Please forgive the sages

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Jamesh
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by Jamesh »

Who spoke that shit, Jimbo?

It is in the intro to Lee Smolin's book "The Life of the Cosmos". I haven't really started reading the book as yet, but he does seem a little more open than many of his ilk.
Smolin has expressed the opinion that quantum mechanics is not a "final theory".

I am convinced that quantum mechanics is not a final theory. I believe this because I have never encountered an interpretation of the present formulation of quantum mechanics that makes sense to me. I have studied most of them in depth and thought hard about them, and in the end I still can't make real sense of quantum theory as it stands
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Jamesh,
I am convinced that quantum mechanics is not a final theory. I believe this because I have never encountered an interpretation of the present formulation of quantum mechanics that makes sense to me. I have studied most of them in depth and thought hard about them, and in the end I still can't make real sense of quantum theory as it stands
What I value about ‘pure reason’ is that it points to the limitation of capturing infinity using the intellect. Satisfying Statements include - every part of reality is broken up by the mind subjectively, and therefore is arbitrary, or every part is composed of an infinite number of smaller parts, and every whole is just one part of an larger infinite whole.

Moreover - The small is neither big nor small. And the big is neither big or small… Basically, there is only an illusion of big and small based on relative observers and relative observing instruments. For instance: if a sentient being could exist as the size of a galaxy, it would perceive a star cluster as a toy to play with, whereas if a sentient being could exist within the quantum world, it could live among zillions of quarks in a cm radius, and it would seem like the size of a city.

Perception of size and distance is dependent on the size of the observer.

Currently our measuring units are still based on the size of the human observer. For instance: units - feet, inch, and yard are derived from measurements on the human body, derived from ancient market places to buy and sell goods. However, in a couple hundred years, we could possibly have intelligent machines, whose sensory absorption units stretch across the entire solar system, and so we will probably adopt new measurement units based on the reach of our best technology at the time.
mansman
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Re: Please forgive your president?

Post by mansman »

brokenhead wrote:
Carl G wrote:I have yet to hear anybody even mention the Iraq War in the last five years in my day to day life. Gas prices double and the U.S. economy is tanking, and nobody talks about the trillions going down the tubes, basically for nothing.
This is a shameful result of the fear the Bush Administration inspires in the populace. He is the quintessential pinhead bully, who envisions himself as Texas-tough, but only because he is surrounded by other knuckle-scraping bullies who have enjoyed the power trip, while Mr. Burns-like Cheyney is content to wield the actual power in the background, as his flagrant contempt for the American public and the rest of the world permits him to enrich himself and his oil-cronies. As the trillions go down the tubes and that dream-like budget surplus which the Administration inherited from the Clinton era evaporates, all it takes is a tiny percentage of that to go into the coffers of the coterie of the Bush-Cheyney power elite to make them unspeakably wealthy. As soon as the reign of terror is over, you will begin to hear people talking again. True to form, Bush has run the country's finances into the ground the same way he ruined businesses he ran as a private citizen, only this time it has cost the lives of thousands of America's best and brightest young brave men and women. I want to see Bin Laden caught and tried before I die, and I want to see Bush and Cheyney and their behind-the-scenes band of political thugs rounded up and tried as the war criminals they are, or tried for something. I want to see the smugness and contempt wiped away and I want to see them pay for the incalculable damage they have done to this nation and its reputation abroad. Nixon suffered humiliation, yet his "high crimes" were petty malfeasance compared what we have seen over the last eight years. More than anything, I want to see them pay.
Goodness, U TWO (CG and BH) really think these men they mainly interested in personal power and wealth, and they ready to sacrifice their own nation economy for it, and lives of thousands of foreigners for it? Is not there many less dangerous ways to get rich? haha

I think you blind if you not see concern your goverment has for American people, that long range plan is to contain maniacs growth on all over small globe in only way that works with insane people- force. If they make some costly mistake along way it only mean there judgment not perfect (like everyone else I know) but not mean heart is not for nation and hole world even.

