A Strategy For Sages to Survive as Travelling Vagrants

[brokenhead]

I do. It's both heaven and hell. It's hell because their are unseen entities with evil intent who confuse the minds of mankind deliberately, and foment war and retard progress. It's hell because we are like prisoners here, prisoners with total amnesia, who cannot figure out our situation in almost any way. It's hell because greed is the prime directive, and love of power and manipulation, and lies to accomplish all that, and lies for the pleasure of lying.

This is nonsense, Iolaus. You cannot possibly believe this. Are you bipolar? Heaven and hell? If you cannot figure out your situation in almost any way, and you were a prisoner with total amnesia, how could anyone communicate with you?

[Alex Jacob]

Iolaus' vision of things seems to me the quintessence of the Christian view:

"I do. It's both heaven and hell. It's hell because their are unseen entities with evil intent who confuse the minds of mankind deliberately, and foment war and retard progress. It's hell because we are like prisoners here, prisoners with total amnesia, who cannot figure out our situation in almost any way. It's hell because greed is the prime directive, and love of power and manipulation, and lies to accomplish all that, and lies for the pleasure of lying. It's hell because people don't see this, don't see the situation as it is right before their eyes and are lost in endless myriads of wrong ideas."

But, you can shift this view too. Instead of seeing it as a prison, you can see it as a half-way house, one step above the last step, an emurging from one level to another, an ascent, and always tending toward something better and more awake.

[Carl G]

I do. It's both heaven and hell. It's hell because their are unseen entities with evil intent who confuse the minds of mankind deliberately, and foment war and retard progress. It's hell because we are like prisoners here, prisoners with total amnesia, who cannot figure out our situation in almost any way. It's hell because greed is the prime directive, and love of power and manipulation, and lies to accomplish all that, and lies for the pleasure of lying.

This is nonsense, Iolaus. You cannot possibly believe this. Are you bipolar? Heaven and hell? If you cannot figure out your situation in almost any way, and you were a prisoner with total amnesia, how could anyone communicate with you?

Do we communicate with each other, really? How about with ourselves? Do we know who we are? Are most of us not prisoners in almost every way -- to cause and effect, to government power brokers, to the limitations of being in a body?

Can you figure out your situation in almost every way? What is meant by 'situation?' Iolaus' post reminds me of a Gurdjieffian term, which she describes pretty well: The Terror of the Situation.

[Carl G]

But, you can shift this view too. Instead of seeing it as a prison, you can see it as a half-way house, one step above the last step, an emurging from one level to another, an ascent, and always tending toward something better and more awake.

Alex, you're going all New Age gooey on us here. The idea of ascension is good, it is indeed an escape route from one's prison, but, man, where do you get the "always tending toward something better." Hate to sound a blue note, but let's be real, entropy is the fate of some poor souls.

[brokenhead]

I do. It's both heaven and hell. It's hell because their are unseen entities with evil intent who confuse the minds of mankind deliberately, and foment war and retard progress. It's hell because we are like prisoners here, prisoners with total amnesia, who cannot figure out our situation in almost any way. It's hell because greed is the prime directive, and love of power and manipulation, and lies to accomplish all that, and lies for the pleasure of lying.

This is nonsense, Iolaus. You cannot possibly believe this. Are you bipolar? Heaven and hell? If you cannot figure out your situation in almost any way, and you were a prisoner with total amnesia, how could anyone communicate with you?

Do we communicate with each other, really? How about with ourselves? Do we know who we are? Are most of us not prisoners in almost every way -- to cause and effect, to government power brokers, to the limitations of being in a body?

Can you figure out your situation in almost every way? What is meant by 'situation?' Iolaus' post reminds me of a Gurdjieffian term, which she describes pretty well: The Terror of the Situation.

[Sting]We are spirits... in a material world... are spirits... in a material world[/Sting]

Carl, if we are "prisoners" to cause and effect, what's outside the prison? Before I try breaking out, I want to know what kind of world there is out there, once we are free from cause and effect.

Government power brokers? The world needs them. Are we their prisoners? If so, they give me a hell of a lot of priviliges.

Limitations of being in a body?

That's why God gave us drugs, my friend. Just between us adults. Other than that:

[Sting]We are spirits... in a material world... [/Sting]

[Carl G]

Busted wrote:

Carl, if we are "prisoners" to cause and effect, what's outside the prison? Before I try breaking out, I want to know what kind of world there is out there, once we are free from cause and effect.

That's interesting, you need to know what's on the other side before you consider breaking out. 'Fraid that means you're probably best suited for prison life, m' man. No shame in that, though. It's all right.

[Iolaus]

Brokenhead, why such a name?

This is nonsense, Iolaus. You cannot possibly believe this. Are you bipolar?

