GENIUS FORUMS

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samadhi wrote:Cory,

Cory: Attachment is denigrated by spiritual teachings because spiritual teachings denigrate hatred. To be against one is to be against the other. As Brian pointed out, attachment is a condition where you hate the conditions that oppose the conditions you love.

sam: Spirituality is not about denigrating anything.

Cory: Really? That seems to contradict what you say later:

You can still value someone for who they are while standing firmly against behavior that harms others.

What's the difference between denigrating something or someone and 'standing firmly against' something or someone?

Denigration implies condemnation. Standing against harmful behavior is not about condemning anyone. It is about opposing harm to others. People who harm others do not deserve our condemnation but our support for changing their behavior.

What if they don't want support? What if they don't want to change their behavior, but instead want to continue killing people for excitement?

Cory: An interesting question to explore might be; why do spiritual teachers have a problem with hatred?

sam: Spiritual teachers don't.

Cory: Keep in mind, you are all in favor of 'standing firmly against' certain behaviors - which would imply you have a problem with certain behaviors.

Sure. No one supports harmful behavior.

Huh? Entire organizations are formed in the name of harming others. E.g., klu klux klan, Hezbolah, US Military, etc.

Sam wrote: [standing firmly against certain behaviors] doesn't mean if someone wants to hate, they can't hate.

Isn't it apt to use force to stop a serial killer? If someone wants to kill, should they be free to kill?

They will hate no matter what you say to them if that's what they want to do. That's their choice. Overcoming hatred isn't about saying, "don't hate anyone." First become conscious of your hatred. Without being conscious, your actions are outside of your control. When you become conscious, then you get a choice. Is hating someone what you really want do? Is it the best way to get what you want?

Have you thought about a career in dealing with sociopaths?

sam: Hatred also has consequences which most people want to avoid so as a social ideal, trying to limit its effect can be of use.

Cory: So why is unconditional love important, Sam?

Unconditional love is not about ego. It is not important to the ego.

Who is it important to?

Cory: Such a qualm appears to be the consequence of valuing rationality and truth. After all, to be consumed by hatred is an irrational, frightened reaction.

sam: Hatred's effects are obvious. Hating hatred however remains problematic.

Cory: Ok Sam, so in that sentence you admit there is a problem.

But earlier you write: Cory: why do spiritual teachers have a problem with hatred?

sam: Spiritual teachers don't.

Isn't hating hatred just as 'problematic' as hatred?

That was exactly my point. That's why spiritual teachers don't have a problem with hatred. Spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious,

Why is 'becoming more conscious' important?

Cory: I think it's necessary to make a distinction between acceptance and allowance. I'm not at all in favor of allowing a serial killers preferred experience to repeat continually. Force is necessary to detain him, put him behind bars, and study him scientifically (imo, debilitating psychological conditions are a goldmine for scientists). [

Sam: Accepting someone's experience does not mean giving them carte blanche to act. You can accept a serial killer's experience when you know that that person was a victim of child abuse.

Most people who experience child abuse don't grow up to be serial killers, and many serial killers haven't experienced any child abuse.

Accepting that doesn't mean you let them kill. It means you treat them. People aren't born killers. And if you want to argue about those who seem to be, there is always mental illness.

I believe all behavior is caused. In other words, I don't believe in free will.

Cory,

Cory: What's the difference between denigrating something or someone and 'standing firmly against' something or someone?

sam: Denigration implies condemnation. Standing against harmful behavior is not about condemning anyone. It is about opposing harm to others. People who harm others do not deserve our condemnation but our support for changing their behavior.

Cory: What if they don't want support? What if they don't want to change their behavior, but instead want to continue killing people for excitement?

Why did you cut off the end of my response? I already said: If they don't want to change their behavior, there is always prison, where they can be supported as well.

Cory: An interesting question to explore might be; why do spiritual teachers have a problem with hatred?

sam: Spiritual teachers don't.

Cory: Keep in mind, you are all in favor of 'standing firmly against' certain behaviors - which would imply you have a problem with certain behaviors.

sam: Sure. No one supports harmful behavior.

Cory: Huh? Entire organizations are formed in the name of harming others. E.g., klu klux klan, Hezbolah, US Military, etc.

Well, that's another discussion. I was referring to criminal behavior within a society.

sam: [standing firmly against certain behaviors] doesn't mean if someone wants to hate, they can't hate.

Cory: Isn't it apt to use force to stop a serial killer? If someone wants to kill, should they be free to kill?

Hating and acting criminally are two different things. You can't stop the former but you can certainly deter the latter.

sam: They will hate no matter what you say to them if that's what they want to do. That's their choice. Overcoming hatred isn't about saying, "don't hate anyone." First become conscious of your hatred. Without being conscious, your actions are outside of your control. When you become conscious, then you get a choice. Is hating someone what you really want do? Is it the best way to get what you want?

Cory: Have you thought about a career in dealing with sociopaths?

lol ...

sam: Unconditional love is not about ego. It is not important to the ego.

Cory: Who is it important to?

It isn't important to anyone, it is a byproduct of realization.

Cory: Isn't hating hatred just as 'problematic' as hatred?

sam: That was exactly my point. That's why spiritual teachers don't have a problem with hatred. Spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious,

Cory: Why is 'becoming more conscious' important?