Admit to yourself your problem is you emotion is to high and blocks your ability to judge these great men acturatly. To do so would be favor for you and your family. any one can see.

Some day truth is better known when safe to reveal to your people, then you think back at strong wrong statement you make against your very own leaders. Ever think maybe if you type not make so much pressure on your faithful servants in goverment they can relax and think more clearly and do better job.
Its easy for average man to say "fuck you then if you really think im so bad fuck you then I will not try so hard as intended, what a bunch of ungrateful motor mouths"
Would not YOU in any position of leadership do best job if people below believe in you and support you?
So blame first YOURSELF if you think gas price sucks, what spoiled people never I see such spoiled people as in USA.
Im sorry but seem you need outside perspective, maybe now you come to your senses and act in way that better situation instead put more nails in coffin. Really, how ridiculous to blame handful of people in democracy where millions partake in actions with this handful of people.
Have you guts to express rage against holy "troops" who act with complete free will to be where they are and want muslims dead even more than your president? Let me see you curse the soldiers WITHOUT any excuses, right now right here you "brave" TWO, let me see you rail against the real killers of muslims and their families, have you the guts?

Now we will see.
- FOREIGNER
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Jamesh
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by Jamesh »

Moreover - The small is neither big nor small. And the big is neither big or small… Basically, there is only an illusion of big and small based on relative observers and relative observing instruments. For instance: if a sentient being could exist as the size of a galaxy, it would perceive a star cluster as a toy to play with, whereas if a sentient being could exist within the quantum world, it could live among zillions of quarks in a cm radius, and it would seem like the size of a city.
I pretty well agree with this, though there are some issues relating to the speed of light, that may prevent consciousness at higher universe levels – but even that is relative in that a billion years of our time could appear to that consciousness as it were mere seconds. I tend to regard things like atoms as sub-universes, and our universe as an atom within a higher level mega-universe (true infinity requires both horizontal and vertical endlessness). I have often wondered if we are destroying zillions of life forms when we split the atom for energy.

The most interesting thing about small (relative to us) is the immense energy or force contained within small things. The smaller one goes, the more power that can be released by the destruction of the patterns that hold the form of the object in place. It is this that signifies the possible correctness of this comment “The small is neither big nor small”. It appears that the smaller a thing is, the greater the amount of expansionary force contained in balance within the object. One must however compare apples with apples, ie one must compare an atom with outcome of the destroyed atom, radiation and light, not an atom with a compound of elements.
brokenhead
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by brokenhead »

mansman wrote:Goodness, U TWO (CG and BH) really think these men they mainly interested in personal power and wealth, and they ready to sacrifice their own nation economy for it, and lives of thousands of foreigners for it? Is not there many less dangerous ways to get rich?
You are naive, mansman. These men do not have to "get" rich. They are already rich. It is the abuse of power aginst which I am complaining. You fail to understand that this grab for money and power is not dangerous to those who pursue it! They are risking other people's lives, and shielding themselves with the mantle of "elected" office. Do you really think they have made the USA safer from attacks abroad and terrorism within? Do you think Dick Cheney has not profited himself and his oil-industry cronies?
I think you blind if you not see concern your goverment has for American people, that long range plan is to contain maniacs growth on all over small globe in only way that works with insane people- force. If they make some costly mistake along way it only mean there judgment not perfect (like everyone else I know) but not mean heart is not for nation and hole world even.
I think you are blind if you do not see the culpability of this administration. I am not saying every government employee is unconcerned for the American public! Where did you get that? I think many within the government - and a good majority of the public - are afraid of the heavy handed tactics the Bush Administration uses to accomplish its goals and stifle oppostion. I think most of our elected legislators do have concern for America and the safety of its people. I think they, and the public, have lent support to the Administration out of good faith. I believe this faith has been betrayed.
Admit to yourself your problem is you emotion is to high and blocks your ability to judge these great men acturatly.