A person reading what I wrote might even conclude I was unhappy, or conflicted or something. But it isn't so. Indeed, I dwell in heaven much of the time.
But I'm calling it like I see it, the world situation, the human situation. One doesn't have to be unhappy to see straight. In fact, I don't wonder if perhaps I've got one foot firmly enough in heaven to allow myself to see without the rose colored glasses. Or maybe it's PMS! PMS can be highly valuable if you know how to use it and stop thinking of it as something to resist. It can take you through a dark night of the soul, if you're willing to take the hike into the caverns.

Heaven and hell?

Yeah, I had to mention heaven because it would be quite untrue to say that this life is hell, which it absolutely isn't! This is a marvelous garden of Eden, all is perfection, God is everywhere, divinity and holiness permeate every molecule and wonders never cease.

If you cannot figure out your situation in almost any way, and you were a prisoner with total amnesia, how could anyone communicate with you?

Oh, we can talk about stuff in the prison system, but like you said, we don't even know what's out there. Think about that. We know nothing! If we don't know what's out there then we really don't know what sort of a universe this is, what is going on, why, where we came from and how, and whether there is some sort of purpose or plan. And this, I think, is one of the strongest hell-marks, a clue that gives away our true situation. Everyone imagines hell as this children's story in which you know exactly where you are and why, but doesn't it make more sense that confusion, utter confusion, would be part of the hell picture? The bars of hell have to be in the mind, you know, and to keep minds imprisoned, the less knowledge and the more confusion, the more dead ends in the labyrinth, the better.

It's diabolical, I tell you!

Isn't it fantastic, that the inmates of hell don't even know they're there? I got a clue to this from a movie called What Dreams May Come, in which the wife goes to hell because she committed suicide - but she does not even know she is dead much less that she is in hell. It is all very dreamlike and she does not question her bizarre new surroundings, nor can she really recognize her husband (who dramatically comes to save her but almost gets sucked in) or respond to his arguments.

Alex,

Iolaus' vision of things seems to me the quintessence of the Christian view:

There is that, but I came to it very circuitously, many years after leaving all formal religion behind. And, when I was a Christian, I could not see these things. I could not accept it or handle it.

But, you can shift this view too. Instead of seeing it as a prison, you can see it as a half-way house, one step above the last step, an emerging from one level to another, an ascent, and always tending toward something better and more awake.

Absolutely, I'm all about the breakout plan. I mean, but you can't be delusional about your situation and get out of it. A first step is surely to at least take stock of the situation somewhat realistically. It's like a prerequisite, a necessary step.

About the half-way house - I call it the vestibule of hell, because Dante said that agnostics would be in the vestibule of hell. Maybe it was agnostics...anyway, some sort of mild sinners were going to be in the vestibule of hell and I have always liked the word 'vestibule.' And I thought, this whole situation here is the vestibule of hell. You can wander over to the hell door and get a blast from the furnace, or you can look out the paradise door and see beautiful fluttering butterflies, swaying daisies singing lazy songs beneath the sun.

It's a searing, lovely epic drama about the journey home, the beautiful journey home, a blind bride led into the bridal chamber of the Lord.
It's all about faith.

Carl,

Do we know who we are?

I don't, and the more pertinent question is, do we know what we are? I certainly don't. I've been seeking an answer inside for a long time now, and I draw a total blank. I'm in here, but what am I? What am I made of? What sort of a thing am I?

What is meant by 'situation?' Iolaus' post reminds me of a Gurdjieffian term, which she describes pretty well: The Terror of the Situation.

That's interesting. What I mean by it is this: I realized a few years back that we don't know anything. We have no north star, no compass point, we just don't know where we are, what we are, why we are, how we are, or who we are. Does that pretty well cover it?

Like little bunny rabbits, we find ourselves in a sunny meadow with other creatures like ourselves who to all practical purposes appear to be real, and we assume they are. We are comforted, and kept from going mad (and kept from figuring out our situation) by the sunshine and the other creatures.

But it is a peculiar kind of darkness, a light that shows us nothing, a light that reveals certain things but not the important things. A light that obscures our total darkness.

entropy is the fate of some poor souls.

Maybe. But how do you know?

That's why God gave us drugs, my friend. Just between us adults.

Very true, although my best knowledge has come via natural insight. I like to combine both.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Iolaus,

Do we know what we are? I certainly don't. I've been seeking an answer inside for a long time now, and I draw a total blank. I'm in here, but what am I? What am I made of? What sort of a thing am I?

Yes, these are elusive questions: You could come up with answers, but they are always incomplete. You could say that we are biological beings, with some degree of sentience, made of molecules, and we seem to possess a dualistic sensory framework to perceive the world. Our sensory framework of pleasure and pain, results in likes, dislikes and values in general. Our sensory system is what gives raise to the possibility of an advanced morality in the first place.

