

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[Dennis Mahar]

the cause of violence is ignorance pure and simple.

[Kunga]

the cause of violence is ignorance pure and simple.

Do you think it's ignorant to defend (violently) a helpless person being attacked ?

If you saw a woman on a bus being gang raped by 6 men, and you had a gun...would you use that gun to defend the woman or just ignore what was happening ?

[Dennis Mahar]

dependent arising