I admit that my concern runs deep. And I believe my ability to judge the men responsible for this invasion and occupation of a sovereign state without just cause is not clouded in the slightest.
Some day truth is better known when safe to reveal to your people, then you think back at strong wrong statement you make against your very own leaders. Ever think maybe if you type not make so much pressure on your faithful servants in goverment they can relax and think more clearly and do better job.
The truth in its entirety is likely to be officially obfuscated for many years to come. And I believe the exact opposite of what you say will transpire: I think when the facts all do come out, those people who supported Bush's foreign policy will see they were mistaken. It is already happening. I think you should wake up.
So blame first YOURSELF if you think gas price sucks, what spoiled people never I see such spoiled people as in USA.
I was not compaining about the gas prices! I was complaining about the destruction of another nation's infrastructure. And yes, many Americans are spoiled when it comes to gas prices, myself included. That's why I don't complain about them. Really, mansman, you have a narrow, prejudiced view of Americans. We are not all the same. We don't all think alike.
Im sorry but seem you need outside perspective, maybe now you come to your senses and act in way that better situation instead put more nails in coffin. Really, how ridiculous to blame handful of people in democracy where millions partake in actions with this handful of people.
You seem to want to blame all Americans for the foreign policy of the American government, yet criticize us when we oppose it. Isn't that ridiculous? Maybe your "outside perspective" is a limited one and poorly thought-out. It rather speaks of your prejudice against Americans in general. If non-Americans such as yourself have a dim view of America, it is precisely because we follow our leaders too blindly.

If the Bush Administration invaded Iraq on faulty intelligence, then it is their responsibility to contain the damage that resulted. Some way, somehow, when it became clear that Iraq was in no way a military threat to the United States, the occupation process should have been reversed. It is not necessary to admit that a mistake was made. They have access to the best spin doctors in the world. Call it whatever you want. Just fix the mistake. It is shameful to maintain this illegal and unwarranted occupation at the expense of human lives, both Iraqi and American. You, mansman, are conceding way too much to those in power in Washington.

And you are ignorant of how "democracy" works. There is no such thing, first of all. Our leaders are chosen by a power elite, and then voted on. The majority of Americans do not usually participate in the voting, so we accept a sort of "quorum" result. And in Bush's case, the majority of the eloctorate that did vote voted for the other guy. Perhaps you were unaware of that.

You seem like you have a chip on your shoulder against American that is so emotional, you want to somehow exonerate its leaders so you can more clearly hate its citizens. You do not understand who is responsible for the US and British rape of Iraq.
Have you guts to express rage against holy "troops" who act with complete free will to be where they are and want muslims dead even more than your president? Let me see you curse the soldiers WITHOUT any excuses, right now right here you "brave" TWO, let me see you rail against the real killers of muslims and their families, have you the guts?
What "holy troops" are you talking about? American troops? Are you insane? You think because this is a volunteer army that US troops have "complete free will" in if and where they are deployed? To most American servicemen, this is a job. Their job is to follow their orders when they receive them. These men and women do not want to ship out and leave their families behind. How many US servicemen do you know, have you ever known? These brave young people signed on to serve their country, they get minimally compensated for it, and they place themselves in danger when they are ordered to do so. Their orders come from their superiors. The commander-in-chief is a fucking civilian, asshole! It is George W. Bush, the leader you are defending and whose responsibility every Muslim death abroad due to US military action it ultimately is.

I do not know where you are from, but if you were from this country, you would understand the deep loyalty and support Americans have for their soldiers. These are our sons and daughters. These are parents of young children. They neither make US policy nor have the power to circumvent it.
Now we will see
See what, exactly? If I and other Americans are to blame for the mess that is US foreign policy, it is not because we criticized our leaders too much, but too little. Are you so blind with anti-US bigotry and hatred, that you cannot see that? If so, you opinion is worth nothing.
brokenhead
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by brokenhead »

I am convinced that quantum mechanics is not a final theory. I believe this because I have never encountered an interpretation of the present formulation of quantum mechanics that makes sense to me. I have studied most of them in depth and thought hard about them, and in the end I still can't make real sense of quantum theory as it stands
Is this quote from Lee Smolin, Jamesh?