However, on the other hand, through closer inspection we know there is really no molecule as such, or even really material as such. It is very difficult to isolate anything down and totally identify it. Empirical Science is based on fuzzy half-true observations. We are definitely able to perceive patterns and make generalizations about what we observe, but a separate isolated thing is no more absolute than the Easter Bunny, and that is the problem we run into. A thing is relative and based on the observer’s subjective decisions to draw boundaries. This makes reality a little fuzzy, a little difficult to pin-down, almost dream-like, and why one finds oneself in a state of unknowing emptiness. Reality is like one giant question mark, and the human consciousness is left holding the bag.

And then there is the question of immortality. You see, there is a probability that consciousness totally ends at death, as consciousness seems to be housed independently in the organism, but we have no way of proving this absolutely. It is equally valid to throw out the possibility that there is transcendence of enlightened consciousness into some sort of higher plane, that there exists some sort of metaphysical hierarchy. However, there is a third possibility that technology might eventually transform the biological being into an immortal being in the here and now, but the present beings are mortal. That is also a possibility. But how can we confirm any of these theories? We cannot. We are left with uncertainty…

We are indeed born into a world that doesn’t give all the answers - just the answers that are necessary to evade ego-inflicted suffering. We can make our existence a bit more comfortable through wisdom, but we are left with a many unanswered questions that are difficult to find solutions to with our present empirical methods.

[Iolaus]

Carl? Alex? Brokenhead?

It seems every time a conversation gets interesting, people drop it. Are my interests so different from others?
There are endless fruitless arguments with airheads and contrarians.
Or are my points so utterly true and valid that there is nothing to add?
Am I am amazing as I think I am?


_____________________________________________________
Ryan,

You have written a great post to which I find it hard to add, yet I am nonplussed by your other thread, in which you speak of seeking wisdom via thinking of the body as a bag of pus and filth (believe me, if it were, you'd be in the emergency room getting IV antibiotics).

That is all so silly, and so very old hat! The buddhists have tried it and the christians monks tried it, and it just leads to neurosis so far as I can see.

Anyone who speaks thusly is definitely in one of the labyrinths of hell. You may need to make a jail break.

Now, what do you mean that consciousness seems to be housed independently of the organism? I think so, but you are more leaning toward consciousness ending at death, no?

I'm not interested in artificially outwitting reality via an immortality that depends upon technology. So there would always be some fear and vulnerability.

It's reality I'm after. A lover in pursuit...

[Carl G]

Iolaus wrote:

Do we know who we are?

I don't, and the more pertinent question is, do we know what we are? I certainly don't. I've been seeking an answer inside for a long time now, and I draw a total blank. I'm in here, but what am I? What am I made of? What sort of a thing am I?

Who, what, same difference, no? I am surprised that one as you who is so interested still draws "a total blank." Get into some sweat lodges, sister. Do a vision quest. Seek ones who can help you connect with what/who you are. Find ways to come to grips with the questions you have, and then the answers will begin to come.

What is meant by 'situation?' Iolaus' post reminds me of a Gurdjieffian term, which she describes pretty well: The Terror of the Situation.

That's interesting. What I mean by it is this: I realized a few years back that we don't know anything. We have no north star, no compass point, we just don't know where we are, what we are, why we are, how we are, or who we are. Does that pretty well cover it?

It has to do with "seeing reality upside down" and with the machine-like qualities that dominate people, where everything is a reaction, and nothing is done from actual will.

From here:
“seeing reality upside-down” refers to a kind of perceptual inversion, causing humans to fixate only on the physical plane as real, and ignore the greater realities accessible to objective consciousness, where they would have clearly seen their enslaved condition , i.e. the “terror of their situation.” Furthermore, the enhanced organ capacities for pleasure and enjoyment perhaps provided a kind of tranquilizing balm, which then manifested as addictive overdevelopment of craving that we know as egotism, vanity, conceit, self-importance, greed and the like.

Like little bunny rabbits, we find ourselves in a sunny meadow with other creatures like ourselves who to all practical purposes appear to be real, and we assume they are. We are comforted, and kept from going mad (and kept from figuring out our situation) by the sunshine and the other creatures.

Sort of, yes.

But it is a peculiar kind of darkness, a light that shows us nothing, a light that reveals certain things but not the important things. A light that obscures our total darkness.

I don't happen to believe we have no north star or compass point. My experience is that there are such guiding systems and points of reference available for those who seek them.

entropy is the fate of some poor souls.

Maybe. But how do you know?

The Laws of cause and effect create karma.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Iolaus,

Now, what do you mean that consciousness seems to be housed independently of the organism? I think so, but you are more leaning toward consciousness ending at death, no?