Who is saying it's important? I said spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious. If you don't think that is important, then don't for look for spiritual teaching. It's not my job or anyone else's to convince you what is important to you.

Cory: I think it's necessary to make a distinction between acceptance and allowance. I'm not at all in favor of allowing a serial killers preferred experience to repeat continually. Force is necessary to detain him, put him behind bars, and study him scientifically (imo, debilitating psychological conditions are a goldmine for scientists). [

Sam: Accepting someone's experience does not mean giving them carte blanche to act. You can accept a serial killer's experience when you know that that person was a victim of child abuse.

Cory: Most people who experience child abuse don't grow up to be serial killers, and many serial killers haven't experienced any child abuse.

It was an example. Many abusers have themselves been abused. And like I said, there is always mental illness.

sam: Accepting that doesn't mean you let them kill. It means you treat them. People aren't born killers. And if you want to argue about those who seem to be, there is always mental illness.

Cory: I believe all behavior is caused. In other words, I don't believe in free will.

So what? You will act as you see fit in any case.

Sam,

Sam: Denigration implies condemnation. Standing against harmful behavior is not about condemning anyone. It is about opposing harm to others. People who harm others do not deserve our condemnation but our support for changing their behavior.

Cory: What if they don't want support? What if they don't want to change their behavior, but instead want to continue killing people for excitement?

Sam: I already said: If they don't want to change their behavior, there is always prison, where they can be supported as well.

What if they don't want such support? What if they want to continue living with the freedom to do whatever they want?

Cory: An interesting question to explore might be; why do spiritual teachers have a problem with hatred?

sam: Spiritual teachers don't.

Cory: Keep in mind, you are all in favor of 'standing firmly against' certain behaviors - which would imply you have a problem with certain behaviors.

sam: Sure. No one supports harmful behavior.

Cory: Huh? Entire organizations are formed in the name of harming others. E.g., klu klux klan, Hezbolah, US Military, etc.

Well, that's another discussion. I was referring to criminal behavior within a society.

Yes you were. The question I'm interested in is why general folk don't support such harmful behavior.

sam: Unconditional love is not about ego. It is not important to the ego.

Cory: Who is it important to?

It isn't important to anyone, it is a byproduct of realization.

Are you saying that in your daily life one thing is no more important than another thing?

Cory: Isn't hating hatred just as 'problematic' as hatred?

Sam: That was exactly my point. That's why spiritual teachers don't have a problem with hatred. Spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious,

Cory: Why is 'becoming more conscious' important?

Who is saying it's important? I said spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious.

Are you saying that somethings in your life don't take priority over (more important than) other things?

Cory,

Cory: What if they don't want support? What if they don't want to change their behavior, but instead want to continue killing people for excitement?

Sam: I already said: If they don't want to change their behavior, there is always prison, where they can be supported as well.

Cory: What if they don't want such support? What if they want to continue living with the freedom to do whatever they want?

In a civil society there are standards of behavior. People either conform to them or suffer the consequences.

sam: No one supports harmful behavior.

Cory: Huh? Entire organizations are formed in the name of harming others. E.g., klu klux klan, Hezbolah, US Military, etc.

sam: Well, that's another discussion. I was referring to criminal behavior within a society.

Cory: Yes you were. The question I'm interested in is why general folk don't support such harmful behavior.

Why people don't support criminal behavior? Because no one likes being harmed, I imagine.

sam: Unconditional love is not about ego. It is not important to the ego.

Cory: Who is it important to?

sam: It isn't important to anyone, it is a byproduct of realization.

Cory: Are you saying that in your daily life one thing is no more important than another thing?

No. What makes you jump to that conclusion?

Cory: Why is 'becoming more conscious' important?

sam: Who is saying it's important? I said spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious.

Cory: Are you saying that some things in your life don't take priority over (more important than) other things?

No, I am not saying that. Your question implied that I was saying it should be important to you. I would never presume to tell you what is important for you. If your question was meant to inquire why it is important to me, the answer is because the unconscious state creates pain and the conscious state removes it.

sam: Unconditional love is not about ego. It is not important to the ego.

Cory: Who is it important to?

sam: It isn't important to anyone, it is a byproduct of realization.

Cory: Are you saying that in your daily life one thing is no more important than another thing?

Sam: No. What makes you jump to that conclusion?

You said that unconditional love is not important to anyone. How do you know it's not important to me?

Cory: Why is 'becoming more conscious' important?

sam: Who is saying it's important? I said spiritual teaching is about helping people become more conscious.

Cory: Are you saying that some things in your life don't take priority over (more important than) other things?

Sam: No, I am not saying that. Your question implied that I was saying it should be important to you.

It wasn't my intention to imply that.

I would never presume to tell you what is important for you. If your question was meant to inquire why it is important to me, the answer is because the unconscious state creates pain and the conscious state removes it.

I see. Fair enough.

Cory,

You said that unconditional love is not important to anyone. How do you know it's not important to me?

I thought we were speaking in general terms. Obviously I don't know what's important to each individual on the planet. My reply was meant to indicate that it would be foolish to teach unconditional love as some kind of dogma to aspire to. Unconditional love is not about egos loving everyone. It arises out of realization, it does not lead to it.