It is often said that if you can make sense of quantum theory, then you do not truly understand it. It was this discomfort with QM that made me veer away from particle physics as a life's pursuit, although I have tried to keep current with recent findings.
Jamesh wrote:The smaller one goes, the more power that can be released by the destruction of the patterns that hold the form of the object in place.
I see where you are going with this, but it is not quite accurate. The strong nuclear force is orders of magnitude stronger than the large-scale force of gravitation, but only at close range. If you are speaking of splitting the atom, that is, converting some of the mass of a heavy atom into a lighter atom and released energy, that energy is indeed enormous. But it is proportional to the amount of matter so converted, i.e., the smaller amount of matter you use, the smaller the release of atomic energy.
Iolaus
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by Iolaus »

I do not know where you are from, but if you were from this country, you would understand the deep loyalty and support Americans have for their soldiers. These are our sons and daughters. These are parents of young children. They neither make US policy nor have the power to circumvent it.
Nonetheless, there is a difference between a person who has volunteered to join an army, albeit they may have hoped not to see war, versus the Iraqi civilians who have no choice about the bombs raining down on them. It's not that I don't care about Americans, or soldiers, or 3,000 dead in New York, but what about the numbers, man?

Like, we look at history and we talk about terrible regimes, massacres, genocides. We look in horror at the actions of Nazi Germany. But the number of dead in Vietnam on the Vietnamese side, women, children, old people, and soldiers, is about 100 to one on the American side, all soldiers.

Not to mention the eco-destruction.

In Iraq, in the first war, back in '91, my son was in 5th grade, and he came running home one day in great excitement, obviously telling me something he had just heard at school, that there were 20,000 Iraqi soldiers dead and we had lost something like, maybe 12.

The sorrow of it, the monstrous murderousness of it, it just hit me and I started to cry. Not the reaction my son expected.

When does a war not deserve to be called a war but a massacre? What is the proper name for it when one side loses at a rate of 100 to 1, or 1,000 to 1, and the side with all the deaths includes children and villagers and mothers, and farm animals, and buildings, and museums...and when radioactive waste is lying all around, raising cancer rates and leukemias?

At what point to we become ashamed? Where is the line?
Truth is a pathless land.
brokenhead
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by brokenhead »

Iolaus wrote:
I do not know where you are from, but if you were from this country, you would understand the deep loyalty and support Americans have for their soldiers. These are our sons and daughters. These are parents of young children. They neither make US policy nor have the power to circumvent it.
Nonetheless, there is a difference between a person who has volunteered to join an army, albeit they may have hoped not to see war, versus the Iraqi civilians who have no choice about the bombs raining down on them. It's not that I don't care about Americans, or soldiers, or 3,000 dead in New York, but what about the numbers, man?

Like, we look at history and we talk about terrible regimes, massacres, genocides. We look in horror at the actions of Nazi Germany. But the number of dead in Vietnam on the Vietnamese side, women, children, old people, and soldiers, is about 100 to one on the American side, all soldiers.

Not to mention the eco-destruction.

In Iraq, in the first war, back in '91, my son was in 5th grade, and he came running home one day in great excitement, obviously telling me something he had just heard at school, that there were 20,000 Iraqi soldiers dead and we had lost something like, maybe 12.

The sorrow of it, the monstrous murderousness of it, it just hit me and I started to cry. Not the reaction my son expected.

When does a war not deserve to be called a war but a massacre? What is the proper name for it when one side loses at a rate of 100 to 1, or 1,000 to 1, and the side with all the deaths includes children and villagers and mothers, and farm animals, and buildings, and museums...and when radioactive waste is lying all around, raising cancer rates and leukemias?

At what point to we become ashamed? Where is the line?
Iolaus, you are preaching to the choir on this one. But do not forget that in the Vietnam war, a good many of the soldiers were drafted. I am looking at the numbers.