Consciousness as we know it is dependent on a brain, but then there is always the possibility of a transcendence consciousness that we don’t know about. However there is also the possibility of a total ending of consciousness at death. Honestly, I haven’t made up my mind. If the universe is infinite, and reality is very elusive as far as pinning down things in concerned, then the universe could all be made up of some sort of higher mind. However, it would be a mind that has no direct impact in this world, but merely makes up the environment of the world itself. Who knows, or the other possibility is that this life is just be a fleeting moment of suffering and confusion that ends in a split second as far as the life of the universe is concerned. How do we know for Sure? Do you see the dilemma here?

It is a very difficult one to prove empirically.

I'm not interested in artificially outwitting reality via an immortality that depends upon technology. So there would always be some fear and vulnerability.

You don’t have to do anything, it might be an inevitable consequence of technological acceleration in general. My other theory is that we are just mortal beings that are preparing the universe to become totally consciousness and immortal, through the aid of technology…who knows really.

Technology might be able to replicate the biological organism, but not be subject to the same laws of degeneration, gravity and all the rest of it. A technological organism could probably keep replicating damaged organs and tissues indefinitely without aging at all.

[Alex Jacob]

From Carl Gustav's Gurdieff site:

"These two answers reflect a conviction that the underlying causes of war are cosmic-planetary in nature, of which humans are more or less completely unconscious, and over which they have very little or no control. It is possible, but difficult, for individuals to undergo transformations of their psyche, through “conscious labor and intentional suffering”, and, one might add, through psychospiritual yogic and mystical practices, by which they can awaken to their spiritual essence and liberate themselves from the thralldom of unconsciousness. In my own comparative studies of transformative experiences, described in the book The Unfolding Self (Metzner, 1998), I found that the catalyst for the most profound life-changing and worldview-changing turning-points was coming close to confronting one’s own mortality, either through near-death experiences (NDEs), or through the death of a loved one. The death-rebirth Mystery ritual celebrations of ancient times, as well as certain shamanic initiations may have provided this kind of awakening. Psychedelic experiences can provide this kind of insight and awakening, given the appropriate preparation and guidance."

Clearly, we need to reestablish a sort of neo-Egyptian cult, perhaps along the lines of DH Lawrence in The Man Who Died, where we can, with the help of massive doses of power-plants (with lots of 'preparation and guidance'), really tune-in to our mortality (in just a little while we're all going to be dead dead DEAD!), and in this way change mankind's destiny.

We shall bring our carefully prepared initiates into the Tomb of Death (tripping madly) where everything is dark and murky and its like a living temple of Mexican Day of the Dead, and the skulls all talk and they recognize the initiates and interrogate them about all aspects of their life, their loves, their desires, their sex life, and while at first it is sort of comic and wacky, it gets progressively dark and horrid but also personally and psychologically dangerous, and blood starts dripping from the ceiling and the music is all Bach organworks and Aeolian harps, and then the walking dead arrive and begin to grab at the initiate, saying Become one with us! Just let us touch you! And so many other horrid things.

But then, up above, seemingly through a chink in the cold stone of the Tomb, a vibrant and gold-colored light appears which is made to seem like Life itself, and Hallelujah They Didn't Forget me!, with redemptive tears, and a mysteriously beautiful singing or perhaps the sound of East Indian flute from far off, and after much threatening and all the Opressiveness of Death (which now appears as absolutely real and the dying scream and writhe and beg to be put out of their misery), the initiate is made to pass through a small opening that s/he has to squeeze through as if through the birth canal, it takes hours, and thusly enters a New Heaven and a New Earth, and drinks the Living Water from cold springs and walks on God's Green Earth under the diamond eye of the Sun in supernal light among singing flowers who also greet him and know his name, and recite mantras of happiness and completeness...

And then all the Symbols of Redemption shall be presented in an exquisite Psychedelic Easter Procession with the lithe dancing boys and girls, and white horses decorated with rainbow weavings and sunflowers! And there'll be Baptismal Founts of running cool waters like out of some explorer's diary, and the initiate will swim naked (still utterly tripping) in the Pond of Life, and when all that's done she shall be given New Raiment to wear, and a New Name, and a New Mission in living which will be determined through reading bird omens in the sky...

[Well, y'all get the picture].

...and then on Monday he or she will have to go back to work again at the Factory, and what happens after that is anyone's guess. Myself though, I'm optimistic...

[Iolaus]

Carl,

Get into some sweat lodges, sister. Do a vision quest. Seek ones who can help you connect with what/who you are. Find ways to come to grips with the questions you have, and then the answers will begin to come.

I have made one such attempt. Need more.
According to the Buddhists and new age enlightened ones, the answer is that there is no one.
What answers have you come up with?

“seeing reality upside-down” refers to a kind of perceptual inversion, causing humans to fixate only on the physical plane as real, and ignore the greater realities accessible to objective consciousness, where they would have clearly seen their enslaved condition , i.e. the “terror of their situation.”

Well, yes.

I don't happen to believe we have no north star or compass point. My experience is that there are such guiding systems and points of reference available for those who seek them.

Yes, perhaps it isn't quite accurate or honest of me to speak this way, for it is but one of my moods, and one which I have in many ways moved past. I do indeed have a fledgling experience of much guidance and help - but it is unseen, uses other senses and modes of communication; I'm still a novice.

The Laws of cause and effect create karma.

The reply is too cryptic. Why shouldn't the souls move out of their ignorance eventually? Is there a time constraint?
_____________________________________

Ryan,

Consciousness as we know it is dependent on a brain, but then there is always the possibility of a transcendence consciousness that we don’t know about.

You speak with a confidence just like certain materialist scientists. You need to read the other side. There is a lot of evidence of a transcendent consciousness, just not the sort that they want. I am of the opinion that these positions are held primarily by preference, by personal agenda, and not by evidence. Because there is a lot of evidence.

hen the universe could all be made up of some sort of higher mind. However, it would be a mind that has no direct impact in this world, but merely makes up the environment of the world itself.

Well this would be a kind of deist position, but I think it is untenable. All the best evidence does not point to such a separatist reality. It may be that consciousness is all there is.

Who knows, or the other possibility is that this life is just be a fleeting moment of suffering and confusion that ends in a split second as far as the life of the universe is concerned. How do we know for Sure? Do you see the dilemma here?

Why do you emphasize suffering so much? Is that your reality? Do you know some people are enjoying themselves tremendously, and I myself have far more joy than I used to and I think it is a matter of elevated consciousness, that slowly has rebuilt my life around a better mindset. Or maybe it's just that life begins at 40!

It is a very difficult one to prove empirically.

I tend to be one of the few who seriously holds out for empirical proofs, but I also do not think you can wait for that. There are other modes of perception, the human mind has vast capabilities, and our usual mode of perception is what I call the default mode. It's the one used by bunny rabbits, so far as I know, although I think even animals have some greater perceptual capacities, and less resistance to them than we do.

Look, people who have had things like NDEs have no doubts and no fears. They have experienced for themselves something that you have not. Just because you're color blind is no reason to disbelieve those who have seen.
____________________________-

Alex,

Clearly, we need to reestablish a sort of neo-Egyptian cult,

I agree. Our puritanical society frowns, but it should be covered under religious freedom. There is a good website to check out, called egodeath.com.

I've read up on this, and on the idea that our religions are all pretty much founded on such plants and practices, and I think it is probably true. Instead of a useless little wafer, the holy communion should be a dried plant I won't name, very crispy and breadlike.

Just because of my particular interest in death and immortality, I sought out the chance to take a certain plant, one which is supposed to specifically take you through death, but it isn't always predictable. Perhaps the dose was too small, or the time not right. I think I needed to make acquaintance with the Being housed in the plant, before the more serious journey. Plus, I was very stressed at the time. So what happened was that I had an amazing experience in which a supremely benevolent force took me by the hand and in a matter of hours healed me both psychically and physically and left me high for a week. I love that Being!

But I did not see death.

I tried again but overcooked and killed the spirit.
But you have reminded me, and Carl as well.

[Carl G]

Carl,

Get into some sweat lodges, sister. Do a vision quest. Seek ones who can help you connect with what/who you are. Find ways to come to grips with the questions you have, and then the answers will begin to come.

I have made one such attempt. Need more.
According to the Buddhists and new age enlightened ones, the answer is that there is no one.

Nonsense. Which Buddhist and new age enlightened ones say that no one can help another person find out who and what they are?

What answers have you come up with?

A rather flip way to put it. In any case this is a vast subject and I'm not at all sure a public Internet forum is the best place to discuss.

The Laws of cause and effect create karma.

The reply is too cryptic. Why shouldn't the souls move out of their ignorance eventually?

What would cause this? What force would reverse a negative karma or a trend to entropy. Does God save the diseased tree from dying, the baby ocelot from starvation, or prevent a man from failing?

Is there a time constraint?

Every being has its lifespan and its windows of opportunity.
_____________________________________

To Ryan,

When the universe could all be made up of some sort of higher mind. However, it would be a mind that has no direct impact in this world, but merely makes up the environment of the world itself.

Well this would be a kind of deist position, but I think it is untenable. All the best evidence does not point to such a separatist reality. It may be that consciousness is all there is.

What evidence?