What is the difference you see between the person who has volunteered to join an army and the Iraqi civilian? Are you suggesting that each and every US soldier refuse to carry out orders if it involves doing violence to someone? My feeling is that to a man, each and every US soldier stationed in Iraq would gladly welcome the chance to come home.
brokenhead
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by brokenhead »

At what point do we become ashamed?
I already am. I thought that at least was clear.
Iolaus
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by Iolaus »

Iolaus, you are preaching to the choir on this one. But do not forget that in the Vietnam war, a good many of the soldiers were drafted. I am looking at the numbers.

What is the difference you see between the person who has volunteered to join an army and the Iraqi civilian? Are you suggesting that each and every US soldier refuse to carry out orders if it involves doing violence to someone? My feeling is that to a man, each and every US soldier stationed in Iraq would gladly welcome the chance to come home.
Yes, I do keep in mind that many were drafted, so they are less culpable. But they did commit terrible sins. They dropped napalm on healthy jungles, and on villages. Some of them reaped the benefits of that to their own persons - another reason I would not be a soldier since our military uses them as guinea pigs with radiation and chemicals and vaccinations.

Are you saying you don't see a difference between an US soldier and an 8-year-old Iraqi kid? A family into whose house a bomb designed to explode widely kills indiscriminately?

Of course, if each and every soldier did refuse, that would be the only safe way to strike. And remember, there are a lot of mercenaries over there, run by corporations and out of the jurisdiction of any laws. Your questions imply that there isn't anything we can do, and I certainly often feel that way, but wouldn't it be nice for humanity to stop being sitting ducks for every oppressive regime that comes along? Two armed guards can herd hundreds of prisoners to their doom.

I'm not saying what anyone should do or that there are easy answers to these questions, but that does not make us innocent as a nation, nor the individuals who signed up. My sister told her son a few years ago, when he was a little big for his britches, graduating high school and also living in a very conservative place, that if he joined the army she would never speak to him as long as she lived.

Pretty harsh. I thought so. I could never say that to my son, but neither did I have any doubt that he would avoid the army in any way possible.
Truth is a pathless land.
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tek0
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Re: Please forgive the sages

Post by tek0 »

Iolaus wrote:
Iolaus, you are preaching to the choir on this one. But do not forget that in the Vietnam war, a good many of the soldiers were drafted. I am looking at the numbers.

What is the difference you see between the person who has volunteered to join an army and the Iraqi civilian? Are you suggesting that each and every US soldier refuse to carry out orders if it involves doing violence to someone? My feeling is that to a man, each and every US soldier stationed in Iraq would gladly welcome the chance to come home.
Yes, I do keep in mind that many were drafted, so they are less culpable. But they did commit terrible sins. They dropped napalm on healthy jungles, and on villages. Some of them reaped the benefits of that to their own persons - another reason I would not be a soldier since our military uses them as guinea pigs with radiation and chemicals and vaccinations.

Are you saying you don't see a difference between an US soldier and an 8-year-old Iraqi kid? A family into whose house a bomb designed to explode widely kills indiscriminately?

Of course, if each and every soldier did refuse, that would be the only safe way to strike. And remember, there are a lot of mercenaries over there, run by corporations and out of the jurisdiction of any laws. Your questions imply that there isn't anything we can do, and I certainly often feel that way, but wouldn't it be nice for humanity to stop being sitting ducks for every oppressive regime that comes along? Two armed guards can herd hundreds of prisoners to their doom.

I'm not saying what anyone should do or that there are easy answers to these questions, but that does not make us innocent as a nation, nor the individuals who signed up. My sister told her son a few years ago, when he was a little big for his britches, graduating high school and also living in a very conservative place, that if he joined the army she would never speak to him as long as she lived.

Pretty harsh. I thought so. I could never say that to my son, but neither did I have any doubt that he would avoid the army in any way possible.


Keep wishing champ and us side line fucks will keep our race racing for that seat.


Someone has to do it and yet our rank entitles us to technology in meta-materials that bang the elites best AI together to evade us....

Our technolgy will grow and their wastefull ideolgies will only server a slow death of resistance that quite frankly is as predictable as the wind.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_ruSmFFdAY
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