And, Ryan is not advocating a God which has created the world and then stepped away from it, at least not as I read it. In any case, this tracks with Gurdjieffian teaching, which is sourced in ancient esoteric tradition. The idea is that the Universe is stepped down into local levels. Who or what administers these local levels is subject to discussion and interpretation.

Who knows, or the other possibility is that this life is just be a fleeting moment of suffering and confusion that ends in a split second as far as the life of the universe is concerned. How do we know for Sure? Do you see the dilemma here?

Why do you emphasize suffering so much? Is that your reality? Do you know some people are enjoying themselves tremendously,

By and large it is a world of suffering for most people. In my day to day interactions I find this to be true. A lot of the happiness is very fleeting and very surface. Look at the levels of addictions. Look at the health and emotional problems. Look at the levels of disconnect between people and their environment and between people and their consciences. Those are not signs of joy.

and I myself have far more joy than I used to and I think it is a matter of elevated consciousness, that slowly has rebuilt my life around a better mindset.

Exactly. But do you see much elevated consciousness out there? I sure don't.

[Iolaus]

Carl,

Me: According to the Buddhists and new age enlightened ones, the answer is that there is no one.

Carl: Nonsense. Which Buddhist and new age enlightened ones say that no one can help another person find out who and what they are?

Oh, no, I meant that they say there is no one home. So no wonder I can't figure out who I am inside - I am no one. You know, Ramana Maharshi was famous for teaching this as a short path to enlightenment: "Ask yourself, Who am I?"

A rather flip way to put it. In any case this is a vast subject and I'm not at all sure a public Internet forum is the best place to discuss.

You could PM me. I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing. Like, "I am a spirit being in a material body" - no doubt true but that isn't what I'm asking. Maybe I don't know what I am asking.

What would cause this? What force would reverse a negative karma or a trend to entropy. Does God save the diseased tree from dying, the baby ocelot from starvation, or prevent a man from failing?

If we are immortal, then there could be very long trajectories of a soul's direction, but probably its return to the divine is inevitable. If we are not immortal, nothing matters anyway.
No, I do not look to a personal God to save things. That's sort of the whole point. The babyish desire to be saved is simply an indication of spiritual immaturity. It is we who have to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves.

What evidence?

And, Ryan is not advocating a God which has created the world and then stepped away from it, at least not as I read it. In any case, this tracks with Gurdjieffian teaching, which is sourced in ancient esoteric tradition. The idea is that the Universe is stepped down into local levels. Who or what administers these local levels is subject to discussion and interpretation.

Now that you ask it, I realize it would be quite an effort to go through the books I've read and my own intuitions. It seems this is the divide between east and west, and Gurdjieff, if what you say is true, is a western man. I don't argue that the universe isn't stepped down, but neither does that mean that God isn't everything.

If that is not what Ryan is arguing, then what is he/you saying?

By and large it is a world of suffering for most people. In my day to day interactions I find this to be true. A lot of the happiness is very fleeting and very surface. Look at the levels of addictions. Look at the health and emotional problems. Look at the levels of disconnect between people and their environment and between people and their consciences. Those are not signs of joy.

Simultaneously with the above, is a deeper reality, in which people are loving and cooperative. If you squint just right, you can see it.

Exactly. But do you see much elevated consciousness out there? I sure don't.

It depends on who you talk to. I see more and more of it.

[Carl G]

It all sounds fine, and nothing to really comment on.

[Cory Duchesne]

Iolous: What answers have you come up with?

Carl: A rather flip way to put it. In any case this is a vast subject and I'm not at all sure a public Internet forum is the best place to discuss.

Yeah, a forum dedicated to discussing truth, genius and spiritual matters is no place for talking about such a vast subject.

[Alex Jacob]

The Juggler's Song
____________________________________________________

"The doctor brews potions and pills
To open his own front door
And the locksmith makes strong bolts
To bar his gates to every new breeze that blows".

Iolaus wrote:

"So what happened was that I had an amazing experience in which a supremely benevolent force took me by the hand and in a matter of hours healed me both psychically and physically and left me high for a week. I love that Being!"

The Walking Dead, the thinking writing and opining Dead, seem to me sometimes to miss one essential piece: that this crazy sphere, place, loka where we are located offers to the Initiate, because it exists at the core, in the essence of the place itself, the so-longed for redemption, the underlying subliminal knowledge of ultimate salvation. I keep telling them: Relax! It's okay! Life is eternal and you are an indivisible part of it! From now on, it is all about A Road Going Home. Soon, you'll feel a mysterious effervescent bubbling from the springs of your own self!

But do they listen to me? ;-)

That site you linked to above is pretty cool, I bookmarked it and plan to look it over when I am back on your Earth.

In the meantime: The Half Remarkable Question

This is a repeat, but only through repetition does the Initiate make the material his own:

The Circle Is Unbroken

The Queen of Love

Lyrics

"The snow is on the hills of my heart
And to speak is to die
The men at arms do seek to mark me
And the monks raise hue and cry...

Seek me in vain on Golgotha
Or in fear's hollow
For the way I take today
Only the true may follow".

[samadhi]

Diebert,

sam: The ego loves [moral judgments] and uses them to separate itself from and elevate itself over others.

Diebert: Ego is what ego does and certainly a healthy ego as figurative artifact of identifying and distinguishing, cannot help but to separate, judge morally and believe to excel, thrusting towards power - which means elevation basically.

As long as one is identified with the ego and such an ego requires hierarchical standards by which its "superiority" can be mearsured, sure, judging others will appear to be a reasonable thing to do.

Why so distrusting of a healthy ego, not recognizing its potential, its necessity for creating the courage, character and direction needed to deal with truth? Truth which brings consciousness. Consciousness which could be said to bring the only true liberation.

Why do you associate judging others with a healthy ego? A healthy ego recognizes its own limitations without the need to impose artificial ones on others. Moral superiority is not an objective condition but a superimposed one by which egos can subjectively create their hierarchies. Courage and character are not a result of judging others, in fact one is usually seeking to usurp them by imposing judgments. A false sense of courage and character are thus acquired and wielded to the detriment of others. Moral judgments in fact reflect unconsciousness in that one is avoiding self-examination of motives one has access to in favor of a blind examination of motives one has no access to.

[samadhi]

Ryan,

sam: Wisdom doesn't require moral judgment of others. Confidence comes from knowing oneself, cowardice comes from denigrating others.

Ryan: Okay, so it is acceptable to judge yourself?

Acceptable? Is it acceptable to beat yourself on the head with a hammer? I guess so but why would you want to?

But not others? hmm, okay..., So let me get this straight, it is okay for me to become wise through being critical of myself, but as soon as I’m critical of someone else, then I’m an arrogant egoist? Is that how it goes?

No, actually, it doesn't. But if you want to judge yourself, who am I to say, don't do it? But the results are predictable.

So every spiritual seeker must be his own judge and totally refrain from judging others?

You seem to be conflating utilitarian judgments ("if I do this, then this is the result") with moral ones ("if I do this, then I am a good/bad person"). Why do you prefer moral judgments to utilitarian ones?

That doesn’t make any sense. You know what I think happened to you Sam: too many late-night pajama party bible-reading sessions…

You don't understand the difference between utilitarian and moral judgments and you want to make that my problem. Typical Ryan thinking.

You see, where you and I fundamentally disagree is that you believe that judging yourself and judging others are too totally different activities, and one is desirable, while the other is not, while I maintain that judging yourself and judging others is the SAME activity, and it leads to the SAME outcome, namely WISDOM.

See above, oh clueless one.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

As long as one is identified with the ego and such an ego requires hierarchical standards by which its "superiority" can be mearsured, sure, judging others will appear to be a reasonable thing to do.

The ego doesn't need anything in any realistic sense. You talk as if you really believe in some entity being capable of wants like that. It's better to say that hierarchical standards, ordering is what it's part of, like a shadow. Ordering subjectively our experiences including the experience of itself - thereby also measuring up how [the experience of] others are ordering and being ordered, quality wise.

Why do you associate judging others with a healthy ego?

Because healthy judging implies a well formed ego construct [self-evaluation] of some kind.

A healthy ego recognizes its own limitations without the need to impose artificial ones on others.

The moment it recognizes limitation it's as well its own as well as any others - which are found being the same process after all.

Moral judgments in fact reflect unconsciousness in that one is avoiding self-examination of motives one has access to in favor of a blind examination of motives one has no access to.

Alright, then start with self-examination of motives one has access to! It are still judgments, including moral judgments and would invalidate your statement above that they'd necessarily unconscious.

You're just rehashing here the "let the one without sin throw the first stone" principle. And I guess one could say that people who have not thoroughly examined themselves should perhaps not speak anything at all. What could they ever contribute in a spiritual sense? The reality is of course that we all do speak up, we project, we judge and it all will be truthfully to the extent oneself is truly known. This doesn't mean nobody can ever speak, project and judge - in other words: interact as human being.

Covering up this process, even smothering it, under the guise of non-judgmentalism makes no sense to me.

[samadhi]

Diebert,

sam: As long as one is identified with the ego and such an ego requires hierarchical standards by which its "superiority" can be mearsured, sure, judging others will appear to be a reasonable thing to do.

Diebert: The ego doesn't need anything in any realistic sense.

We're not talking in absolutes here. From that standpoint, no one needs anything. The ego however requires constant feeding to keep up appearances. It likes to know where it stands in relation to others. Thus it wields its judgments and measures accordingly.

You talk as if you really believe in some entity being capable of wants like that.

The ego exists as a matter of experience, denying it doesn't make it disappear, it only makes it clandestine.

It's better to say that hierarchical standards, ordering is what it's part of, like a shadow. Ordering subjectively our experiences including the experience of itself - thereby also measuring up how [the experience of] others are ordering and being ordered, quality wise.

There are many standards by which a hierarchy can be constructed. Moral judgments are the most subjective and the ego likes it that way because, guess what? It gets to set the standards.

sam: Why do you associate judging others with a healthy ego?

Diebert: Because healthy judging implies a well formed ego construct [self-evaluation] of some kind.

Ah, so now you want to talk about "healthy" judgments as opposed to moral judgments. Let me guess, utilitarian?

sam: A healthy ego recognizes its own limitations without the need to impose artificial ones on others.

Diebert: The moment it recognizes limitation it's as well its own as well as any others - which are found being the same process after all.

Not sure what this means.

sam: Moral judgments in fact reflect unconsciousness in that one is avoiding self-examination of motives one has access to in favor of a blind examination of motives one has no access to.

Diebert: Alright, then start with self-examination of motives one has access to! They are still judgments, including moral judgments and would invalidate your statement above that they'd necessarily unconscious.

Hardly. Are you also going to conflate utilitarian judgments with moral judgments? Doesn't anyone here know the difference?

You're just rehashing here the "let the one without sin throw the first stone" principle.

Of course I am! That's the whole point which everyone refuses to look at. Moral judgments help no one and hurt everyone.

And I guess one could say that people who have not thoroughly examined themselves should perhaps not speak anything at all. What could they ever contribute in a spiritual sense? The reality is of course that we all do speak up, we project, we judge and it all will be truthfully to the extent oneself is truly known. This doesn't mean nobody can ever speak, project and judge - in other words: interact as human being.

For the hundredth time, I am not talking about utilitarian judgments. Who has a problem with judging when they want to go to bed? But it is ridiculous to say a moral judgment like it is bad to go to bed after 10 pm is the same as a utilitarian judgment that says I don't get sleepy until 11pm and thus like to go to bed then.

Covering up this process, even smothering it, under the guise of non-judgmentalism makes no sense to me.

I am not covering up anything! Make all the utilitarian judgments you want, just don't moralize about them to others.

[brad walker]

Make all the utilitarian judgments you want, just don't moralize about them to others.

What if I judge moralizing to have utility?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Brad wrote,

What if I judge moralizing to have utility?

Exactly so. Sam doesn’t realize that judging behavior as moral or immoral has a deep utilitarian component because the collective is pushed in a more rational direction, as a result of judgment.

btw, Sam, do you think it is a bad thing when a serial rapist is judged as immoral and unfit for society, and locked up? Doesn’t such a moral judgment have a utilitarian value for the larger collective?

It is the same principle that also applies when I judge romantic relationships as immoral, or delusion in general as immoral, as I see the sort of violence, suicides, and misery that results over the long-term, so it is in humanities best interest, and from a utilitarian standpoint, it makes the most sense for the collective.

Moral Judgments are utilitarian judgments.

[samadhi]

brad,

sam: Make all the utilitarian judgments you want, just don't moralize about them to others.

brad: What if I judge moralizing to have utility?

Then show the utility.



Ryan,

brad: What if I judge moralizing to have utility?

Ryan: Exactly so. Sam doesn’t realize that judging behavior as moral or immoral has a deep utilitarian component because the collective is pushed in a more rational direction, as a result of judgment.

Really? So when someone says you are a bad person for not supporting the war in Iraq, that pushes us in a more rational direction? Why do you say that?

btw, Sam, do you think it is a bad thing when a serial rapist is judged as immoral and unfit for society, and locked up? Doesn’t such a moral judgment have a utilitarian value for the larger collective?

That isn't a moral judgment, it is a utilitarian one. It is utilitarian to lock up someone who harms others, isn't it?

It is the same principle that also applies when I judge romantic relationships as immoral, or delusion in general as immoral, as I see the sort of violence, suicides, and misery that results over the long-term, so it is in humanities best interest, and from a utilitarian standpoint, it makes the most sense for the collective.

But by such a judgment anything can be immoral that you don't approve of. Which is the point. You are judging people based on your personal preferences and disregarding what others find beneficial.

Moral Judgments are utilitarian judgments.

Really? So if I say you are a bad person because you are gay, you're okay with that? And if I want to discriminate against you because you're black, that's fine with you? In Ryan's world, anything goes, as long as Ryan approves ... lol.